Female Doctor + Family?

Oh also...i wanted to tell you this before you moved the thread. Look at this topic

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=615015&highlight=children+in+medical+school

Over 185 posts on the same topic as you from a student who had a child in undergrad similar to me asking about children in med school and beyond. Im too lazy to read it all, but if you cant find your answer in there I dont think you will get it lol.

metalgirl14 said:

I know that this topic has been discussed to death but I'm looking for as much advice as possible to guide my decision.

I'm 22 and I will be graduating from Northwestern in two weeks. Throughout my undergrad time, I've solely worked toward pursuing medical school (I've completed all the pre-medical requirements and even obtained letters of recommendation for medical school). Recently though, I've been having some doubts.

I have been with my current boyfriend for 6 years now and we would like to move to the next level in our relationship soon. This, however, got me thinking about having a family and how being a physician would affect this.
When I have children, I want to be a significant part of their lives, not just a bystander. Because of this, I have considered/am considering the PA route. I don't know if this is the route I want to take though and I have a slight suspicion that I may eventually regret not going to medical school. Would I be able to be a significant part of my children's lives if I am a physician? How do current female physicians juggle the life/work balance? Do they feel that they have adequate family time?

(Just for the record, I plan on going into one of the less "demanding" specialties, like family practice, and my relationship partner is very supportive (he has even offered to be a stay-at-home dad!))

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I'm not going to lie and say that it will be easy, but there are many female doctors that are moms. I think there is a website called momsmd or mdmoms.com where you can get some feedback right from practicing doctors.

As for specialty, please don't make the mistake of thinking that a family med doctor is not a demanding specialty. From what I've read, many of the primary care specialties (family med, internal med, pediatrics and ob/gyn) are time intensive.

First, I would like to state (which I am sure that you already know), you are still very young. Medicine and studying of medicine isn't going to go away. It is something you can pursue now, something that you can still pursue when you are an old fart like myself . Having a family and being able to devote the time you want to in it, to me, is more limited. Take this time now, and enjoy it. If you want to be involved in the medical field but don't yet want to devote to it as full-time as you may need to as a doctor, go for the PA. You are not saying no to being a doctor, but this will satisfy some of your yearning now.

You will have time for your family, but it is all what you make of it. I am 24 (a few years older than you) taking my pre-reqs right now for med school. I too, am looking to have a family and be able to spend time with my family, etc. That is how I grew up. However, at this stage in your (our) lives, you kinda have to be selfish. I've learned that there is only one person you need to watch out for primarily, and that is yourself. I learned this the hard way. I put off getting into medicine in college because I had a younger gf for 4 years and wanted to do what would ever make us happy. Turns out, we broke up, and I was not happy! Now, I am pursuing medicine for me!! Not anyone else.

Also, I am sure you have a great relationship and I am in no way trying to say ya'll will end up like my last relationship. I merely am trying to say that if you focus on what you want to do, your bf/future hubby will understand and always be there for you. What's meant to be is meant to be!

Furthermore, if you are interested in becoming a PA, go for it! If you think you will have doubts your entire life because you were not a physician, then by all means full speed ahead!

Mike

metalgirl14 said:

I know that this topic has been discussed to death but I'm looking for as much advice as possible to guide my decision.

I'm 22 and I will be graduating from Northwestern in two weeks. Throughout my undergrad time, I've solely worked toward pursuing medical school (I've completed all the pre-medical requirements and even obtained letters of recommendation for medical school). Recently though, I've been having some doubts.

I have been with my current boyfriend for 6 years now and we would like to move to the next level in our relationship soon. This, however, got me thinking about having a family and how being a physician would affect this.
When I have children, I want to be a significant part of their lives, not just a bystander. Because of this, I have considered/am considering the PA route. I don't know if this is the route I want to take though and I have a slight suspicion that I may eventually regret not going to medical school. Would I be able to be a significant part of my children's lives if I am a physician? How do current female physicians juggle the life/work balance? Do they feel that they have adequate family time?

(Just for the record, I plan on going into one of the less "demanding" specialties, like family practice, and my relationship partner is very supportive (he has even offered to be a stay-at-home dad!))

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I think that to make your choice easier, first of all inquire about PAs. If you see that you like it, then you can go that route because for sure the PA route is nowhere near as demanding on your time as the MD route. No matter what, it is very likely that you will have much less time for family as a medstudent, resident, and eventually as a doctor than if you were just a PA.

If you are willing to make some sacrifices, then you can do some planning. If you want to really be involved with your children, you will likely have to delay becoming pregnant until after you finish medschool and residency. So assuming that you apply and get in this year, that will be 4 + 3 years (for FM) = 7 years. If you can wait until you are 29 or early 30s to have children, then you might be able to pull this off. You can also look into medical fields that enable you to work part time. The residency might be two or so years longer, but it might pay off in the end. From what I know right now, family doctors have to work very hard to maintain good income. Keep that in mind. I think that the quality of your life as a doctor is more important than the duration of your residency. By that analogy, dermatology would be much better for you than FM since you will not have to work as many hours to maintain the same income. On the other hand, it takes much more work to get into derm. It is supposed to be the most competitive field because of the lifestyle.

Let's also not forget medschool debt. If you end up with a lot of debt, you might have no choice but work full time to pay your debts.

P.S.: At 22 you are not a non-trad at all. You're even younger than the average medschool age.

The website is mommd.com. I suggest you do a lot of reading there.

The one thing I've learned is that you can't have it all. You can't do everything and do it all perfectly. Or at least, very few people can. I know upfront that I'm not one of those people, so the exception does not apply to me.

What I'm saying is that it all really depends on how you envision yourself as a student and as a mother. When you think of being a student, do you see yourself being the ultra-driven type A who is studying 24/7 and will stop at nothing to be at the top of her class? Or will you be happy to be passing all your classes, knowing you have a little extra personal time? When you think of yourself as a parent, do you see yourself employing a nanny or have your husband shuttle kids to/from activites, baths, dinner, etc while you walk in the door barely in time to tuck them in bed? Or do you think of taking them to activities yourself, being there for all the milestones, staying home with them when they're sick, and generally being "available" most of the time?

You need to decide what you want most from each facet of your life to see how it would all mesh together the best.

I'll be honest and say that I wanted to be a stay-at-home parent. I worked for my daughter's first 3 years of her life. While I enjoyed my job, I would be envious when her childcare provider told me of her first steps, or when my husband had to take time off to stay home when she was sick, or when my parents would take her to storytime at the library. See, these are the things I wanted to be doing.

So I had another child, quit my job, and have been enjoying being a SAHM for the last year. It's great! I'm 29 and supposed to be applying to med school this cycle, but I am considering pushing back my app another year or two so I can enjoy more time with my kids, my yougest especially (who is really a mama's boy), and possibly have one more child. I know that if I were in school right now, or even just working my previous full-time job, I'd feel guilty about missing so much of their lives. It's totally worth it to me to be an older student and get to spend time with them. Med school will always be there. . .my children need me now.

I'm not saying any one way is right. I know plenty of people who pushed on with med school and didn't have children until during or after residency. They are happy with their choice, too. There's no one way to do something. I'm just saying that I am happy with the choice I made to have my kids first.

I also had my children before medical school and think it is the time that will work best for me. I agree that it totally depends on how you envision being a parent. I love my children dearly, but I was not meant to be a sahm- everyone is much happier with me working/being in school/residency eventually/etc.

It is truly something you have to figure out for yourself. Having children and pursuing a demanding career is difficult, no matter the field or age. It requires organization, compromise, and patience. While you are pursuing your dream, you have to remember that your life is no longer totally about you, because you have children.

mommd.com is a great website to check out and read through forums- you can get a good sense of struggles and there is a good mix of moms- some who had children prior to medical school, others during school/residency, and as attending physicians.

OP,
Have you tried mommd? It is a better forum for questions like this one.

I just wanted to say that while mommd.com is a good archived resource, it is not at all active these days. There are a lot of women on these boards who have kids and I think the OP can get good feedback here.

mommd IS active, quite so. There are many threads regarding this issue that may be helpful.

sindadel said:

I just wanted to say that while mommd.com is a good archived resource, it is not at all active these days. There are a lot of women on these boards who have kids and I think the OP can get good feedback here.

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I would have to echo that it is active- and also an ongoing support for moms in medicine.

Make sure you use the "forums" link on the left side instead of skipping to the "premed" or medical students link.

Not to say that good advice and support can't be found here- just a different group of posters.

I had found mommd.com to be quite active about a year ago when I first checked it out, but when I went back recently, I found the medical students forum to be very slow.

Is there a general forum which gets more traffic than the group-specific sub-forums?

I am going to be the voice of dissent. I am not suggesting that women can't or shouldn't be doctors. But if you want to be a mother, be the primary caretaker of your children, and be a medical student/resident/attending, then you are in for a big surprise. It would be like wanting to be a practicing physician and a trial lawyer at the same time. There are only so many hours in the day and you can't do both. Like any other working mom, you would have to have somebody else essentially raise your child for the bulk of the day. That means your BF (hopefully husband before you have kids), family member, nanny, or child warehouse...erm...daycare. I am not going to argue about which method is better, all I am saying is that if you want to be the one to see all your child's firsts and to be the one to hug and kiss them and cuddle them and feed them and change their diapers and essentially be "mommy". Then you will have to put medicine on hold. I know I am going to get royally flamed for this but trust me. I guarantee that just about every single MomMD who is practicing is seeing their kids about 3-4 hours a day, while the primary caretaker is seeing them 6-8 hours a day. Yes, perhaps once you get out of residency then you will be able to only work part time. But assuming you have kids in medical school that is a minimum 3 years before you get to have any significant time to be with your kids.

Good luck with your decision.

seelee said:

I am going to be the voice of dissent. I am not suggesting that women can't or shouldn't be doctors. But if you want to be a mother, be the primary caretaker of your children, and be a medical student/resident/attending, then you are in for a big surprise. It would be like wanting to be a practicing physician and a trial lawyer at the same time. There are only so many hours in the day and you can't do both. Like any other working mom, you would have to have somebody else essentially raise your child for the bulk of the day. That means your BF (hopefully husband before you have kids), family member, nanny, or child warehouse...erm...daycare. I am not going to argue about which method is better, all I am saying is that if you want to be the one to see all your child's firsts and to be the one to hug and kiss them and cuddle them and feed them and change their diapers and essentially be "mommy". Then you will have to put medicine on hold. I know I am going to get royally flamed for this but trust me. I guarantee that just about every single MomMD who is practicing is seeing their kids about 3-4 hours a day, while the primary caretaker is seeing them 6-8 hours a day. Yes, perhaps once you get out of residency then you will be able to only work part time. But assuming you have kids in medical school that is a minimum 3 years before you get to have any significant time to be with your kids.

Good luck with your decision.

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These days successful families need both parents working. No matter what job the mother has, she's still not going to be home all day looking after the child. This is why grandparents, if there are any, can be a great source of balance in terms of taking care of the child. There is also maternity leave or the option to work part-time, at least until the child reaches a certain age. If the OP waits until she has established a practice, she might be able to do this. The down-side is that she might have to work really hard in medschool to match into lifestyle specialties like derm.

I think a child growing up in a successful family and not seeing the parents too much during the weekdays will do far better than a child growing up in a poor, dysfunctional family. There have been studies linking poverty to the IQ of the child. The fact is that if you do not have enough money/time to live very comfortably with your SO, then you should not even consider having a child. Many don't follow this simple truth. In CA, a lot of Hispanics suffer from this: a lot of children and not enough money. The decision to have a child is really not profession-dependent. It only depends on how much money you have to support the child and how much time to share with her. As far as I know, even surgeons can work part-time.

What makes a successful family and why do both parents have to work to create it? Seriously, it completely baffles me that you think having one parent home automaticaly creates an unsuccessful family. Besides, there is a huge difference between living in poverty and being "very very comfortable". And really, do you honestly think all poor families are dysfunctional??

How many children do you have and what are you and your husband's professions? Because quite frankly, you don't sound like a mother (and yes, this is important because a mother's relationship to her kids is totally different than the father's), let alone someone who has struggled with the "go to work"/"stay home" decision while trying to raise a couple of young children.

crazydiamond said:

What makes a successful family and why do both parents have to work to create it? Seriously, it completely baffles me that you think having one parent home automaticaly creates an unsuccessful family. Besides, there is a huge difference between living in poverty and being "very very comfortable". And really, do you honestly think all poor families are dysfunctional??

How many children do you have and what are you and your husband's professions? Because quite frankly, you don't sound like a mother (and yes, this is important because a mother's relationship to her kids is totally different than the father's), let alone someone who has struggled with the "go to work"/"stay home" decision while trying to raise a couple of young children.

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Are you referring to me?

Excelsius said:

Are you referring to me?

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Yes.

Excelsius said:

These days successful families need both parents working. No matter what job the mother has, she's still not going to be home all day looking after the child. This is why grandparents, if there are any, can be a great source of balance in terms of taking care of the child. There is also maternity leave or the option to work part-time, at least until the child reaches a certain age. If the OP waits until she has established a practice, she might be able to do this. The down-side is that she might have to work really hard in medschool to match into lifestyle specialties like derm.

I think a child growing up in a successful family and not seeing the parents too much during the weekdays will do far better than a child growing up in a poor, dysfunctional family. There have been studies linking poverty to the IQ of the child. The fact is that if you do not have enough money/time to live very comfortably with your SO, then you should not even consider having a child. Many don't follow this simple truth. In CA, a lot of Hispanics suffer from this: a lot of children and not enough money. The decision to have a child is really not profession-dependent. It only depends on how much money you have to support the child and how much time to share with her. As far as I know, even surgeons can work part-time.

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This has to be by far one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. First, I love how you define successfull by how much money someone has. So what is the successfull/unsuccessful line? 50K/year? 100K? If one spouse can make that much by themselves, is it still necessary for both parents to work? You have presented a classic false dilemma. Either both parents work, or the family suffers in squalor. Ha ha ha. News flash friend. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions of families have a parent stay home and I am certain that at least one of those families is not living in poverty. Thus your universal statement is negated, and you are demonstrated to be a *****.

seelee said:

This has to be by far one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. First, I love how you define successfull by how much money someone has. So what is the successfull/unsuccessful line? 50K/year? 100K? If one spouse can make that much by themselves, is it still necessary for both parents to work? You have presented a classic false dilemma. Either both parents work, or the family suffers in squalor. Ha ha ha. News flash friend. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions of families have a parent stay home and I am certain that at least one of those families is not living in poverty. Thus your universal statement is negated, and you are demonstrated to be a *****.

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Quite a bit of assumptions there, don't you think?

The definition of "successful" is NOT a set sum, as you thought I meant and therefore, in a way, you are actually ridiculing yourself. This is why I laughed when I read your post, which is a projection, and then your last sentence!

Ok, suffice it to say that the definition of "successful" is when a family has enough money to completely provide for the child without making too many sacrifices (like having to work night shifts, living in a ghetto to save on rent, etc). The set amount is going to be very different for every family depending on how prudent the family is with money and what kind of lifestyle the family wants to have, such a small rental apartment vs buying a large house.

As for the "classic false dilemma" which you so painstakingly tried to address, you did it! Except that there is no dilemma to begin with. If money isn't an issue, then not only the mother, but the father too can stay at home...

Ok, I don't know how old are you, but if you have more questions, I count on the kindness of other SDNers to answer them. Try to be more respectful if you want to get any answers.

crazydiamond said:

Yes.

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You made some assumptions too. I am neither married nor do I have children. And most of all, expressing opinions for women's rights doesn't make me a woman.

By the way, I agree with everything you say and I don't think I contradicted you. Being financially poor does not equal to poor childhood as long as the finances do not become an issue. I know of many cases where finances take a huge toll. You can understand this better outside of US.

When I get married and have enough income, my spouse won't have to work and sure, staying at home with the child can be great. At the same time, it is not just about money. Some women want to be professionally successful which some males just don't understand. But I am sure that as a woman you know what I mean.

In residency, if you have a child, you better make sure that your spouse works because otherwise it can be very hard. This is what I was mainly referring to. As a doctor, there might be enough income for one parent to stay home and still live comfortably. If you want to send your child to Exeter Academy, then your goals will be different and might require more finances.

Excelsius said:

You made some assumptions too. I am neither married nor do I have children. And most of all, expressing opinions for women's rights doesn't make me a woman.

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You misunderstood my sarcasm. I knew you weren't a woman and I knew you definitely did not have kids. Your viewpoint clearly stems from inexperience. When you have children, you'll see the world in a different light. Why are you trying to give advice about something you do not understand?

By the way, I agree with everything you say and I don't think I contradicted you. Being financially poor does not equal to poor childhood as long as the finances do not become an issue. I know of many cases where finances take a huge toll. You can understand this better outside of US.

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You're not contradicting me outright, but I do think you're failing to account for all the variations in lifestyles and children. Parenting is not so black and white where the decision comes so easily. My daughter was in daycare and it was fine. My son, on the other hand, absolutely positively, could not be in daycare as an infant. That's why I quit my job, to be home with him. I have friends who have children who have disabilities cannot be placed into care. In those situations, there is NO other choice but to stay home. Regardless of finances. . you just find a way to make it work.

When I get married and have enough income, my spouse won't have to work and sure, staying at home with the child can be great. At the same time, it is not just about money. Some women want to be professionally successful which some males just don't understand. But I am sure that as a woman you know what I mean.

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Yeah, I do know what you mean. But also know that children change everything. The woman who was sure she wanted to work before kids can also be the one that wants to stay home after. And vice versa. And really, don't be so sure that your wife won't have to work. Life has a funny way of throwing curveballs at you.

In residency, if you have a child, you better make sure that your spouse works because otherwise it can be very hard. This is what I was mainly referring to. As a doctor, there might be enough income for one parent to stay home and still live comfortably. If you want to send your child to Exeter Academy, then your goals will be different and might require more finances.

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When I'm in residency, my husband plans on continuing to work because he wants to. But honestly, I think it would be really great of him to stay home. I'm not sure how much money you think a person needs, but it's not nearly as much as you think it is. At least not in my area. We've done some careful planning over the last 10 years and could easily live off of my salary while I'm in residency. That's assuming, at least, that I do my residency here and some somewhere with a higher COL.

As a doctor, even the lowest paid primary care doc, there will be plenty of money to live off of one salary here. I have no desire to send my kids to private school anyway, so that's not even a consideration. But if I wanted to, there'd still be plenty of money to do that too.

Well, one thing that I learned from your post is that you have seen women who have been very motivated professionally to change their views after they have children. I have never had such experience among my friends who have children, but it's good to know that it can happen.

And I do not think I am discounting variations in lifestyle. I specifically mentioned it in my post. It all depends what you want to achieve as a parent. My goals are very different from yours. The ideal for me would be for the child to have a private tutor that will educate him/her according to her abilities instead of being treated the same way as millions of other students and have a different emphasis in education. As such, my lifestyle might require different financing options than yours or other poster here. Add to that my state - the most expensive place to live and the state is bankrupt imposing taxes over 10% and phasing out financial aid! Arnold is going down and he's taking us with him.

Excelsius said:

Well, one thing that I learned from your post is that you have seen women who have been very motivated professionally to change their views after they have children. I have never had such experience among my friends who have children, but it's good to know that it can happen.

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There's no telling how a woman will act after children. LOL I've known several senior executives leave their positions to stay home. They were very driven professionally but after their bundles of joy, they realize that it's all meaningless and that their real work is at home.

I'm kinda in the middle. Overall, I think I'm happiest working, which is why I'm now pursuing med school. I think I'll find it satisfying. But on the other hand, I realize nothing, and I mean nothing, will be as meaningful or fulfilling as my kids. That's why I put so much energy into doing things my way (like breastfeeding, organic foods, cloth diapering, etc). I only get one shot at this and I'm going to try to do it right. That feeling comes immediately when your kid is born, so even the most professionally driven women can realize this and suddenly see they have a new mission.

And I do not think I am discounting variations in lifestyle. I specifically mentioned it in my post. It all depends what you want to achieve as a parent. My goals are very different from yours. The ideal for me would be for the child to have a private tutor that will educate him/her according to her abilities instead of being treated the same way as millions of other students and have a different emphasis in education. As such, my lifestyle might require different financing options than yours or other poster here. Add to that my state - the most expensive place to live and the state is bankrupt imposing taxes over 10% and phasing out financial aid! Arnold is going down and he's taking us with him.

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I'm with you. I want my kids to have that too. But it doesn't have to cost a lot of money, is all I'm saying. Private schools here are a waste of money, IMHO, because the small, charter schools are just as good. And they charter schools are free. As for the private tutoring, that's also why we've been discussing home/unschooling. So either my kids will be homeschooled, or they'll be in one of the prestigious charter schools. Both options are free. So just because we don't desire to pay for private school doesn't mean my kids will be lumped in with the millions of other public school drones. It basically boils down to whether my husband wants to stay home or not. I'm fine with it either way. I feel that more "stuff" (fancy schools, tutoring, etc) is not necessarily better. Better is better, of course, but better doesn't have to mean more expensive.

Fortunately, the place I live has a fairly low COL. Not the lowest, but still manageable. The nice thing about having been working for the last 10 years is that our house is half paid off and our mortgage payment is very low anyway (due to a sizable downpayment). As long as our family income is 30K/year or so, we're totally fine.

In your case, living in California, yeah, things are different for you. But nothing says you couldn't move to a lower COL area after you're done with school, either. Being able to live on such a small amount of money is very freeing!

crazydiamond said:

There's no telling how a woman will act after children. LOL I've known several senior executives leave their positions to stay home. They were very driven professionally but after their bundles of joy, they realize that it's all meaningless and that their real work is at home.

I'm kinda in the middle. Overall, I think I'm happiest working, which is why I'm now pursuing med school. I think I'll find it satisfying. But on the other hand, I realize nothing, and I mean nothing, will be as meaningful or fulfilling as my kids. That's why I put so much energy into doing things my way (like breastfeeding, organic foods, cloth diapering, etc). I only get one shot at this and I'm going to try to do it right. That feeling comes immediately when your kid is born, so even the most professionally driven women can realize this and suddenly see they have a new mission.



I'm with you. I want my kids to have that too. But it doesn't have to cost a lot of money, is all I'm saying. Private schools here are a waste of money, IMHO, because the small, charter schools are just as good. And they charter schools are free. As for the private tutoring, that's also why we've been discussing home/unschooling. So either my kids will be homeschooled, or they'll be in one of the prestigious charter schools. Both options are free. So just because we don't desire to pay for private school doesn't mean my kids will be lumped in with the millions of other public school drones. It basically boils down to whether my husband wants to stay home or not. I'm fine with it either way. I feel that more "stuff" (fancy schools, tutoring, etc) is not necessarily better. Better is better, of course, but better doesn't have to mean more expensive.

Fortunately, the place I live has a fairly low COL. Not the lowest, but still manageable. The nice thing about having been working for the last 10 years is that our house is half paid off and our mortgage payment is very low anyway (due to a sizable downpayment). As long as our family income is 30K/year or so, we're totally fine.

In your case, living in California, yeah, things are different for you. But nothing says you couldn't move to a lower COL area after you're done with school, either. Being able to live on such a small amount of money is very freeing!

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30K/ year is enough to live for a household AND pay off mortgage?? Are you serious? It is just very difficult for me to understand that things could be so much different in NM. You're pretty close to CA too. If you could elaborate on this point, it would be great. You see, in CA, 30k/year is barely enough to pay off the mortgage of an average sized house in an average area if you spent ALL of that money on it. So I can't understand this.

If that's really so, then I will apply to most medschools in New Mexico. My friends and family are in CA, so I don't think I can leave here, but if I end up having to attend another school outside of CA, having to live in such a cheap area will be plus. If there are any specifics that you can't mention in a forum, you can pm me too. Maybe I am too used to the high prices in CA. I am very surprised, but you have a family and children, so you must know what you're talking about.

Thanks a lot pointing this COL out. I just looked it up here: http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/costofliving/costofliving.html

and it says that $19,819 in Los Angeles = $30K in Albuquerque. That's almost 40% more. And here is the breakdown:

If you move from Los Angeles-Long Beach, CA to Albuquerque, NM....
Groceries will cost:
13%less

Housing will cost: 60%less

Utilities will cost: 1%less

Transportation will cost: 15%less

Healthcare will cost: 11%less


The most interesting part is that housing costs 60% less. Given how much the prices have gone down, I likely can buy a big house in NM compared to the rent paid here in CA.

The question is: are the salaries similar to CA though? What is the minimum wage? I can probably look that up too. This provides a great planning tool for medschool outside of CA.

Excelsius said:

Thanks a lot pointing this COL out. I just looked it up here: http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/costofliving/costofliving.html

and it says that $19,819 in Los Angeles = $30K in Albuquerque. That's almost 40% more. And here is the breakdown:

If you move from Los Angeles-Long Beach, CA to Albuquerque, NM....
Groceries will cost:
13%less

Housing will cost: 60%less

Utilities will cost: 1%less

Transportation will cost: 15%less

Healthcare will cost: 11%less


The most interesting part is that housing costs 60% less. Given how much the prices have gone down, I likely can buy a big house in NM compared to the rent paid here in CA.

The question is: are the salaries similar to CA though? What is the minimum wage? I can probably look that up too. This provides a great planning tool for medschool outside of CA.

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FASCINATING site. Thanks for posting that!

metalgirl14 said:

Would I be able to be a significant part of my children's lives if I am a physician? How do current female physicians juggle the life/work balance? Do they feel that they have adequate family time?

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The absolute #1 most important thing to do is to marry the right guy. Marry the guy who will be a real 50/50 partner in parenting and managing your household. The truth is, it will be tougher to be a medical mama if your guy is a trauma surgeon or a Big Law partner or a managing director at a mutual fund. Much tougher.

I'm a graduating medical student and a mother. My husband is an awesome hands-on dad who plans to rearrange his work schedule during my residency to be more present for our kid. I think we're gonna be just fine. I expect I won't have as much time with my kiddo during residency as I'd like, but I also expect to be able to work part time down the road. I really think I'm going to wind up happy with my work-life balance.

metalgirl14 said:

I know that this topic has been discussed to death but I'm looking for as much advice as possible to guide my decision.

I'm 22 and I will be graduating from Northwestern in two weeks. Throughout my undergrad time, I've solely worked toward pursuing medical school (I've completed all the pre-medical requirements and even obtained letters of recommendation for medical school). Recently though, I've been having some doubts.

I have been with my current boyfriend for 6 years now and we would like to move to the next level in our relationship soon. This, however, got me thinking about having a family and how being a physician would affect this.
When I have children, I want to be a significant part of their lives, not just a bystander. Because of this, I have considered/am considering the PA route. I don't know if this is the route I want to take though and I have a slight suspicion that I may eventually regret not going to medical school. Would I be able to be a significant part of my children's lives if I am a physician? How do current female physicians juggle the life/work balance? Do they feel that they have adequate family time?

(Just for the record, I plan on going into one of the less "demanding" specialties, like family practice, and my relationship partner is very supportive (he has even offered to be a stay-at-home dad!))

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Here is my two cents. I am coming from motherhood of 4 childeren and a degree in engineering. I went part-time for several years. I loved it! It was a great balance of being in the adult world and spending time with my kids when they were little. Being in the corporate environment, you are at the mercy of your management. They decided that part-time would needed to end so I basically had to resign. As an MD it is my understanding that you make agreements with your "partners" regarding your schedule when you sign on with a group. I can give you 4 data points. Two peditricians I know work 2-3 days per week with multiple children. One of them homeschools two of the three children. I know two family practice physicians. They are twin sisters. They work at the same practice. They both have 4 children. They both work 1 day per week. They both have homeschooled all 4 of their children since kindergarten. Some of them are up in their highschool years. It would seem to me just based on the small amount of data that I have seen that you get more opportunity if you so chose as an MD and you won't have a boss that all the sudden jerks the rug out from under you (like in the corporate world).

If I had it to do over again, I would have definitely gone straight through med school. When to have them is the million dollar question. My Pediatrician friend had her first one during her last year of residency. She said it was emotionally really hard. Basically when she was home they just merely took naps together all the time- which is bonding. Now that her oldest is in upper toddler years she can spend that time interacting with her because she works part-time. It is not her season of life to work full time, but it will eventually come.

You also need to consider that there is no guarantee that you will have healthy children and how you would handle that in med school. Her second child which is now 2 has Down's Syndrome. She had absolutely NO idea until they laid the baby in her arm's. I can't imagine juggling that stress with med school/residency.

seelee said:

I am going to be the voice of dissent. I am not suggesting that women can't or shouldn't be doctors. But if you want to be a mother, be the primary caretaker of your children, and be a medical student/resident/attending, then you are in for a big surprise. It would be like wanting to be a practicing physician and a trial lawyer at the same time. There are only so many hours in the day and you can't do both. Like any other working mom, you would have to have somebody else essentially raise your child for the bulk of the day. That means your BF (hopefully husband before you have kids), family member, nanny, or child warehouse...erm...daycare. I am not going to argue about which method is better, all I am saying is that if you want to be the one to see all your child's firsts and to be the one to hug and kiss them and cuddle them and feed them and change their diapers and essentially be "mommy". Then you will have to put medicine on hold. I know I am going to get royally flamed for this but trust me. I guarantee that just about every single MomMD who is practicing is seeing their kids about 3-4 hours a day, while the primary caretaker is seeing them 6-8 hours a day. Yes, perhaps once you get out of residency then you will be able to only work part time. But assuming you have kids in medical school that is a minimum 3 years before you get to have any significant time to be with your kids.

Good luck with your decision.

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You are right in that you cannot be a full-time Mom and a full-time Physician. There is give and take in this situation.

But the comment relating to 3-4 hours/day max for MomMD is universal to working mothers. I spent several years working in the field of social work, and until 2 years ago, our children had a private babysitter five days per week for 10 hours, sometimes more, each day. So I saw my children (awake) about 3-4 hours a day.

For the past two years, we have worked opposite shifts to cut back on daycare costs (as we now have 3, versus 2 children). I still see my children awake for 3-4 hours/day.

I went back to work 3 weeks post-c/s after the last two, breastfed for an entire year each time, and did get to see some of the firsts. I spend QUALITY time with my children, and as I am someone who would not be happy as a sahm, this is what works best for our family.

I know plenty of highly-educated women who had children and opted to stay home. I also know several who were looking forward to being sahm and decided to return to work as they were happier that way.

It is all about how you balance career and family; it is easier for some than others, and part- vs. full- time works better in some cases. It is critical to have child care that you are comfortable with; my children essentially have another home they feel totally comfortable and safe in, without question. But they also know who their parents are and feel the love and strength of our family bond.

Just my two cents....

Crelal said:

You are right in that you cannot be a full-time Mom and a full-time Physician. There is give and take in this situation.

But the comment relating to 3-4 hours/day max for MomMD is universal to working mothers. I spent several years working in the field of social work, and until 2 years ago, our children had a private babysitter five days per week for 10 hours, sometimes more, each day. So I saw my children (awake) about 3-4 hours a day.

For the past two years, we have worked opposite shifts to cut back on daycare costs (as we now have 3, versus 2 children). I still see my children awake for 3-4 hours/day.

I went back to work 3 weeks post-c/s after the last two, breastfed for an entire year each time, and did get to see some of the firsts. I spend QUALITY time with my children, and as I am someone who would not be happy as a sahm, this is what works best for our family.

I know plenty of highly-educated women who had children and opted to stay home. I also know several who were looking forward to being sahm and decided to return to work as they were happier that way.

It is all about how you balance career and family; it is easier for some than others, and part- vs. full- time works better in some cases. It is critical to have child care that you are comfortable with; my children essentially have another home they feel totally comfortable and safe in, without question. But they also know who their parents are and feel the love and strength of our family bond.

Just my two cents....

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I am aware. My only (obvious) point is that if a woman wants to be the primary caretaker her home and family, then working is not an option. I personally feel that the best person to raise the children is a loving mother. I don't believe that what a loving caring mother can provide, can be successfully hired out.

Another argument that is often made (and has been made already in this forum), is that having both parents work is a necessity. Often after the costs of travel, commuting, day care, supplies, etc. The mother is often not able to bring that much more money to the table.

Once again, I am not going to try to argue about what is better. But for those young women who feel that by giving up medicine, they would be taking the easy road and selling themselves short. I would say that the most sacred, worthwhile, and by far the most important responsibility in the world is to raise and nurture your children and bring them up right.

metalgirl,
I don't have any kids yet, but am female and in medicine.
I know numerous female docs who have kids - some are even married to other docs. There are certain times during medical training where having a baby is easier than others (like 4th year of med school, which consists mostly of easy elective and you could likely get 3 months off where you'd be doing basically nothing). A lot of med schools would/will also let you take a leave of absence if you wanted to...you'd have to plan carefully, and wouldn't want to do it in the middle of 3rd year of school or something, but it can be done. There was a woman in the class ahead of mine who had a baby (unplanned) during 3rd year and basically took a leave of absence for a year and then joined my class, and she did fine. There was another person who stretched out year 2 into two years.

There are certain fields like psych and pediatrics, derm, radiology, radiation oncology and pathology that would be much easier/more family-friendly if you want to have kids while you are still in training. family practice also to some extent, although the work is harder than you think. I think there are other fields where honestly it would be hard to spend much time with your kids while in residency (most surgical fields come to mind). I know a female surgery resident whose husband is staying home w/the kids most of the time while she is a resident.

Some of this also depends on what med school you choose (location, and curriculum), and how much family support you have. Raising a kid w/ 2 sets of grandparents nearby to help, and husband who has some job/work hours flexibility, is much different than trying to raise a kid while in med school in the middle of some big, expensive city with bad traffic (New York city, LA, etc.).

I think it's fine if you go shadow some PA's and MD's, and see what you think of both their jobs. It sounds to me like you are thinking that you would feel limited by PA...I think PA school itself is pretty demanding and personally I think that it would be better to pick one route and go for it...it's a lot of extra time and money if you go to PA school, then plan to go back for med school later. Both are good careers, but they are different. Your hours are going to suck worse during MD/DO training vs. PA, but depending on which specialty you pick, the hours could be fairly good during your actual practice. I know several dermatology, endocrinology and pediatric female docs with kids who work part time, so it totally can be done if that is what you want. You are basically giving up income for time.

I agree w/the above comments about marrying the right type guy, too...if you want to work as a doc and have kids, it would be very helpful to marry a guy who wants to take part in the child rearing activities to a significant degree.

Edit: responded to the wrong thread by mistake.

Seelee, after reading your (virtually identical) replies on thread after thread after thread about medicine and motherhood, I have to ask: what compels you to respond to these threads?

yadayadadude said:

Seelee, after reading your (virtually identical) replies on thread after thread after thread about medicine and motherhood, I have to ask: what compels you to respond to these threads?

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What compels anyone to respond to any thread? I have an opinion on the subject and I respond accordingly. I have an enormous amount of respect for mothers and for the job that they do. I have children and a wonderful wife who manages our world. I think that there is a lot of pressure from society that in order for a woman to be successful and fulfilled that she must have a job outside of the home. I disagree. I do not think that there is any career more important that the task of raising children and bringing them up to be good people.

I am not saying that women cannot nor should not be doctors. I am certainly not in a position to dictate how someone else should raise their children. But for all women who want to be physicians and mothers please know that there is more involved than just when is a good time to be pregnant. If you are a resident or even an attending, your children will be raised by someone else. I personally feel that there is nobody who can do a better job than a loving mother and I encourage all young women who want to be mothers to consider that what they have to offer cannot be subcontracted out.

seelee said:

What compels anyone to respond to any thread?

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I see. I still think it's mildly creepy that you respond with such avidity. I don't go around lecturing men on how to be fathers, despite the fact that I do happen to think that the world would be tremendously improved if more men fathered the way my husband does. *shrug* Whatever. Free country and all.

seelee said:

I personally feel that there is nobody who can do a better job than a loving mother and I encourage all young women who want to be mothers to consider that what they have to offer cannot be subcontracted out.

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Out of further curiosity, on what evidence do you base this opinion?

seelee said:

I am aware. My only (obvious) point is that if a woman wants to be the primary caretaker her home and family, then working is not an option. I personally feel that the best person to raise the children is a loving mother. I don't believe that what a loving caring mother can provide, can be successfully hired out.

Another argument that is often made (and has been made already in this forum), is that having both parents work is a necessity. Often after the costs of travel, commuting, day care, supplies, etc. The mother is often not able to bring that much more money to the table.

Once again, I am not going to try to argue about what is better. But for those young women who feel that by giving up medicine, they would be taking the easy road and selling themselves short. I would say that the most sacred, worthwhile, and by far the most important responsibility in the world is to raise and nurture your children and bring them up right.

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I understand your point that you cannot be the full-time caregiver and full-time physician; however, I believe many mothers would disagree with you that someone else is raising their children.

I truly think it is a decision someone has to make for themselves (setting aside family/friends/coworkers input). I think OP is doing the right thing in thinking about it ahead of time; however, they may feel very differently about it when the time actually comes.

yadayadadude said:

I see. I still think it's mildly creepy that you respond with such avidity. I don't go around lecturing men on how to be fathers, despite the fact that I do happen to think that the world would be tremendously improved if more men fathered the way my husband does. *shrug* Whatever. Free country and all.



Out of further curiosity, on what evidence do you base this opinion?

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I think I made it very clear that I am not lecturing on what women need to or should do. All I have done is express my admiration and respect for what I feel to be the most important job in the world. Basically what I am saying is that women have the ability to do something that nobody else can do as well. Some people would say that is empowering.

By evidence I assume you mean studies as to whether children raised by SAHMs are better/smarter/more well rounded than children raised by some other caregiver. Yeah, All the studies I have read are conflicting and many are biased, so no I don't have any evidence except my own intuition which is.

1. No employee can love a child better or more than a loving attentive mother.

2. There is nothing better for a child than having as their primary caregiver someone who loves them.

Do you disagree with either of those points?

Crelal said:

I understand your point that you cannot be the full-time caregiver and full-time physician; however, I believe many mothers would disagree with you that someone else is raising their children.

I truly think it is a decision someone has to make for themselves (setting aside family/friends/coworkers input). I think OP is doing the right thing in thinking about it ahead of time; however, they may feel very differently about it when the time actually comes.

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Okay, someone else is just feeding them, reading them stories, teaching them morals and values, hugging and kissing them. But the mom who sees them for 3 hours a day is actually the one raising them.

Aren't all decisions this way? I can't think of any decision that someone makes for me. I am not suggesting that all mothers be required to stay home.

seelee,
I do think it comes across as you lecturing women about how we can be good mothers. I don't agree there is "pressure" on women to think they need to have a career...I actually think the pressure is the opposite...social pressure that they CANNOT have a career and also be a good mother. I can't imagine a situation in which men would face the same social pressure. I don't know anyone who would assume that a man cannot have a career and be a good father. So I do think that we still have some double standards r.e. this in our society.

And I agree with yadayadadude.
For the record, I know a ton of female docs who work, have kids, and have kids who are really happy and well adjusted, and super smart and successful. This includes babies, kids in preschool, teens, etc. There were also a ton of med students in my med school who had parents who were physicians (some of them dads who were docs, some moms and/or moms + dads who are docs).

I do think this is a decision you have to make for yourself and your family, and one where you'll get a wide variety of different opinions if you ask people about this.

seelee said:

I think I made it very clear that I am not lecturing on what women need to or should do.

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You haven't made that clear at all.

seelee said:

Basically what I am saying is that women have the ability to do something that nobody else can do as well.

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Basically what I am saying is that this is hogwash. Fathers can parent exactly as lovingly as mothers can. I wish you could meet my husband. He's a phenomenal caregiver to our son. If you're ever in the SF Bay Area, drop me a PM. We'll invite you over for dinner.

seelee said:

Some people would say that is empowering.

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Some people say a lot of crazy things.

seelee said:

By evidence I assume you mean studies as to whether children raised by SAHMs are better/smarter/more well-rounded than children raised by some other caregiver ... all the studies I have read are conflicting and many are biased, so no I don't have any evidence except my own intuition.

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Yep. That's what I meant. You know, science. As it happens, the preponderance of the evidence argues against your intuition although I suspect your intuition is robust enough to withstand the most rigorous evidence to the contrary, so I won't make an effort to change your mind. However, there are probably some young women (and maybe some young men) reading this who are trying to imagine how they will fit medicine and parenthood into their futures. To those readers, I reccommend reviewing the literature that's come from the NICHD Study of Early Child Care and Youth Development, the largest federal study of child care. The study followed more than 1300 kids and their families from birth through 6th grade. The separate, peer-reviewed articles that have been published based on SECCYD data are very interesting. Some show small benefits for kids home with mom; other show small benefits for kids in high quality child care.

seelee said:

... primary caregiver ...

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What's with this "primary caregiver" business? Why does a kid need a "primary caregiver"? (I can only assume that in your family, your wife is the primary caregiver. What does that make you? Secondary caregiver? Emergency back-up caregiver?) There are plenty of ways to arrange love and care for children. Here's one example: my husband and I were both full time researchers this year. We shared our son's care equally between us with some help most days from a high quality daycare center. I worked early-to-early; my husband worked late-to-late and the kid spent 20 of so hours each week in the loving, capable care of his daycare caregivers with whom he has a warm and stable bond. So, I ask you: who was his primary caregiver?

And while I have my dander up, on the subject of "raising" kids ... as in, "If you are a resident or even an attending, your children will be raised by someone else" ... the typical response to this kind of criticism is to ask, what about school? seelee, when your kids attend school for six or seven hours each day, does that mean the school is now "raising them"?

But you know, I've come around in my thinking about this. I agree that my son's wonderful daycare caregivers are probably helping my husband and me to raise our boy. And so are his grandparents. And my sister who regularly babysits. And his Sunday School teachers and godparents and dozens of other loving and attentive adults in our parish who take a strong interest in his character and development. So, yah, I guess you're right. My husband and I aren't raising our kid all by ourselves. You know what? I feel GREAT about that. My boy benefits tremendously from all this attention and love.

OP, I apologize for getting us off track here, but I was worried that seelee's responses might be discouraging to women who want to go into medicine so I thought it was worthwhile to try to respond to them. I admit, it takes creativity, energy and the help of a loving village to raise children while simultaneously moving two professional careers forward, but it's not impossible. My kid and my career are both doing great.

seelee said:

Okay, someone else is just feeding them, reading them stories, teaching them morals and values, hugging and kissing them. But the mom who sees them for 3 hours a day is actually the one raising them.

Aren't all decisions this way? I can't think of any decision that someone makes for me. I am not suggesting that all mothers be required to stay home.

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So when your children go to school (unless of course they will be homeschooled) their teachers are the primary caregiver?

It is not only assumptive, but rude to suggest that the time I spend with my children is not important and that I am not raising them if I do not stay home.

I plan the meals, read them stories, and teach morals and values. Believe it or not, I actually hug and kiss my children too.

You claim to not be lecturing on what women should do, but the very word choice and tone of your posts says otherwise.

Seelee,

Rather than complaining that mothers spending 3 hours a day with their child isn't enough.... why not focus on empowering men to spend at least 3 hours a day with their children? Women (as a generalization) already do far more of the parenting work than their male counterparts, so trying to lay more guilt on women for not being full-time parents and full-time workers just isn't a good idea. Your efforts would be much more useful if you could encourage guys to pick up the slack (for the child that they equally produced). Rather than trying to add extra burden to women, getting the men to take a more active role in healthy parenting would help children's well-being far more.

OP, you are still pretty young, so I wouldn't stress over it too much. You are younger than most people going into medical school, yet everyone else makes it work. Look at me, I'm female and will be starting med school (with no children yet) at age 28. I'm not sure yet if I plan to have kids or not... but I find that there is certainly more pressure at my age than anyone elses. If I was starting med school at age 22, I'd be totally carefree about it.

rkaz said:

Seelee,

Rather than complaining that mothers spending 3 hours a day with their child isn't enough.... why not focus on empowering men to spend at least 3 hours a day with their children? Women (as a generalization) already do far more of the parenting work than their male counterparts, so trying to lay more guilt on women for not being full-time parents and full-time workers just isn't a good idea. Your efforts would be much more useful if you could encourage guys to pick up the slack (for the child that they equally produced). Rather than trying to add extra burden to women, getting the men to take a more active role in healthy parenting would help children's well-being far more.

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Bingo! I was wondering if anyone would point out that "slight" omission to him. If you feel so strongly about your child always being with a parent, you should reconsider pursuing medicine yourself. Being from Utah doesn't grant an automatic exemption from that responsibility. Nor being a male from Utah.

looks like I struck a nerve. It is really too bad that that when a guy tries to extol the virtues of a loving mother, it automatically is interpreted as trashing the role of a father. Or that because I think the best environment for a young pre-school age child is with a loving mother, that I condone behavior by an uncaring father. I didn't complain that 3 hours a day with a child is necessarily a bad thing, or that it will hurt the child. I simply said that a child being home with a loving parent is better than sending the child of to day care. If you really think that what a loving parent can bring to the table is less than what is offered by hired help then I feel sorry for you.

The reason I didn't address issues with fatherhood, is because the OP is a woman. She said that she wanted to be a significant presence in her childs life and she was concerned with how a career in medicine would affect that. If she considers 3 hours a day is "significant" then a full time job would be acceptible to her. If she thinks that significant is being the primary caretaker (meaning the person who is careing for the child the greater part of the day) then she should consider a different career.

Hi,
I have a friend who took a year off during her undergrad time to have her baby. She is back in school now, and actually left the dad & son alone during the entire Spring Break so that she could volunteer internationally. It's never easy to raise a child, or to be away from a miniature version of you combined with the person you love. But to pursue both at the same time can be very rewarding, particularly if you have a supportive guy around.

I've heard that psychiatry is a really awesome specialty to go into if you have kids. But the psychiatrists that I've spoken to still work very irregular hours, although they are usually not on call. I do believe it's true that the best specialties are the ones with the nicest lifestyles. So perhaps you can get hitched now, go through med school with flying colors so that you get a great residency & internship, have a baby, do the residency, have another after that. You're young, don't worry. Just remember that things usually don't work out the way they are planned. But they do work out, so have faith in your own judgment.
Good luck!

I would encourage the OP to consider her timeline and if possible continue education/residency near family. My husband is very involved with the care of our children but I am spoiled to have my Dad 20 minutes away.

I think it is good if possible to have a family member (mother, father, grandparents, aunts, uncles) with babies and toddlers. I think preschool is great socialization but I am not an advocate of 12 hour days at the daycare. I think it is important for the OP to realize this is a very short window in your life and your child's life. When I was in that phase I thought it would never end. In a blink of an eye, they are completely self-sufficient and would much rather be playing with the kid across the street than sitting at home. I have worked with other engineers who stay late because their kids DO NOT want to leave after care (from public school). One day the Mom (engineer) called the Dad (engineer) that I was meeting with to tell him to pick the kid up at aftercare 6PM. She had gone to after care to pick them (2 boys) up. One kid wouldn't leave because he wanted to stay and play with his friends.

These are my thoughts only:
Find a FM practice that will let you cut back as much as possible while they are little. Then when they get in school you will be glad you have something to call your own. So many women at my phase of life say they are just lost with what to do with themselves.

I hate to bring this angle but it is a reality today's world. I have friends that would have said we will never get divorced. Guess What. They did. With MD after your name, you will be perfectly self-sufficient if something unforeseen happened. I have worked with so many divorced women who are barely scraping to get along even with child support. Your degree is your insurance policy that no matter what happens you will be able to provide for you and your children.

I have several other friends (including my sister) who were corporate women who decide to stay home. They are absolutely miserable. Their husbands give them a weekly or monthly stipend to provide for the family and have spending money. If they run out, they have to go "ask" for more. They constantly feel like they have to justify what they spend and feel guilty for spending money on theirselves. They were used to having money of their own while working. None of these women have free access to their husbands bank account. My sister's husband is a multi-million dollar lawyer. She does not have a credit card attached to his account nor does she have her name on the bank accounts. She has not even seen a tax return in years because she doesn't sign them. She has one credit card with her name only and he deposits a sum of money each month into an account with her name on it only for her to pay that bill and other bills. Seems kind of freaking doesn't it. Yes they have issues. My point is that if you stay home you need to have a clear understanding of how the finances are going to work because it can cause great stress in your marriage which can roll over into your parenting. My sister would have never thought with as much money as they have that it would be this way. They never discussed money until she decided she couldn't juggle work and parenting. Have this discussion before the children come home from the hospital. Just do what if scenarios...What if I quit, what if I work part-time, what if I work full time.

Make sure you spend plenty of time with your spouse before you have children. If I had to do it over again, that is one thing I would change. Once you get pregnant (not have the baby), the focus changes from We to Us. It will stay that way for a very very long time.

seelee said:

I simply said that a child being home with a loving parent is better than sending the child of to day care.

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No... Earlier you kept insisting that a "loving mother" is required for optimal care, and are bringing in the "parent" only after you have been countered with superior logic.

seelee said:

The reason I didn't address issues with fatherhood, is because the OP is a woman. She said that she wanted to be a significant presence in her childs life and she was concerned with how a career in medicine would affect that.

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Since your ONLY experience is that of a man and father, a wiser and more meaningful contribution to this thread would have been your view of your own "presence" in your child(ren)'s life, and whether or not pursuing medicine has created any issues for you/your children. Additionally, telling the OP that your wife's choice to stay at home has been a necessity and/or the optimal decision for your family's well-being, and encouraging her to discuss this type of arrangement with her current/future partner, would certainly be helpful and earn the respect of most posters (rather than striking a "nerve", as you stated).

I am not afraid to state that your posts appear dangerously close to being thinly veiled (by the gratuitous but strategic use of the phrase "loving mother") expressions of chauvinism. If I am mistaken, then I should be able to find an equal number of posts from you warning male medical students and pre-meds that they must seriously consider the care of their (unborn) children before pursuing medicine, and that spending only 3 hours a day with their children will be grossly inadequate.

Now, on to the OP's original question(s). Here are some recommendations from a happy mom of 2 well-adjusted, happy, successful children, a loving and beloved wife embarking on her 13th year of marriage, and a medical student with years of education and training still ahead:

1. Just as it is recommended that pre-meds shadow some doctors before deciding to pursue medicine as a career, it would be a good idea to shadow some mothers. Motherhood is a life-long commitment, much more so than medicine, and requires an unimaginable (until you actually do it) number and breadth of sacrifices. Find some professional women, preferably doctors and/or medical students, get to know them a bit, and ask them if you can tag along for a few days - while they work (study) and while they mother their kids. (Try visiting mommd.com - there might be some members who live and work in your area and might be willing to let you shadow them.)

2. Discuss and decide with your partner whether you would like to be a younger or older parent - there are pros and cons to both. Personally, I always knew that I wanted to be a younger parent - I knew that I wanted my kids to be out of college by the time I turned 50, which made my timeline less fuzzy.

3. The quality of the time you will spend with your children will matter more than the quantity, as cliche or quaint as that may sound. There are plenty of stay-at-home moms whose children spend hours in front of the TV or computer or with some other electronic gadget in hand. I have not been to every game or every recital of my kids, but I have been to enough of them to make sure my children feel loved and cherished. Whenever I or my husband have to miss something that is of importance to our kids, one of us always records the event for the absent parent, and we watch and celebrate it together later. You do not need to read to your child every night at bedtime - you can read to them 3 times on Sunday, at 7 AM on Monday, at 6:38 PM on Wednesday, etc. You do not need to have home-baked cookies every week, but you can put on a cooking show with them once a month (trust me, 20 years later, this will be far more memorable than the cookies you baked every week). You can have a "Family Night" almost every week and it will quickly become one of the family traditions that your children will cherish as they grow up. It does not always have to be on the same night, doesn't even have to be at night, as long as it is an agreed-upon time for your family to be together, have a good time and bond. You can impart your values and guide the development of your child's character by being attuned to her needs and concerns, by being mindful of "teachable moments", by being open and honest, by being willing to talk and listen – be it on the phone, during your daily commute, while you dry your hair, etc.

4. Children are extremely intuitive - they will know when they are loved and they will know when you are happy. Whenever one or both of those conditions are not met, they will feel intense discomfort (which they may show, hide, or channel into something different). So, my humble advice is to love your (future) children to what you think is the absolute limit of your capacity, then push yourself even further, while never losing sight of your own personal happiness. Is this possible while pursuing medicine? ABSOLUTELY!

The only real purpose of a parent is to put his/her foot the kid's ass when the kid ****s up. Not to stand arround and coddle the children into adulthood. Trust me on this. Everyone will be much better off if you arrange your life around work and leave the kids to raise themselves.

crazydiamond said:

What makes a successful family and why do both parents have to work to create it? Seriously, it completely baffles me that you think having one parent home automaticaly creates an unsuccessful family. Besides, there is a huge difference between living in poverty and being "very very comfortable". And really, do you honestly think all poor families are dysfunctional??

How many children do you have and what are you and your husband's professions? Because quite frankly, you don't sound like a mother (and yes, this is important because a mother's relationship to her kids is totally different than the father's), let alone someone who has struggled with the "go to work"/"stay home" decision while trying to raise a couple of young children.

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I am a mom. In fact, I am a mom to 3 boys, ages almost one, almost three and almost six. I know, I can't believe I have time to write this either
I have been a fulltime stay-at-home mom since my six year old was 13 months old. I have seen many firsts. I've never been away from my children for more than one day and they were with my husband (their dad).
I am pursuing what I believe to be my calling (I got into a huge debate in another forum for this word, so if you don't like it ignore me). I wouldn't be ready to apply to medical school for 3 more years and when I start my boys will be ages 5, 7 and 10. I will miss things, they will spend more time at school and with sitters and my husband. We will most likely hire a fulltime nanny. I have to accept that there will be consequences for my choice to persue medicine.
*However* this doesn't make me a bad mom and my kids 'poor latch key kids'. Moms all over have to work or choose to work and it is absurd to make any women feel bad or guilty to pursue medicine because she has kids or wants kids.
It's completely ridiculous! A world where there are no women doctors with children? Unimaginable!
To each there own- there is not a one size fits all in this world. And that is especially true with raising kids. I know lots of moms that just couldn't imagine being away from there kids to go to work and I know lots of moms that couldn't imagine staying at home all day.
Let's all leave each other alone and support each of our choices.
BTW- I suck at being a stay at home mom. I'm way more fun to be around when I'm working on my dream...