Advice for Low GPA

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Excelsius

Excelsius

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Only within the last week I found out about my hideous situation. I have been attending a community college for about four years and have over 120 units. Current GPA is 2.96. The reason for low GPA is there was a family tragedy a few years ago and I bombed several classes and got Fs (all of them were higher calculus not required for med school and Cs in chemistry) – my major is in physics. All my physics and bio classes are As with some Bs. Since I found out that AMCAS cares not for repeated grades and counts everything, that drops my GPA to about 2.6. I just calculated my BCPM (hadn't heard about it either) and it is an embarrassing 2.19 – but otherwise, 2.62 if we count the repeats as replacements. In any case, I have already been grilled about my grades in another forum and many said either Caribs or DO (without a post baccalaureate), however, I still really want to get an MD from a US school. This year I am transferring, but given the large number of units completed, I have to complete at least 68 units of all As to raise my crappy GPA to 3.0 (I'm not even talking about the horrid BCPM).
I have very good LORs, work experience (NASA, law, etc), volunteer work at hospital, and am great at writing essays (I publish and edit articles written by attorneys). Will start research as soon as I transfer. I am assuming that even with close to 4.0 at the transfer school, med schools won't look at my app and won't care about any personal circumstances. Is that true? I am still going to try my luck and apply after graduating.

My next question is this: I know that post baccs are supposed to help a lot. Could you please tell me if post bacc programs will see my GPA as 2.6 or 2.96? This is because after 68 units of As my non-AMCAS GPA will be 3.3, by which time I will qualify for very good pre-med post baccs like the one from Georgetown. If I do close to 4.0 at a post bacc, will it be much easier for me to get into US med school? What about the Ivies? I know that they really look into student personalities and I am hoping that overcoming an adversity will be a good plus for them.

I know that I have to get my MCATs over 32-35, which I can do. Once you master Quantum Mechanics, you can do pretty much everything else (just have to get back on track with my chemistry).
I'm from CA and 23. Any advice for doing the right things to become competitive would be appreciated. I am starting to work on this right away, even though I still haven't heard from transfer universities.


P.S.: I have had to work full time and attend full time to college during most of my time there.
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Schools will see everything, including a post-bac split.

Do well on your MCAT and apply broadly.
 
Thanks for the fast response. I am so relieved to not be grilled on the first one. But I am sure, they are coming my way. I can understand that. So many of you are such excellent students with great GPAs and MCATs that still don't get in and you have every right to be annoyed by blimps on the graph like me. Alas, sometimes you can't control what's going to happen around you in your life...
 
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I'm not meaning to be harsh, but you may want to come to terms with the idea that you will not be able to get into a US allo school, and definitely not an Ivy. I think it would even be a stretch for you to get accepted at an osteo school with your GPA the way it is...even osteo schools are hovering around a 3.5+ average for most of the better and more respected ones.

Buckle down, try your hardest to change what you can, but don't set yourself up for years of truly hard work to be let down. Spend a couple years trying to fix that GPA if at all possible, then truly appraise where you have a decent shot of getting accepted. Even with a great personality, you have to pass the initial number screens to get an interview, and then it's an uphill battle for applicants with low stats even at that stage. Work hard, and good luck! :luck:

Edit: I wanted to mention something about the repeated courses you took- AMCAS (the company that runs the primary application you will send out to all allo schools) does not count the repeated grade as a replacement grade. Say you got a D the first time, and an A the second, it would show both and they both get figured into your overall GPA (so it would be like a C+ overall). Also, BCPM is looked at as heavily as your overall GPA when applying- they expect it to be about equal to your overall, maybe .1 or .2 lower.
 
I think that before you go on, you need to take a good hard look at why you're doing so poorly now. To have a 2.1 GPA in 120 credits, it wasn't just one or two semesters that you screwed up. It's optimistic to think you can go from that to a high GPA without figuring out what's wrong. Maybe you should change your major to salvage your grades.
 
scowdeva, do you really think that I can't get into any US MD schools after doing close to 4.0 in the last two years of undergrad and a high score on MCAT? Well what about after completing a post bacc with great scores? From what I have read (and seen some of the MD profiles), Ivies do look at personal matters and how people are able to overcome them. And yes, I know that AMCAS counts all the grades. That's why my GPA dips so much.

Josh, my overall GPA in those units is 2.6. The reason my science GPA is lower is because I received three Fs and a D in the higher math classes (linear algebra, differentials, etc). This happened due to a family tragedy followed by an unsuccessful surgery. Everything has been going uphill since the last year. The problem is solved. But I know that the only way I can get into a good school is first they have to LOOK at my application. Maybe the possibility with a 3.0 is low, but I have seen several profiles with low GPAs getting into Ivies. Plus, I am going to complete a post bacc., at which GPA med schools are supposed to look separately from undergrad. You mean to tell me that an excellent performance in post bacc, upper undergrad, and MCAT still won't be good enough? That will definitely be a cruel and unusual punishment, even by the Ivies. So I am going to apply to med schools once after I graduate, and then again after I finish the post bacc (in three years). I am not so crazy to spend my time and money on that only to not get into any good med school, or at least any med school at all (US MD).
 
(1) If your uGPA is 2.6 and your BCMP GPA is 2.2, you've certainly got your work cut out for you. As you may know, the average GPA for matriculants now hovers around a 3.65, so you're well below there. Lots of post-bac classes, as you explained, will only help so much given your large number of credits taken.
(2) You may have a post-bac program mixed up with an SMP - which is a special Master's program that may help towards getting into med school, Typically your GPA should be at least a 3.0, though.
(3) You really need to consider DO or Caribbean schools (if you're concerned about the "MD") as the MD allopathic schools will count all your grades, as you correctly calculated. The DO schools will take the newer, improved grade and thus it's much easier to retake classes and improve your GPA.
(4) Please don't get hung up on "name" med schools (e.g. the Ivy League med schools, which by the way don't all have the same reputation at their undergrad counterparts). At this point, just focus on getting that GPA up.
(5) Needless to say, you need to rock the MCAT.
(6) An upward trend will definitely help, but again, your GPA is well below the average so you've got some work to do.

Best of luck.
 
A 2.19 BCPM and a 2.6 uGPA will not get you into an "Ivy" no matter how many post-baccs you do. You are going to have to set your sights a bit lower than Harvard if you really want to become a physician. IMO you are way to caught up on going to "Ivies" when you really need to get your GPA up to Carib standards before even thinking about stateside medical schools.
 
ok thank you. I will get back to this topic in a year or so after I am through with most of my school, Meanwhile, if there are any other comments, please welcome to post them. One question I had is whether Med Schools give Ivy undergrad GPAs higher leverage than lower ranking school GPAs. A few people have said that Med Schools don't care, but I don't know how accurate that is.

Thanks for all the info.
 
Excelsius said:
ok thank you. I will get back to this topic in a year or so after I am through with most of my school, Meanwhile, if there are any other comments, please welcome to post them. One question I had is whether Med Schools give Ivy undergrad GPAs higher leverage than lower ranking school GPAs. A few people have said that Med Schools don't care, but I don't know how accurate that is.

Thanks for all the info.
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Are you transferring from your CC to an Ivy League school?
 
I had a similar experience to yours in that I bombed my freshman year because of a family tragedy and ended up with an F in a chemistry class and a few other poor grades. It has haunted me to no end. I got my GPA up to around a 3.3 and I got a 38 on the MCAT (98th percentile) plus I was the primary author on a published paper, did research abroad, and had tons of clinical experience, and it was still really really hard for me. I ended up getting in but it was by the skin of my teeth. I applied to close to 20 schools and I was rejected pre-secondary from a lot of them. Even a lot of my "safety schools".

What I'm saying is if you're not even sure you can get your GPA up to a 3.0, you're going to have a hard time. I'd say if its really what you want to do then go all out for it. But don't get yourself too set on an MD. There are a lot of good DO programs that I think you could get into if you do well enough on the MCAT and everything. And you'll still be a doctor.
 
Hey why not do a Masters program in a science related subject at a medical school? so that way they can see you can do upper level science work. I have met someone that graduated from undergrad with a 2.4 GPA. He partied so much and didnt really care for his classes and whatnot. He did a masters in phyisology at University of Cinnicati and got a 4.0. and he applied and got into medical school. There are so many options out there...and i think you just have to do your research. Go to amcas.org and look at the post bacc programs they have. It is not too late for you to get into a good US allo school. DO NOT GIVE UP!!!!!
 
Excelsius said:
ok thank you. I will get back to this topic in a year or so after I am through with most of my school, Meanwhile, if there are any other comments, please welcome to post them. One question I had is whether Med Schools give Ivy undergrad GPAs higher leverage than lower ranking school GPAs. A few people have said that Med Schools don't care, but I don't know how accurate that is.

Thanks for all the info.
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Some med schools can give up to .2 or .3 onto your GPA if you went to one of the top schools (I know this only for applicants from my school, which is consistently a top 10)...but I don't know if this applies to the top schools' post-bac programs...so unless you are transferring to an Ivy, I don't know if this is relevant to your situation.
 
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Excelsius said:
ok thank you. I will get back to this topic in a year or so after I am through with most of my school, Meanwhile, if there are any other comments, please welcome to post them. One question I had is whether Med Schools give Ivy undergrad GPAs higher leverage than lower ranking school GPAs. A few people have said that Med Schools don't care, but I don't know how accurate that is.

Thanks for all the info.
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I've talked to several people on admissions committees about this issue and while an Ivy league GPA probably means more than a junior college, it doesn't mean much more than any other university from what I've gathered. In fact, some of them ( Harvard and Yale) are known for grade inflation and I've heard a 3.8 there is considered like a 3.6 or so somewhere else. I know I'll probably have Harvard and Yale people jumping down my throat now but that's just what admissions people have told me.

Also, you mentioned that you were hoping that "overcoming adversity" would be a plus for admissions committees. I wouldn't bet on it. I was hoping the same thing and to be honest it seemed like most people don't really care. They like it if you overcame adversity and still pulled off good grades, but if the adversity sank you, they don't seem to have much sympathy. Some schools will look at your application holistically, but that's only if you can get past the first few rounds, which are based mostly on GPA and MCAT.
 
DrChuck24 said:
Hey why not do a Masters program in a science related subject at a medical school? so that way they can see you can do upper level science work. I have met someone that graduated from undergrad with a 2.4 GPA. He partied so much and didnt really care for his classes and whatnot. He did a masters in phyisology at University of Cinnicati and got a 4.0. and he applied and got into medical school. There are so many options out there...and i think you just have to do your research. Go to amcas.org and look at the post bacc programs they have. It is not too late for you to get into a good US allo school. DO NOT GIVE UP!!!!!
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An SMP can greatly help your chances if you do well.

But if you're talking about a "normal" Master's, well, that usually counts for very little in the admissions process - it's considered more of a "nice extra-curricular."

Zoroaster said:
They like it if you overcame adversity and still pulled off good grades, but if the adversity sank you, they don't seem to have much sympathy. Some schools will look at your application holistically, but that's only if you can get past the first few rounds, which are based mostly on GPA and MCAT.
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Very good points.

By and large, adcoms like it if you can maintain decent grades while going through adversity. They don't like it as much when said adversity causes your grades to drop. And while extenuating circumstances may always give potential leeway, it's true that many schools have GPA/MCAT filters that you'll have to pass through first.
 
Zoroaster, if in addition to that you had good LORs and a great personal statement explaining the freshman year, then it is bleaker for me. The only comfort is the occasional low GPA applicant getting into not only regular, but the top med schools as well (non-minority). As for the adversity not affecting the grades, yes, that would be ideal, but very difficult when your complete financial dependence changes overnight...

Unfortunately, even a regular university is considered to be "higher" than a CC. Maybe this could help me somewhat if they see i screwed up only at a CC and did better at a regular university.

That's exactly my goal: to get to the point where I can pass through the filter and have my application looked at. Top schools sometimes can afford to look at more diversity since they may not be as obsessed about the rankings than the lower tier schools, which are trying to get to the top all the time.

I am now confused. What does SMP stand for? I was told that Masters sucks as well and to do a post bacc. So are you saying now that a certain Masters can be better than a post bacc?
 
Excelsius said:
Only within the last week I found out about my hideous situation. I have been attending a community college for about four years and have over 120 units. Current GPA is 2.96. The reason for low GPA is there was a family tragedy a few years ago and I bombed several classes and got Fs (all of them were higher calculus not required for med school and Cs in chemistry) – my major is in physics. All my physics and bio classes are As with some Bs. Since I found out that AMCAS cares not for repeated grades and counts everything, that drops my GPA to about 2.6. I just calculated my BCPM (hadn’t heard about it either) and it is an embarrassing 2.19 – but otherwise, 2.62 if we count the repeats as replacements. In any case, I have already been grilled about my grades in another forum and many said either Caribs or DO (without a post baccalaureate), however, I still really want to get an MD from a US school. This year I am transferring, but given the large number of units completed, I have to complete at least 68 units of all As to raise my crappy GPA to 3.0 (I’m not even talking about the horrid BCPM).
I have very good LORs, work experience (NASA, law, etc), volunteer work at hospital, and am great at writing essays (I publish and edit articles written by attorneys). Will start research as soon as I transfer. I am assuming that even with close to 4.0 at the transfer school, med schools won’t look at my app and won’t care about any personal circumstances. Is that true? I am still going to try my luck and apply after graduating.

My next question is this: I know that post baccs are supposed to help a lot. Could you please tell me if post bacc programs will see my GPA as 2.6 or 2.96? This is because after 68 units of As my non-AMCAS GPA will be 3.3, by which time I will qualify for very good pre-med post baccs like the one from Georgetown. If I do close to 4.0 at a post bacc, will it be much easier for me to get into US med school? What about the Ivies? I know that they really look into student personalities and I am hoping that overcoming an adversity will be a good plus for them.

I know that I have to get my MCATs over 32-35, which I can do. Once you master Quantum Mechanics, you can do pretty much everything else (just have to get back on track with my chemistry).
I’m from CA and 23. Any advice for doing the right things to become competitive would be appreciated. I am starting to work on this right away, even though I still haven't heard from transfer universities.


P.S.: I have had to work full time and attend full time to college during most of my time there.
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What did you only figure out last week? Not clear...

Why the obsession with "top" schools, Ivies, etc? Your goal should be acceptance to any MD/DO program that will take you...

Read the MSAR cover to cover.
 
Well, I read all of these replies and I agree with about everything. You need to really think about the low tier schools/DO/ and even the Carib schools.

Also, it might help you if you watch "Walk Hard: The Dewey Cox Story" and then you live the rest of your days walking hard..... It could help....
 
If math classes are what are pulling your BCPM down, consider DO strongly because AACOMAS does not calculate math classes...they calculate just biology, chem, and physics. Also, if you retook any classes it will replace the original grade with the new one, not average the two.

Also, getting a regular masters is definitely not better than an SMP.

Best of luck to you!
 
if people are so sure their excuse is legit, why don't they get their grades removed?
 
Josh, my overall GPA in those units is 2.6. The reason my science GPA is lower is because I received three Fs and a D in the higher math classes (linear algebra, differentials, etc). This happened due to a family tragedy followed by an unsuccessful surgery. Everything has been going uphill since the last year. The problem is solved.
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If you have 120 credits at 2.6, you're going to need ~ another 120 at a 4.0 just to get your application LOOKED at. That's not easy to do. I doubt it's even a reasonable expectation. We're not telling you this to be mean. We're telling you because most of us have been in your shoes.

I had a 2.7ish GPA when I graduated college without taking a single science course. I went to work for 10 years and then returned to school to become a doctor. I've done 50+ credits of all science with a 3.8 (which means my sci GPA is a 3.8 since I never took science as an undergrad) and I will STILL be haunted from grades from 10 years ago even though I'm an entirely different person now. Schools have heard the sob stories (grandma died, I had an appendectomy, I lost my house and lived in my car) and they don't always care, especially MD schools and most especially Ivies who have the pick of the litter when making decisions for acceptance. DO schools care a little more about overall application and they may be more sympathetic so if I was you, I'd get over this Ivy League thing. A lot of profiles on MDApps are fake. Just do a search on SDN for the fake mdapps threads and you'll see that.

Get an MSAR (Medical School Admissions Requirement book). It details every school and tells you what the class averages are. I'm look at Harvard right now and the average overall GPA is a 3.85 and the average science GPA is a 3.87. Unless you can pull that GPA of yours (overall and science) up to at the very least a 3.6, I doubt you'll even be looked at by Harvard and probably other Ivies as well.

Again, set your sights lower.

An SMP is a "special master's program" designed for people who want to go to medical school but need to prove academic strength to get there. You'd take a year of classes with the 1st year med students and you'd be graded according to their curve. If you finish successfully, you can get an acceptance to med school. Keep in mind that if you do poorly (3.4 and below, in my opinion), you will probably never be admitted to med school. This should be your very last chance. Don't do it unless you absolutely have to because these classes are tough and if you falter, you've screwed yourself over permanently. No amount of classes after that will overcome you doing poorly in an SMP. That said, Georgetown has a popular SMP program. You need a 3.0+ and a decent MCAT to get in, but you should look it up. AGAIN, DON'T DO THIS UNLESS YOU ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO. IT COULD END YOUR DREAM OF BEING A DOCTOR IF YOU DON'T ACE IT.
 
Lecter said:
if people are so sure their excuse is legit, why don't they get their grades removed?
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Because a lot of schools don't remove grades, regardless of excuse. Besides, even if they did, according to AMCAS, you HAVE to report ALL grades even if your school removed them.
 
Just Joshin said:
Because a lot of schools don't remove grades, regardless of excuse. Besides, even if they did, according to AMCAS, you HAVE to report ALL grades even if your school removed them.
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I haven't read this thread and don't know the issue, but...if I had a grade expunged and no record of ever having taken the class on my official transcript, I would not mention it on AMCAS...
 
flip26 said:
I haven't read this thread and don't know the issue, but...if I had a grade expunged and no record of ever having taken the class on my official transcript, I would not mention it on AMCAS...
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We're not talking a grade. We're talking 120 credits. If schools ever found out (and with 120 credits that mysteriously disappeared, they very well might), he'd be black-balled and if he already got in, he'd be expelled and never accepted again.
 
Just Joshin said:
We're not talking a grade. We're talking 120 credits. If schools ever found out (and with 120 credits that mysteriously disappeared, they very well might), he'd be black-balled and if he already got in, he'd be expelled and never accepted again.
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Who is asking that question? I skimmed the thread and don't see where anybody asked if it would be possible to get 120 credit hours wiped out...

Sometimes the direction that these threads go in baffles me...I will leave this one to the experts, the SDN peanut gallery.

FWIW, I have read the OP's first post 3 times now and still don't know what he is asking...
 
flip26 said:
Who is asking that question? I skimmed the thread and don't see where anybody asked if it would be possible to get 120 credit hours wiped out...

Sometimes the direction that these threads go in baffles me...I will leave this one to the experts, the SDN peanut gallery.

FWIW, I have read the OP's first post 3 times now and still don't know what he is asking...
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He has 120 community college credits with a 2.6 GPA and a 2.1 science GPA. He wants to know what he has to do to get in to an Ivy League medical school. He says he has a reason for the poor grades. Someone said that if his excuse is good, why doesn't he have them removed. If you have a 2.6 with 120 credits, it isn't like you can just have one or two classes removed to bump your GPA.
 
Just Joshin said:
He has 120 community college credits with a 2.6 GPA and a 2.1 science GPA. He wants to know what he has to do to get in to an Ivy League medical school. He says he has a reason for the poor grades. Someone said that if his excuse is good, why doesn't he have them removed. If you have a 2.6 with 120 credits, it isn't like you can just have one or two classes removed to bump your GPA.
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Maybe someone is thinking of "academic bankruptcy" allowed in some schools where after some time (10 years) people are given a fresh start. But even in those programs, your old grades follow you to your grade...it is not possible to expunge an entire academic record for AMCAS purposes...
 
Excelsius said:
scowdeva, do you really think that I can't get into any US MD schools after doing close to 4.0 in the last two years of undergrad and a high score on MCAT? Well what about after completing a post bacc with great scores? From what I have read (and seen some of the MD profiles), Ivies do look at personal matters and how people are able to overcome them. And yes, I know that AMCAS counts all the grades. That's why my GPA dips so much.
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So, the last two years would give you what, a 4.0 (which honestly won't happen, MAYBE a 3.9 if you really fix what was wrong, but I'll go with the 4.0) in say 80 credits, to give you 200 to graduate with? So, a little math: 120 credits at a 2.6 for your overall, and let's say 100 credits of a 2.1 for your BCPM. With that extra 80 credits at a 4.0, that would give you a 3.16 overall GPA and a 2.94 if all those extra 80 credits counted as BCPM.

Now, do you think you would be good to go for Ivy schools with a 3.16 GPA and a 2.94 BCPM? Those numbers are still far too low, even on the very bottom threshold for the low end DO schools, and very low for carib MD schools. I'm really not trying to be mean, but you need to stop putting so much weight into the few profiles you have found that match what you think your situation is going to be. Honestly, anyone can post anything they want on those profiles, and it doesn't make them true.

It also is not going to look good to adcoms that your grades were that low at a CC. They generally regard CCs to be much, much easier than university work (not starting anything, this is what I have been told by more than one school, to not take prereqs at a CC because it's cheaper because it's considered watered down).

I really can feel for your situation, as I had one semester myself that was hell on earth and it really impacted my GPA. Details are in my MDApps if you're interested. Honestly, though, very few schools have given me any leeway with this, and I was hospitalized for a significant chunk of the semester. Not to mention that my GPA is just under a 3.5, and they have expressed that they think that is too low nowadays. Without one crappy semester, my GPA would be ~3.65 today...but you can see how my application cycle went.
 
flip26 said:
I haven't read this thread and don't know the issue, but...if I had a grade expunged and no record of ever having taken the class on my official transcript, I would not mention it on AMCAS...
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That's not how it works here. If you even open the exam book at my school, regardless if you just found out THAT morning that a family member had died or otherwise, the grade will stand. Grades are never removed.

This isn't really relevant to the OP who has many sub-par grades.

I would tell the OP to own his past grades and do not make excuses for them. You made those grades, and they are all going to count. Don't pass them off as nothing, you will have to accept them, show that you accept them, and then show that they no longer define you. That last part is going to take a lot of work on your part. Probably 2 more years of another undergraduate major and then an SMP year (if you really really want MD), or, you should probably retake the classes you got a C or lower in and then apply broadly and focus on DO school.

Is it possible for you to get into an MD school? Yes. Is it likely? Well, that's going to depend on if you are realistic enough with yourself with respect to how much work you are really going to have to do to make it happen. Be prepared to go overseas, be prepared to rock a 4.0 for the next three years in undergard/SMP and be prepared to be disappointed for a few years...

Good luck.
 
From what I can gather, you took multiple quarters/semesters and did poorly in them. Not just one semester, but a couple. Sometimes a person deals with tragedy during one semester but the adcoms are not going to look positively on the fact that you didn't withdraw if your situation was as bad as you are saying, I would guess it might cause them to doubt your story.

Also, you haven't taken the MCAT yet. I've taken some CC classes before and they generally are much easier than university classes. You would have to have an amazing MCAT score to have any thought of acceptance. Have you taken any practice tests? I know that the MCAT doesn't test depth of knowledge, but having intense classes and doing well in them would help you in preparation the MCAT. Gen Chem is a major part of the MCAT and if you did poorly in it, you will have to really relearn a lot of the material to do well on the MCAT.
 
Thank you so much for all the wonderful suggestions. I am not obsessed with the top schools, but I will still try to get into them, if I can, of course.

I have a few specific questions:
1.Do post bacc's or SMPs look at ONLY at the repeated grade (i.e., they don't count the Fs)?
2.Do most of you agree that an SMP is better than a Post-Bacc? Please tell me why.
3.Will my SMP courses (post-bacc?) count as credit towards medical school so that I don't have to retake them there?
4.Does it matter which SMP I go to (Drexel vs Georgetown)
5.Is there an Ivy SMP or post-bacc that guarantees admission to their med school after successful completion?
6.Do most of you think that the lowest GPA I can afford in SMP is 3.4?


A few clarifications: Josh, all I need to do is remove only about 20 units of Fs. After that my GPA is almost 3.0, INCLUDING BCPM (a little higher). I have NOT bombed all my classes and do NOT have to change 120 units of grades. That is insane!! Only about four courses. My school says that they can give me a "forgiveness" for one semester, which is basically not counting one semester into GPA, but the grades still show. Obviously that won't help with MD. I plan to do well at the next university, and then write to the Dean of my previous college, or even the school board, and ask for expungement because those few units might just prevent me from becoming a doctor, as it is becoming painfully clear. And of course, if they expunge those four classes, I won't be reporting them to AMCAS. That's not a violation of anything. Did you know that there are schools that actually ALLOW expungement? That wouldn't make it fair for the rest of us.

Josh, I have done all the calculations. Everything is in Excel interactively, that's why I know exactly what I need to get the GPA I want. Currently, after 68 units of A's I'll get a 3.0 overall. After 120 units of As, my GPA will be 3.18. And yes, I'll also say that it will take about 290 units to get 3.5, at which point I'd be in a "regular shape." But that's not happening. As you said, an SMP is more intense. It is so lame to pay so much attention to undergrad GPA if someone completes their SMP very successfully.
I know that some profiles are fake. Most are not. Also, MSAR GPA medians are inflated. The actual ones are lower than they appear there (including MCATs). What would be helpful is to see the GPA of ALL the applicants who were accepted. I personally have noticed some trends of people getting accepted to Ivy MDs with sub 3.4 if they came from an Ivy undergrad. So much for Ivies not mattering for MD schools.

I will also add that CC is NOT easier than regular university, at least not mine. Many students who transferred to UCs after my CC come back and say how easier it is there. UC teachers and admissions know it as well. That's why transferring is easy. Maybe MD schools will change their opinion in the future. The way things are, it is not unlikely that many CCs can have tougher courses than Harvard and it's only going to become worse, given how Larry Summers was kicked out.
 
And of course, if they expunge those four classes, I won't be reporting them to AMCAS. That's not a violation of anything.
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It most certainly IS a violation. AMCAS requires that you report ALL grades, whether or not your school has expunged them. If you get caught, you'll be out of med school for good. Some schools even say they'll revoke your degree after graduation if you got in with fraudulent credentials.

2.Do most of you agree that an SMP is better than a Post-Bacc? Please tell me why.
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A post-bacc is for people who didn't major in science, not for someone who plans to do that. It's for career-changers or people who decided late in undergrad that they wanted to go to med school. An SMP is a Master's program for people who want to go to med school and need grade rehabilitation.

6.Do most of you think that the lowest GPA I can afford in SMP is 3.4?
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Given your track record thus far, I think you're screwed if you get lower than a 3.6, frankly.

5.Is there an Ivy SMP or post-bacc that guarantees admission to their med school after successful completion?
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No. You'll be hard-pressed to find any SMP that guarantees anything. Some formal post-baccs (the ones who are for people who've never taken science before) have linkage programs, but those post-baccs won't look at you.

After 120 units of As, my GPA will be 3.18.
Click to expand...

Which is just barely enough to pass the screening. I'm still confused why you don't want to think about DO or the Carib.

Also, MSAR GPA medians are inflated. The actual ones are lower than they appear there (including MCATs).
Click to expand...

This is based on....?
 
Thanks for the SMP clarification. As for the screening, I shouldn't have much problem passing it after a good year at SMP, according to what people are saying. If I still would be screened, then an SMP is just a waste of time now, isn't it?

GPAs are inflated - based on math. I would assume most people in this forum to know about this, but I could explain as well...

Will wait for answers for some of my other questions. Of course, if no one knows, I'd probably have to talk to a pre-med adviser, which I have never had thus far and won't have access to until after transferring.

An interesting profile: http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=8517 Not even an SMP or high MCAT. Just great ECs, accepted at Tufts, waitlisted in Ivy...
 
Excelsius said:
GPAs are inflated - based on math. I would assume most people in this forum to know about this, but I could explain as well...
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What? When I said, "based on" I meant what are you basing that assertion on. Anyway, what does it mean GPAs inflated based on math? When a school reports their average GPA, that's their average GPA. Inflated based on math doesn't make sense to me.

An interesting profile: http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=8517 Not even an SMP or high MCAT. Just great ECs, accepted at Tufts, waitlisted in Ivy...
Click to expand...

This person went to Princeton. If you went to Princeton and graduated with that GPA and had some of those EC's, maybe you'd get looked at too. You went to a CC with your 2.6. It's just not the same. Are you planning to transfer to an Ivy?
 
Excelsius said:
Thanks for the SMP clarification. As for the screening, I shouldn't have much problem passing it after a good year at SMP, according to what people are saying. If I still would be screened, then an SMP is just a waste of time now, isn't it?

GPAs are inflated - based on math. I would assume most people in this forum to know about this, but I could explain as well...

Will wait for answers for some of my other questions. Of course, if no one knows, I'd probably have to talk to a pre-med adviser, which I have never had thus far and won't have access to until after transferring.

An interesting profile: http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=8517 Not even an SMP or high MCAT. Just great ECs, accepted at Tufts, waitlisted in Ivy...
Click to expand...


I still don't know why you are looking for random mdapplicant profiles that fit what you want to think. People have already told you: a 2.6 won't be enough. A 3.1 won't be enough. You will need a very high SMP GPA (although you need to get above 3.0 to even qualify for the SMP) and a good MCAT to even get into a med school (ANY med school).

The mdapplicant profile you quoted is of a member here. She's a URM...
 
well, that is very interesting. I thought you guys were saying that med schools don't look at the undergrad, that is, Ivy undergrads don't matter. Well, shall we revisit this topic again?

I am at a CC now, but I am transferring to a UC (likely). If AMCAS screens by GPA, then what you said is not valid. If AMCAS screens by GPA AND by school, then I'd be interested to hear as to what others in this forum have to say about it.
 
I am looking at few low GPA profiles to get some idea. I know that they might be irrelevant, but I want to see some cut-offs. I disregard URM, when they are stated as such. If I didn't find any low GPAs getting into med school, then I would have to question whether three years of hard work will get me anywhere. That's all.
 
Excelsius said:
I am looking at few low GPA profiles to get some idea. I know that they might be irrelevant, but I want to see some cut-offs. I disregard URM, when they are stated as such. If I didn't find any low GPAs getting into med school, then I would have to question whether three years of hard work will get me anywhere. That's all.
Click to expand...

Read the MSAR, not mdapps, to determine the likelihood of getting into med school with that GPA.
 
Excelsius said:
well, that is very interesting. I thought you guys were saying that med schools don't look at the undergrad, that is, Ivy undergrads don't matter. Well, shall we revisit this topic again?

I am at a CC now, but I am transferring to a UC (likely). If AMCAS screens by GPA, then what you said is not valid. If AMCAS screens by GPA AND by school, then I'd be interested to hear as to what others in this forum have to say about it.
Click to expand...

Dude, you're either incredibly dense or you're so set in your thinking that you don't WANT to understand. I don't know which.

An Ivy will NOT get you into med school. However, if you're an otherwise outstanding student (great MCAT, great EC's, great clinicals, great LORs, great non-science life experience), then med schools might consider the school you got the crappy GPA from. In these cases, they might say, "hey, it's Johns Hopkins, known for grade deflation," for instance. It's irrelevant to your case. Your 2.6 wasn't in Biomed Engineering at Johns Hopkins where the average GPA in that major is hovering below a 3.0. It was at a CC. It's entirely different.

AMCAS doesn't screen by anything. Med schools do.

Look, do what you want. You're only going to listen to yourself anyway despite all the advice you've been given in this thread. I don't know why people ask questions if they're so unwilling to heed advice.
 
CCs are typically easier than Universities. Maybe your experience is outside the norm but that's the way they are designed.

So here's my question. If you are struggling academically in an undergraduate setting, and anything less than a 3.0 is struggling, why are you so keen on going to medical school? I would suggest you take a long look at yourself and honestly analyze your strengths and weakenesses. Instead of fighting in vain to overcome your limitations, find a that will utilize your strengths.

Linear algebra is really easy. No, you can't do anything if you master quantum mechanics. All you can do is quantum mechanics.
 
I already explained the reason for not doing well in those classes. My comment about quantum mechanics was that if you can understand that, you can understand pretty much everything. The most advanced science courses are higher level physics subjects. And even if you don't have the aptitude, you can still make up with hard work. I have seen some people completely bereft of any logic, yet they got 4.0 because of hard work. Still, we are not discussing philosophy here...

I am considering all of your advice, that's why I am here, Thank you for the SMP suggestion because I had not heard about it before. There was a contradictory advice about Ivies, so I questioned. If there is no consensus on that, then there is no right answer. I wanted to find out about an Ivy SMP vs non-Ivy.

Some of you read this thread only partially and keep questioning the same things. To avoid that, please just answer these questions, if you can:

1. Do post bacc's or SMPs look ONLY at the repeated grade (i.e., they don't count the Fs)?
2. Do most of you agree that an SMP is better than a Post-Bacc? (one person gave a reason, and he probably is right)
3. Will my SMP courses (post-bacc?) count as credit towards medical school so that I don't have to retake them there?
4. Does it matter which SMP I go to (Drexel vs Georgetown)
5. Can I transfer from one Medical School to another?
 
2. SMP is DIFFERENT from PostBac. If you've already finished all your requirements, a postBac program would not help you since you'd be repeating all the same classes again. I'm not sure if you can even be admitted to a PostBac. An SMP would help you significantly more, because you'd be taking higher level classes, both helping you prove that you can handle the curriculum and giving you an edge when you finally get to med school.

3. Some medical school based SMP programs allow credit transfers I think. Mostly likely you'll have to retake the same classes.

4. SMP programs have reputations too. Look around and figure out which program is better.

5. Really, really, really difficult to transfer from one medical school to another. Basically impossible. A few places like Yale may consider transfer if your spouse is in school there or works in the hospital there.
 
Medical Schools are very competitive programs to get into. That being said, your stats so far a a very big sinker attached to your application. You might need to pull a MCAT score in the 40s to get into a school. Just stating the reality of the situation. I'm pulling for you, but keep in the back of your mind not everyone is cut out to be a doctor.
 
Excelsius said:
I will also add that CC is NOT easier than regular university, at least not mine. Many students who transferred to UCs after my CC come back and say how easier it is there. UC teachers and admissions know it as well. That’s why transferring is easy. Maybe MD schools will change their opinion in the future. The way things are, it is not unlikely that many CCs can have tougher courses than Harvard and it’s only going to become worse, given how Larry Summers was kicked out.
Click to expand...
I am currently at a UC, having transferred from a CC. I can agree with you on the fact that at my CC, those science courses were purposely on-par with UC courses, because they wanted to weed out the pre-meds.

However, I don't know how you are planning to transfer from a CC to a UC with that GPA, especially as a science major. You still have some work to do.
 
I will be transferring with physics major. I know that bio is much harder, but that's not my major anyway. Plus I'll be probably going to the lower ranking UCs: UCI, UCR.... Plus there is that TAG, which is a guarantee.
 
Based on the BCPM acronym I am assuming that geology and astronomy are NOT considered to be part of the science GPA.

So anyone knows the answer to question #1?
 
Excelsius said:
Based on the BCPM acronym I am assuming that geology and astronomy are NOT considered to be part of the science GPA.

So anyone knows the answer to question #1?
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Astronomy and Geology do count as part of the BCPM. Might I suggest you do some research on this stuff? Many of your questions are the most basic questions out there that you should be able to answer yourself with some research.

SMPs look at all grades, not just retakes. (Forget post-baccs. Those aren't for you). There is no such thing as an Ivy League SMP. With your current GPA, I think you'd be lucky to get into ANY med school, even with a 4.0 SMP. Maybe you shouldn't be so selective. I don't think you can afford to be.
 
Maybe they are basic for you and some of the SDN veterans, that's why I am asking you guys. I tried to look up BCPM again, and it seems that geology is NOT counted in it (http://www.aamc.org/students/amcas/2008amcasinstructionsrvs.pdf). One of us must be wrong. In either case, I am happier now since my non-AMCAS BCPM increased by .4 and the AMCAS one by 0.2!

I read the Georgtown website and they say that after their SMP, 80% of students get accepted into a med school within two years and 15% of those go to Georgetown Medschool without having to repeat those courses. Maybe if I could get in there and befriend some professors, maybe I could make it, along with LORs and ECs. It is very expensive though, but it seems there is financial aid available (federal).
 
Maybe they are basic for you and some of the SDN veterans, that's why I am asking you guys. I tried to look up BCPM again, and it seems that geology is NOT counted in it (http://www.aamc.org/students/amcas/2...uctionsrvs.pdf). One of us must be wrong. In either case, I am happier now since my non-AMCAS BCPM increased by .4 and the AMCAS one by 0.2!
Click to expand...

Then why didn't you just look it up yourself in the first place?

I don't know why anyone is answering this thread. The OP just seems to want to argue. People gave good advice and the OP has counterpoints on almost all of it. Then he or she asks questions and when someone answers, he tries to prove them wrong.
 
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