Sobering realities and statistics of AA

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Ernham

Ernham

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Over 86% of blacks from select University campuses were from upper to middle class backgrounds. (Bok et al 1998)

In short, AA is NOT HELPING BLACK AMERICA OUT OF POVERTY; it is dividing it into poor blacks/rich blacks. Further:

Despite making up close to 30% of US population, those from low socioeconomic backgrounds(of any race group) make up less than 3% at those same universities. (Bowen et al 1998.) Note here that this is just LOW socioeconomic status, NOT POVERTY, which would even further exacerbate things.(low SES = family making less than ~22,500$ a year)

In short, AA is not helping AMERICA OUT OF POVERTY EITHER. It's a loser on all accounts.

Now, with hope, the greedy/yuppie URMs and ORMs hanging around here can check their greed at the door and think about those statistics. I'm personalyl astonished that some of you are planning on becoming doctors yet are so selfish and childish. Unbelievable. I hope and pray that by the time I finish medical school that we have socialized medicine in the US; half you greedy bastards will probably off yourselves. Maybe we can make it a noble profession again.
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Perhaps this should be on the general discussion board.
 
Perhaps. Then again, so would many others.
 
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Perhaps we should finally put this issue to rest. Haven't you already said all there is to say about this issue, Ernham? Do you mean to tell me that your previous threads about AA aren't the definitive authorities on the subject that you made them out to be?

Besides, "Over 86% of blacks from select University campuses were from upper to middle class backgrounds" and "Despite making up close to 30% of US population, those from low socioeconomic backgrounds(of any race group) make up less than 3% at those same universities" are meaningless statistics. What schools are they? Are they even schools that HAVE AA? :rolleyes:

I don't like AA either, but what I like even less is someone who clutters up the forum with countless whiny threads about the same OFF-TOPIC subject.
 
Those were "selective schools," Ivy league and the like, top 30+ schools.

They essentially have 50% of URMs, yet less than 10% the low SES group.

"I don't like AA either, but what I like even less is someone who clutters up the forum with countless whiny threads about the same OFF-TOPIC subject."

"Whiny,"eh? Cute. A whiny little bastard whining that someone else is whining and then bumping a "supposedly" OT thread, further "cluttering the board", which is so much annoyed by.

In short, you quit whining. The thread is definitely not OT at all for a pre-med forum.
 
"They essentially have 50% of URMs, yet less than 10% the low SES group."

Can you explain what this means? I'm not sure I get it. Are you saying 50% of the school is URM?
 
Originally posted by Ernham
Now, with hope, the greedy/yuppie URMs and ORMs hanging around here can check their greed at the door and think about those statistics. half you greedy bastards will probably off yourselves. Maybe we can make it a noble profession again.
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You are descending fast. The entire affirmative action program only affects a very small percentage of any medical school class. Why are you so concerned about it?

Your arguments are also addressed to the wrong people. You should probably make them to the admission committees of the med school in your application essay.

They are the ones who have determined the criteria for their program and decided that they will make an aggressive attempt to recruit minority candidates because they feel it is good for the school and the patients.
 
Originally posted by afulldog
"They essentially have 50% of URMs, yet less than 10% the low SES group."

Can you explain what this means? I'm not sure I get it. Are you saying 50% of the school is URM?
Click to expand...

An example: ~30% of population is in the low SES group, yet they only represent 3% population in the universities. They are a meager a 10% of their particular group. So no, 50% of the SCHOOLS are not URM.
 
Originally posted by skypilot



Your arguments are also addressed to the wrong people. You should probably make them to the admission committees of the med school in your application essay.

They are the ones who have determined the criteria for their program and decided that they will make an aggressive attempt to recruit minority candidates because they feel it is good for the school and the patients.
Click to expand...

EXACTLY!
 
"You are descending fast. The entire affirmative action program only affects a very small percentage of any medical school class. Why are you so concerned about it?"

Umm. AA has negative effects all over the place.

1. URMs, incredible aptitude or not, will always be thought to have got their position via handout. And since well over 70% of them did, when looking at medical school in this case, it's not an unfair assumption.

2. It is not solving any the problems it claims to be, it's only divisive and is being used as a crutch. I believe it just creates more problems.

3. it DOES have serious ramification for MORE than just those on the "borderline" to get accepted into any medical school. You could be competitive for Harvard/Columbia and get bumped off by an URM that should be lucky to be getting off a wait list at a middle-of-the-road school in his or her home state.... Fact.

4. I'd much rather see them come up with a fair policy that is at least effective. AA has real potential to help america out, but right now it does just the opposite.

I'd like to see it replaced by system that ranks things that really matter: SES, how many parents in the home, and the level of education of those parents. Those are WAY more important than race. Actually. I'd rank them as.

1. SES
2. personal diffculties handicaps that they might have overcome.(this could be used at number 1 slot if it is something extreme and remarkable)
3. Parents' education level
4. Number of parents in the home

These should be given way more weight than anything else, not counting obvious other stuff like GPA...
 
Originally posted by Cerberus
get a life
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attention_whore.jpg
 
Originally posted by Ernham
" URMs, incredible aptitude or not, will always be thought to have got their position via handout.

"borderline" to get accepted into any medical school. You could be competitive for Harvard/Columbia and get bumped
Click to expand...

This is laughable. Just because someone got into med school with a B average you think it is a handout? Lots of doctors get in with B averages. This is not even considering the 4 grueling years of med school, residency and USMLE the person will have to pass to become a doctor.

Getting bumped from Harvard because they want a more interesting and diverse class is not a tragedy. There are lots of options if you really want to become a doctor. Are you fearful you will be discriminated against if you go to a lower tier school?

The percentage of each med school class affected by AA is very small. You should re-think your obsession with this topic. Or maybe transfer to law school.

:laugh:
 
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Originally posted by skypilot
Or maybe transfer to law school.
Click to expand...

That would require logic.:smuggrin:
 
"This is laughable. Just because someone got into med school with a B average you think it is a handout? "

Yes, read page 20 in the link in my sig.
 
I'm reporting this to the admins.

This URM-bashing **** has GOT to stop.

Ernham, Ryo-Ohki, etc. You guys are making people like me (an African-American) feel very uncomfortable on this board.

Why are you beating a dead horse? The Supreme Court will overthrow it. Discussing it now will do NOTHING. Does it make you feel better or something? Get a life bro...

So much hate!
 
Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
I'm reporting this to the admins.


So much hate!
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madani.gif
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You do that... for what I have no idea. Have fun with that, though.
 
Ernham may be insensitive, but why is he considered "hateful" if he's pointing out problems in the system?

AA is unfair because, however small portion of ANY school it affects, it nudges people out who are probably more qualified. In a color blind society, how can ANYONE think that levels the playing field? If I am a borderline applicant and I am nudged out by a less qualified minority, I'm being sacrificed to supposedly "level the playing field." That isn't really all that fair, don't you think?

I have nothing at ALL against blacks or any other minority...I wish everyone success. We should try as hard as we can as a society to make sure blacks and other minorities have as many opportunities as possible throughout primary school to flourish and learn. THAT is how to level the playing field. Make sure the learning opportunities are equal. (Read: VOUCHERS.) Failing primary schools are what potentially give blacks the raw deal. That's what needs to be corrected.
 
Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
I'm reporting this to the admins.

This URM-bashing **** has GOT to stop.

Ernham, Ryo-Ohki, etc. You guys are making people like me (an African-American) feel very uncomfortable on this board.

Why are you beating a dead horse? The Supreme Court will overthrow it. Discussing it now will do NOTHING. Does it make you feel better or something? Get a life bro...

So much hate!
Click to expand...

Quit crying...

I have heard no racial slurs and/or epithets being thrown around here, therefore you have no gripe. If you cant handle it, then just dont read the threads.
 
Despite making up close to 30% of US population, those from low socioeconomic backgrounds(of any race group) make up less than 3% at those same universities.
Click to expand...


The first part of this isn't true... only ~10% of Americans are in poverty. I don't know where you're getting this 30%... unless you're labeling ALL minorities (even the rich ones) as coming from low socioeconomic backgounds. If that's indeed what you're doing... I think that's really wrong, and offensive.
 
Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
I'm reporting this to the admins.

This URM-bashing **** has GOT to stop.

Ernham, Ryo-Ohki, etc. You guys are making people like me (an African-American) feel very uncomfortable on this board.

Why are you beating a dead horse? The Supreme Court will overthrow it. Discussing it now will do NOTHING. Does it make you feel better or something? Get a life bro...

So much hate!
Click to expand...

Dude... you're taking all this way too personally. Anti-AA does NOT = anti-black or anti-minority.
 
I wish some of these people felt that way...

Somehow, I'm getting the vibe that they *are* anti-black and anti-Latino.
 
Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
I'm reporting this to the admins.

This URM-bashing **** has GOT to stop.

Ernham, Ryo-Ohki, etc. You guys are making people like me (an African-American) feel very uncomfortable on this board.

Why are you beating a dead horse? The Supreme Court will overthrow it. Discussing it now will do NOTHING. Does it make you feel better or something? Get a life bro...

So much hate!
Click to expand...

Sorry but you are over reacting. Get rid of your crutches and learn to walk on your own. BTW- I find the term African-American most interesting. We are all african-americans to a certain extent if that is where civilization started. I think its rather non-descript and generalized. Any opinions on the matter?
 
UCSBPre-Med1, I'm certainly not against you at all. It's not blacks/URMs who started AA, to my knowledge. It's probably white folks who deserve the blame! :D

The system is the way it is, at least for now. I don't fault blacks/URMs at all. Maybe if I didn't get into medical school I'd feel differently. (Just kidding.) :p
 
Originally posted by alphabeta53
Sorry but you are over reacting. Get rid of your crutches and learn to walk on your own. BTW- I find the term African-American most interesting. We are all african-americans to a certain extent if that is where civilization started. I think its rather non-descript and generalized. Any opinions on the matter?
Click to expand...

See, that is what I'm talking about. Just because I'm a URM, you ASSume that I'm pro-AA. I'm not.

First off, I have 3.9 GPA, and a 31 MCAT. I don't need a handout.

Secondly, I'm from California, the Prop 209 state that outlawed AA back in 1998. There is no AA, so me getting into UCLA had NOTHING to do with my race.

I'm going to stay right here, where I can hope to avoid some of the narrow-mindedness that exists elsewhere. Try asking people about their views instead of blanketing anyone who complains about the ABUNDANCE of AA threads on this board as pro-AA.

I think the board would run a lot smoother if there was just one thread on this issue. Not 50.
 
Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
I wish some of these people felt that way...

Somehow, I'm getting the vibe that they *are* anti-black and anti-Latino.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying that no one here is anti-black or anti-latino... I'm just saying that there are a LOT of different reasons people oppose AA. SOME people oppose AA because they have such high regard for minorities that they don't believe minorities need this push... and maybe even that AA insults minorities. Others oppose AA because (as mentioned in another thread) they see that it only helps rich minorities which aren't the ones that really need the help anyway... they would prefer an AA that takes economic backgrounds. And, yes, there are others who, while not racist, are just pissed that they didn't get into their choice school and want to blame someone.

There is plenty of real and obvious racism in the world... so much so that you hardly need to imagine it when it's not really there.
 
Oh believe me, I'm not imagining it. If you read some of these people's posts, you'd see what I see.
 
Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
See, that is what I'm talking about. Just because I'm a URM, you ASSume that I'm pro-AA. I'm not.

First off, I have 3.9 GPA, and a 31 MCAT. I don't need a handout.

Secondly, I'm from California, the Prop 209 state that outlawed AA back in 1998. There is no AA, so me getting into UCLA had NOTHING to do with my race.

I'm going to stay right here, where I can hope to avoid some of the narrow-mindedness that exists elsewhere. Try asking people about their views instead of blanketing anyone who complains about the ABUNDANCE of AA threads on this board as pro-AA.

I think the board would run a lot smoother if there was just one thread on this issue. Not 50.
Click to expand...

My comment on the crutches did not have to do with AA but rather employing the race card whenever in a defensive position of an intellectual debate. Secondly, lets get to the nitty gritty of it. 3.9 from UCSB is not as difficult as from a better UC school such as Cal or UCLA undergrad. A 31 MCAT score is respectable but by no means incredible. You got into UCLA/DREW which hopes to train physicians who will work in underserved areas. Your status as an URM "might" have definitely helped in their decision as to who would be the best candidates for such a program. Your MCAT is not up to the average of UCSF and hence possibly your waitlist status. I, however, wish you the best of luck with the UCSF waitlist, you are on the top half and have very good chance.

Why does the abundance of AA threads bother you? Ignore them. If there are racist things said, then there is a problem but otherwise there should be no conflict on the issue.
 
Originally posted by alphabeta53
My comment on the crutches did not have to do with AA but rather employing the race card whenever in a defensive position of an intellectual debate. Secondly, lets get to the nitty gritty of it. 3.9 from UCSB is not as difficult as from a better UC school such as Cal or UCLA undergrad.
Click to expand...

Thats an awefully pretentious thing to say. tisk tisk tisk:rolleyes:
 
There are lots of valid arguments for and against AA. It doesn't mean you have to beat us poor premeds over the head with them.

Just because you fell into the "borderline" category doesn't mean you should start angry ranting and raving about the unfairness of the system that might put you at a lower tier school.

If an admissions committee detected that attitude at an interview you surely wouldn't get in at all.
 
Wow, thanks for the Supreme court document from your signature line Ernham. Now I am beginning to understand how important aggressive recruitment of minority physicians is to this country. It actually makes very good reading.

Here is one quote:

Although black physicians account for less than 5% of
the total U.S. physician workforce, they served as regular health care providers for 23% of the black individuals in [the study] sample.? Minority physicians are also more likely to enter into primary care specialties, to practice in underserved areas, and to serve uninsured and Medicaid patients, regardless of the patients? race or ethnicity.

http://www.aamc.org/diversity/amicusbrieftext.pdf

I never realized that black physicians were only 5% of the physician workforce! We need to do an even better job of recruiting. How can people complain when they are only talking about trying to increase that 5%?
 
FWIW - UCSB, this **** bothers me a lot too. Since i really started taking note of it - this Ernham driven round is just the latest - I've cut down on how much I post at SDN. The amount of vitriol that spews forth sometimes on this forum is astounding. The not-fine line between arguing against AA and being flat-out insulting to URMs is often crossed with seeming impunity. I cant help wonder how much of this disdain is hidden behind the smiling faces of my ORM colleagues. Before I would never suspect folks around me of being even the slightest bit racist, but now, I cant help but wonder if one of the guys I have lunch with every day is the same guy on these boards posting crap. :rolleyes:
anyway, I dont let this garbage bother me. its easy to forget that the rabid anti-AA contingent on SDN who sometimes come across as being patently racist, are but a vocal few. So not much love is lost. But still...
anyway, I gave up a long time ago trying to talk to these folks. Ernham is a perfect example - Ryo isnt nearly as bad - of why you never win when you argue with fools. I give you credit for bothering to take their posts so seriously, when it is clear they lack the intellect to string together a few words into a coherent sentence. (Ernham's confusion of assumption and argument still has me rolling :laugh: )
So i suggest you and me, take our 3.9/31Q and our 3.6/35R and refuse to be baited by the childish whining of folks like Ernham and Ryo - who no matter how well we do will always think we got some where illegitimately. Its funny how the line "you dont belong here" always seems to be hurled our way. If yesterday it was because we were moving into the "wrong" neighborhoods and today its cuz we're in a med school beyond our qualifications - its clear to me, at least, that the story wont change for a good while. There's no point in getting upset - there are better things to waste time on. :)

posted by UCSBPre-Med1 [/i]
I'm reporting this to the admins.

This URM-bashing **** has GOT to stop.

Ernham, Ryo-Ohki, etc. You guys are making people like me (an African-American) feel very uncomfortable on this board.

Why are you beating a dead horse? The Supreme Court will overthrow it. Discussing it now will do NOTHING. Does it make you feel better or something? Get a life bro...

So much hate! [/QUOTE]
 
Yeah. It's all peachy until you deconstruct it, read the fine print, and begin to question methodology.
 
Originally posted by Ernham
Yeah. It's all peachy until you deconstruct it, read the fine print, and begin to question methodology.
Click to expand...

which i hope you have done with more detail and insight than your "lower level math classes are biased against people from low SES" study:laugh: :laugh:
 
"which i hope you have done with more detail and insight than your "lower level math classes are biased against people from low SES"

As always, your sheer stupidity and inability to even read simple passages exudes through your every post. I said "possible bias" and that "casual and biased data isn't even statistically valid." But thanks for adding more to another "AA thread you are tired of."
 
Originally posted by alphabeta53
My comment on the crutches did not have to do with AA but rather employing the race card whenever in a defensive position of an intellectual debate. Secondly, lets get to the nitty gritty of it. 3.9 from UCSB is not as difficult as from a better UC school such as Cal or UCLA undergrad. A 31 MCAT score is respectable but by no means incredible. You got into UCLA/DREW which hopes to train physicians who will work in underserved areas. Your status as an URM "might" have definitely helped in their decision as to who would be the best candidates for such a program. Your MCAT is not up to the average of UCSF and hence possibly your waitlist status. I, however, wish you the best of luck with the UCSF waitlist, you are on the top half and have very good chance.

Why does the abundance of AA threads bother you? Ignore them. If there are racist things said, then there is a problem but otherwise there should be no conflict on the issue.
Click to expand...

How was I in a defensive position? I never said that I agreed with AA.

You know, when I first read your comments, I was at first angered. Then I just decided to let it go. I know I'm a good student, and I've worked my a*s off. Where did you go to undergrad? UCSB is by no means Cal or UCLA (which I got into as a freshman) but it is still a US News Top 50 school, with a crapload of pre-meds. If you think getting a 3.9 from a Top 50, National University, then you don't know much about the UC System. Where are you from, might I ask?

The UCSF attack was totally out of line, but I'm not going to get mad. I'm gonna take the high road, and wish you the best of luck. I KNOW I'm getting into UCSF. Its not a matter of hope, its just a matter of time.

I'd like to know your numbers, sir. I promise I won't be as hateful as you. Where'd that come from? :laugh:
 
I'd like to apologize for my complaining. I'm going to take DarkChild's advice and just ignore them.

What I want to know is, what will you guys talk about when AA is done away with? School busing? Vouchers? What's next???
 
good thing to do... i didn't want to have to compare statistics.

;)
 
What are they? Not like its gonna make me feel bad that yours are better than mine. I could care less.

I'm not that competitive. Knowing that I did fairly well is enough pleasure for me. What school did you go to? Numbers?

Are you going to UCSF? I hope you got into one of the Ivies. Something tells me you'd fit RIGHT IN there...
 
I actually turned down UCSF for Cornell...location and financial aid were the clinchers. I had a 3.89 and 41 MCAT. I went to Yale undergrad.

AB
 
Exactly like I thought. Good thing you're staying on the East Coast. Perfect reason why I didn't apply to any of the schools back there. Good luck at Yale, thanks for opening up the spot for us.

Oh yeah, I hope your big Ivy ego feels better talking about a "poor, public school black kid."

:rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
Exactly like I thought. Good thing you're staying on the East Coast. Perfect reason why I didn't apply to any of the schools back there. Good luck at Yale, thanks for opening up the spot for us.

Oh yeah, I hope your big Ivy ego feels better talking about a "poor, public school black kid."

:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

If you could only read, I am going to Cornell next year. Secondly. way to bend over and assume a submissive position with the "poor, public school black child" comment. Again, you pull that race card. You arn't getting a handout of kindness. I am also poor..I just apply for financial aid.
 
Why is it that when a serious pre-med issue (like financial aid) comes up, it's sentenced to wither away in the nearly-dead FA Forum, but junk like the AA threads gets to stick around here when they really should be in the Everyone Forum Romper Room?

Ernham, everytime I reply to one of your posts you call me "cute" or "coy." Are you coming on to me? :confused: :laugh:

UCSBPre-Med1, the whole East Coast isn't so insensitive. Don't get the wrong impression.
 
I'm not poor, and I'm not playing the race card.

When I said "poor" I meant it in the pity sense, not economic sense.

Again, you assume that I want some sort of handout. Why is that? Do you think because I'm black that I want that? What gave you that impression? That is exactly what I'm talking about. In your defense, I don't even think you realize what you're doing.

Sorry. Good luck at Cornell!
 
Originally posted by Entei
Why is it that when a serious pre-med issue (like financial aid) comes up, it's sentenced to wither away in the nearly-dead FA Forum, but junk like the AA threads gets to stick around here when they really should be in the Everyone Forum Romper Room?

Ernham, everytime I reply to one of your posts you call me "cute" or "coy." Are you coming on to me? :confused: :laugh:

UCSBPre-Med1, the whole East Coast isn't so insensitive. Don't get the wrong impression.
Click to expand...

Oh, I know. :D

It just has that reputation. I actually want to visit there this summer, I guess I'll find out. :D

alphabeta53's comments were WAAY out of line. But I guess someone from the East Coast wouldn't know a thing about the UC system or UC Santa Barbara, so I won't hold it against him. ;)

You know, it might be hard to believe, but some of us didn't want to go to Cal or UCLA, or even the Ivies for that matter. Try doing some research on the lesser-known UCs. You'd be surprised by what you find. Maybe a school with 3 Noble Laureates in the last 5 years and a top 10 materials engineering program would surprise you. :)
 
Originally posted by Ernham
"This is laughable. Just because someone got into med school with a B average you think it is a handout? "

Yes, read page 20 in the link in my sig.
Click to expand...

Lets talk about the ORMs who are admitted with B averages...

And don't pretend they don't exist... on page 19 of the amicus brief, there's a lovely little chart...
 
Originally posted by Street Philosopher
(i exclude girls because both guys are smarter)
Click to expand...

:rolleyes:
 
I propose we form an AA board
 
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