stchris student here offering honest and prompt help

Mike, you need not attack another SDN member to be informative here, and it in fact detracts from it and from making positive contributions for all. In that vien, please feel free to reply to queries in line here so others may benefit from your input.

Sorry but I posed this question on the Hanson St Chris forum, but the St Chris forum moderator did not approve it. ( I figured you would want to know that since I see you have a crusade against forum moderators )

I saw on the St Christopher Official Web Site that they listed NEW MEXICO as a state where their graduates could get licensure.
HOWEVER, New Mexico medical board uses the CALIFORNIA approval criteria as their own.

Any school NOT approved by California, is not approved by New Mexico!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

St Christopher is not approved by California, but they list New Mexico as OK. Something stinks here : Like their story

My guess is they didn't even check out any states because this would have been so easy to verify. Tssk Tssk

Can we trust anything they say about being able to get a license, since they can't even be trusted to verify easy information like this and feel free to post this inaccurate information on their web site?

Thanks Dr Welby

First of all, there is no list of any states on St. Chris's official website at www.stchris.edu. If there is, why don't you point us to it? Should we call you a liar if it can't be found?

The list you mention may have been on the old site, but that is exactly the point. Old. If St. Chris did put New Mexico on the list, then they probably did it around 1999-2000 when the list was compiled. You probably don't know this, but New Mexico "using" the California list only started in about 1999. So, you see, there is a simple explanation. Don't go around making accusations unless you know all the facts.

First of all, this info was removed within the last few weeks ( after this "mishap" was exposed on the Hanson Forum )

Just one in a series of web site "changes" by St Christpoher, like when they posted all sorts of pics of Cambridge University on their web site.

Let's see, it's 2002, right?
Pretty great when 3 year old information is fixed, and only AFTER people that actually did some research pointed it out.!
Guess the web browser in Senegal is 14K modem speed!

Sorry if you got duped into thinking you were graduating from Cambridge!

First, the new St. Chris website (totally revamped and redesigned) came up in the last few weeks. It had nothing to do with your supposed list -- the one you can't even produce.

Second, St. Chris never had pictures of Cambridge on its site (old or new). Again, you have shown you have no knowledge of the facts but just some disgruntiled troublemaker who likely was ousted from a foreign med school. For your information, those were pics of its fully affiliated University of Luton and the site CLEARLY stated that. I'm so sorry you cannot read bold print on the top of the page. Perhaps thats what led you to receive your poor grades.

They absolutely did have Cambridge pics!

*** Why were they "removed" *** Hmmm?

PS: Personal attacks are the M.O. of St Christopher students, when they are confrunted with the truth
Just look at the vicious attacks on NeilC, only for asking questions.

Why is that?

Here is another question which you can answer for me:
Was the owner of St Christopher, ever a student at SABA?

Again, they were not Cambridge pics, but the University of Luton. Unlike you, I've been to both places and know the difference. If you are so sure, show me the Cambridge pics, I'm sure you must have saved the jpg's.

Neil did not just ask questions. He lied repeatedly on the Hanson's forum. Again, you must have some difficulty wth reading comprehension. Should I re-post for you some of Neil's remarks which were NOT questions? Maybe we can take a poll and determine if those comments were "questions" or "statements" since you have difficulty discerning between the two.

Regarding the "owner", why don't you call or write and ask him? I cannot speak for anyone else. Post the results of your investigation here for all to see.

Please do not finish an argument here that was started elsewhere, folks. Kindly keep to the issues, and to the sorts of discourses that are in keeping with who you are and/or are becoming: professionals.

This forum is about getting questions answered and sharing information
Unfortunately, whenever anybody asks legitimate questions about St Christopher like them posting pics of Cambridge and calling it their school ( which they quickly removed after people called them on it ) and incorrectly listing states where they can get licensed, ( then fixing it, after 3 years once somebody points it out) , the attack dogs get the whistle and go for the personal attacks.

I want somebody to tell me if the owner of that school was ever a student at SABA, and was he kicked out of Saba for cheating.
That is important information for anybody looking for stability and ethics in a school

I think these are fair questions, and do not merit personal attacks by administrators posing as students.
These are honest questions posed in a very nice way, and should not result in name calling, and attacks on reading comprehension, from people) that if I am not mistaken, couldn't get into medical school in the USA )

If I may...

I am a frequent visitor of the IMG forums on Network54 and SDN and often come across the "St. Christopher" related threads. What gets to me often is the reoccurance of personal attacks, regardless of the person initiating it.

What I would like to pose to the St. Christopher students is a few questions. Please keep in mind that I am not insulting you or involving personal attacks and would greatly appreciate a concise straight forward answer:

1. Stating NM as an approved state: The state of NM enacted the Calif rule as a part of its Medical Board constitution in 1989 NOT 1999. So where did you obtain your information? In fact, I had checked out the St. Chris web site 2 months ago to explore the possibility of transferring for better clinical sites and that was one of the first facts that turned me away.

2. Why do St. Chris students on the forums become so obsessed with NeilC? If in fact he is lying, then the facts about your school will speak for themselves, right? Then why worry so much about him?

3. If the school is a Senegal school, then why is the website, in predominance designed to make the school sound like its a Britich school? Also, do the students ever take coursework in Senegal?

4. Where in relation to the school is the much referenced Burger King?

5. Why does the administration claim that they have more clinical spots than any other Foreign Medical school including SGU and ROSS?

6. Lastly and most importantly, why does St. Chris allow its students to do clinicals in the US without passing USMLE and even after having failed?

Best of luck to you at St. Chris!

a coupe of points...

1. st chris absolutely had a list of states, and as soon as the NM discrepancy was discovered, it was removed.
2. they did have cambridge photos, when the school first opened and rented facilities at cambridge. agian, when that was exposed, they quickly removed them. you can check it out with www.aaimg.com as they mention it as well.
my stating these facts is NOT a personal attack, just want to make sure the truth is out there!!!! if you go to st chris, just because i said this does not mean i hate you!!!!! I AM NOT THE ENEMY!!!

i am also interested in the answers to global disrobal's questions, especially #2. i mean, all i do is state my opinion about your school, which i have developed from several sources. an opinion is an opinion, and if you don't like mine, fine! but jeez, it is getting a bit ridiculous. i really don't see how attacking me helps at all. i never mean to attack (well, i have posted 1 or 2 reactionary posts that i regret, sorry about that), just to provide my own admittedly very limited input. if i have ever posted a personal attack, or came across that way. i apologize. never meant to make it personal, just a poor reaction on my part, or a poorly thought out response. sorry 'bout that!

all i know is what i read on the website, get from my freind who is an ex student, and read on my email from other ex students. i keep getting called a liar, but i have ever lied...in fact, i have only exposed st chris lies! strange that you get so angry when i "lie", but when we prove that your school lies you deny it....strange, indeed.

i don't participate in these forums to destroy st chris. i participate to provide infor, on the rare occassions that i may have it, to learn about the way people handle things that i am also going thru, such as studying for the usmle and to relax and make freinds with others in the process! i think that is the true point of these forums....

so, please guys. lets move beyond this...it would be great to get answers in a civilized form to the questions that people have. it would be great if you could also participate and share information as well as learn from these forums...and, who knows, maybe you will have some fun and meet some cool folks too!!!

peace out!

Hi HiFi!
I'm a first semester student at St Chris.

I actually emailed the state of Oregon on this article and they failed to respond to my questions.

The focus of the article was suppose to be on St. John University School of Medicine and not on St Christopher's College of Medicine. The people in that article did wrong and they have no relationship with St Chrisopher's College of Medicine.


Regarding:
The defendants told students questioning the school?s credentials that their St. John?s transcripts would be accredited through St. Christopher?s College of Medicine with campuses in both Cambridge, England and Dakar, Senegal and an "office of registrar" in Florida. Students were encouraged to view the St. Christopher?s web site, which features campus photos of Cambridge University, not St. Christopher?s College of Medicine. The actual school is in an upstairs location in a nearby neighborhood.


The college started in Cambridge and eventually moved most of its program to the University of Luton because St Chris became a college within the University of Luton. They also became affiliated with Guy's & King's College, a respected UK medical school. 5th semester students are currently doing coursework in Cambridge but I believe the Cambridge extension program has been discontinued since the college is trying to consolidate all of its coursework at the University of Luton. I believe the school was trying to become affiliated with the University of Cambridge but was unsuccessful because of politics and budget. Yes we have campuses in Luton,England and Senegal, Africa. The English program is geared to attract US, Canadian, European, Middle Eastern, and Asian students. The Senegal program is geared to those people interested in African healthcare. The campuses are independent of one another.

The pictures are of the University of Luton. You can do a virtual tour on the University of Luton's website (http://www.luton.ac.uk)and compare. The college is not in an upstairs location in a nearby neighborhood. The college is in the University of Luton and all the facilities are just like a public university in the US.


Regarding:

...... and St. Christopher?s College of Medicine does not appear to be licensed or accredited by anyone. In Britain and Senegal, medical students are required to take classes for five to eight years in order to obtain a degree. St. Christopher?s web site offers a four?year program in both of those countries.


St Chris is licensed and accredited by Senegal. The university is a college within the University of Luton, an accredited UK university. The school is recognized by the GMC for limited registration. Students can do clerkships in the UK or the US.
The school is working hard to get full registration and more clinical sites in the US. Politics seems to be a slow and tedious process.

In the UK, medical school is different. Medical students in the UK are straight out of high school. They mix some premed coursework with the biomedical sciences. That is why they are six plus years long. St Chris is based on the US model of education. In cooperation with the University of Luton and King's College of London, they're developing a new program for students based on the US model so that students who did premed coursework don't have to go through the six year programs.

The college's website was not updated frequently because they didn't have a full-time staff member to do this. The college now has someone working hard to improve the accuracy of the information on the website. The website was recently updated. I recommend you do a school visit and have a tour with a medical student.

resources:

http://www.stchris.edu/
http://www.luton.ac.uk/
http://www.kcl.ac.uk/

I was trying to find out about St Chris being "a college within the University of Luton," which is also "affiliated with Guy's & King's College," but a thorough search of the UL and GKC sites turn up nothing in these regards. Can you point me to the correct URLs? Or is the "college within" and "affiliation" really more about just a landlord-tenant agreement at this point?

There are no specific URLs that will mention these exact phrases. St Christopher's College of Medicine is currently within the University of Luton system. We have a full affiliation with the university. All students in the program are registered as University of Luton students and receive all the benefits of the university. The first year program at Kings College of London is an affiliation too but, we are not considered King's College students. We take classes there and are instructed by their faculty. Students interested in doing UK clerkships are allowed to participate in programs in Luton and London. We have an affiliation with Luton-Dunstable Hospital and Guy's Hospital of King's College.

I wouldn't call it a landlord agreement. The university systems in the UK are different from the US. Universities like Oxford, Cambridge, Luton, etc... are composed of a loose confederation of faculties, colleges, and other bodies. I believe they call this the collegiate system. The idea is "different" colleges, schools, and educational bodies calloborate with one another and exchange ideas. It promotes diversity and intellectual exchange. In the US, universities are composed of colleges and schools within the "same" system and they're not open to foreign schools operating within their systems. The US also has limited exchange programs and is not as proactive like the UK in trying to combat poverty and health issues in developing countries. The UK is open to diversity and to the development of 3rd world countries. By embracing such programs like St Christopher's, the University of Luton is making a name for themselves internationally while being able to contribute to the development of healthcare programs in third world countries (i.e.-Senegal). Also, this university is mainly an undergraduate institution and they have some limited graduate programs. So by establishing programs like St Chris and other graduate programs, they can compete with some of the larger institutions in the UK and abroad.

Interested students are encouraged to visit the University of Luton and go on a tour.

Originally posted by mtt
I recommend you do a school visit and have a tour with a medical student.

resources:

http://www.stchris.edu/
http://www.luton.ac.uk/
http://www.kcl.ac.uk/

The US also has limited exchange programs and is not as proactive like the UK in trying to combat poverty and health issues in developing countries. The UK is open to diversity and to the development of 3rd world countries. By embracing such programs like St Christopher's, the University of Luton is making a name for themselves internationally while being able to contribute to the development of healthcare programs in third world countries (i.e.-Senegal).....

Interested students are encouraged to visit the University of Luton and go on a tour.

Click to expand...

Sorry that we all appear to gang up on you. I really think that you provide accurate info. I have no direct info from anyone else who is directly related to st chris as you are.

That being said, however, just listening to some of what you have typed, it just sounds sooooo propagandaish......

"interested students are encouraged to visit the university of luton and go on a tour"

If I were a student at my med school, I would say, "if you really doubt what I said, please come to MY school and visit for yourself. Better yet, here is my e-mail address and I will be more than happy to talk with you even for a short 30 minute period during your visit. I have other classmates here that you can meet (to prove that you ignorant fools are wrong)." And the fact that you and marcuswelby just show up of nowhere, post 2-3 message and kind of disappear. If both of you are really students, I am sure that this forum will provide a lot of useful info for you guys so please stick around and contribute. But I just get wary of posters who show up and then disappear, leaving words that sound more like recruiting message than opinions....

Originally posted by mtt
Universities like Oxford, Cambridge, Luton, etc... are composed of a loose confederation of faculties, colleges, and other bodies. I believe they call this the collegiate system. The idea is "different" colleges, schools, and educational bodies calloborate with one another and exchange ideas."

Click to expand...

Each college at Oxford and Cambridge is independent. They all pretty much offer all the different "majors" found at the university (i.e. philosophy, english, chemistry, biology, medicine, etc. etc.). There is really "not that much difference" between the colleges. They also pretty much recruit from the same pool of students (i.e. mostly private school kids; in UK they call them public school. By contrast our public school kids are called state school kids in UK. weird, eh?) so oxbridge has been burnt by British media for their alleged elitis attitude against applicants from poorer, under-represented social class and geographical region. The only difference between the colleges at Oxbridge are that some of them are well-endowed (Chris Church, St John's, Queen's, Magdalen at Oxford) while others are not (St. Catherines, Pembroke, St. Edmund's Hall, St Peter's, etc. at Oxford). So I don't agree with your idea of different colleges coming together to "exchange" ideas. It is more or less for living and educational convenience, and not for diversity's and discussion's sake.

Regarding:

...it just sounds sooooo propagandaish......
"interested students are encouraged to visit the university of luton and go on a tour" If I were a student at my med school, I would say...


Well, that's how I speak. I'm not you and you're not me! You can interpret me anyway you like. I'm here to talk about my experiences. I'm not here to chit chat, talk politics, or have thought provoking discussions. My email address is on my SDN profile. You are more than welcome to email me at anytime.


Regarding:
I have other classmates here that you can meet (to prove that you ignorant fools are wrong)."

I don't resort to that kind of language.
There's no need to say such a thing.


The reason I said to visit the Univeristy of Luton is that I showed a young lady around about a week ago. She told me of the things going on the forums so I decided to volunteer my precious time to help out other prospective students. She came for a visit to Luton and she was impressed with the college. I even introduced her to some upperclassmen going to clinicals and she asked all sorts of questions. If you want to find out more about St Chris, either contact me or any other student and we will be happy to help you. The St Chris Web site has an internal forum where questions can be answered. I recommend you use that. Realize you'll be spending lots of money for your education, so it is important you visit England and see what the college has to offer.


Regarding:

So I don't agree with your idea of different colleges coming together to "exchange" ideas. It is more or less for living and educational convenience, and not for diversity's and discussion's sake.


I'm glad you don't agree with me. You can think whatever you want but that is how this program operates. The colleges you mentioned are UK specific. You have to realize that there are foreign colleges and universities operating on UK soil like Huron University USA, AIU, St Christopher's, Kigezi, etc.. Such programs promote diversity and internationalism in the UK educational system. And since we're affiliated with King's College London, every time we go down to London for classes or clerkships, we interact with the UK faculty and medical students. We always compare our systems of education and talk about licensure in both countries. Hence, different colleges (like St Chris and King's) come together to "exchange" ideas.

Alright gang,

Is it just me or does something just not add up?

To the new poster (MTT)...please look at page 1 of this thread and at my post..I had several questions for you folks. Can you please answer them as coherently as you have been answering the other questions?

Thanks for your time...in fact, I will post that again next!

Here is my previous post. Please see if you can address the 6 questions I ask. They are recurrent themes on the forums surrounding St. Chris. Maybe your reply will shed some light on our doubts and thoughts.

Best of luck to you...here it goes

If I may...

I am a frequent visitor of the IMG forums on Network54 and SDN and often come across the "St. Christopher" related threads. What gets to me often is the reoccurance of personal attacks, regardless of the person initiating it.

What I would like to pose to the St. Christopher students is a few questions. Please keep in mind that I am not insulting you or involving personal attacks and would greatly appreciate a concise straight forward answer:

1. Stating NM as an approved state: The state of NM enacted the Calif rule as a part of its Medical Board constitution in 1989 NOT 1999. So where did you obtain your information? In fact, I had checked out the St. Chris web site 2 months ago to explore the possibility of transferring for better clinical sites and that was one of the first facts that turned me away.

2. Why do St. Chris students on the forums become so obsessed with NeilC? If in fact he is lying, then the facts about your school will speak for themselves, right? Then why worry so much about him?

3. If the school is a Senegal school, then why is the website, in predominance designed to make the school sound like its a Britich school? Also, do the students ever take coursework in Senegal?

4. Where in relation to the school is the much referenced Burger King?

5. Why does the administration claim that they have more clinical spots than any other Foreign Medical school including SGU and ROSS?

6. Lastly and most importantly, why does St. Chris allow its students to do clinicals in the US without passing USMLE and even after having failed?

Best of luck to you at St. Chris!

We have a full affiliation with the University [of Luton].

Click to expand...

I think we are having problems with definitions here, and I just want to make sure things are clear to readers.

By "a full affiliation," it seems you are more saying "a steady agreement," or just "an affiliation," or something more close to these.

Most would take "full affiliation" to mean that St. C is an actual college OF Luton University, which I do not think you are really trying to say, though it can be taken that way.

If St. C were a true college of Luton, one would see clear references to it in the school's list of colleges. But no such reference exists.

This therefore leads me to conclude that it is more an agreement than a full-fledged "affiliation" in the sense of the school being a faculty of, a true college of, the University of Luton.

None of this is to bunk anything whatsoever related to St. C. I am not in a position to speak of the school from any position of first-hand experience, or the like, though I do have close knowledge of other similarly situated foreign schools who have agreements with UK institutions. This all is only to perhaps bring about a more accurate description of the actual relationship between St. C and Luton, so there is no misunderstanding by readers here. I do wish the school and its student the very best of success, and as anybody here knows who has read my posts for very long, I think cooperation in medical training across borders is nothing but a positive thing.

Still, I think we are more accurate to reserve using terminology like "full affiliation" for such time as when St. C receives unlimited registration status with the GMC-GB, and/or is officially called something to the tune of "St. Christopher's College of Medicine of the University of Luton" by the Unversity of Luton itself. Because otherwise, even if terminology such as "full affiliation" is not meant this way, it can certainly be taken that way. And that would simply not be good for any party involved whatsoever.

I trust this post is taken in the good spirit for which it is intended, and in which it is indeed given.

1. Stating NM as an approved state: The state of NM enacted the Calif rule as a part of its Medical Board constitution in 1989 NOT 1999. So where did you obtain your information? In fact, I had checked out the St. Chris web site 2 months ago to explore the possibility of transferring for better clinical sites and that was one of the first facts that turned me away.


Yes, I am aware of the California law. Unfortunately, I can't answer your question regarding NM. I am not from that state or an expert of NM law. I am aware that a St Chris student is out there based on the posts in Network54 but I don't know who he is or how he managed to get through the law developed by California. It is likely that the individual applied for licensure right before the law passed. Please realize that this program is mainly for US students on the east coast. If you're from the western states, only consider St Chris if you have intentions of practicing in an eastern state. Our school is aggressively attacking the East and is currently in the process for NJ and NY approval. Most students are from Florida, Louisiana, Michigan, and NJ. If you're from any other state, it is recommended you contact the state board regarding licensure. It is your responsibility to find out this information, not the medical schools. Note that these laws constantly change every year so it's not a good idea to rely on any list that maybe published on the forums. That was an old list off an old student handbook. That information is no longer reliable since a lot has changed. It is possible we may pursue California approval but not for awhile. One step at a time.


2. Why do St. Chris students on the forums become so obsessed with NeilC? If in fact he is lying, then the facts about your school will speak for themselves, right? Then why worry so much about him?


I don't worry about him or anybody else. I'm not going to point the finger at anyone and try to discredit individuals. That's a waste of time. However, realize you shouldn't listen to individuals who don't represent our school. If you have a student who is from a Caribbean or a Eastern European school how will he or she know anything about how the Irish and UK programs work when they're not even a student at those programs? Even if he or she has a friend from there, don't listen to that person. Talk to the actual student who represents the school! There has been a lot of twisting of the truth on the forums and you should only contact the college/students directly to find out the truth. Don't depend solely on forums and websites to make your decisions. You need to do your own homework and see which medical school fits your needs. Do site visits. Talk with real students. Most foreign medical schools are a valid choice. Just choose what best fits your needs.


3. If the school is a Senegal school, then why is the website, in predominance designed to make the school sound like its a Britich school? Also, do the students ever take coursework in Senegal?


The school is an international medical school with two independent campuses. One in Senegal and one in England. The website promotes the UK branch more because most students prefer to do coursework in the UK because they speak English and they have all the comforts of the US. The Senegal program is open to anyone who wants to go but realize it is in French West Africa and is predominantly a Muslim country. Do you speak French? Can you live in a predominantly Muslim culture? It is all up to you! Do you want to practice medicine in the UK/US/Canada or in a third world country?

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sg.html

There is no coursework done in Senegal. The campuses are independent of one another. The college is only licensed there. The college is the main driving force for healthcare programs in Senegal. Funding is provided by the WHO to help with the development of these programs. I believe the college became licensed in Senegal because of the funding from the WHO, the opportunity to make a difference in African healthcare, and because the UK gives incentives to foreign businesses from 3rd world countries. This is all speculation and I probably will never know the real reason as to why. You will learn all these things from our school newletters and at orientation. The president will point out all these facts and even say if you have a problem with the African license, just leave.


4. Where in relation to the school is the much referenced Burger King?

The main campus in Luton is not on top of any Burger King. It is currently in the University of Luton and we are University of Luton students. The university has approximately 12000 students. Realize we are in a small city and we have a mall, restaurants, and all sorts of things. There is a Burger King approximately 5 minutes away in the mall adjacent to the Thistle Hotel.


5. Why does the administration claim that they have more clinical spots than any other Foreign Medical school including SGU and ROSS?

I don't know but I can't prove that. We do have good clinical sites and we don't publish that information because it depends on a lot of factors. For one, the college doesn't want students from other medical schools trying to call up hospitals and harass the hospitals. The college also doesn't want to make guarantees to you about going here and there. Things are based on availability, academics, and hospital politics. If you're a 1st or 2nd year student, this shouldn't concern you. You should be thinking about passing your courses. When you near your 3rd year, you will sit down with the president or dean and they will give you some options to choose from based on your progress in the school. Realize if you're studying with the foreign medical school option, dreams of Harvard, Yale, and John Hopkins clerkships/ residencies are rare and almost nonexistent. However, this school does allow you to do clerkships in the US and the UK.


6. Lastly and most importantly, why does St. Chris allow its students to do clinicals in the US without passing USMLE and even after having failed?

Students who do clinicals without passing Step I are able to enter those US hospitals because it is not a manadatory requirement of the hospital. There are some hospitals that won't even consider you if you don't have a passing Step I. It all depends on what the requirements are of the hospital. Also, if an individual fails their first time, the college will allow the student to do a 6 week clinical clerkship and give them a second chance to pass. This approach has helped some students pass their second time since Step I is becoming more clinical based. If you fail after that, I think you'll be dismissed.

I think we are having problems with definitions here, and I just want to make sure things are clear to readers.


I don't think we have a problem with any definitions here.
We are students of the University of Luton. We have IDs to prove it and we use all their facilities. We do use their faculty too especially when it comes to lab and research programs. We practically occupy one of their whole buildings (4 floors).



By "a full affiliation," it seems you are more saying "a steady agreement," or just "an affiliation," or something more close to these.

Most would take "full affiliation" to mean that St. C is an actual college OF Luton University, which I do not think you are really trying to say, though it can be taken that way.

If St. C were a true college of Luton, one would see clear references to it in the school's list of colleges. But no such reference exists.

This therefore leads me to conclude that it is more an agreement than a full-fledged "affiliation" in the sense of the school being a faculty of, a true college of, the University of Luton.


Not necessarily, that depends on the webmaster and how informed other departments are of each other. This is a large university and I learn things everyday. If you try to contact Luton University through their website, they will refer you to the St Chris office. I did this initially before I came here

Remember, things are different in the UK. The collegiate system is based on a a loose confederation of faculties, colleges, and other bodies. You can't apply US standards to their system. Things are different here. It is a foreign country! Everything is not the US.



Still, I think we are more accurate to reserve using terminology like "full affiliation" for such time as when St. C receives unlimited registration status with the GMC-GB, and/or is officially called something to the tune of "St. Christopher's College of Medicine of the University of Luton" by the Unversity of Luton itself. Because otherwise, even if terminology such as "full affiliation" is not meant this way, it can certainly be taken that way. And that would simply not be good for any party involved whatsoever.



Realize that limited registration is not bad. It means that a student who wants to practice in the UK will do 5 years of supervised practice in the UK. Then based on that persons performance and visa issues, the person can apply for full registration to be fully licensed in the UK. The school has a very close relationship with the University of Luton and is working hard to achieving full registration. This is based on facts from our last newsletter and meetings with the president.

If you have any doubt about our relationship with the University of Luton, you need to come to England and tour the facilities. Don't rely solely on websites and forums to make your decisions. Come here and talk to the students.

no offense meant here, but it seems to me that st chris is trying to sell itself as Luton...it is great if you use the facilities and some profs give lectures...say it like that.

having a luton id does not make you a student. for example, in california, anyone from the community can enroll at some classes in the state colleges. you get an id, you can use the facilities. but, the classes do not count toward graduation, you never had to apply, etc...if you are a student of luton, you would apply to that school and graduate from there...also, your degree would say that you are a grad of univ of luton college of medicine, not st chris.

in my experience with the forums and the students and/or admin of st chris, everything is always skewed a bit...it is fine and dandy to have this "affiliation", but you must be more honest. if you are true students of luton, get it on your degree or a transcript from there. why try to sell it for more than it is???

you have an agreement that allows you to use the facilities. simple. a landlord/tenant relationship.

if you are a student of luton, you would apply to that school and graduate from there...also, your degree would say that you are a grad of univ of luton college of medicine, not st chris.

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Precisely.

If you have any doubt about our relationship with the University of Luton, you need to come to England and tour the facilities. Don't rely solely on websites and forums to make your decisions. Come here and talk to the students.

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Student commentary is of course vital, but in these sorts of things I'd recommend researching these points by addressing U of Luton officials. Along these lines, and because of the apparent confusion over the nature of the relationship, I have written someone at Luton and hopefully will have clarifying info from them in a few days.

Again, I just want to make sure readers here have accurate info in all this.

Originally posted by neilc
univ of luton college of medicine, not st chris.

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Let's give mtt's benefits of doubt. Maybe their diploma does say Univ of Luton, St Chris college of medicine.... Is it? please clarify.

Originally posted by mtt
The university systems in the UK are different from the US. Universities like Oxford, Cambridge, Luton, etc... are composed of a loose confederation of faculties, colleges, and other bodies. I believe they call this the collegiate system.

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Originally posted by mtt
The colleges you mentioned are UK specific. You have to realize that there are foreign colleges and universities operating on UK soil like Huron University USA, AIU, St Christopher's, Kigezi, etc.. Such programs promote diversity and internationalism in the UK educational system. And since we're affiliated with King's College London, every time we go down to London for classes or clerkships, we interact with the UK faculty and medical students. We always compare our systems of education and talk about licensure in both countries. Hence, different colleges (like St Chris and King's) come together to "exchange" ideas.

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In the first quote above, I felt that you just wanted to put Luton in the same sentence as Oxford and Cambridge.

You seem to want to emphasize that the "college" system in the UK is like that between MIT and Harvard where students can cross-register and use each other's facilities BUT they do graduate from different institutions though. You like to emphasize that word, "independence."

However, even though each college at Oxford and Cambridge is independent, its relationship with the university is more like College of Arts and Science and College of Engineering within the University of Pennsylvania, and NOT the one between MIT and Harvard. Therefore, if you graduate from Magalen College at Oxford University, your diploma will say, Oxford University. If you graduate from College of Arts and Sciences from Penn, your diploma will say the University of Pennsylvania.

But if you graduate from Harvard while cross-registered at MIT for one semester and took two classes there, your diploma will say Harvard (NOT MIT).

In the second quote, if your idea of college system between St. Chris and King's College applies to the relationship between St. Chris and Luton, then that relationship is more or less landlord/tenor. Because if you graduate from St. Chris, your diploma will not say King's College, University of London.

Is the latter or the former apply to the relationship between St. Chris and Luton?

Have I confused all of you YET?!

Originally posted by marcuswelby
i know people have a lot of questions, if you want help i willing to do what i can. as i have said and will always say if you want honest and prompt info on stchris talk to real students who are really here who are really graduating who are really getting residencies. my email is [email protected]

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FAKE!
If you want to be helpful just answer the damned questions and stop the talking points from administration.

this is beyond fake.
there are dozens of questions here and plenty of phantom administrators posing as students so people ought to expect a few answers.

that tirade contained ZERO answers.
100% propoganda.

how much are they paying you to write this stuff.
when they say squat, you say yes sir?

please answer a single question.

PS last I heard the AUC charter is now in St Martin

there , I provided more information in one sentence than you can in a whole paragraph of talking points

mike come on....there are questions being asked, and they are not being answered. also, you are the same guy calling me names all over the other forum and emailing me threats for questioning your school...yes, i did save those emails, with your email address on them. so, it seems you do have something against a hard, fair question. i don't know why you have such a personal problem with me...i sure don't have problems with those that don't like my school! anyhow, that is behind us...i sincerely hope this can be a civil, informative discussion!

just answer the questions. time will tell what becomes of st chris. however, they (you) have a way of evading questions or becoming personal and vague when pinned down.

the propagand a issue is also real...i mean, students at every school typically have good and bad things to say. this is true at harvard, oxford, the carib, wherever...but i have yet to see anybody at st chris express even a small question. they get mad at you when you point out an inconsistency or ask a question! also, the level of detail provided sure seems to be far beyond what some first year would know... i mean, the school could be that great...but it would be the first ever! so, the level of suspicion is high for admin, or recruiters, or maybe brainwashed students. however, i do believe you are a student, but i still suspect that some of the other posts are generated by administration. no proof, just a personal suspicion.

i think st chris could be a good school. the problem they have is trying to be something they are not. they are not luton. they are not in the same league as the established schools (ie st george, auc and ross). they claim the most US clinical sites, hey claim good pass rates and matches with no proof. the new mexico lie on the website. the pics of another school on the wbsite. the several emails i have from ex students, and my good freind who was a student, and their negative feeliings. i could go on...currently, st chris is a new school with limited results, that also seems to lie a lot...that does not sound too promising to me!

i am sure that this will start some flame war, but that is not the intent. i swear, if you guys would just come up with some straight no BS answers people would listen. st chris does not have to be the best yet! in fact, there is no way it could or should be....maybe later. for now, just deal with people honestly, without freaking out, and realize that as much faith as you have, as much as you like your school, you guys have TONS to prove.

good luck.

Try to keep things on the ISSUE OF THE SCHOOL, folks.

no offense meant here, but it seems to me that st chris is trying to sell itself as Luton...it is great if you use the facilities and some profs give lectures...say it like that.

The university is not trying to sell itself as Luton. They have gone through full affiliation with the university and are working together to establish a new model of education for international medical schools.



having a luton id does not make you a student. for example, in california, anyone from the community can enroll at some classes in the state colleges. you get an id, you can use the facilities. but, the classes do not count toward graduation,



That would be auditing a course or taking a community based program. Our medical school does not offer such courses. We take real classes and are registered with the university.

Again, you're trying to compare the US educational system to the UK. The two things may seem similar but they are different. In the US, foreign schools can not operate in conjunction with US schools because of strict legislation. That is why Ross wasn't able to open their campus in Wyoming. However in the UK, such relationships can exist because it is part of the collegiate system and it promotes intellectual exchange.

Originally posted by mtt
However in the UK, such relationships can exist because it is part of the collegiate system and it promotes intellectual exchange.

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People are getting a little more heated than necessary!

1) The collegiate system between colleges at Oxford/Cambridge is definitelly, 100% different from the system/relationship between St. Chris and King's College. So the relationship between Luton and St. Chris, is it closer to the former or the later?

2) Does your diploma say "St. Chris College of Medicine, Univ. of Luton"? That is called "full-affiliation." Just like, King's College, Univ. of London (or Imperial College, Univ. of London; University College London, Univ. of London). Otherwise, it is not. I studied abroad in UK for a year so I know what UK collegiate system and full-affiliation mean.

3) Can Marcus or mtt post a school e-mail address instead of hotmail or yahoo where people can just create an e-mail account? I am sure more perspective students are eager to e-mail you guys. After all, it is a heck a lot better living in Uk than in the Carribean.

this post is from another forum, but certainly concerns me as to the ethics of your administration. I only supply the link.
please refute or admit.

Almost Correct In Your Assessment
by Class of 1998 (no login)
Dear Scott:
As old time Saba, your assessments are pretty good. We were well treated when I was at Saba and when I rotated with other schools (except St. Georges)it was apparent that I had made a good choice. Your list is a bit off-St. Chris is nothing laudable. The owner, Paul Leone, was kicked out of Saba for cheating. I know, I was there. Having a few clerkships doth not make a medical school. Good luck guy.


Posted on Nov 25, 2002, 5:31 PM
from IP address 205.188.209.103

http://www.perfectdoctors.com/saba.htm

I believe TheWonderer understood it best, but not fully. He said:

"Each college at Oxford and Cambridge is independent. They all pretty much offer all the different "majors" found at the university ...

Yes, St Christopher's College of Medicine is an independent body within the University of Luton system but, it is not a mere landlord agreement. The only thing TheWonderer didn't understand is the fact that there are foreign colleges in the UK operating about that promote diversity. As such, St Christopher's will dictate their own programs but will work with their partner (the Univ of Luton) fully to accomplish their goals. The relationship appears to be stable and should grow as time goes on.

Now as for what NeilC said:

mike come on....there are questions being asked, and they are not being answered.

This is not true. I took the time to answer TheWonderer's questions as thoroughly as possible during exam week. I'm a first semester student and I will try my best to answer all your questions. If you make any immature posts or say stupid things, you'll be ignored! Such individuals do not represent the college and their opinions are false.

Now to finish with the TheWonderers questions:



People are getting a little more heated than necessary!

1) The collegiate system between colleges at Oxford/Cambridge is definitelly, 100% different from the system/relationship between St. Chris and King's College. So the relationship between Luton and St. Chris, is it closer to the former or the later?


Our relationship with King's College is not a full affiliation. It is just an affiliation (agreement) between the two colleges. It is not like the relationship between St Chris and the Univ of Luton which is like a partnership. At King's College we are restricted from entering some facilities (like the library, etc..) Gross anatomy lab and neuroanatomy lab are held there. All supplies are provided to the students and they study on real cadavers. St Chris is offering first year classes there but, I don't know how long it will last since we're in the process of building a permanent facility separate from the undergraduate campus. The program at King's is wonderful and the instructors are great. If St Chris is going to have gross labs in Luton, it will have to go through a long and lengthy process to get approval to store cadavers in the city. The problem is the city's tight rules and the fact that Luton is a big religious city.



2) Does your diploma say "St. Chris College of Medicine, Univ. of Luton"? That is called "full-affiliation." Just like, King's College, Univ. of London (or Imperial College, Univ. of London; University College London, Univ. of London). Otherwise, it is not. I studied abroad in UK for a year so I know what UK collegiate system and full-affiliation mean.


Unfortunately, I don't know the answer to this question but, you shouldn't be fixated on what a piece of paper will say. What will dictate your own success as a physician is how hard you work! No school will teach you everything. You will dictate your own success. Again, I'm only a first semester student finishing up in a couple of weeks. It will be awhile before I see that degree. But to tell you the truth, I don't care what it says. It will probably say St Christopher's and England. I don't know about the Luton part. Ask the president or a recent graduate in our program if that will comfort your emotions.




3) Can Marcus or mtt post a school e-mail address instead of hotmail or yahoo where people can just create an e-mail account? I am sure more perspective students are eager to e-mail you guys. After all, it is a heck a lot better living in Uk than in the Carribean.


You can email me at any time:


[email][email protected]
[/EMAIL]

Please put a recognizable title in the subject line like:
St Chris: ...whatever....

I will try to answer all your questions and direct you to other people in the program. You won't find all your answers on the Web or through our administrative staff. You need to talk to the students, teachers, and president directly.

RE:


Now as for what NeilC said:

mike come on....there are questions being asked, and they are not being answered.

This is not true. I took the time to answer TheWonderer's questions as thoroughly as possible during exam week. I'm a first semester student ........




Oops, I made an error. I meant to say:

I took the time to answer Global Disrobal's questions ....

Sorry Global. Anyways, I answered yours and TheWonderer's.

Originally posted by mtt
The only thing TheWonderer didn't understand is the fact that there are foreign colleges in the UK operating about that promote diversity. As such, St Christopher's will dictate their own programs but will work with their partner (the Univ of Luton) fully to accomplish their goals. The relationship appears to be stable and should grow as time goes on.

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Thanks for the answers. Well, I admit that I don't know much about how foreign colleges in the UK cooperate with British universities!

[it] is like a partnership

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Ah, now we are getting to more accurate definitions.

"Partnership" does not equal "full affiliation."

If it did, then students would, in fact, be able to claim after their name things such as

St. Christopher's College of Medicine,
University of Luton

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As things stand now, such an assertion would indeed be overstatement and misleading.

i still don't get this "partnership" or "affiliation" thing. to me, it looks like st chris is leveraging a relationship that simply allows st chris students to use the facilities at luton. i read these phrases like "exchange of ideas" and it really makes me wonder what ideas could be exchanged. no offense, but st chris is an offshore school, chartered in senegal and catering to US students who did not get into the US. that alone is no biggie, but i don't see where the ideas are coming from that are going to be exchanged. i don't see st chris as a big research school, and luton does not have a med school. it seems to be a relationship where st chris rents some rooms, pays some fees and hires some profs for lectures. if there is more to it than that, be specific! exchange of ideas is pretty vague...

i am looking forward to the repy to stephen's email to luton. i am also pretty sure that they do not approve of students who have never even applied to luton implying that they are students by posting it after their name...

anyhow, i think the luton perspective will clear it up! i think by now we get the st chris perspective. it is interesting to see how you cling to luton, yet there is no mention of you anywhere on the luton site, or the kings site either. if it was a true affiliation or relationship, they would be advertising the benefits of the relationship just as much as st chris. let us know what you hear, if you could stephen!

Originally posted by neilc
i. if it was a true affiliation or relationship, they would be advertising the benefits of the relationship just as much as st chris. let us know what you hear, if you could stephen!

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The University ofLuton probably has no idea the propoganda crap being spread here by their "tenants"

I have sent a follow up e-mail to Luton, since I have yet to hear a reply from them.

Ah, now we are getting to more accurate definitions.

"Partnership" does not equal "full affiliation."



That is your interpretation.

When you talk to the president, he'll tell you we have a full affiliation with the university. Those are his words straight from my interview. I personally grilled him in the interview with all sorts of questions. If you take the MSc and PhD program, you'll be under the guidance of the postgraduate program in the Department of Biology and Health Sciences at the University of Luton. However, just like any other medical school (including the States) St Chris is independent in controlling its own operations because we don't want to mix up our operations with any other department. Unfortunately, you just don't get it . Realize you three are not students of this university and as such any opinions you post regarding our college are inaccurate.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
St. Christopher's College of Medicine,
University of Luton
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As things stand now, such an assertion would indeed be overstatement and misleading.

This isn't misleading. It represents the fact we are affiliated with the University of Luton and it differentiates us from our Senegal campus. If someone wanted to contact me, they would know which campus I'm attending.


i still don't get this "partnership" or "affiliation" thing


That's because you're not even a St Chris student. I believe you're related to some Eastern European program. If you're a medical student in Eastern Europe, then please stay out of this thread since you're not a St Chris student. You are not an expert in medical schools around the world and shouldn't give advice to anyone regarding any other school but your own.



And why did the administrator move my new thread?
Are you collaborating with these individuals?

As an administrator you're not suppose to formulate any opinions on this forum or do research for anyone. You are no expert of medical schools around the world. You're suppose to be independent.

you are right, i am not an expert on world med schools, or st chris...but i do have a right to ask questions and post any information i do have. i am not giving advice to anyone about st chris, except to be very careful!prospective students may want to hear more than your sales pitch on the school, which in my opinion leaves some questions to be answered.

you are getting a bit defensive there...seems to be a common thread. i just think it is wrong for a school to play itself off as something it is not, and if st chris is doing this than it will come from those of us who care enough to ask the tough questions, not from taking everything a st chris student says at face value.

there have been numerous previous instances when the school has posted misleading and/or false info. so, excuse me when i do not completely trust everything i get from st chris. a prospective student should listen to info from all sources and then make up his mind based on complete info, not just what the students or admin of the school says.

by the way, i would be willing to bet there is not a single student at the senegal "campus"....who does attend there? you will likely not have to worry about people thinking you are there, and it is misleading and false to say you are a luton student unless you are enrolled at luton, attending luton. merely possesing an ID and using the library does not make you a student!!!

it is strange...most other offshore students welcome discussion, freely admit limitations of the program, do not freak out when a negative is noticed. every time st chris is discussed, some students just can't believe that anyone doubts this school, but the history is clear, there are some doubts out there, and the school is misleading. so, sorry, but that is the point of this forum. to ask questions, and to help reduce the risk of wasting money on a shady school.

also, you have yet to specify what st chris offers luton in this "exchange of ideas" program...methinks it is cash, and that is it!

thanks a lot hifi, i just wet my pants from laughing!!