I don't recommend Vanderbilt's medical school

There is very little PBL.

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This is not something to complain about.

Perrotfish said:

This is not something to complain about.

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2x.

reductant said:

But hey if you don't have a choice, then you might as well go.

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Very few people get into Vanderbilt and "don't have a choice" to go elsewhere. Why so sour against Vandy???

Bitter much? Some people actually prefer NOT to have PBL - all on your individual preferences. If Vandy is "so" bad, then why would you apply/go there yourself? There are many other people who would love to go there instead of you - haha!

OP, any particular experiences to make you feel this way? Are you a student there? Where else would you compare it to?

Just looking for a little more info into the "why's". thanks!

reductant said:

They try to lure you with promises of a unique curriculum and their Emphasis program. My experience is that the Emphasis program is a means for them to force you to provide cheap labor for researchers at Vanderbilt. Honestly, you can't get anything significant done in the short amount of time they give you unless you piggy back on to someone or get extremely lucky. It's a sad attempt at a research program. And lumping all the courses together under one class isn't an innovative curriculum. There is very little PBL. It's the same didactic course work you would get anywhere else just a lot less organized because you have physiology, embryology, and anatomy lectures jumbled under the same course calendar. But hey if you don't have a choice, then you might as well go.

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Isn't Emphasis over 2 years, including the summer between M1 and M2? That is a significant amount of time for a research project at the med student level. Keep in mind that an NIH R01 is funded for only 5 years, and there is a lot more work involved with that.

AdmiralChz said:

If Vandy is "so" bad, then why would you apply/go there yourself? There are many other people who would love to go there instead of you - haha!

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The OP seems to be a student there. It's hard to go back in time and change one's school decision.

Though I'll agree with other posters...no PBL is a huge plus in my mind.

DrYoda said:

2x.

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3x.

I think it's nice that the school has such a program that directs students to faculty members for research. At my school where we don't have a program like that, it is a pain in the butt to find research mentors that are willing to have students to do research with them. From my limited understanding, at least Vanderbilt already has committees of faculty mentors ready to accept students.

MrBurns10 said:

The OP seems to be a student there. It's hard to go back in time and change one's school decision.

Though I'll agree with other posters...no PBL is a huge plus in my mind.

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Yep, no PBL is a huge plus in my mind as well. What a waste of time, which, thank God, I have managed to avoid. Sitting around with a bunch of people who don't know anything but have to pretend that they do, please, can I just go study or get a beer or watch a ballgame, and leave me alone. As Coack K would say, in that nasely voice, "I love Duke," ....I don't love Duke, but I love Coach K's loyalty to the school. Why is North Carolina killing Duke? A question from the Left Coast.

It's the same didactic course work you would get anywhere else just a lot less organized because you have physiology, embryology, and anatomy lectures jumbled under the same course calendar.

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That's called an "integrated curriculum," and I think it makes a hell of a lot more sense than learning each subject individually. Exploring each organ system to its fullest instead of getting little pieces of everything as you go along makes learning far easier.

My experience is that the Emphasis program is a means for them to force you to provide cheap labor for researchers at Vanderbilt.

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Welcome to the wonderful world of doing research you aren't in charge of! If you aren't the PI, you aren't ****.

There is very little PBL.

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Thank goodness, as other have said. PBL is the most inefficient garbage ever.

searun said:

I love Coach K's loyalty to the school. Why is North Carolina killing Duke? A question from the Left Coast.

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I don't have a Duke affiliation, but I am a North Carolinian. I assure you, the state of NC loves Duke, there might be a bit of a love/hate spirit with some folks, but it's a well respected institution.
Some in NC refer to the medical center as the "Medical College of New Jersey" because there is a strong lack of southern feel at the med. ctr. according to "some", except for the fact that it's in Durham, NC.
The basketball rivalry among all the ACC goes without saying.
Dah, but to answer your question: Tyler Hansbrough.

Why are people who don't go to Vandy arguing with the person who does?

This is the kind of real inside info that's useful to hear. If a Vandy student wants to rebut his observations of the school from the inside then that's useful, but people who have only read about the "amazing, integrative curriculum!" are as blind as the rest of us.

I didn't apply to vandy but I wish someone would come out and give real feedback about the rest of the schools I applied to . That'd make picking through the flowery propaganda pamphlets easier.

TupacalipseT96 said:

Why are people who don't go to Vandy arguing with the person who does?

This is the kind of real inside info that's useful to hear. If a Vandy student want's to rebut his observations of the school from the inside then that's useful, but people who have only read about the "amazing, integrative curriculum!" are as blind as the rest of us.

I didn't apply to vandy but I wish someone would come out and give real feedback about the rest of the schools I applied to . That'd make picking through the flowery propaganda pamphlets easier.

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It's hard to navigate an incumbent's comments too because it's likely they've come to terms with their decision to attend said school. If you get into a school like Vandy you probably had other choices, so when that person decided that Vandy was where they wanted to end up, they committed to that school and all that comes with it (lame parts of the curriculum and otherwise). Insert arguments of cognitive dissonance here. That's why I usually take what I hear at these schools with a grain (block) of salt and simply evaluate on the basis of what I think I would enjoy in a curriculum.

Bottomline: I guess vandy isn't for you OP.

To add to that, the OP's comments aren't really school-specific. It's more "I don't like research" and "I don't like integrated curricula." That doesn't have much to do with Vandy. Now, if he'd said something like, "The curriculum is disorganized because we learn cardio in phys while learning lower limb in gross" then that would be useful information in regards to Vanderbilt.

Ok...current third year here with a rebuttal for those interested in more opinions.

First, a semi-paternalistic disclaimer: From the nature of the OP, it sounds like a first year student talking. The first years are currently in the midst of the toughest portion of their first year curriculum, with the toughest exam of the year coming up in 2 weeks. Additionally, they are under the stress of having to finalize emphasis plans and having to plan for Cadaver Ball, a huge med school wide prom complete with video entertainment. So I'm tempted to dismiss some of these concerns as simply bad timing/misplaced frustration.

Ok, on to the rebuttal.

1) On the Emphasis program: It can be great, it can suck. I know people who had wonderful experiences traveling to foreign countries. I know people who have done outstanding clinical and lab work and gotten publications, presentations, some even have had their projects picked up by others for continuation. I also know some students who have had projects fall apart, much to their misery. Overall, the program is an excellent opportunity, and if you put solid effort in it can be very rewarding. But it has not been without growing pains.
-(edit cuz I forgot) Also, you get a $3000 summer stipend for Emphasis - you're not really "cheap labor" in that regard

2) On the curriculum: I'm part of the "old guard" who went through the first two years prior to the curriculum revision. However, a large portion of the content is still the same (much as it is the same at all schools); more importantly, the vast majority of the same (excellent) faculty members are still teaching - these are people who take pride in their work and pride in mentoring medical students - they are the driving force behind a great preclinical education. And in fact, they've added more clinical faculty with the goal of making the teaching more "clinically focused" and less basic-science-ish (ex - one of my favorite cards attendings from 3rd year gives the second years a path lecture on valvular disease).
-Additionally, the school takes student feedback very seriously - a student group has a biweekly scheduled session with the dean of medical education to discuss concerns/issues related to the implementation of the new curriculum, and I know from conversations with said dean that their feedback has already led to many positive changes
-I don't know where anyone (at the pre-med level) would get the idea that the new curriculum does not have a strong basis in didactic teaching
-The "jumbled" approach is the currently en-vogue systems based approach used at many schools across the country
-The irony is that I had heard from some second years that they cut down on the # of PBL-ish sessions just since last year due to negative feedback regarding some of these sessions; also, the first years will be having some great PBL sessions in their upcoming microbiology course (called "microbial topics" - small groups led by ID attendings and generalists where you discuss a series of cases)
-The order of the new integrated anatomy/physio/embryo/histo course has actually been revised just since last year as well (this year is the second iteration of the new first year curriculum) to make the flow more logical and integrated

3) On Vanderbilt as a whole: Not to sound like a homer, but I love Vanderbilt. I have had a great three years here, have been greatly impressed by the people around me, and feel that I have gotten a top notch education. Have there been times when I've been miserable? You betcha - but you know what, I don't think the school was to blame for that (and I think any honset med student at any school would tell you they've had times like that as well); and had I been smarter I would have taken advantage of some of the great resources the school has to help me out in those down times.

4) On the OP: Frankly, I don't think a first year med student is in a good place to criticize the institution. There is so much of the education that they have yet to experience. The best is yet to come - the biggest strength of Vanderbilt's training comes in the clinical years, IMO. I have a feeling the OP may someday look back on this post as a mistake.

Thanks for the info, VandyMD10. Still waiting to hear back from this school, so I'm particularly interested!

Current second year -- I would like to echo most of VandyMD10's comments.

Emphasis: Personally, I am presenting a poster at an annual meeting in the spring, and I'm working on a second-author paper. Will everyone get that? No, but many will. Some of it is luck in picking a project, but I don't think that has to do with emphasis, more with research in general. Nothing guarantees you're going to get a great research project at another school; at least Vandy guarantees you something for your CV. If the OP is a first year, I don't really see how they're judging the program yet anyway, as they likely have barely started their research, if that.

Curriculum: As others have mentioned, I wasn't looking for a ton of PBL style classes. If you are, Vandy will disappoint (although Microbial Topics is pretty good). I think many people in my class, the real guinea pigs, would complain about organization and time that is wasted by inefficiency. Most of that may be due to the fact that it's a brand new curriculum that everyone is struggling to make work. I would hope those parts of it will be better with time, especially by the time the 2013s get here. The faculty is certainly working hard to meet the students' requests. Another thing would be the minutiae of anatomy -- Vandy is big on it (we have the co-author of Big Moore teachgin here). Perhaps more time could be spent on physio. That's really the only complaint with first year I had, content-wise. Other than that, I think the instruction has been fairly good. Second year has honestly been a lot easier, and our current module, Brain & Behavior, has some amazing instructors.

Overall, I am very happy with my choice so far, and I'm looking forward to third year. My advice would be to take the OP's statements (as well as mine) with a grain of salt. Without fail, some people will not like the schools they choose for one reason or another. Learn what you can, talk to others at the school if you have concerns, and make the best decision you can. If anyone has any questions about Vandy, feel free to PM me, and I will do my best to answer them for you.

VandyMD10 said:

-(edit cuz I forgot) Also, you get a $3000 summer stipend for Emphasis - you're not really "cheap labor" in that regard

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Eh, definitely made more than that doing summer research as an undergrad

scarletgirl777 said:

Eh, definitely made more than that doing summer research as an undergrad

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the 'low'ish stipend is perhaps due to the lower cost of living in nashville?

redlight said:

the 'low'ish stipend is perhaps due to the lower cost of living in nashville?

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Perhaps. But it would depress me to make that little money having graduated from college

Originally Posted by redlight
the 'low'ish stipend is perhaps due to the lower cost of living in nashville?

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Nashville in general is pretty low cost. But I live in the Hillsboro area near Vandy and the rise in living costs here compared to other parts of Nashville sucks. Example- I pay $1300 for a 2br apartment, while my friends on the otehr side of 12th pay $700 for a 2br.


IMO that stipend seems really low.

cheshir3 said:

IMO that stipend seems really low.

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I don't think its that low. That is what we get at my school for the summer. 1500 comes from a federal work grant and then our school matches it for the total of $3000. We only have to work for 6-8 weeks to get it, so I don't think its too shabby.

P.S. I might be the only person here that likes PBL...

lacrossefiend73 said:

P.S. I might be the only person here that likes PBL...

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Shhhh!!! Don't want to say that too loudly around here before you get "flamed" Some of these smileys are funny.

scarletgirl777 said:

Perhaps. But it would depress me to make that little money having graduated from college

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so true...i make 5gs/10 weeks during my summer internship...which i wasnt gonna go back to this summer so i could be a lazy bum, but seeing how it only gets worse in med skool..i think im gonna have 2 fade it

Two years ago we had the top average board scores in the country. This year we were near the top with an average of about 240.

Our matchlist this year is downright intimidating. Note the number of Derm and Ortho matches (including one to the Hospital of Special Surgery). Also the number of Johns Hopkins, Harvard, Wash U, Vanderbilt, etc. https://www.mc.vanderbilt.edu/medschool/events/match-day.php
I recommend using the Map applet, its pretty cool.

In one and a half year of the Emphasis program I am writing a paper on which I will be a first author. I presented a poster at the American Association of Cancer Research in Denver - Vandy covered 100% of my travel expenses and excused me from my responsibilities here while gone. I'm going to another national conference in Georgia this summer with an extracurricular group to give an oral presentation - once again 100% travel expenses included. Emphasis also allowed me to build a personal relationship with the Chair of our Department. That goes a long way for the times when its not what you know, but who you know.

I can't find the survey online, but I believe AMSA conducts a graduate satisfaction survey and we consistantly rank at the top.

The original poster is a first-year who most likel failed one of our intense anatomy exams and is not putting the required effort into making his research worthwhile. I'm not going to blow smoke up anyone's ass. Its a ton of work here and you get out what you put in. If you want to breeze by, go somewhere else. If you want to excell and land your dream residency, get ready for a wonderful educational experience.

I wish every med school had students who were absolutely honest, there's no such a thing as a perfect school. Thank you for being honest .

sweener3 said:

Two years ago we had the top average board scores in the country. This year we were near the top with an average of about 240.

Our matchlist this year is downright intimidating. Note the number of Derm and Ortho matches (including one to the Hospital of Special Surgery). Also the number of Johns Hopkins, Harvard, Wash U, Vanderbilt, etc. https://www.mc.vanderbilt.edu/medschool/events/match-day.php
I recommend using the Map applet, its pretty cool.

In one and a half year of the Emphasis program I am writing a paper on which I will be a first author. I presented a poster at the American Association of Cancer Research in Denver - Vandy covered 100% of my travel expenses and excused me from my responsibilities here while gone. I'm going to another national conference in Georgia this summer with an extracurricular group to give an oral presentation - once again 100% travel expenses included. Emphasis also allowed me to build a personal relationship with the Chair of our Department. That goes a long way for the times when its not what you know, but who you know.

I can't find the survey online, but I believe AMSA conducts a graduate satisfaction survey and we consistantly rank at the top.

The original poster is a first-year who most likel failed one of our intense anatomy exams and is not putting the required effort into making his research worthwhile. I'm not going to blow smoke up anyone's ass. Its a ton of work here and you get out what you put in. If you want to breeze by, go somewhere else. If you want to excell and land your dream residency, get ready for a wonderful educational experience.

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Here are the AMSA surveys:
http://www.amsa.org/premed/medsurvey/

Not sure how to find rankings or anything though.

I wonder if the OP still feels the same way about Vanderbilt now as he did two months ago? Maybe he was just having a bad day..

161468 said:

They try to lure you with promises of a unique curriculum and their Emphasis program. My experience is that the Emphasis program is a means for them to force you to provide cheap labor for researchers at Vanderbilt. Honestly, you can't get anything significant done in the short amount of time they give you unless you piggy back on to someone or get extremely lucky. It's a sad attempt at a research program. And lumping all the courses together under one class isn't an innovative curriculum. There is very little PBL. It's the same didactic course work you would get anywhere else just a lot less organized because you have physiology, embryology, and anatomy lectures jumbled under the same course calendar. But hey if you don't have a choice, then you might as well go.

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I'm sorry you had such a hard time during SFD, anatomy is a stressful class at most medical schools. Anatomy can provoke anxiety, even in people that are not prone to it. Dean Rodgers would be more than willing to meet with you if you are still having such personal issues and I hope you take advantage of having him around as a great resource for such problems. However, it really sounds like you need perspective. First year is Pass/Fail here and much of the stress (at least for me) was self-inflicted. I'm in the study lounge studying for a final this coming week and there are none of you (i.e. 1st years) in here studying. I was in your place last year at this time in micro, its a breeze and I had tons of free time (enough to do alot of research, seeing how you mention lack of time for that) and minimal stress regarding school.

I don't really see what you mean by the "jumbling" of lectures. Yes, anatomy, embryo, histo, and physio are "jumbled" in a way, but its done in a systematic fashion where you learn e.g. renal anatomy/embryo then the histo then physio and then you move on to the next system. I don't think its necessarily innovative (other schools do things similarly) but its a major improvement over the old curriculum where it was anatomy, embryo, and biochem together 1st semester and histo, physio, and micro together 2nd semester. You tell me what sounds more "jumbled" and haphazard.

Regarding Emphasis, its what you make of it. If you want to be slave labor, there are labs that I'm sure could accomodate you. You do get to choose where you work, and most people choose a project that fits their research desires. Most (~75%) don't even do lab work anyway, so I really don't see your point. Only a few schools are able to give students more research time than we have here (and some students don't want more time dedicated to research anyway), and those places have to condense their preclinical curricula into a shorter period of time. There are advantages and disadvantages to the way we do things here (vs. say Duke/Emory/Penn that do the condensed m1/2), but the big point of Emphasis is to get every student to do some sort of academic work that they have to present.

And PBL? Are you kidding me? Do you want more time where you are required to be in class? Even then, you had a few PBL sessions in MFM, SFD, and micro (i.e. all of first year). It isn't too much, but you really can't learn a ton from PBL anyway.

QuantumMechanic, would you mind telling us a little about your Emphasis project/experience so far?

searun said:

Yep, no PBL is a huge plus in my mind as well. What a waste of time, which, thank God, I have managed to avoid. Sitting around with a bunch of people who don't know anything but have to pretend that they do, please, can I just go study or get a beer or watch a ballgame, and leave me alone. As Coack K would say, in that nasely voice, "I love Duke," ....I don't love Duke, but I love Coach K's loyalty to the school. Why is North Carolina killing Duke? A question from the Left Coast.

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actually duke accepts very few N carolinians... Carolina is like 90% N carolinians.. so the numbers add up to more NCians not liking duke for thae reason... besides... i agree with a poster above saying they are med center of NJ...