Life as a resident at Mass Gen, Hopkins or Duke?

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iron2md

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Are there any residents on here from Mass Gen, Hopkins, or Duke? Or maybe someone with insight as to these residencies? I would like to get the real scoop on how happy the residents are.

I know that they each provide great training, but what is life like as an Anesthesia resident at each of these institutions? Does one have a better schedule than the others, leaving the possibility of time for family/friends? Or does the great training come at the expense of all your free time? If someone has a wife & new baby, will he get to see them or will he basically be living at the hospital???

Is the call schedule a 24-hour call, or is it basically night shift (3P-7A) as it is in some places? What about the frequency of call? What are the typical hours? Do you ever get out relatively early (ie-3PM, etc), or is it 6A - 6P+ all the time?

Any insight you can give would be great! I am strongly considering these programs, but I also don't want to make a choice that will result in me not seeing my family for 4 years. I have heard stories of people choosing "big name" programs only to be miserable in them later on. I wouldn't want that to happen to me.

🙂
 
...Or does the great training come at the expense of all your free time? If someone has a wife & new baby, will he get to see them or will he basically be living at the hospital???
...but I also don't want to make a choice that will result in me not seeing my family for 4 years...

You're applying in anesthesia, right?

FEAR NOT!
You have already cut your work hours in a half compared to some of your resident colleagues in other specialties. Even at one of these programs. So for instance, at one those three places, call is about 4 times a month usually you get 2-3 weekends completely off. Yes it is 24 hour call - frequently you sleep at night for part or most of it. Hours are rarely 6-6, usually shorter. I doubt any one of them is that much different than the others. I guess we could duke it out on this thread to see who takes the absolute least amount of call. I would not focus on that though.

-P
 
Just graduated from Hopkins in June. "Life" as a Hopkins resident starts around 6:15-6:30 am setting up your room. You get the patient back no later than 7:30 am. Morning break (15 min) anywhere from 8:30-10:30 am. Lunch (30 min) anywhere from 11 am to 2 pm. Typically, your room finishes around 3:30 pm to 5:30 pm. If you have an inpatient for the following day, you have to see him/her before you leave which can add 30 minutes easy.

What kind of sucks about the system is the arbitrary nature as to when your room ends. For instance, if your last case is ending around 3:30 pm, you may get an add on case or a case from another room that happens to be running late. You have to then start that case and you may or may not get relieved, keeping you there until 7 or 8 pm possibly. While this extreme scenario doesn't happen all the time, add-ons at the end of the day happen frequently. As a resident, there is basically no incentive to do add on cases other than to show the attendings who will be writing letters for you what a hard worker you are. There is nothing educational about doing cases past 5 pm when you have been working your ***** off all day. You don't make any more money as a resident doing add ons either.

The specialty rotations vary as well. Cardiac anesthesia starts at 5 am when you start setting up your room. Two pump cases later and you're out the door at 7 pm. The 14 hour days never bothered me - what bothered me was having to come back the next morning at 5 am to do it all over again. Pediatric anesthesia tends to run about 1 hour longer than the typically GOR day, so count on doing cases until 4:30 - 6:30 pm on average. Ambulatory anesthesia tends to be the best, with days ending between 2-4 pm. However, they have found a way to spoil that too by making you go to the GOR to help out if you get done early.

Call is fairly reasonable at Hopkins. On average, I remember being on call about once a week overnight with one or two weekend calls per month. Overnight calls usually start by coming in at 7 am for a morning conference. Around noon, you started working by either giving lunches or doing cases. The calls are hit or miss, but I usually got 2-4 hours of sleep on average. Some nights I did nothing, some nights I was up the whole time. The Weinberg call that you take as a CA-2 is less busy. As a CA-2 and CA-3, you take a lot of home call for cardiac, peds and livers.

The faculty are pretty reasonable at Hopkins. Most are nice and want to teach. Some just want to do research. Some are malignant. Hopkins is a huge department which supports multiple types of personalities.

Before I left, one of the big proposals that was supposed to shake up everything was the new educational program. Basically, you would be assigned to one of four "colleges" and each "college" would meet for two hours at the end of a day of the week (i.e., every Monday) to do educational things like simulator lab, journal club, oral boards, etc. The pros of this were that there would a be a coordinated educational program. The cons would be that there would be no hope of ever leaving before 5 pm because you would either be in conference yourself or relieving a fellow resident to go to their conference. I'm not sure where they are on implementing this, but it would be worthwhile to ask on an interview.

If I had to train all over again, I would still pick Hopkins. The training I received has done well for me in private practice so far. I haven't encountered a situation yet that I haven't dealt with in some way before as a resident. There are programs out there where you can coast, but there is only one Johns Hopkins. You work hard while you are there, but you get rewarded when you finish (especially if you decide to do private practice).

Edit: I forgot to mention the hours: typically 60-65 hours a week in the GOR. Add about five for cardiac and peds, about 10 for ICU.
 
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So for instance, at one those three places, call is about 4 times a month usually you get 2-3 weekends completely off. Yes it is 24 hour call - frequently you sleep at night for part or most of it. Hours are rarely 6-6, usually shorter.

Geez. What gas residency program are you at? Sounds like a friggin' country club.

-copro
 
The lifestyle at Hopkins sounds pretty much typical for any "big" program.

If I had my choice, I'd go to Duke. Even if their lifestyle were crappier. The residency is relatively small and the surgical volume relatively high. Lots of regional.

BNE
 
You're applying in anesthesia, right?

FEAR NOT!
You have already cut your work hours in a half compared to some of your resident colleagues in other specialties. Even at one of these programs. So for instance, at one those three places, call is about 4 times a month usually you get 2-3 weekends completely off. Yes it is 24 hour call - frequently you sleep at night for part or most of it. Hours are rarely 6-6, usually shorter. I doubt any one of them is that much different than the others. I guess we could duke it out on this thread to see who takes the absolute least amount of call. I would not focus on that though.

-P

are you doing your residency at some sort of ambulatory surgery center?
 
Geez. What gas residency program are you at? Sounds like a friggin' country club.

-copro

are you doing your residency at some sort of ambulatory surgery center?

the work schedule that precedex posted is about the same as gaspasser2004's description of what it's like at hopkins, which i can confirm (i'm a CA-1). probably don't sleep as much on call. i don't think 60-65 hours a week is a country club at all.

your programs must be brutal. where are you guys at?
 
Thanks gasspasser2004! That was great scoop on life at Hopkins! That doesn't sound like it's too much more intense than many other big programs across the country. Another question-

Are there many within the residency married w/kid(s)? ..and are those that are fairly happy as a resident there?
 
I would estimate that anywhere between 1/4-1/3 of the residency is married with children. About 1/2 are married. Both of the chief residents in my class were married and had children. They worked hard, but had great family lives. The other residents I know who have children also have good family lives by and large. Obviously, the key to this is having an understanding spouse who can deal with the long hours and call. I find it amazing how some of my fellow female residents can be pregnant and give anesthesia, take a short maternity leave and then come back and take breaks to pump breast milk. Absolutely amazing.
 
The lifestyle at Hopkins sounds pretty much typical for any "big" program.

If I had my choice, I'd go to Duke. Even if their lifestyle were crappier. The residency is relatively small and the surgical volume relatively high. Lots of regional.

BNE

I agree that Hopkins is lacking in regional numbers. The group I joined has a Duke graduate who finished this year too and he is much more adept at regional techniques. Every program has its strengths and weaknesses. There is no one program that will create a perfectly polished anesthesia attending straight out of residency. The key is to remain a life long learner and continue to improve even after you finish your residency.
 
the work schedule that precedex posted is about the same as gaspasser2004's description of what it's like at hopkins, which i can confirm (i'm a CA-1). probably don't sleep as much on call. i don't think 60-65 hours a week is a country club at all.

your programs must be brutal. where are you guys at?

I'm not going to say where I'm at. No burned bridges and whatnot. But, suffice to say that, if I had to do it all over again, I would've gone somewhere else knowing what I know now.

I regularly put in 75+ hours/week. That's 6-7 calls per month, occassionally 10-11 days straight. It's usually getting there at 5:45 AM, and not leaving until 6:00-6:30 PM routinely (lucky if you get out at 5:00 PM, but you can expect to stay until 7:30 or 8:00 PM to make up for that). It's calls where you don't even see the inside of the call room... add-ons until 4:00 AM, not to mention covering all in-house traumas, codes, and late add-on pre-ops for the next day.

We've repeatedly tried to address "work quality of life" issues with our PD. It just seems to fall on deaf ears. The response we get is, "Until you're violating ACGME rules, I don't want to hear any complaints." Occassionally, people do pull 80+ hour weeks, but the old "averaged across the month" seems to save their *****e$. And, there is no overtime pay for us... the attendings, yes. No wonder our board scores are going down.

-copro
 
In fact, just tabulated it. In the preceding 7 days that I worked, I put in 80.25 hours. That's a fact.

-copro
 
I agree that Hopkins is lacking in regional numbers. The group I joined has a Duke graduate who finished this year too and he is much more adept at regional techniques. Every program has its strengths and weaknesses. There is no one program that will create a perfectly polished anesthesia attending straight out of residency. The key is to remain a life long learner and continue to improve even after you finish your residency.

I keep hearing that Duke has really strong regional training, but I'm wondering what you think are Hopkin's strong points. I understand it is considered one of the top programs in the country, but what specifically do you think are the key areas of strength compared to other programs?
 
What about MGH? Anyone with current or recent insight into the Mass General program???
 
I know it doesn't have the cache of MGH or JHU but I'd seriously look @ UConn. They work 3 different hospitals and 2 of them are run by private practice groups. You really get a feel for what its like in a busy private practice w/private surgeons as well. 20 minute lap choles can be the norm. Great regional and good variety of cases. Just an FYI for all you MS4s applying now. PM me if you want any more info
 
copro,
by your account, you are in the hardest anesthesia residency in the country. that really sucks for you...i would consider posting where you are so that others may consider not going to what sounds like a program that overworks and does not support its residents.
 
I would definitely get the scoop on Duke. I interviewed at MGH, Duke, and Hopkins and liked all three programs and they are all fantastic, but I definitely thought Duke stood out amongst the three.

They can match MGH and Hopkins in research capabilities and as the one poster mentioned you have two choices - come out of MGH and Hopkins with the name, experience, well rounded anesthesia skills and ok regional experience - or leave Duke with all of those things plus be as skilled as many regionally trained fellows - from what Ive heard this increases your marketability substantially.

Hopefully someone on here will post answers to the questions you asked about Duke as I know its very differnent as they have a night call float system (do one week of nights at a time - and they were unique in this regard).

Bottom line - you cant go wrong at these programs, but for what its worth, after interviewing at all the big programs, Duke was clearly the best all around program I found because of their regional experience - not to mention the numbers you get in hearts - if they have any weakness its peds, and thats not awful - put if you want peds, go to Penn. Duke only has 12-15 residents and the volume of these 30 resident programs, not to mention they are building an entire new hospital and just got some new ORs.

Do you want to live in Durham, NC though - thats the question thats a deal breaker for many - I loved the towns of Chapel Hill and Raleigh next door, but my family loves big cities - hey, what can you do.
 
Just wanted to echo what gaspasser said about the hopkins program. I am in the combined peds anesthesia/critical care program, but what he said was right on-- nice mix of married residents w/wout families and single folks. The hours can be rough some days with those add-ons, and there is a lot of transitioning going on in the residency office. But as someone whose life does not revolve around work, it was doable (with an understanding spouse).
 
I already posted a couple of long ones about life at MGH when I was a CA1 last year, here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=478943

In all honesty, in terms of hours and call, when I read the Hopkins and Duke descriptions in this discussion, resident life and the work hours sounds similar across all three. In the OR we work 60-65 hours a week. Sounds like it's less than coprolalia. There is a good explanation for this. We are a large department (75 residents, 20 CRNAs, I don't know how many attendings -- maybe 100?) so because of the manpower it is not surprising that we have to work less than many smaller departments, reputation notwithstanding. A smaller program means fewer people have to shoulder the brunt of the work. I walk by the OR desk and I seem to overhear every day that one or two people (whether attending, or CRNA, or resident) have called in sick. There are enough people to pick up the slack. I know people who went to residency programs that really don't have the same reputation as the three you're asking about, and hands down they worked harder than we do. Why? Because we have so many bodies, and they didn't.

Residents do the brunt of the work (75 residents, 20 CRNAs), so yes, in addition to good juicy cases we also cover the I&Ds, lap choles, vac dressing changes etc. There's a generous sprinkling of these types of cases all across our 50-something ORs and on the waitlist when you're on call. Since residents are the biggest part of the work force, residents also get these cases. But I think in addition to Whipples, esophagectomies, AAAs, liver resections, intracranial aneurysm clippings etc you really need to do the more "boring" cases (I&D, trach-peg, lap appy etc) also in order to get good. You become experienced just as much by dealing with sick patients and unexpected intraoperative events during these cases as you do by staffing "big" cases.

Main OR call: 7am - 7am (a 24 hour day). Occurs 4-5 times a month. Some nights I've slept from 8pm to 6am. A few others, I barely touched the call room bed. But you do get some some sleep a lot of the time unless you're the senior resident on call (in which case you "run the board" for all the ORs and you stick around while any case is still going).

OB: Is done in shifts (7am-3pm, 3pm-11pm, 7pm-7am).

Getting out early: Happens occasionally, maybe 3:30pm if it's your lucky day. Cases don't get added onto a room generally if it runs past 3pm. Most rooms end 4-5pm. If they do not, we are supposed to get relieved at 5pm (after which we preop the next day's cases before going home, so typically means leaving between 5:30pm and 6:30pm). The reality is that at MGH, like everywhere else, sometimes a surgeon tells you they'll finish at 4:45pm but in reality they take until 5:30pm so you end up not getting relieved and finish the case at 5:30pm. If your attending has only one room they usually send you home at 5pm anyway,.

If you are on certain rotations (thoracic and vascular) you do not get relieved but must finish your case, and you must come in to do your inpatient preops even if you are post call. You don't have to do this for any other rotations.

Personal life: Maybe 1/3 have children. Maybe 2/3 are part of a couple. Maybe 1/3 are single. Since all three of these programs apparently work 60-65 hours a week I'm not sure what makes one of them more "family friendly" than another. I will tell you though, that at our residency when we hang out we usually go to a bar, not a pot luck.

Downsides: The pediatric surgery service has really dried up over the last few years so the experience is mostly bread and butter (but that is exactly what you need for your training). Regional numbers during required rotations is pretty thin since MGH built a new fast-track facility offsite a few years ago and the blocks all migrated there (but you can definitely get comfortable by doing a CA3 elective there or at another site where there's lots more regional). Cardiac has personality issues. Boston is expensive and also unique in that there are 5 large medical centers in the city of Boston alone -- which I think probably means as a resident you will be less overloaded but we also share the more unusual surgical cases with all the other hospitals.

I think we get solid training. It doesn't mean we necessarily get better training than a smaller, less well known program where fewer residents have to take more call and do more work. You will get a better education at MGH than you will at a small community-based program that struggles to meet ACGME case numbers. You will not get a better education at MGH than you will at a less well known program that has lots of call and enough cases. Apart from that, you learn the same set of clinical skills anywhere, with a strength here and a weakness there. The real "investment" in your career that you get from MGH is not the basic clinical training (which is the same as any place that has enough cases). The value added is the culture of the work environment (people are enthusiastic, work hard, love anesthesiology, have fun, and can learn something from every case), the name on your CV and the occasional academic opportunity that you may be able to dabble in as a resident. That goes not just for MGH but for all the programs you asked about -- apart from having a generous number of cases of all types, you are still a new grad with a basic education when you get out and the real benefits are in how happy you were at your program, and what it does for your job prospects when you graduate.

I would definitely do it again. PM me if you have any more personal questions about the program.
 
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Duke seems to be underrepresented on this forum, so I thought I'd register and add my $0.02.

As the post title suggests, I'm currently a resident at Duke. First and foremost, the training is excellent. The only relative weakness in the program is Peds (although it's still solid training). Regional and Cardiac are nationally known and deserve the reputation. Of the 80 or so attendings on faculty, I can only think of 1 or 2 who I don't like to work with--the rest are very resident-oriented and foster a positive working/learning environment.

As far as lifestyle, we average 60-65 hrs per week throughout residency. Days in the main OR start with setup at 6am. Patient in OR by 7:30. Two 15-minute breaks and a 30-minute lunch. Relieved by CRNAs at 5pm (except on Cardiac--no CRNAs on that service). OB is done in 12-hour shifts, 7-7.

Call is a night float system. Residents take call in one-week blocks, typically from 6:30pm to 7am. CA-1s and CA-2s work 2 weeks of call in main OR and 2 weeks of call on OB each year (4 weeks of nights total). CA-3s work 4 weeks of main OR call (but no OB requirement). Weekends are from 7am to 5pm, and each resident works 3-4 weekends scattered throughout the year during CA-1 through CA-3. There are a few exceptions to the night float system, however. ICUs are 24-hour call shifts, usually Q3. And residents on the Cardiac anesthesia rotation take 24-hour home call.

One of the best things about the Duke program is the use of CRNAs. Every afternoon the Chief Resident get the next day's OR schedule. He or she looks over the cases and assigns the best cases to the residents. Then the schedule goes to the Charge CRNA who assigns CRNAs to the remaining rooms. This means that residents always get first shot at the most interesting cases. Very rarely do we do PEGs, trachs, wound vac changes, I&Ds, or other B.S. no-learning-value-but-must-be-done cases. Those cases go to CRNAs. They also give all break and lunches, and at 4:45pm, the phone rings asking if the resident in the room would like to be relieved for the day by a CRNA. In general, the CRNAs are used to maximize the resident learning experience. Hard to beat that.

As someone who's married and values family time, I've really enjoyed the residency at Duke. I'm almost always home in time for dinner, and a vast majority of weekends are free. Plenty of time for reading at night and on weekends. Aside from ICU rotations, I always get 7-8 hours of sleep (regardless of whether I'm on days or night float) and have time for a life outside the hospital.


Bottom line: Great program. Excellent training. Very good lifestyle.

With interview season starting, there are probably several people who want more details about the program, about Durham, etc. I'm happy to answer any questions you have. Good luck!
 
Great thread guys. Thanks for contributing - it seems like it's been hard to get folks to chime in. I appreciate the time you've taken to be so thorough.

I hope to see you guys while on my interview trail!

Best,
dc
 
Can anybody explain why you would need 1h30min to set up a room? in my experience it takes 15 min max. What do you do? assemble the ventilator from scratch?
 
Can anybody explain why you would need 1h30min to set up a room? in my experience it takes 15 min max. What do you do? assemble the ventilator from scratch?

I can tell you why, at least at my institution...

We have to get their early to set-up the room, then go to morning report, then go great the patient, start the IV (or do any other number of various procedures, including regional or neuraxial), and finally get them back to the room for a 7:30 AM sharp on-time start. Many times, this means getting your patient to the room at 7:20 by the latest. Throw in a heart case (with longer set-up) and if you're not there by 5:45 AM at the latest, then you're going to screw yourself. Plus, those cases they expect you to have the patient in the room by 6:45 AM for lines, etc.

None of us shows up at 7:15 AM expecting that we're going to be ready. Even 6:30 AM (if you're gonna skip morning report) is pushing it.

-copro
 
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