Please help...need advice on GPA/postbacc

I wrote a post earlier, but maybe it was too long. Here's a short version of it. If you want the full version, check out my other post "Do I have a shot?"

1) I'm 26
2) My overall gpa is 2.88. Math/science is 2.6. But I'm confident that if I do a post bacc, I can get a 3.9-4.0.
3) I have an MBA (3.7 gpa).
4) I have decent amount of extracurricular (clinic volunteer, outreach in mexico and africa, 2-3 years research experience).

Question
Is one full year at an informal post bacc enough to get me into med school? By informal, I mean that I would just be taking upper div undergrad classes through UCLA or UCI extension. I applied to post bacc, but didn't get into most of them.

If you have a similar situation, please share your experience with me. Thank you very much.

letmein145 said:

I wrote a post earlier, but maybe it was too long. Here's a short version of it. If you want the full version, check out my other post "Do I have a shot?"

1) I'm 26
2) My overall gpa is 2.88. Math/science is 2.6. But I'm confident that if I do a post bacc, I can get a 3.9-4.0.
3) I have an MBA (3.7 gpa).
4) I have decent amount of extracurricular (clinic volunteer, outreach in mexico and africa, 2-3 years research experience).

Question
Is one full year at an informal post bacc enough to get me into med school? By informal, I mean that I would just be taking upper div undergrad classes through UCLA or UCI extension. I applied to post bacc, but didn't get into most of them.

If you have a similar situation, please share your experience with me. Thank you very much.

Click to expand...

Your problem is going to be your low undergrad GPA. Even with a year of post bacc at 4.0, you are still going to low overall. It's probably going to take more than a year of informal post bacc at 4.0 to get you into a competitive range for undergrad GPA.

letmein145 said:

I wrote a post earlier, but maybe it was too long. Here's a short version of it. If you want the full version, check out my other post "Do I have a shot?"

1) I'm 26
2) My overall gpa is 2.88. Math/science is 2.6. But I'm confident that if I do a post bacc, I can get a 3.9-4.0.
3) I have an MBA (3.7 gpa).
4) I have decent amount of extracurricular (clinic volunteer, outreach in mexico and africa, 2-3 years research experience).

Question
Is one full year at an informal post bacc enough to get me into med school? By informal, I mean that I would just be taking upper div undergrad classes through UCLA or UCI extension. I applied to post bacc, but didn't get into most of them.

If you have a similar situation, please share your experience with me. Thank you very much.

Click to expand...

As always I agree with njbmd. Going to take a lot more work than than, and you are in CA so a <3.0 GPA tends to get you screened out during the primary application. The UC's tend to screen out a GPA of <3.0-3.2 and an MCAT of 24-26. However do the math, will 1 year of post-bacc, even at 4.0 get you up to at least an overall GPA of 3.0? Even then, what will your science GPA look like? Ultimately its a numbers game. There's a plethora of other students that have good numbers in addition to the extracurriculars that you have.

My overall undergrad GPA was a 2.65 from a UC. Did post-bacc, and now doing a PhD program where I have pulled up my GPA to a 2.8ish. My graduate GPA is a 4.0 and includes med school level classes, and grad school classes taken at UC Davis School of Medicine. I also took undergrad classes as a PhD student, hence being able to boost my undergrad GPA. My PhD thesis, here at UC Davis is based on a clinical trial, therefore my research uses real patients to see if an invasive diagnostic method works. I'm on my 7th year of research since undergrad, and have 27 publications (first/second author for journals, book chapters, etc) with 2 currently submitted. I've done clinical/volunteer work locally and more recently internationally for the past 7 years as well. I've worked for the military, and taught grade school. My MCAT score in 2003 was a 36 (i have to retake it for obvious reasons). The irony is, despite all of these seemingly "good" things, I'll most likely be shut out of most med schools due to my GPA. Therefore I'm going to continue to take undergrad classes as a PhD student while finishing my dissertation. I have already advanced to candidacy, and my friends think i'm nuts for still taking classes, but thats what it will take to get my GPA up and past a 3.0.

The main motivating factor that keeps me on this path is based on my talk with our director of admissions. He told me that the my GPA was horrible, and won't cut it at UCD which essentially implies ALL UC's (or even all CA schools). Therefore, I went this PhD route for cost reasons, and the fact that I enjoy research. I figure that 4 additional years of med school classes, grad school classes, and mostly upper division undergrad classes will (1) boost my overall GPA, and (2) show SIGNIFICANT evidence of improvement when coupled to a good MCAT score and 9 years (when I apply) of extracurriculars. So yea thats something to think about. The other irony is that despite all this work, there's never any guarantee either😉. Therefore the take home message is, its going to take a lot of work to overcome the hole you dug yourself. The take home messag is that a low undergrad GPA is quite possibly the worst thing to deal with short of being a convicted felon in this med school application game. It takes a great deal of time, effort and money to overcome. Unlike the MCAT, where you can just practice practice and then retake it again, every bad grade you get weighs you down forever. As stated, it behooves you to get an overall undergrad GPA of 3.0 or more to get a secondary application. However a secondary doesn't guarantee interview, and an interview doesn't guarantee admissions. So the higher your GPA with respect to your current situation, the better your chances are as you move up the application hierachy. Good luck!

Echo sentiments. I got my MBA while working full time and then went back to school full time for pre reqs. GPA was like 2.5 from undergrad. Right now its just shy of a 2.9 for AACOMAS and 2.75 if I were to apply to AMCAS (I'm not). I'm doing a post-bacc this year with grad level classes while I apply. Wish I could do an SMP but I have geographic restrictions. With your grades you will most likely have to do the post-bacc undergrad work as well as a supplement with some graduate work. I took 2 years of undergrad science classes to boost my gpa and now taking about 30 credits of graduate work. Applications are a crap shoot sometimes. With a strong MCAT and good LORs/EC you have a chance. Also depends on what schools you are looking at. Since I'm only applying osteopathic I feel I have a better chance getting my foot in the door. Best advice, make a plan to get your gpa 3.0+ and stick to it. Find a SMP and do it. Then apply (or apply during SMP).

letmein145 said:

I wrote a post earlier, but maybe it was too long. Here's a short version of it. If you want the full version, check out my other post "Do I have a shot?"

1) I'm 26
2) My overall gpa is 2.88. Math/science is 2.6. But I'm confident that if I do a post bacc, I can get a 3.9-4.0.
3) I have an MBA (3.7 gpa).
4) I have decent amount of extracurricular (clinic volunteer, outreach in mexico and africa, 2-3 years research experience).

Question
Is one full year at an informal post bacc enough to get me into med school? By informal, I mean that I would just be taking upper div undergrad classes through UCLA or UCI extension. I applied to post bacc, but didn't get into most of them.

If you have a similar situation, please share your experience with me. Thank you very much.

Click to expand...

Good advice on this thread...one year post bacc, even if you go full time, not nearly enough even at 4.0, and that goal might be a stretch for you based on your past record...MBA is neutral - neither helps or hurts...SMP might be your best bet, otherwise you could spend the next 3 years in an "informal post bac" barely inching up your GPA, leaving you where?...you should invest in an MCAT prep course and bust your butt to get a good (30+) score...

How many of the science pre reqs have you taken? In other words, what makes up your poor BCPM now? Any Cs or worse in the pre-reqs? Or are these math courses?

Set up a spreadsheet and figure out how many hours of A you need to get your overall GPA to, say, 3.2, and your BCPM to, say, 3.3...come back and let us know the #...

First of all, thank you very much for taking so much time to answer my question. Let me get back to you on the numbers, but real quick...this may be a stupid question, but what's an SMP?

letmein145 said:

First of all, thank you very much for taking so much time to answer my question. Let me get back to you on the numbers, but real quick...this may be a stupid question, but what's an SMP?

Click to expand...

An SMP is a particular kind of post bacc program, a "Special Masters Program" designed to let a student demonstrate the capacity to take graduate/MD level classes (often alongside med students). It is used to counter a less than stellar UG GPA, particularly when the student has already taken several of the pre reqs (and did not do a stellar job on them). Some SMPs have linkages to medical schools. Some SMPs are one year, some 2 years, and some have thesis requirements, so shop carefully...

SMP grades accumulate as graduate level grades and thus do not help raise a low UG GPA typically raised through a formal or informal post bacc program at a college. Your UG GPA is too low for medical school, and I am not sure that simply doing really well in an SMP would be sufficient for you - my guess is that your first line of attack should be to elevate your UG GPA, and then maybe look into an SMP...not really sure about this...but perhaps an SMP with a linkage is your best bet (but your low UG GPA may keep you out of these programs, too, so best to ask questions)...didn't you already get shut out at some post bac programs? These programs will only admit students who have a reasonable shot at success, and my guess is that your low GPA is holding you back from these programs...

SMP = special masters program. Usually a program that lets you take graduate level classes for a degree in one or two years, often allowing you to take a few medical school classes (but not all). If you check the post-bacc forum, check out the FAQ's there.

postbacker said:

An SMP is a particular kind of post bacc program, a "Special Masters Program" designed to let a student demonstrate the capacity to take graduate/MD level classes (often alongside med students). It is used to counter a less than stellar UG GPA, particularly when the student has already taken several of the pre reqs (and did not do a stellar job on them). Some SMPs have linkages to medical schools. Some SMPs are one year, some 2 years, and some have thesis requirements, so shop carefully...

SMP grades accumulate as graduate level grades and thus do not help raise a low UG GPA typically raised through a formal or informal post bacc program at a college. Your UG GPA is too low for medical school, and I am not sure that simply doing really well in an SMP would be sufficient for you - my guess is that your first line of attack should be to elevate your UG GPA, and then maybe look into an SMP...not really sure about this...but perhaps an SMP with a linkage is your best bet (but your low UG GPA may keep you out of these programs, too, so best to ask questions)...didn't you already get shut out at some post bac programs? These programs will only admit students who have a reasonable shot at success, and my guess is that your low GPA is holding you back from these programs...

Click to expand...

I'm with the postbacker. Even with an SMP your looking at applying with a 2.8. Look at EVMS SMP and see what their director says to you. Their cut off for gpa is around where your at.

I have the suspicion that because rankings measure the gpa of the applicant pool for particular medical school that they don't want to drag down their numbers too far--just my own opinion. You seem like a good candidate for a raise your gpa for a year followed by an SMP type of candidate. But that's just the conventional if most practical in terms of odds advice.

I've taken the 4-5 year u-grad damage control method. At 3.3 I may still need an SMP. It generally sucks to be us.

Nasrudin said:

I'm with the postbacker. Even with an SMP your looking at applying with a 2.8. Look at EVMS SMP and see what their director says to you. Their cut off for gpa is around where your at.

I have the suspicion that because rankings measure the gpa of the applicant pool for particular medical school that they don't want to drag down their numbers too far--just my own opinion. You seem like a good candidate for a raise your gpa for a year followed by an SMP type of candidate. But that's just the conventional if most practical in terms of odds advice.

I've taken the 4-5 year u-grad damage control method. At 3.3 I may still need an SMP. It generally sucks to be us.

Click to expand...

I think Nasrudin is right about this. The OP is in for a long haul reclamation project on both his UG GPA and probably an SMP following that. Nasrudin has an excellent idea - talk to the director at, say, EVMS (Eastern Virginia Medical School) - from what I have read, a very high percentage of the SMP grads are offered a spot at EVMS (this kind of linkage would seem to me to be ideal for you). You need to talk to a "straight shooter" who can lay it out for you...if you could somehow get accepted at an SMP like EVMS, that could be the best thing to happen to you. Good luck.

This also depends on the OPs goals as well. Does the OP want to be eligible for UC schools as well. SMPs are still graduate level coursework, and may not allow him/her to survive the screening process with that undergrad GPA. This is why most UC schools advise our group of applicants (the GPA rehab'ers) to do upper division post-bacc.

relentless11 said:

This also depends on the OPs goals as well. Does the OP want to be eligible for UC schools as well. SMPs are still graduate level coursework, and may not allow him/her to survive the screening process with that undergrad GPA. This is why most UC schools advise our group of applicants (the GPA rehab'ers) to do upper division post-bacc.

Click to expand...

Well, since I do live in california, I would love a shot at UC schools, but since UC schools are among the more competitive, I'm willing to go anywhere. I am a bit restricted geographically when it comes to the post bacc (personal reasons), but I might be able to go out of state. I'm looking into applying to drexel's MSP. I applied there about 3 years ago and got waitlisted, and I'm hoping maybe I have a shot this time around.

1) if I do an SMP, since it won't raise my UG gpa, is there basically no shot at a CA school?
2) Would you recommend the Drexel's MSP over an informal post bacc through UCLA extension?
3) What other schools out there have linkage programs? I know that Drexel has kind of a linkage program as they will offer you an interview if you do well there. I think Georgetown has one, but the gpa requirement to get into the program is too high.

relentless11 said:

This also depends on the OPs goals as well. Does the OP want to be eligible for UC schools as well. SMPs are still graduate level coursework, and may not allow him/her to survive the screening process with that undergrad GPA. This is why most UC schools advise our group of applicants (the GPA rehab'ers) to do upper division post-bacc.

Click to expand...

Why the way, what does OP stand for? I'm guessing it's referring to applicant.

letmein145 said:

1) if I do an SMP, since it won't raise my UG gpa, is there basically no shot at a CA school?

Click to expand...

Nothing is impossible, but given yoru current GPA, and if there isn't significant improvement then I would say probably not given the volume of applicants and the statistics associated with a successful applicant at a UC. UC's never publish the GPA ranges, so one can never really be certain.

letmein145 said:

2) Would you recommend the Drexel's MSP over an informal post bacc through UCLA extension?

Click to expand...

Your problem isn't WHERE you go. The problem is how many courses you should take to improve your stats. Briefly looking at the Drexel program, its merely a year long course with 4 grad level courses, and a scattering of undergrad courses. Most post-bacc students that I know take a full-time course load. I did UCD Extension for a year under full-time conditions. This is good because: (1) it improves your undergrad GPA faster, and (2) it shows you can handle a rigorous courseload. If you do well but take fewer classes, and given that you had a low undergrad GPA at a CA university which requires a student to be full-time, they can easily say that you did better due to taking fewer classes. Ultimately, good grades are more important than the workload factor, but getting good grades under high workload is ideal.

Now the drawbacks of UC Extension is that it costs an arm and a leg. I was employed as an RA at UCD so I had a discount, but even then, I was paying more than an undergrad per class, I was last priority to register for classes, and last to be included onto the online course websites. Its very challenging and sometimes frustrating as an extension student. In one class, UCD Extension took a week to process my paperwork, and another week to communicate with UCD's Registrar's office to enter me into the database to use our online portal to take our online quizzes. The problem was that we had an online quiz the FIRST week. I had to beg the professor to take a paper-based quiz.

Remember that most, if not all US med schools (not just UC) favor undergrad GPA over graduate GPA. So your situation favors at least post-bacc work if not in combination with an SMP of some kind. You should do the math. How many classes will it take and how long will it take to get your overall undergrad GPA to a 3.0? Then multiply that with how much a class is at UCLA/UCI Extension to provide you with the cost. Finally implement your plan and come back to us after your first quarter. Its fine and all to project that you can get a 3.9-4.0 in coursework, but results are what get you into med school.

letmein145 said:

3) What other schools out there have linkage programs? I know that Drexel has kind of a linkage program as they will offer you an interview if you do well there. I think Georgetown has one, but the gpa requirement to get into the program is too high.

Click to expand...

Mill's College in Northern California, and Scripps in So. Cal have linkages. However both have a minimum undergrad GPA requirement of 3.3 or so. Scripps requires that you are a career changer too, not a standard pre-med.

Lastly, OP = original poster, which is the author of this thread (you).

relentless11 said:

Nothing is impossible, but given yoru current GPA, and if there isn't significant improvement then I would say probably not given the volume of applicants and the statistics associated with a successful applicant at a UC. UC's never publish the GPA ranges, so one can never really be certain.



Your problem isn't WHERE you go. The problem is how many courses you should take to improve your stats. Briefly looking at the Drexel program, its merely a year long course with 4 grad level courses, and a scattering of undergrad courses. Most post-bacc students that I know take a full-time course load. I did UCD Extension for a year under full-time conditions. This is good because: (1) it improves your undergrad GPA faster, and (2) it shows you can handle a rigorous courseload. If you do well but take fewer classes, and given that you had a low undergrad GPA at a CA university which requires a student to be full-time, they can easily say that you did better due to taking fewer classes. Ultimately, good grades are more important than the workload factor, but getting good grades under high workload is ideal.

Now the drawbacks of UC Extension is that it costs an arm and a leg. I was employed as an RA at UCD so I had a discount, but even then, I was paying more than an undergrad per class, I was last priority to register for classes, and last to be included onto the online course websites. Its very challenging and sometimes frustrating as an extension student. In one class, UCD Extension took a week to process my paperwork, and another week to communicate with UCD's Registrar's office to enter me into the database to use our online portal to take our online quizzes. The problem was that we had an online quiz the FIRST week. I had to beg the professor to take a paper-based quiz.

Remember that most, if not all US med schools (not just UC) favor undergrad GPA over graduate GPA. So your situation favors at least post-bacc work if not in combination with an SMP of some kind. You should do the math. How many classes will it take and how long will it take to get your overall undergrad GPA to a 3.0? Then multiply that with how much a class is at UCLA/UCI Extension to provide you with the cost. Finally implement your plan and come back to us after your first quarter. Its fine and all to project that you can get a 3.9-4.0 in coursework, but results are what get you into med school.



Mill's College in Northern California, and Scripps in So. Cal have linkages. However both have a minimum undergrad GPA requirement of 3.3 or so. Scripps requires that you are a career changer too, not a standard pre-med.

Lastly, OP = original poster, which is the author of this thread (you).

Click to expand...

cool....thanks for the info. I did a quick gpa calculation. When I wrote my original post, I wrote my old GPA down. I forgot to include some classes that I took after college. i'm really sorry if this totally negates all the advice you've already given me, but I still feel that the advice you have already given me has been 100 times more helpful than any premed counselor that I've met. Anyway, here's the more accurate, up to date info.

After taking 2 bio courses and 4 non-science related courses after college, my UG and Post bacc combined is

3.02 overall
2.75 for math and science.

If I take 4 classes a quarter at UCLA and get 4.0 in all of them (I know it's tough, considering my track record, but I'm 100 times a better student now than I was in college, so I think it's doable), I would end up with.

3.21 overall
3.1 for math and science.

i know that taking 12 class x $1000 per class is $12,000 for the year, but that still seems cheaper than going to drexel, which I believe will cost me $30,000 in tuition plus living expenses, plus airfare back to california to visit my family.

Does this "new" gpa change things a bit? or am I still stuck in a rut? Thanks for all your help. I really really appreciate it.

letmein145 said:

cool....thanks for the info. I did a quick gpa calculation. When I wrote my original post, I wrote my old GPA down. I forgot to include some classes that I took after college. i'm really sorry if this totally negates all the advice you've already given me, but I still feel that the advice you have already given me has been 100 times more helpful than any premed counselor that I've met. Anyway, here's the more accurate, up to date info.

After taking 2 bio courses and 4 non-science related courses after college, my UG and Post bacc combined is

3.02 overall
2.75 for math and science.

If I take 4 classes a quarter at UCLA and get 4.0 in all of them (I know it's tough, considering my track record, but I'm 100 times a better student now than I was in college, so I think it's doable), I would end up with.

3.21 overall
3.1 for math and science.

i know that taking 12 class x $1000 per class is $12,000 for the year, but that still seems cheaper than going to drexel, which I believe will cost me $30,000 in tuition plus living expenses, plus airfare back to california to visit my family.

Does this "new" gpa change things a bit? or am I still stuck in a rut? Thanks for all your help. I really really appreciate it.

Click to expand...

Yes the calculations help lot. Since you only took 2 science classes, than GPA rehab is cake. Just do post-bacc at UC Extension, and do well. I would favor doing 2 years since you would be waiting a year during the application cycle anyway. So total cost would be ~$24k which is still cheaper than 1 year at Drexel. So calculate how much ~72 units worth of 4.0 coursework can help your math/science GPA? That would be at least a 3.5 or more?

relentless11 said:

Yes the calculations help lot. Since you only took 2 science classes, than GPA rehab is cake. Just do post-bacc at UC Extension, and do well. I would favor doing 2 years since you would be waiting a year during the application cycle anyway. So total cost would be ~$24k which is still cheaper than 1 year at Drexel. So calculate how much ~72 units worth of 4.0 coursework can help your math/science GPA? That would be at least a 3.5 or more?

Click to expand...

Well the way I've calculated is

4 units per class x 4 classes per quarter x 3 quarters = 48 quarter units. I changed everything into semester points to figure out the calculation on the previous post. If I do one full year (48 quarter units), then my science gpa will be 3.1, overall will be 3.21.

If I go two years (96 quarter units), then my gpa will be 3.33 overall, 3.30 math/science.

however, I don't know if there are that many classes that I can take at UCLA. I was a bio major in college and I already took most of the bio related classes. The only way that I can take that many classes is if I retake some classes. Does retaking classes look good to adcoms?