D*%$

Doowai · Dec 6, 2007

I got an email from a program I had scheduled and interview with this week. They said they have filled most of their positions with the pre-match, and gave the option of cancelling the interview.

I am bummed. I still have (had?) 8 interviews left to do - and felt like canceling some, but having them suggest canceling really bums me out.

I called to ask how many positions they still had open and if they think they will fill them with more pre-matches. Have not heard back.

Just saying DAMN

Faebinder · Dec 6, 2007

Doowai said:
I got an email from a program I had scheduled and interview with this week. They said they have filled most of their positions with the pre-match, and gave the option of cancelling the interview.

I am bummed. I still have (had?) 8 interviews left to do - and felt like canceling some, but having them suggest canceling really bums me out.

I called to ask how many positions they still had open and if they think they will fill them with more pre-matches. Have not heard back.

Just saying DAMN

At least they were honest.. move on.. greener pastures out there.

Doowai · Dec 6, 2007

Yeah, I just hate to miss a single interview since I want the best chances I can get. Plus it was part of a 4 interview tour - I am glad to have as many of those as I can,, instead of the single interview trips.

Doowai · Dec 6, 2007

Thanks for the advice though, kind of you

Top Gun · Dec 6, 2007

Doowai said:
I got an email from a program I had scheduled and interview with this week. They said they have filled most of their positions with the pre-match, and gave the option of cancelling the interview.

I am bummed. I still have (had?) 8 interviews left to do - and felt like canceling some, but having them suggest canceling really bums me out.

I called to ask how many positions they still had open and if they think they will fill them with more pre-matches. Have not heard back.

Just saying DAMN

If its any consolation, a similar thing happened to me. I was all scheduled to interview at this family practice program in Pittsburgh when, one day, out of the clear blue sky I get this email saying that they will not be interviewing candidates for next year, and those of us who received invites have to cancel them. Of course, its not quite the same as being promised an interview and then being told that most of the spots have been filled with prematches. That situation sucks.

But, look at the bright side. You still have at least 8 more interviews to do, and I'm assuming you've done quite a few interviews already. I'm sure you can find a better program out there than the one that promised you an interview, and then changed their mind. With that many interviews, you probably have a good chance of matching somewhere this year.

icare4u · Dec 6, 2007

To the OP: Wow, that's AWFUL! I hadn't even worried about that before, but I guess it could happen to us all. Do these programs not realize how expensive the flights are in the first place, then the cancellation fee...What, do they just think money grows on trees??? (Sorry for raving here, but just spent the night figuring out how much all these trips are going to cost me!!!)

gutonc · Dec 6, 2007

IIRC, you too would be eligible for a pre-match. I would call/email and ask them if you would be considered for a pre-match spot if you did interview there (and if they'd be likely to have spots still available when you interviewed). If the answer is no, screw 'em. If the answer is yes and you'd want to go there then go for it, nothing to lose.

Doowai · Dec 8, 2007

Top Gun said:
But, look at the bright side. You still have at least 8 more interviews to do, and I'm assuming you've done quite a few interviews already. I'm sure you can find a better program out there than the one that promised you an interview, and then changed their mind. With that many interviews, you probably have a good chance of matching somewhere this year.

I have had a few but not that many. Yeah its gonna cost me money. Yesterday I was told they had filled all the positions with prematch.

NotAProgDirector · Dec 8, 2007

Doowai said:
I have had a few but not that many. Yeah its gonna cost me money. Yesterday I was told they had filled all the positions with prematch.

Well, that really sucks.

This is exactly the type of problem the match is supposed to prevent.

The NRMP keeps talking about forcing programs to be "all in" -- i.e. either all their spots are in the match, or none. This would force programs to either take all prematches or not. This might be helpful, as you'd know that you need to interview at non-NRMP programs early to have the best chance at a slot.

Won't it be funny if someone who has already signed a contract with said program continues interviewing and decides to join a different program and withdraws from the first, and all their remaining candidates have canceled?

Doowai · Dec 9, 2007

aProgDirector said:
Won't it be funny if someone who has already signed a contract with said program continues interviewing and decides to join a different program and withdraws from the first, and all their remaining candidates have canceled?

Could that happen? Maybe I should keep the interview - they said I could still keep it if I wanted, but they filled the slots.

I had an IMG friend interview their last week, and they offered him a prematch. They are pretty desperate to prematch - offer big cash signing bonus, big moving expense allowance, 3 weeks vacation, 2 weeks sick leave paid, 1 week educational leave the first year with $1000 cash, free PDA and above average salary. But if they are that desperate to prematch there has to be some problem there.

But could someone sign a prematch agreement and then go somewhere else? My friend asked if he could do that, but I told him I thought you had to go where you signed a contract. My friend got alot of interview offers (47) which is leaving me kind of panicked as I may not be able to keep all of mine, and if so many only get to actually interview at perhaps 10 places. There is just so many obstacles to attending all the interviews for me.

drbon · Dec 9, 2007

Doowai said:
Could that happen? Maybe I should keep the interview - they said I could still keep it if I wanted, but they filled the slots.

I had an IMG friend interview their last week, and they offered him a prematch. They are pretty desperate to prematch - offer big cash signing bonus, big moving expense allowance, 3 weeks vacation, 2 weeks sick leave paid, 1 week educational leave the first year with $1000 cash, free PDA and above average salary. But if they are that desperate to prematch there has to be some problem there.

big cash signing bonus? how is that legal?

Faebinder · Dec 9, 2007

Doowai said:
Could that happen? Maybe I should keep the interview - they said I could still keep it if I wanted, but they filled the slots.

I had an IMG friend interview their last week, and they offered him a prematch. They are pretty desperate to prematch - offer big cash signing bonus, big moving expense allowance, 3 weeks vacation, 2 weeks sick leave paid, 1 week educational leave the first year with $1000 cash, free PDA and above average salary. But if they are that desperate to prematch there has to be some problem there.

But could someone sign a prematch agreement and then go somewhere else? My friend asked if he could do that, but I told him I thought you had to go where you signed a contract. My friend got alot of interview offers (47) which is leaving me kind of panicked as I may not be able to keep all of mine, and if so many only get to actually interview at perhaps 10 places. There is just so many obstacles to attending all the interviews for me.

No program is desperate... don't fool yourself. They just want to look good on paper and willing to spend money for it. Any program can snap their fingers and get an FMG candidate. I hope you got some more interviews left.

NotAProgDirector · Dec 9, 2007

Doowai said:
Could that happen? Maybe I should keep the interview - they said I could still keep it if I wanted, but they filled the slots.

I had an IMG friend interview their last week, and they offered him a prematch. They are pretty desperate to prematch - offer big cash signing bonus, big moving expense allowance, 3 weeks vacation, 2 weeks sick leave paid, 1 week educational leave the first year with $1000 cash, free PDA and above average salary. But if they are that desperate to prematch there has to be some problem there.

But could someone sign a prematch agreement and then go somewhere else? My friend asked if he could do that, but I told him I thought you had to go where you signed a contract. My friend got alot of interview offers (47) which is leaving me kind of panicked as I may not be able to keep all of mine, and if so many only get to actually interview at perhaps 10 places. There is just so many obstacles to attending all the interviews for me.

Could it happen? Of course. Is it likely? Probably not, but you never know. However, almost every year in late june / early july there is a flurry of emails from PD's stating that someone didn;t show up... so it happens somewhere.

If you sign a contract outside the match, and then decide to resign / cancel / not show up etc, there really isn't much that the program can do. If they gave you a signing bonus and/or other benefits, then they can definitely demand that you return them, perhaps with interest. This should be spelled out in the contract, as should be what happens if you're fired. Would be a real bummer to find out that if you get fired, you have to return the $10K signing bonus that you've already spent.

There is nothing illegal about a signing bonus. Happens all the time in some fields, including medicine (usually when you finish training).

There is no match violation involved, as all this was done outside the match.

Doowai · Dec 10, 2007

Faebinder said:
No program is desperate... don't fool yourself. They just want to look good on paper and willing to spend money for it. Any program can snap their fingers and get an FMG candidate. I hope you got some more interviews left.

Yeah I do, but not as many as I like. I may not be able to keep them all, but hope to still do 7 more. It seems like a lot compared to last year, but one of my best friends (FMG) got 47 invites - and that makes me feel like I have none.

Danica · Dec 10, 2007

Doowai said:
Yeah I do, but not as many as I like. I may not be able to keep them all, but hope to still do 7 more. It seems like a lot compared to last year, but one of my best friends (FMG) got 47 invites - and that makes me feel like I have none.

Two comments:
1. :beat:

This is fabulous news. If I guesstimate that you have 12 interviews plus your friends 47 and Since you and your friend can only match to one spot each, that leaves 57 of those 59 total iv's for other less fortunate.

2. +pity+

You should try to get some counseling for your inferiority complex.

Doowai · Dec 10, 2007

Danica said:
2. You should try to get some counseling for your inferiority complex.

I would but it might hurt my drive to do things in life. I think it is one of the reasons I won first place in a competitive state event this year, was number one in my state in my field in a business prior to returning to medical school, as well as doing other things like authoring an instructional tape on martial arts that outsold Chuck Norris (both were marketed by the same company). I have not done much, but what I have done is largely because of my low self esteem.

My brothers also have the same sort of problem, and is probably one of the reasons my brother is a specialty surgical department chair at a major medical school and one of the main people (if not the main person) in charge of a certain certification that some elite hospital departments have to attain and maintain. And the reason the other brother is a super successful attorney and judge. Inferiority complexes aren't all bad. Self esteem is not all its cracked up to be.

Doowai · Dec 11, 2007

Faebinder said:
No program is desperate... don't fool yourself. They just want to look good on paper and willing to spend money for it. Any program can snap their fingers and get an FMG candidate. I hope you got some more interviews left.

Well maybe desperate is not the right word, but then again maybe it is. Any IM program that offers 5 grand to sign a prematch (and fills all of its positions with prematches) obviously lacks confidence that the academic rigour of its program alone is sufficient to attract candidates at match time. The same 5 grand signing bonus, PLUS the fact they would cancel interviews on people less than a week from flight time shows they also do not value or count on a friendly and healthy social/work environment to be a selling point. A program that would cancel just a few days prior to a candidates interview like that is not likely to ever place much emphasis on just basic social consideration, and the residents signing there can probably count on mistreatment every step of the way. The program bought them and probably feels like it owns them.

I have no problem with that. I just want to get the MD license to prove I can do it, and add it to my list of accomplishments in life, and then move back on to real life. Residency in most programs, is alot like hazing when joining a fraternity - just some crap you put up with to get what you want.

But in any event, I think this residency oviously knows it lacks the quality program to attract good candidates any other way, and knows better than to wait for the match because they know they will probably get hosed by other programs that offer better work environments and higher quality curricula. Some might call that desperation.

Doowai · Dec 13, 2007

aProgDirector said:
If you sign a contract outside the match, and then decide to resign / cancel / not show up etc, there really isn't much that the program can do. .

So let me get this straight: A person (FMG) could sign a contract outside of the match, but then participate in the match and take what position they get?

if an FMG accepted a prematch offer, wouldn't the program make them resign from the match?

gng930 · Dec 14, 2007

aProgDirector said:
If you sign a contract outside the match, and then decide to resign / cancel / not show up etc, there really isn't much that the program can do.

At the same time, you better be careful with comments like these...you've opened up a can of worms. :laugh:

NotAProgDirector · Dec 14, 2007

See the other thread, you must withdraw from the match if you prematch.

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