Degree question

max418 · Jul 4, 2008

Hello all,

So here's my question. Up until now, I've been dead-set on getting a PhD in clinical psychology. I don't want to pay the $200,000 for a PsyD, even though the degree is more what I'm looking for. My goals are to perform psychotherapy in a private practice in Tucson Arizona with people between the ages of 18 and 60 or so. I don't have any real interest in research. I have enough that I could grind my way through a PhD, but it wouldn't be a ton of fun. I like the idea that the average pay in a private practice for a PhD is 20k per year higher on average, and average pay is 30k per year higher. I would also be interested in administration at some point, but not for quite a while.

However, I don't really want to spend 6 years in a degree that would be a painful grind just for money. I am itching to start practicing, and I think I would go bonkers waiting through the first five years. Now I am trying to decide, first off, whether a PhD or MA is more appropriate, but before I can do that, I would need to know what type of MA I should be looking for. I would like maximum flexibility, and the ability to run a private practice in Arizona. I would also like to attend a school in a greener area than Tucson (California, maybe East Coast or Florida) and I want to go to a school that has a reputable enough program that a PhD program would be excited to get me if I did end up applying to one after 5-10 years of practice with a masters. Currently my GPA is 3.5, past two year GPA will be 3.87 when I graduate in December. I will be taking the GRE's in the next two weeks, and have been averaging 600-650 on verbal and 650-700 on the math.

Does anyone have any suggestions on:
A) PhD vs MA, things I haven't considered or perhaps putting more weight on things I have put less weight on
B) Type of MA
C) Location of MA program, or even how to find a school that has a high percentage of people that go on to PhD's.

Thanks!

thepsychgeek · Jul 5, 2008

A) I'd suggest an M.A., based on the fact that you have so little interest in research. Why bother to get a research degree when you don't need it?
B) Specifically, I would suggest a Master's in Clinical Social Work (MSW-Clinical), though technically that's a terminal degree. However, those who get said MSW and then obtain licensure (LCSW/LICSW and a billion other variations) tend to make a similar salary to those in private practice with a Ph.D./Psy.D (at least in my region, this may not hold true for Arizona). pingouin has extensive experience in that area, she'll probably stop by here and give you a lot of info.
C) There's some great clinical programs both on the east coast and california- UCLA, USC, and many of the CSU's have great programs. Hunter College and Smith automatically spring to mind on the East Coast.

I don't think most people with MSW's go on to Ph.D.'s- many of us are not interested enough in research or teaching to bother, especially due to the small pay difference- so it's hard to say in that regard.

Just my .02- I am kind of an MSW geek though, so other people will have differing suggestions. Counseling or something similar may also work for you.

Are you only wanting the Ph.D. for the pay difference? Especially (and don't take this the wrong way), your GPA, while fabulous, is not the most competitive for a clinical program (which is what you presumably would be applying for), though your GREs are rather impressive. If you only want to be Dr. Max418 for the money and the prestige- I wouldn't bother. You can also work in MH administration with the social work degree, though I'm not sure how high up in management.

Best of luck!

max418 · Jul 5, 2008

Awesome, I really appreciate the feedback!

So now to see if I can clarify a bit further. Based on the math I had been seeing, I had expected that I would make around $20,000-30,000 more per year with a PhD than an MA. Assuming I worked a typical 40 year career, that would amount to around a one million dollar difference over the course of my lifetime (roughly 850,000 after taxes) or approximately a new car or a down-payment on a new house every year. If the only cost for that amount of money was an additional four years of school, then I would be willing to do it. Especially since PhD holders need one year of supervised practice instead of the two years required by someone holding a masters. Roughly a three year difference for a million dollars. If the math does not work out that way, then the finances are much less of a difference. Being Dr. Max418 would be fun, but I definitely wouldn't go through an extra three years of school for it.

It is also true that my GPA is pretty run-of-the-mill for a PhD program. (I don't think they'll care much about my 4.0 in my music minor either) However, I've been talking with several professors with whom I've been doing research over the past year and they have recommended about a dozen schools that are doing research on a type of therapy that I find really interesting- specifically Gestalt Two-Chair therapy or emotion-focus therapies in general. To be honest, I'm more interested in working with them and seeing how they work than I am in researching them, but I am interested enough in the field that I even enjoy the research, albeit to a much lesser-degree than practice.

At this point I have a passing interest in teaching at best. I would like to have the option to teach, but with a masters I could teach at a community college anyway, and I wouldn't be able to stand the bureaucracy at a major university.

I have zero interest in doing research after graduation.

My biggest reason against doing the PhD is that I can crunch these numbers all I want, but then when I step back and remember that life has a huge un-predictable quality, the salary I'm making based on current national averages 40 years from now is completely irrelevant. If I'm good at what I do, I can decide my own salary. I feel like I'm better off diving in and seeing what my own talents and fate/chance/whatever can do, instead of relying on and expecting a degree to pave the way for me.

So I've got this nasty conflict where my brain says "You've got the qualifications to get into a PhD program, you won't have to pay as much because of fellowships, you already know where you'd go, you know you can handle it, you'd make more and you'd have more authority as soon as you entered the field."

And my gut/heart says "Screw that, I'm sick of school, I want to start my career!"

thepsychgeek · Jul 5, 2008

Well, first, look here http://therapists.psychcentral.com/psychcentral/prof_search.php.

You can "find a therapist" using that link, and compare income. It varies a lot from person to person- MSW/MFTs tend to make a bit less, but some are making the same amount or more. It depends on quality of care, I feel.

I'd also like to point out (no offense) that if you're looking for a high income, you're really in the wrong field. I had a professor tell me "Do what you love, the money will follow." And yes, it'll be tough when you first start out. And seriously, if your quality of care is very good, you will be living comfortably, doing something you really enjoy, instead of wrangling research grants and teaching classes, and THEN doing private practice.

max418 · Jul 5, 2008

Huh, of all the places I've looked, I never thought to look at the rates people charge where I actually live. That helps a lot, thanks. The prices seem to have no correlation whatsoever with degrees around here. The least expensive was a PhD and the most was tied for PhD and MFT.

As far as my expectations financially, I have been living for the last four years on $6,000 per year. It has been maximally stressful, and as a result I feel a very strong urge to be financially secure in the future. However, after getting used to a $6,000 per year budget, I suspect I would feel fantastically wealthy if I were making $30,000 per year, and I can expect to make that in virtually any profession. I'm definitely not planning to become a therapist for the money. If I were, I would be going into I/O psych, or getting an MBA and using it to work in human relations in a large corporation. Or perhaps I would go into forensic psychology. I just have no interest in furthering the goals of large corporations. I like people, and working with people. I've been working at a therapeutic group home for abused teenage girls for about six months, and it's been probably the most awesome experience I've had.

thepsychgeek · Jul 5, 2008

🙂 I found that site a while ago, and it cemented by determination in applying to MSW programs!

If you really liked group home work, then I'd say MSW/LCSW, simply because (especially at the beginning before licensure) you'll wind up on the "front lines" helping people, instead of hiding behind a desk working for The Man (well, you will, but in a more immediately helpful way). MFTs do pretty well too, and both of those degrees will get you out helping people pretty quickly,without the research/teaching training.

Whatever you do, I wish you the best of luck.

max418 · Jul 5, 2008

So here's a question. Does it matter where you get your masters degree? I know there are a few organizations that accredit masters programs, and you need a program whose curriculum will allow you to meet licensing standards in your state, but is there anything else one needs to look for? I assume that most people don't really care if their therapist came from a prestigious school or not. So is it really as simple as doing a search for schools in an area that you want that are accredited?

Oh, and I also noticed that most of the masters programs I found in California weren't "Masters in Social work" it was something like "Masters in Psychology- Counseling focus" or "Human Factors" or "Clinical Psychology". What exactly do those degrees mean?

thepsychgeek · Jul 5, 2008

It really doesn't matter at all, so long as the "fit" is good (i.e. meets your needs, which could be Ivy League University or East Bootstrap College). So yes, it's really that simple. Well, Masters in Psych- Counseling is a Counseling degree (master's level professional degree), human factors is similar (though more research based, as far as I know- I don't know much about HF), and Clinical would be something you would need the Ph.D. to practice (a masters in clinical isn't terribly useful). You should be finding MSW programs in California, though, there are many. Try looking at the CSWE website (Council for Social Work Education)- they have a list of accredited schools, organized by state. That's what I did, and you would be surprised by how many there are. Once you find the schools (using said website), look for schools that have CLINICAL or MENTAL HEALTH focus- they will be listed- and apply to those.

I'm glad you remembered to look for accredited programs (for social work, you will want CSWE accreditation... I'm not sure about Counseling), and the websites will generally note that they are X Accredited. You can also email/write/call and ask. Prestige really doesn't matter!

max418 · Jul 7, 2008

Another fantastic site recommendation! That helped a ton.

So how competitive would my application be for a masters program? I don't even really know what they look for, since I've spent all my time working to get into a PhD program.

To summarize-
GPA- 3.5, 3.8 past 60 credits
GRE- Roughly 650 each
Work experience- Therapeutic group home as a BHT for a year and a half, possibly as a BHS by the time I apply. I also have experience in tons of other fields (was a Realtor, built computers, built websites, dug ditches, landscaped, bartended, professional singer, etc).
Volunteer experience- Bussed to Katrina during Spring Break to rebuild, several volunteer thingies locally, including two service fraternities.

I know with PhD's, credentials didn't matter nearly as much as the mood of the interviewer when he/she reads your letter of intent and whether or not you sound interesting to them. As a result, they recommended you apply to 10-15 PhD programs. Are MA's the same way? Also, am I expected to research the professors, find one I want to mentor me and contact him/her well in advance to let them know I am thinking of applying to their program?

thepsychgeek · Jul 7, 2008

max418 said:
Another fantastic site recommendation! That helped a ton.

So how competitive would my application be for a masters program? I don't even really know what they look for, since I've spent all my time working to get into a PhD program.

To summarize-
GPA- 3.5, 3.8 past 60 credits
GRE- Roughly 650 each
Work experience- Therapeutic group home as a BHT for a year and a half, possibly as a BHS by the time I apply. I also have experience in tons of other fields (was a Realtor, built computers, built websites, dug ditches, landscaped, bartended, professional singer, etc).
Volunteer experience- Bussed to Katrina during Spring Break to rebuild, several volunteer thingies locally, including two service fraternities.

With those credentials, you're plenty competitive. 3.0 is generally base minimum, 3.5 is in the competitive range, and are your GREs. In this context, your work experience is going to give you the edge to get in where you want to go. Well, except the bartending and such, but the work in a group home will help. I would also mention the volunteer experience on your CV/resume AND your statement of purpose- SW schools love things related to social welfare & justice, even if that's not what you'll be focusing in.

max418 said:
I know with PhD's, credentials didn't matter nearly as much as the mood of the interviewer when he/she reads your letter of intent and whether or not you sound interesting to them. As a result, they recommended you apply to 10-15 PhD programs. Are MA's the same way?

With your listed stats, you can probably be safe applying to 5-10 schools. MA schools aren't as competitive, so you're more likely to go in. As long as you have good LORs, SOP, and grades, you should be safe.

max418 said:

Also, am I expected to research the professors, find one I want to mentor me and contact him/her well in advance to let them know I am thinking of applying to their program?

Click to expand...

Nope! You can contact the school to get a better feel, but there's no need to have a specific mentor, since no one is required to "take you on" as their individual student in their lab, if that makes sense. Instead, you'll be moving through coursework with much of your cohort, and then 1-on-1 for field training.

arlyt · Jul 7, 2008

So would you say a MS/MA in social work is better than say community counseling in regards to the amount of doors it will open? I often see jobs asking for either a counseling or social work degree. From what I have read at the end of the day it seems like the social work degree is better. But Im still on the fence.

thepsychgeek · Jul 7, 2008

I wouldn't say either is better, but the MSW is generally considered more flexible, both in programming and doors it opens.

pingouin · Jul 9, 2008

thepsychgeek said:
B) Specifically, I would suggest a Master's in Clinical Social Work (MSW-Clinical), though technically that's a terminal degree. However, those who get said MSW and then obtain licensure (LCSW/LICSW and a billion other variations) tend to make a similar salary to those in private practice with a Ph.D./Psy.D (at least in my region, this may not hold true for Arizona). pingouin has extensive experience in that area, she'll probably stop by here and give you a lot of info.

sorry- pingouin's in the process of quitting her jobs, selling the house, packing and moving 2 hours away to start med school. I'm not on here as much or reading as many threads as usual. if there's something someone wants me to answer about MSW stuff, shoot me a PM and I'll add it into the sticky at the top of the forum. also, feel free to actually post your questions into that sticky so we can keep information in one spot...

max418 said:
To summarize-
GPA- 3.5, 3.8 past 60 credits
GRE- Roughly 650 each
Work experience- Therapeutic group home as a BHT for a year and a half, possibly as a BHS by the time I apply. I also have experience in tons of other fields (was a Realtor, built computers, built websites, dug ditches, landscaped, bartended, professional singer, etc).
Volunteer experience- Bussed to Katrina during Spring Break to rebuild, several volunteer thingies locally, including two service fraternities.

I've never been involved in MSW admissions, but from my own application experience, I think you'd be fine. GPA is well within range, the work experience and volunteer experiences are right in line with what they'd want to see.

arlyt said:
So would you say a MS/MA in social work is better than say community counseling in regards to the amount of doors it will open? I often see jobs asking for either a counseling or social work degree. From what I have read at the end of the day it seems like the social work degree is better. But Im still on the fence.

as thepsychgeek said, MSW is not better than a MA counseling degree (or MEd counseling or MFT, etc etc etc), but it does tend to be a more versatile degree. I have lengthy posts on this elsewhere in the forum so feel free to search for that.

thepsychgeek · Jul 9, 2008

Whoop, sorry pingouin! Life sounds hectic!

Degree question

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