in defense of people with high stats

I feel like there are way too many really smart, really cool people on SDN for anyone on here to have said anything like that...but if someone did, screw them. Most of us are proof that you can be interesting, fun, AND intelligent.

I always get amused by these posts. You always find these 4.0 students who say how much "crazy" fun they had in school. Then when you talk to them you realize they partied like 1 day a month and never went out on a weeknight. This is, of course, fine. However, its not what a normal coed would consider "fun."

Also,
Getting a 3.8+ in undergrad and still being fun is possible.

Getting a 3.7+ in dental school and being fun is nearly impossible.

Those dental students that receive those marks and tell you they're fun, probably really aren't. Just ask their classmates.

Have you ever been around people that THINK they're well liked. They talk real loud all the time. They always answer rhetorical questions.. etc... These are the people that will get a 3.9 in dental school. Meanwhile they are completely oblivious to how socially inept they are. They are so far gone, they actually think they are social. Its quite amusing.

glitter8386 said:

these people don't claim to have "crazy fun" all the time. they appreciate and use their intellect because of their selflessness and concern for humanity

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I admire your optimism. Try hard to not lose that.

glitter8386 said:

however, this does not make them freakshows.

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It doesn't MAKE you a freakshow, however you'll find a strong correlation between the two.

i think it comes some part from being jealous (even though not many will admit).
to keep up your gpa it's true you can't go out partying whenever you want to, but you can have fun when you're not busy (like i go out on weekdays 2-3 times a week during post-midterm weeks).
i'm sure there are socially inept ppl with crazy stats, but on the opposite end of the scale, there are socially inept ppl with below average stats as well...
like ppl wouldn't be very happy if i said everyone with low stats are ******ed.. (and i know it's not true&i don't believe so.. but i'm just giving an example to defend op and my position)

cherr1pop said:

i think it comes some part from being jealous (even though not many will admit).
to keep up your gpa it's true you can't go out partying whenever you want to, but you can have fun when you're not busy (like i go out on weekdays 2-3 times a week during post-midterm weeks).
i'm sure there are socially inept ppl with crazy stats, but on the opposite end of the scale, there are socially inept ppl with below average stats as well...
like ppl wouldn't be very happy if i said everyone with low stats are ******ed.. (and i know it's not true&i don't believe so.. but i'm just giving an example to defend op and my position)

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People obviously are jealous of someone with good grades. Your post is pretty spot on.

However, you'll find as you move higher and higher up the academic level, people tend be further and further from "normal." You'll see it when you get to dental school.

The OP would have you believe that all but a few of the people with 4.0s are completely normal, when its simply not true. Have you ever noticed how brilliant AND odd most professors are.

Lopyswine said:

It doesn't MAKE you a freakshow, however you'll find a strong correlation between the two.

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you'll also be happy to find a strong correlation with low marks and how likely you are to be homeless.

what's your point?

Contach said:

you'll also be happy to find a strong correlation with low marks and how likely you are to be homeless.

what's your point?

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ummm... my point is exactly what I stated.

Many times you will find a correlation with someones stats and how socially inept they are. Not all the time, but many times.

Also, people with high stats never get sympathy. It's like they were born with a 4.0 and crazy dat scores. Everyone always feel sorry for the 3.0 who is doing everything in his/her power to get into dental school. What about the 4.0 who has clearly given up a lot in his/her undergrad to get that 4.0. It is still a struggle.. just that the person with high stats understood "it" before the one with the 3.0 did.

I think we should start a "4.0 Club," to share the struggles we went through to get where we are and to provide hope to those are currently in undergrad going through the same rigours.

Lopyswine said:

ummm... my point is exactly what I stated.

Many times you will find a correlation with someones stats and how socially inept they are. Not all the time, but many times.

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Correlations don't occur on a case by case basis which is what your post implies. Correlations occur between variables in a set of data - anecdotes don't count.

Clearly I learned this when I woke up for my 9:30 am stats class, in contrast to not attending class because I was hung over... which I assume you did.

Contach said:

Also, people with high stats never get sympathy. It's like they were born with a 4.0 and crazy dat scores. Everyone always feel sorry for the 3.0 who is doing everything in his/her power to get into dental school. What about the 4.0 who has clearly given up a lot in his/her undergrad to get that 4.0. It is still a struggle.. just that the person with high stats understood "it" before the one with the 3.0 did.

I think we should start a "4.0 Club," to share the struggles we went through to get where we are and to provide hope to those are currently in undergrad going through the same rigours.

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dude, you're totally missing the point of the thread. Its not about the "hard work" of 4.0 students. Its about the assumption that those with 4.0s are socially inept.

You're beginning to back up my hypothesis....

Lopyswine said:

dude, you're totally missing the point of the thread. Its not about the "hard work" of 4.0 students. Its about the assumption that those with 4.0s are socially inept.

You're beginning to back up my hypothesis....

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Maybe you missed the "Also..." in prelude to my post... which signifies a new point.. You know.. in English class they used to call them 'markers,' used when you want to make a new point and what not...

Yeah I went to that class too.

Contach said:

Correlations don't occur on a case by case basis which is what your post implies. Correlations occur between variables in a set of data - anecdotes don't count.

Clearly I learned this when I woke up for my 9:30 am stats class, in contrast to not attending class because I was hung over... which I assume you did.

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well obviously we would need hard data sets to know for sure. We can only speak anecdotally about this because I doubt there will ever be a study of socially ineptitude and academic achievement.

Also, the very fact that you take everything so literally again backs up my hypothesis.

As for attending class.... whatever I did in undergrad it obviously worked...

Contach said:

Maybe you missed the "Also..." in prelude to my post... which signifies a new point.. You know.. in English class they used to call them 'markers,' used when you want to make a new point and what not...

Yeah I went to that class too.

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yep, you're backing me up. Your posts will be added to continually increasing amount of anecdotal evidence.

Lopyswine said:

As for attending class.... whatever I did in undergrad it obviously worked...

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true

Lopyswine:

Your premise for your argument is faulty. It goes something like this:

People with high grades tend to be socially inept, because they don't go out that often and don't party that often.

Clearly, the core of your reasoning is that partying and going out constitutes social prowess.

Is that true, necessarily? I don't think so.

I have always considered that well-rounded folks tend to pursue balanced lifestyles, which means that sometimes they hang out with friends and at other times they pursue their own solitary interests. I surely enjoy nights out with my buddies or dates, but I also have a slew of personal hobbies that I enjoy on my own. Simply going out and partying says nothing about a person's social skills. The real measure of interpersonal skills lies in knowing what to say, when to say it, and to whom to say it. This takes good intelligence and judgment. I actually think a lot of people who are notorious party-goers are very poor at proper interpersonal relations.

Shunwei said:

Lopyswine:

Your premise for your argument is faulty. It goes something like this:

People with high grades tend to be socially inept, because they don't go out that often and don't party that often.

Clearly, the core of your reasoning is that partying and going out constitutes social prowess.

Is that true, necessarily? I don't think so.

I have always considered that well-rounded folks tend to pursue balanced lifestyles, which means that sometimes they hang out with friends and at other times they pursue their own solitary interests. I surely enjoy nights out with my buddies or dates, but I also have a slew of personal hobbies that I enjoy on my own. Simply going out and partying says nothing about a person's social skills. The real measure of interpersonal skills lies in knowing what to say, when to say it, and to whom to say it. This takes good intelligence and judgment. I actually think a lot of people who are notorious party-goers are very poor at proper interpersonal relations.

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I posted earlier that I was defining "fun" as a normal undergrad student would.

Your explanation of true social skills is correct. I was just using partying as an easy way to observe a fellow students social skills.

Lopyswine is a great guy. Number of people = number of opinions

yea.. i've seen enough socially inepts at parties...

and also if regarding your correlation of freakshows to high gpa.. the trend is the same for going down in gpa too just so you know.

cherr1pop said:

yea.. i've seen enough socially inepts at parties...

and also if regarding your correlation of freakshows to high gpa.. the trend is the same for going down in gpa too just so you know.

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definetly true. While we can never draw conclusions based on generalities, the correlations are there.

Chesnok said:

Lopyswine is a great guy. Number of people = number of opinions

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hahaha, i now have a SDN bodyguard. Thank you.

Lopyswine said:

Getting a 3.8+ in undergrad and still being fun is possible.

Getting a 3.7+ in dental school and being fun is nearly impossible.

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it might be possible if you spent your time doing something fun rather than replying to all the posts in the pre-dents section on the SDN forums.

i'm just saying...

AFdentalgirl said:

it might be possible if you spent your time doing something fun rather than replying to all the posts in the pre-dents section on the SDN forums.

i'm just saying...

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unfortunately, when you get to dental school you'll find that a "fun" night may be studying on the couch with a laptop rather than in the library.

on these fun nights, I find it impossible to not check SDN after each powerpoint I go through...

nerds......

Simple question:
Whose shoes would any applicant like to be in:
(a) A person who enjoyed/partied all through out his undergrad years and later realizes "****, its not easy to make it to dental school now."
(b) A person who studied and also enjoyed in his own way and is also relaxed about his future.

But then again definition of enjoyment depends from person to person.

Lopyswine said:

Also,
Getting a 3.8+ in undergrad and still being fun is possible.

Getting a 3.7+ in dental school and being fun is nearly impossible.

Those dental students that receive those marks and tell you they're fun, probably really aren't. Just ask their classmates.

Have you ever been around people that THINK they're well liked. They talk real loud all the time. They always answer rhetorical questions.. etc... These are the people that will get a 3.9 in dental school. Meanwhile they are completely oblivious to how socially inept they are. They are so far gone, they actually think they are social. Its quite amusing.

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I'm choosing to take this as a personal insult. Prepare for the wrath.

armorshell said:

I'm choosing to take this as a personal insult. Prepare for the wrath.

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I'm bracing myself.

Armor,
as of right now I'm planning on a 4.0. This is just based on our first and second rounds of tests... I have found this to be the least "fun" (see definition above) of all my years in school. However its definitely been the most exciting. I am learning a new definition of fun. I am so pumped to cut teeth and wax. I really enjoy it.

Shunwei said:

Lopyswine:

Your premise for your argument is faulty. It goes something like this:

People with high grades tend to be socially inept, because they don't go out that often and don't party that often.

Clearly, the core of your reasoning is that partying and going out constitutes social prowess.

Is that true, necessarily? I don't think so.

I have always considered that well-rounded folks tend to pursue balanced lifestyles, which means that sometimes they hang out with friends and at other times they pursue their own solitary interests. I surely enjoy nights out with my buddies or dates, but I also have a slew of personal hobbies that I enjoy on my own. Simply going out and partying says nothing about a person's social skills. The real measure of interpersonal skills lies in knowing what to say, when to say it, and to whom to say it. This takes good intelligence and judgment. I actually think a lot of people who are notorious party-goers are very poor at proper interpersonal relations.

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Exactly.

Arguing over what is socially inept in my opinion is quite pointless.I'll tell you exaclty what you don't wanna hear, the TRUTH. I don't care if you want to defend 4.0's. Among say 100 4.0's, theres gonna be 20 that are not socially inept. Doesn't mean they are "normal" but they are not socially inept. I'll let you decide how to categorize the remaining 20. The rest (80) are gonna be those losers in your class that don't take showers, like to play rubix cubes during class, whose parents still shop for them, jerk to warcraft etc. etc. You can add to the list, or if you want I can give you a list. It's a shame that such brilliant kids are SOCIALLY ******ED. That's how to explain those kids getting rejected with such high stats. They are unable to speak beyond their dental education in their interview, e.g. starting a family, because they've probably never even been in a relationship. When I'm on admissions committee, I'm gonna rip apart these kids. Ask them what they do on their spare time. These 4.0 losers, (80), belong in the lab doing research. Being a dentist requires interpersonal and communication skills that many of those 80 LACK.

A 4.0 at some schools, is a 3.0 at other schools. If you have a 4.0 and a 24 TS and 24 AA then you made something of your education whether it be at an "easier" school or "harder" school. If you have a 4.0 and nothing above 20, I don't know how you pulled off straight A's in your undergrad. You suck at standardized tests? How the hell did you get all those straight A's and suck at test taking when it comes to one of the most important of all tests. Yes, I do realize the following. Just because you get a 4.0 at Boston University does not make you any smarter than someone who gets a 4.0 at UMass. It may be the case that the 4.0 at UMass had it easier and couldn't achieve those stats at Uboston, but it could also be that they couldn't afford UBoston, are brilliant, and in the end decided to go to UMass. However, yeah, majority of 4.0's at UMass do not compare to those at UBoston. So please don't brag about your 4.0 at Umass when majority of you coudn't touch that at UBoston.

Are we really discussing this?

This post is a waste of time.

glitter8386 said:

i just get tired of everyone assuming that people with high stats have some sort of personality deficiency or social "ineptness".

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I'm just a little confused about the original premise... I've read a lot of posts on SDN and I don't remember reading a single one to that effect.

misstoothfairy said:

Arguing over what is socially inept in my opinion is quite pointless.I'll tell you exaclty what you don't wanna hear, the TRUTH. I don't care if you want to defend 4.0's. Among say 100 4.0's, theres gonna be 20 that are not socially inept. Doesn't mean they are "normal" but they are not socially inept. I'll let you decide how to categorize the remaining 20. The rest (80) are gonna be those losers in your class that don't take showers, like to play rubix cubes during class, whose parents still shop for them, jerk to warcraft etc. etc. You can add to the list, or if you want I can give you a list. It's a shame that such brilliant kids are SOCIALLY ******ED. That's how to explain those kids getting rejected with such high stats. They are unable to speak beyond their dental education in their interview, e.g. starting a family, because they've probably never even been in a relationship. When I'm on admissions committee, I'm gonna rip apart these kids. Ask them what they do on their spare time. These 4.0 losers, (80), belong in the lab doing research. Being a dentist requires interpersonal and communication skills that many of those 80 LACK.

A 4.0 at some schools, is a 3.0 at other schools. If you have a 4.0 and a 24 TS and 24 AA then you made something of your education whether it be at an "easier" school or "harder" school. If you have a 4.0 and nothing above 20, I don't know how you pulled off straight A's in your undergrad. You suck at standardized tests? How the hell did you get all those straight A's and suck at test taking when it comes to one of the most important of all tests. Yes, I do realize the following. Just because you get a 4.0 at Boston University does not make you any smarter than someone who gets a 4.0 at UMass. It may be the case that the 4.0 at UMass had it easier and couldn't achieve those stats at Uboston, but it could also be that they couldn't afford UBoston, are brilliant, and in the end decided to go to UMass. However, yeah, majority of 4.0's at UMass do not compare to those at UBoston. So please don't brag about your 4.0 at Umass when majority of you coudn't touch that at UBoston.

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While I agree with most of this post, I will have to disagree about the comment about the research lab. Since when does being in a research lab mean that you are socially inadept.

AggieDDS said:

While I agree with most of this post, I will have to disagree about the comment about the research lab. Since when does being in a research lab mean that you are socially inadept.

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My apologies, I just got really into my post. That's just what all the med school rejects do that have 4.0s yet fail to pass the interview barrier. They go get masters, then masters to PhD, then PhD to lifelong research.

misstoothfairy said:

My apologies, I just got really into my post. That's just what all the med school rejects do that have 4.0s yet fail to pass the interview barrier. They go get masters, then masters to PhD, then PhD to lifelong research.

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Hmmmm, sounds like an uninformed post to me. In fact, I had the choice to go to any med school I wanted to, but declined it because I don't like the md lifestyle (and I still don't, and even more so). To my knowledge, very few PhD's are med school rejects--they just choose to go into research because they are good in science and like to think. Actually, a lot of my PhD classmates are quite brilliant and judged on intelligence alone, would easily trump many of my dental classmates. It's just sad that research, despite its intrinsic significane to mankind, is a poor choice as a career.

I also don't like how you basically took a snipe at all of the folks with good stats. It seems like you have an axe to grind.

Shunwei said:

Hmmmm, sounds like an uninformed post to me. In fact, I had the choice to go to any med school I wanted to, but declined it because I don't like the md lifestyle (and I still don't, and even more so). To my knowledge, very few PhD's are med school rejects--they just choose to go into research because they are good in science and like to think. Actually, a lot of my PhD classmates are quite brilliant and judged on intelligence alone, would easily trump many of my dental classmates. It's just sad that research, despite its intrinsic significane to mankind, is a poor choice as a career.

I also don't like how you basically took a snipe at all of the folks with good stats. It seems like you have an axe to grind.

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No, no snipes. That means I have an axe to grind with myself. I was summing up what people are afraid to say. I don't like to talk about myself but I think at this point I should. I do have relatively high stats in comparison to other applicants. I got an interview invite at every single school I applied. I do attend an ivy league, altho the ****tiest and least recognized of them all. So how about you tell me what med school rejects do if its not graduate studies? Please don't speak of the 1% that decides to go to the carribean. You have a very mainland mind set, and I am not even competing with you, seeing as you are already a dental student. Why do mainlands always try to compete. Jeez.

misstoothfairy said:

No, no snipes. That means I have an axe to grind with myself. I was summing up what people are afraid to say. I don't like to talk about myself but I think at this point I should. I do have relatively high stats in comparison to other applicants. I got an interview invite at every single school I applied. I do attend an ivy league, altho the ****tiest and least recognized of them all. So how about you tell me what med school rejects do if its not graduate studies? Please don't speak of the 1% that decides to go to the carribean. You have a very mainland mind set, and I am not even competing with you, seeing as you are already a dental student. Why do mainlands always try to compete. Jeez.

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I have no idea what you mean by "mainland" and about competing, but I can tell you why many PhD's chose to go to grad school in the first place (at least those I know of). Most chose to go there not because they couldn't get into med schools, but because they were steered that way by professors whose labs they work in. You see, professors (most of whom are PhDs) are always trying to brainwash the young. They would encourage youths to pursue research not only because they have a high opinion of the intellectual quality of research, but probably also because they themselves are in the field, as sort of an affirmation. So a lot of the PhD students are in grad programs because of this impressionable naivete, although in recent years American-born grad students have been on the decline as people finally have started to see through the lies and fabrications of the science field.

Ironically, dentistry (along with other healthcare fields like pharamacy, optometry, and so forth), have traditionally been viewed as the "real" outlets for med-school rejects. I am sure that you have heard many of these jokes among med students before. So if anything, dent students, more so than PhD students, have traditionally been seen as med-rejects, with some validity, at least so in the past.

Shunwei said:

I have no idea what you mean by "mainland" and about competing, but I can tell you why many PhD's chose to go to grad school in the first place (at least those I know of). Most chose to go there not because they couldn't get into med schools, but because they were steered that way by professors whose labs they work in. You see, professors (most of whom are PhDs) are always trying to brainwash the young. They would encourage youths to pursue research not only because they have a high opinion of the intellectual quality of research, but probably also because they themselves are in the field, as sort of an affirmation. So a lot of the PhD students are in grad programs because of this impressionable naivete, although in recent years American-born grad students have been on the decline as people finally have started to see through the lies and fabrications of the science field.

Ironically, dentistry (along with other healthcare fields like pharamacy, optometry, and so forth), have traditionally been viewed as the "real" outlets for med-school rejects. I am sure that you have heard many of these jokes among med students before. So if anything, dent students, more so than PhD students, have traditionally been seen as med-rejects, with some validity, at least so in the past.

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Yes you are right, they are looked upon as med school rejects. Also high suicide rate. Those are myths, and will continue to be so.

I think we have derailed...

My summary of the thread:

If you took a sample of 10,000 4.0 students, and 10,000 3.3 students you'd see:

20% of the 3.3 gpa students would be considered socially inept.

30-40% of the 4.0 students would be considered socially inept.

These are of course just made up statistics. We are going to find socially inept people everywhere, however I believe you'll find more at the extreme ends of the GPA scale.

3.3 AND socially inept? I shed a tear for those unfortunate souls.

misstoothfairy said:

No, no snipes. That means I have an axe to grind with myself. I was summing up what people are afraid to say. I don't like to talk about myself but I think at this point I should. I do have relatively high stats in comparison to other applicants. I got an interview invite at every single school I applied. I do attend an ivy league, altho the ****tiest and least recognized of them all. So how about you tell me what med school rejects do if its not graduate studies? Please don't speak of the 1% that decides to go to the carribean. You have a very mainland mind set, and I am not even competing with you, seeing as you are already a dental student. Why do mainlands always try to compete. Jeez.

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None of this doesn't mean you don't have an axe to grind, because it really, really seems like you do.

Also note, that you have only a glimpse of an idea of "what it takes" to be a dentist. Compared to the average American, the average dentist is 3 times more likely to score as an introvert on Meyers-Briggs personality assessments, introversion most people in this thread would likely associate with "social-ineptness"

If you're defining fun as "partying 4x a week" as socially normal, then I'd be willing to agree that most people with high stats basically have Asperger's in your book, but that's not how society defines the norm. My experience with people with incredibly high stats have been that most of them are much more social than myself, but are highly organized and efficient.

armorshell said:

Also note, that you have only a glimpse of an idea of "what it takes" to be a dentist. Compared to the average American, the average dentist is 3 times more likely to score as an introvert on Meyers-Briggs personality assessments, introversion most people in this thread would likely associate with "social-ineptness"

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Just curious, but where did you get this statistic from?

AggieDDS said:

Just curious, but where did you get this statistic from?

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Ditto.

I would not have guessed dentists have more of an inclination towards introversion then the general public.

OK this post sorta annoys me. I got a 4.0+ in college and i worked sorta hard for it. Yeah i pulled all the tricks and did everything I could to take the easy route, im proud to say this includes getting tests before hand and cramming and well you get the point. When I had to study I did though. That doesnt mean that I like studying, I completely despise it. I would much rther kick back and watch a ball game or go out and play some ball or just hang with friends. However when I really had to study I did. That being said I think I have an ok social life and have plenty of friends. I dont think its fair to sterotype a 4.0 as socially inept, it all depends on the person.

armorshell said:

None of this doesn't mean you don't have an axe to grind, because it really, really seems like you do.

Also note, that you have only a glimpse of an idea of "what it takes" to be a dentist. Compared to the average American, the average dentist is 3 times more likely to score as an introvert on Meyers-Briggs personality assessments, introversion most people in this thread would likely associate with "social-ineptness"

If you're defining fun as "partying 4x a week" as socially normal, then I'd be willing to agree that most people with high stats basically have Asperger's in your book, but that's not how society defines the norm. My experience with people with incredibly high stats have been that most of them are much more social than myself, but are highly organized and efficient.

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+1

Not only do these folks I know have great grades, but they also have the druken facebook pics to match

usernametaken said:

Ditto.

I would not have guessed dentists have more of an inclination towards introversion then the general public.

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http://jada.ada.org/cgi/reprint/127/2/253

Look at the first table (Not derived from the article I'm linking you to, but cited in it). Nearly 60% of dentists surveyed tested as introverts, whereas 25% percent of the general population are categorized as introverted by the test.

Lopyswine, I hope you realize that there are exceptions, there are people (One who I know personally) who happens to be very popular and have a great social life, and still retain close to if not 4.0 GPA, I think people are assuming that every single person with a perfect GPA has a bad social life.