We are neglecting the meaningful questions relating to AA

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LetGo of TheEgo

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I've read more than enough posts about affirmative action in med school admissions to notice that most people are mentioning true facts but neglecting the "why" questions.

Here are the facts:

URMs generally have lower MCAT and GPA scores (even when family income is not a factor). **

Hence, URM acceptanced applicants generally have lower MCATs and GPAs.



So please dont make judgements but contemplate this question:
Why do URMs have significantly lower MCAT scores and GPAs compared to non-URMs even when family income is not factor?



Why?

The answer is obviously complicated. I only propose a question and hopefully start a constructive dialogue about this issue.







** Cohen, Jordan J. ?The consequences of Premature Abandonment of Affirmative Action
in Medical School Admissions.? JAMA 289 (2003): 1143-1149.
(Jordan J. Cohen is a white man and president of the AAMC)

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The problem obviously begins early. It could be the prevailing attitudes of the household, it could be the pre-K classes of the neighborhood school, it could be the aligment of the planets. Either way, by applying relatively lax standards to URM applicants, medical schools want to instill societal change, working from the top. This superficial approach will never work. The problem must be solved at the bottom.

I believe that parents' attitudes play a great deal in the academic (and not only) performance of a child. Therefore, I believe parents are to blame for the gaps in performance
 
First it began with whining, complaining, and lawsuits about the low minority #s in top schools. re: I'm suing cuz I was descriminated against from getting in _____ school.

Then the government passed laws legalizing a QUOTA system.

Then the URMs got in with low gpas and scores

Today's URM knows they can have low gpas and scores because they can get away with it so they don't work as hard.

Prime example, I go to a school where the black/white ratio is EASILY 50-50%. Yet in the library there is nary a black person to be found on the studying floors. I go there every day and all I see are asians and whites studying even when school is NOT in session.

It's about lack of work ethic and their "society owes me" mentality.
 
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Originally posted by idq1i
The problem obviously begins early. It could be the prevailing attitudes of the household, it could be the pre-K classes of the neighborhood school, it could be the aligment of the planets. Either way, by applying relatively lax standards to URM applicants, medical schools want to instill societal change, working from the top. This superficial approach will never work. The problem must be solved at the bottom.

I believe that parents' attitudes play a great deal in the academic (and not only) performance of a child. Therefore, I believe parents are to blame for the gaps in performance

I agree with the ineffectiveness of the top-bottom approach to societal change. I beieve that the best possible solution is to ensure that all children can start on a level educational playing field.

Why do URMs (on average) score lower GPAs and scores? I never really had a problem with grades, but when I first transferred out of the normal public school system, I had to break out of the "do-enough-to-pass" mentality that my teachers had instilled since elementary school. I had to learn how to study, and lost many a night of sleep (I'm still not one to study in the library... doesn't mean i lack work ethic, i just can't concentrate in silence) studying to keep my GPA well above 4.5 and competitive for college admissions. This isn't unique to URMs, but to most who attend poorly funded public schools. I figure that most people who attend public schools similar to mine weren't given that opportunity to play "catch-up" before college. Most lower GPAs are due to a rough adjustment period to college. Because of my "rough" adjustment (3.44 frosh yr), even if I have a 4.0 for the rest of my undergraduate studies, I won't have above a 3.8 cumulative. Imagine what it'd be like if I had straight C's my first semester. URM students admitted with lower GPAs don't, for instance, have a consistent GPA <3.0; they, like most applicants, improve over the years.

So, the main way to avoid low URM college GPAs is to instill study skills much earlier than senior year of high school.
 
A few years ago a group of African American parents from, arguably, Cleveland, Ohio's most affluent suburbs--Shaker Hieghts--invited John Ogbu to perform a sociographic study on why thier African American students consistently underperformed in the suburb's schools.

John Ogbu is an African American professor of Anthropology at the University of California at Berkely, who specialized in the study of educational anthropology, specifically as to how it relates to minority group educational performance. Shaker Heights, Ohio was featured in a cover story by US News and World Report a few years ago as the most integrated community in the United States. As respecting that status, it was also the feature story for several national nightly news broadcasts around the time the article came out (NBC and CBS, if memory serves correctly). Unfortunately, i cannot recall whether this meant 50% African American, or whether this meant 17% African America (I tend to recollect the former--but this would have to be checked). More to the point, the community is upper middle class (with a good spattering of uber-wealthy), where the median home cost is approx. $240,000. Most children in shaker heights schools, including African American students, have professional parents.

I won't go into Ogbu's findings. They are published in his new book, "Black American Students in an Affluent Suburb: A Study of Academic Disengagement".

I'll add a link to a review of the book (with information on how to find the book) by John Wood's, who is, I believe, a conservative columnist. Hence, his reading of the book is JUST ONE interpretation of the book's findings. I post it only because it seems to be thorough and well written. But I am sure, (nay, I know) there are other equally valid readings of the book.

But, I think it is irresponsible to discuss AA and URM academic performance without even mention of the Ogbu's work, both for this study and other studies he has undertaken world-wide.

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=8069

The point is, I encourage you to read the review and then find the book itself. Your local library should certainly have it. It is not a new theory. And even if you take it on face value, it says little about what the underlying cause of the problem is. Whatever else that can be said, Ogbu is obviously a well respected researcher on this subject. Based on Berkley's maintaining a site featuring the works of Ogbu, I am guessing they hold him in good academic standing. Other than that, you make your own judgments.

Judd
 
Wow, awesome review... it sounds like a great book. I bet you that there will be a ton of backlash against it though, as with all non-pc things.

- Quid:)
 
Originally posted by mecute

Today's URM knows they can have low gpas and scores because they can get away with it so they don't work as hard.

What proof exists that supports this statement? Why would anyone that wanted to become a doctor decide to put in minimal effort?

If you were Black, would you stop trying so hard to be a good doctor and study less?

Of course you wouldnt. You would learn the material and try to do your best to become the best doctor that you can be.


Originally posted by mecute

Prime example, I go to a school where the black/white ratio is EASILY 50-50%. Yet in the library there is nary a black person to be found on the studying floors. I go there every day and all I see are asians and whites studying even when school is NOT in session.

It's about lack of work ethic and their "society owes me" mentality.

The library is not the only place where people can study.

Is "lack of work ethnic" a euphemism for "laziness"?
 
By FELICIA R. LEE
From New York Times 12/02/02

The persistent academic gap between white and black students has touched off difficult and often ugly debates over the question why. Are racist stereotypes to blame? Substandard schools? Cultural attitudes?

This long-running argument may bubble up again next year with the arrival of a book that argues minority communities themselves contribute to student failure.

The book, "Black American Students in an Affluent Suburb: A Study of Academic Disengagement" (Lawrence Erlbaum Associates), is by John U. Ogbu, an anthropology professor at the University of California at Berkeley and a well-known figure in the field of student achievement for more than three decades. Indeed, it was Mr. Ogbu's research that popularized the phrase "acting white" in the mid-1980's to help explain why black students might disdain behaviors associated with high achievement, like speaking standard grammatical English.

Now Mr. Ogbu is back, arguing with renewed fervor that his most recent research shows that African-Americans' own cultural attitudes are a serious problem that is too often neglected.

"No matter how you reform schools, it's not going to solve the problem," he said in an interview. "There are two parts of the problem, society and schools on one hand and the black community on the other hand."

Professor Ogbu's latest conclusions are highlighted in a study of blacks in Shaker Heights, Ohio, an affluent Cleveland suburb whose school district is equally divided between blacks and whites. As in many racially integrated school districts, the black students have lagged behind whites in grade-point averages, test scores and placement in high-level classes. Professor Ogbu was invited by black parents in 1997 to examine the district's 5,000 students to figure out why.

"What amazed me is that these kids who come from homes of doctors and lawyers are not thinking like their parents; they don't know how their parents made it," Professor Ogbu said in an interview. "They are looking at rappers in ghettos as their role models, they are looking at entertainers. The parents work two jobs, three jobs, to give their children everything, but they are not guiding their children."

For example, he said that middle-class black parents in general spent no more time on homework or tracking their children's schooling than poor white parents. And he said that while black students talked in detail about what efforts were needed to get an A and about their desire to achieve, too many nonetheless failed to put forth that effort.

Those kinds of attitudes reflect a long history of adapting to oppression and stymied opportunities, said Professor Ogbu, a Nigerian immigrant who has written that involuntary black immigrants behave like low-status minorities in other societies.

Not surprisingly, he said, the parents were disappointed when he turned the spotlight on them as well as the schools. Peggy Caldwell, a spokeswoman for the Shaker Heights City School District, said that minority families cared deeply about their children's academic achievement and the district was working with education experts to reduce the racial achievement gap. She noted that while Professor Ogbu called most of the black families in the district middle class, 10 to 12 percent live in poverty.

Also not surprisingly, many researchers take issue with some of Professor Ogbu's latest findings.

"When we asked if friends made fun of kids who do well in school, we don't find any racial difference in that," said Ronald F. Ferguson, a senior research associate at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard who analyzed a new study of 40,000 middle and high school students in 15 middle class school districts, including Shaker Heights.

Indeed, the study, which was administered by the Minority Student Achievement Network, an organization that explores ways to close the racial achievement gap, found that African-American and Latino students work as hard and care as much about school as white and Asian students do.

Mr. Ferguson said that while minorities lag behind whites in things like homework completion, it is wrong to infer that they aren't interested in school. "High achievers are more often accused of acting white than low achievers, but it's because the low achievers suspect the high achievers believe they are superior."

"It's things like talking too properly when you're in informal social settings," he continued. "It's hanging around white friends and acting like you don't want to be with your black friends. It's really about behavior patterns and not achievement."

Mr. Ferguson speculated that what Professor Ogbu saw was a clumsy attempt by black students to search for a comfortable racial identity. "What does it mean to be black?" he said. "What does it mean to be white? The community needs to help kids make sense of their own identity."

"I would agree with Ogbu that there are youth cultural patterns and behaviors that are counterproductive for academic success," he went on, mentioning socializing in class and spending too much time watching television. "But when they engage in those behaviors, they are not purposely avoiding academic success."

Other researchers have zeroed in on other culprits, whether inferior schools, lower teacher expectations, impoverished family backgrounds or some combination.

Theories of black intellectual inferiority, too, have popped up from the 1781 publication of Thomas Jefferson's "Notes on the State of Virginia" to "The Bell Curve" in 1994 and beyond. Given that sensitivity and the implications for policies like school desegregation and affirmative action, virtually every aspect of the academic gap has been examined.

Where Professor Ogbu found that some middle class blacks were clueless about their children's academic life, for example, Roslyn Arlin Mickelson, a sociology professor at the University of North Carolina, instead concluded that such parents were often excluded from the informal networks that white parents use for information about courses, gifted programs and testing. "I believe, based on my own research, that the center of gravity lies with the school system," she said.

Claude Steele, a Stanford University psychologist, meanwhile, has hypothesized that black students are responding to the fear of confirming lowered expectations.

And Walter R. Allen, a professor of sociology at the University of California at Los Angeles, said that even when racial minorities and whites attended the same schools, they could have radically different experiences because of tracking and teacher expectations.

Professor Allen is conducting a long-term project on college access for African-American and Latino high school students in California. In his view, black students sometimes underperform because of subtle exchanges with teachers who convey the message that they find the students inferior or frightening. And, he said, minority schools still overwhelmingly lack good teachers and adequate teaching tools.

He also pointed out that comparing the income level of black and white families, as Professor Ogbu did with his Midwestern subjects, can be misleading. Black incomes might be derived from two-career families juggling several jobs compared with a single breadwinner in white households.

Professor Ogbu is no stranger to controversy. His theory of "acting white" has been the subject of intense study since he first wrote about it in the mid-80's with Signithia Fordham, then a graduate student and now a professor of anthropology at the University of Rochester. They studied an inner-city Washington high school where students listed doing well in school among the "white" behaviors they rejected, like visiting the Smithsonian and dancing to lyrics rather than a beat.

The two anthropologists theorized that a long history of discrimination helped foster what is known in sociological lingo as an oppositional peer culture. Not only were students resisting the notion that white behavior was superior to their own, but they also saw no connection between good grades and finding a job.

Many scholars who have disputed those findings rely on a continuing survey of about 17,000 nationally representative students, which is conducted by the National Center for Education Statistics, an arm of the federal government. This self-reported survey shows that black students actually have more favorable attitudes than whites toward education, hard work and effort.

But that has by no means settled the debate. In the February issue of the American Sociological Review, for example, scholars who tackled the subject came to opposite conclusions. One article (by three scholars) said that the government data were not reliable because there was often a gap between what students say and what they do; another article by two others said they found that high-achieving black students were especially popular among their peers.

"It's difficult to determine what's going on," said Vincent J. Roscigno, a professor of sociology at Ohio State University who has studied racial differences in achievement. "`I'm sort of split on Ogbu. It's hard to compare a case analysis to a nationally representative statistical analysis. I do have a hunch that rural white poor kids are doing the same thing as poor black kids. I'm tentative about saying it's race-based."

Indeed, Professor Mickelson of the University of North Carolina found that working class whites as well as middle-class blacks were more apt to believe that doing well in school compromised their identity.
 
All these years later, Professor Fordham said, she fears that the acting-white idea has been distorted into blaming the victim. She said she wanted to advance the debate by looking at how race itself was a social fiction, rooted not just in skin color but also in behaviors and social status.

"Black kids don't get validation and are seen as trespassing when they exceed academic expectations," Professor Fordham said, echoing her initial research. "The kids turn on it, they sacrifice their spots in gifted and talented classes to belong to a group where they feel good."

http://www.magnetech231.com/featurearticle.htm
 
Looking at the "cultural identification" theory that there is a motivational problem rooted within the black culture (to simplify greatly), it would be very interesting to see the results of a similar study done on a group of black children who were adopted into and raised by white families. Until something like this is done as a contrast, it is very difficult to pinpoint anything as the cause.

Now, talking personally, I am white and did spend a short time during senior year in a predominantly black, poor high school, and the lack of motivation and view of achievers as "uncool" was VERY predominant. It was total culture shock for me and I had no idea how to act or what to do. On the other hand, though, I had been put into the most advanced sections of all the classes and found them way below my level, coming from a suburban white high school where going to college was just assumed. So I can also see the point of substandard lower education as valid, at least in the segregated, low-income situations.

It's a complicated thing, and there won't be an easy solution. I do agree that AA and quotas are only a band-aid to fix the symptoms-nothing will really change unless things change at the bottom.

My .02, for what it's worth.....
 
So it's a cultural issue? Man do I feel better, I thought it was my fault!!

One must desire to suceed more than the desire to be cool.

I think it all begins with PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY.
 
Originally posted by OrthoFixation
So it's a cultural issue? Man do I feel better, I thought it was my fault!!

One must desire to suceed more than the desire to be cool.

I think it all begins with PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY.

This is the problem I've seen time and time again in the AA threads. People ignore the facts of the matter and rely on personal ideologies to argue about problems.

No one is interested in how you think the world should be run. And it certainly isnt conducive towards a constructive debate about the roots of our societal problems.
 
Originally posted by jenni4476


Now, talking personally, I am white and did spend a short time during senior year in a predominantly black, poor high school, and the lack of motivation and view of achievers as "uncool" was VERY predominant. It was total culture shock for me and I had no idea how to act or what to do. On the other hand, though, I had been put into the most advanced sections of all the classes and found them way below my level, coming from a suburban white high school where going to college was just assumed. So I can also see the point of substandard lower education as valid, at least in the segregated, low-income situations.

Jenni, I completely agree that your experience happens in schools. The only thing that concerns me is that people are using experieces that you described at your high school and identifying them with specific races.

For instance, I went to a predominately white high school in a very wealthy area of the Washington D.C. metropolitan area. I can tell you that it was difficult to try to succed in school without looking like a nerd or someone trying to be superior to his friends. Sure, this sounds silly now, but you know how things are in high school where we're just beginning to understand who we are.
 
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From the NY times article
The parents work two jobs, three jobs, to give their children everything, but they are not guiding their children."

For example, he said that middle-class black parents in general spent no more time on homework or tracking their children's schooling than poor white parents. And he said that while black students talked in detail about what efforts were needed to get an A and about their desire to achieve, too many nonetheless failed to put forth that effort.

I think I would find it difficult to track my child's schooling if I had 2 or 3 jobs.
 
Originally posted by LetGo of TheEgo
This is the problem I've seen time and time again in the AA threads. People ignore the facts of the matter and rely on personal ideologies to argue about problems.

No one is interested in how you think the world should be run. And it certainly isnt conducive towards a constructive debate about the roots of our societal problems.

Experience is life's greatest teacher. All I pointed out was that the cited authors were indicating culture and ethnicity was one of two primary causes. I don't need a study or a journalist to tell me that. It's called "Been around the block a few times."

LetGo, too bad that you don't want to hear racial identification with specific problems. Kind of like the parents in the study didn't want to hear they were part of the problem.

I guess we should also ignore that most vilent crimes against blacks are committed by blacks....or that 9-11 terrorists were middle eastern. Facts are facts. I don't need a study to see the obvious.
 
Originally posted by OrthoFixation
Experience is life's greatest teacher. All I pointed out was that the cited authors were indicating culture and ethnicity was one of two primary causes. I don't need a study or a journalist to tell me that. It's called "Been around the block a few times."

This wasnt the impression I got from your previous post.

Originally posted by OrthoFixation LetGo, too bad that you don't want to hear racial identification with specific problems. Kind of like the parents in the study didn't want to hear they were part of the problem.

I think you misunderstood my comment. I didnt refute the findings. The problem arises when we identify problems with a specific race in mind. This is precisely the kind of thinking that results in racial profiling. Again, I'm only saying that we should careful when we identify social phenomena with specific races. Sometimes these turn into stereotypes such as "black people are lazy, etc..".

Originally posted by OrthoFixation I guess we should also ignore that most vilent crimes against blacks are committed by blacks....or that 9-11 terrorists were middle eastern. Facts are facts. I don't need a study to see the obvious.

My previous post in reply to yours championed matters of fact over ideology. I claim that in fact, it was you that ignored matters of fact and substituted your personal ideology that I interpreted as overemphasing personal accountability without taking into account the complexities of social interaction.
 
Outside of mecute's comments, this is a pretty good thread. I started to respond to others initially, but it was too much to deal with the immaturity in which other people responded. Here are some INITIAL contributing factors, in my humble academic and urm opinion:

1. Ok size of black folks are 'affuent' and/or middle class....but its no secret the overwhelming majority in this country live AND die in the GHETTO. Problem 1 without question. Public schools rate the lowest in the country. Drugs, gangs, and teen pregnancy are like epidemics. This is both internal and external in blame. I feel like occasionally black people in this environment act like crabs....as soon as one is heading out, someone latches on and he comes back down. I got 'shipped' out as you speak to attend school in the city, and I caught ALOT of flack from my friends at home...On the flip however, very little in my opinion is being done to improve the schools, outside of putting in metal detectors. Houses are left abandoned to be used for god knows what. ALOT of police are corrupted and partaking in the illegal activities... instead of really policing...its almost like its a joke. For the most part, people come into this places to do studies, but rarely come back in to rectify the problems.

2. This may be connected to 1. but SINGLE FAMILY HOMES. This is most devastating on the black male...simply because the single parent is 9/10 times the mother. It's an endless cycle. Dating back for decades. Essentially, most families of course are 'single-parent' however, there is a big difference between being divorced and being held accountable for the welfare of the children and being a "baby daddy" no where to be found. Black women on the whole are struggling to keep 'the black family' together or alive. The lack of a male 'role model' is a direct correlation to the lack of black males, relative to black females, pursuing higher education. No father figure leaves alot of black boys pretty much doomed to get caught up in the wrong thing. On the female end of it, it can go either way. I find many young black girls who are out there searching for their 'father' in the form of very premature sexual relationships with older men. Another aspect of this problem is the 'making ends meet' syndrome. Single parents working several jobs with no time to keep on top of their children's schoolwork or whereabouts. Having taught for a little, it is futile for a student to have a good teacher, and a nonexistent parent...or vice verse.

3. Superstar mentality. This includes wannabe rappers and athletes. Due to a gross misconception perpetuated by the likes of BET and MTV and regular media, it seems the average black child thinks it is EASIER, numbers wise, to become a rapper or an athlete(wage earning). This is a gross misconception. Statistically, it is still more likely for a black child to become a doctor than either of those. It doesn't help that these things are shoved down everyone's throats, not just black folk. But it has a higher impact, because in these 'icons', black children see themselves. They are thinking they want to be like Kobie or Jay Z rather than I want to be like any successful black businessperson, or doctor. Kobie's intelligence is overshadowed by his skillz on the court. And neither him OR jayz have a college degree. in fact, its pretty well-known fact that the smartest black man in the entertainment industry, p-diddy, DROPPED OUT of college. Where is the media coverage for the thousands of black doctors or ivy league graduates? For even one? Furthermore, WHO are the very visible successful black anything but rapper or athletes?


4. The notion of hardwork. For various cultures it means different things. Black people having been kept from formal education for YEARS AND YEARS, the value placed on academic hardwork is definitely lacking. This is in my opinion a direct result of slavery and institutionalized racism. My grandparents worked AND worked, but one with just an 8th grade education and the other who finished highschool...and THAT was an accomplishment. In many households MORE value is put on the hardwork necessary for a JOB ...to PAY the bills than to go to school. My grandmother still doesn't know the difference between Princeton, my ugrad school and Penn state. IVY league means nothing. Many, like her, believe that finishing highschool is the 'start of your adult life'. I think the concept of academic hardwork/achievement is a very important aspect completely missed by alot of working class black folks. WIthin the black community, you hear alot of "i can't wait to graduate highschool...so I can work." as opposed to "so i can go to college". The value is and has always been placed on the "wrong" thing, if we assume education is the ONLY right thing. It dates back to newly freed black sharecroppers not seeing the 'point' of wasting a son to school past 6th grade.
 
5. The above merely speak to perhaps elementary and highschool standardized test scores and grades. But I wanted to lay the ground work... from this the majority of a very paltry number of black med school applicants have emerged....roughly 2500 applications/year. I still refute this claim that SOO many of these people are 'rich urms' as was indicated in some other threads. Not that i think this species does NOT exist, I just am pretty confident its not the majority of black people benefitting from AA. I'd like to see the study that shows black med school applicants broken down into income intervals and showing their mcat scores and GPAs. I know of a FEW studies on elementary and highschool students.... However, i have not heard of the one for med school applicants. What we do know are AVERAGES...but we have no idea where the high scores and low scores are coming from. Anyway here are some factors-

- low gpas from inadequate college preparation on average. I saw this in ****loads at Princeton. While I was somewhat fortunate to have attended an all white private school SPECIFICALLY for college preparation...my closest black friends came from poorer, understaffed, primarily black public schools. While I came with an A- average, and my best friend the valedictorian at her Public school with a SICK 4.3 weighted average....She absolutely struggled with the course load, while I did not. I was sufficiently prepared....she on the other hand was in utter shock. It took her more than two-three semesters to recover....which included study groups and tutors. Not the only one. And not just happening in ivy league schools. Even folks headed to HBCUs get shocked at 'college level' work..if they have not been sufficiently prepared.

-low gpas from being both student and worker on average. my own personal issue. they dont mesh. and i not talking about the bs workstudy job in the library or cafeteria. i am talking about bill collectors from my house in bklyn calling ME about payments. I am talking carrying baggage, no matter how much you try to escape it..INTO college with you....generally financial burdens and baggage. Another commonality, my credit was SHOT prior to even getting into college. How many of you posters have been co-signers to YOUR PARENTS' debts? Another welldocumented problem within the black community, good credit is a rarity. I read an article about the number of black students dropping out from school...and it seems an overwhelming majority of them claimed financial reasons to be a factor. It is extremely difficult to be both student and worker....one is usually sacrificed. Usually school.

- lower mcat scores on average due to singleton administrations. my WHITE girlfriend was the first to point this out for me. At 185.00 a sitting, I am not sure of ANYONE that can afford to take the mcat more than once. However, time and time again, I peruse the boards and see that folks have taken it 2x, 3x, 4x....in an effort to improve their scores. I am wondering, do aamc averages on matriculants include the first two or three scores or the last good one...or only the highest or how do they do it? Anyone know? I am speculating, but I don't think too many black folks take the mcat more than once...regardless of score. While, aamc does say, however, that most test takers DO wind up taking the test again a second time. I can't help but think just based on sheer numbers(20k white applicants vs. 2k black applicants) that most of these people are white. And I can't help but wonder what type of implications are made in their matriculant statistics.

-lower mcat scores because of no access to test prep. Pretty obvious..I looked around my test prep course in the middle of PHILLY and saw I was the only black face.... with schools such as temple, drexel, jefferson with pretty relatively large black populations in the area. I practically sold my soul to get into this course..because i think the MOST valuable thing they offer is the proctored simulations of the real thing. It definitely paid off in my opinion, as I scored a 36...well above the 'average' for black matriculating students. According to the test prep companies, over 80% of testtakers take some sort of course. Again, based on sheer numbers, I am guessing most of the 80% are white people. Does that give them an advantage? I don't know. I do think my score would have been significantly lower studying on my own and trying to proctor tests on my own. Would I like to know from black applicants on the high end of mcat scores, if they studied alone or had a testprep...most definitely. Some people are torn on the mcat stating that hardwork = good score no matter what means...some say testprep is the only way to go....and some say its completely arbitrary and based on whether you take standardized tests well. Its possible all three. Maybe black folks as a group aren't working hard enough to study...I doubt that. COntrary to the belief that we all believe we should just chill and coast by because AA will get us anywhere we need to go, most black folks I know who have made it this far..ie college, are in fact hardworkers and stress just as much as the next one over the mcat. I think the latter two might contribute significantly to the lower scores, on average.

Goodness, i just realized how much i had typed. I type really fast so sometimes I am unaware. I will stop so some of my thoughts can be digested instead of glossed over. Again, these are generally my opinions, which everyone is entitled to. I definitely think that AA is not a perfect system. However, I see its positives outweighing the negatives. I believe in order for many of the above situations to change, ADDITIONAL steps need to be taken starting from early development.
 
Originally posted by Ms. Dawson, DO
-I am talking carrying baggage, no matter how much you try to escape it..INTO college with you....generally financial burdens and baggage. Another commonality, my credit was SHOT prior to even getting into college. How many of you posters have been co-signers to YOUR PARENTS' debts? Another welldocumented problem within the black community, good credit is a rarity. I read an article about the number of black students dropping out from school...and it seems an overwhelming majority of them claimed financial reasons to be a factor. It is extremely difficult to be both student and worker....

-lower mcat scores because of no access to test prep. Pretty obvious..I looked around my test prep course in the middle of PHILLY and saw I was the only black face...



...always the victim. how about some personal accountability every now and then?
 
dude suck it up and work hard quit complainin
 
Ms Dawson, thanks for sharing your personal experiences. It's unfortunate that the two previous posts attempted to marginalize your experience.

Your story highlights many privledges in my own life that I occasionally take for granted. I realize how lucky I am to have awesome financial support from my parents (I will be starting on my second bachelor's degree shortly).

I only wish more people could empathize with the struggles of others in order to lead to real solutions to real problems without personal criticisms.

A healer's most valuable asset is patient empathy.
 
Originally posted by bubbajones
dude suck it up and work hard quit complainin

my attitude in the "why asians succeed" thread must be contagious :D

I thought Ms Dawson's review was pretty comprehensive and I agree for the most part with the conclusion.

Just one more thing to add: The alternative plan to give points only to the poor and not URMs invalidates AA as the most direct answer for rectifying previous poor-victim arguments. However the quest for racial diversity using AA has no better alternative.
 
I also agree that Ms. Dawson's review was very comprehensive and well-thought out.

(Note to flamers: See, she stuck to the FACTS! Grow up and try it once, it might get you a little respect!)

And in reply to the personal accountability statement, I strongly believe that everyone should get up off their butt and work for what they want instead of expecting it to be handed to them. However, I also feel it only becomes a truly valid "sorting factor" when all else is basically held to be equal. One must have the tools to do the job before one can start and there is no way around that.

Going back to her point about inadequate high school classwork, I will give you an additional example from my life. The senior English class that I was put into at that school was the most advanced they offered. What we were doing in there was basically diagramming sentences and reviewing straight grammar! Stuff I'd learned in sixth and seventh grade. Moreover, these kids were still struggling with it. And they had a TEXTBOOK! With some short stories and exercises basically asking you to repeat what was in the story. When I finally was able to transfer to a private college prep high school, I was immediately launched into Wuthering Heights and Catch-22.

The difference in educational level was just astounding. Obviously, if this is all that is available to these kids, how do you expect them to succeed in college no matter how hard they try? Nowhere in that school, in any of my classes, was any aspect of critical thinking even mentioned, let alone applied. It was all just mechanics, and if that's what you're used to and are suddenly thrown into a college environment where critical thinking is not only emphasized but demanded of you, how well do you think you'd do?

In reply to the poster who implied that I was trying to attach racial stereotypes by my example, I was not in any way trying to do so. It simply was a fact that I was one of only five white students at that school, and the remaining several hundred were black. You'll notice I'm from the Milwaukee area, and Milwaukee is known for being notoriously segregated. This is not an uncommon thing, despite all efforts to the contrary. The only reason I appeared to "single" out black people was that it was my only real experience of cultural immersion in anything different than what I grew up in. Nothing more.

And that segregation in my general area is what makes me long to get the heck out of here!!! I will admit that too many people I know like to spout nice things about diversity, but when a black child enrolled in my kids' all-white school last year, I was shocked at the amount of negative comments I heard from a lot of the parents. My daughter also endured some ridicule from playing with this girl and I used the opportunity to teach her about strengthening personal convictions in the face of opposition, but I know I'm a rarity (at least around here). This also is another contributing factor. So many people agree with things in theory, but when they become reality they can't deal with it. It's a very insular and cliquey upper-middle class small community, and the longer I live here, the more I hate it.

Also, if anyone on this post really would care to put some thought into their viewpoints instead of parroting personal ideologies (hint, hint), I highly recommend reading The Pact. I don't remember the authors' names, but it's the story of three black physicians who made it out of the ghetto. It will give you a true idea of what the forces are that ALL underprivileged and minority people have to face in this world.

OK, enough now.....stepping down from the soapbox.....attack me if you see an error in my logic or have a valid point you'd like to debate...I have all the respect in the world for that. Flaming, however, come on, this isn't high school anymore!
 
Originally posted by chrisaina
I have not read all the threads, so I may be repetitive here. I am a black male and I believe that the reason that blacks, as a group, do not perform as well as the other races is because, in our community, we place a higher value on sports and entertainment than on education. The role models that our youth hold dear are basketball and football players not physicians (Dr. Ben Carson) or Supreme Court Justices (Thurgood Marshall/Clarence Thomas). This is truly upsetting to me. There are still people in our community that wear a jail sentence or a life as a drug dealer like a badge of honor. At my undergraduate university, I would sit in the front or near the front of the class, while many of my fellow black classmates sat in the back. Their purpose for this location was to clown and to giggle for the whole class period. I felt sorry for the professor. When I was growing up, I was often ridiculed by other blacks for talking "proper". What is talking proper? What they really meant was talking like white people. What is wrong with being articulate? It is not a matter of being black or white. It is a matter of speaking the English language the way it is supposed to be spoken or very near to it. Education is the key to our "freedom". We must become free from government hand-outs and from a lack of responsibility. No one is holding us back but ourselves. We must embrace education and make it a goal in our lives. I will begin my medical studies in ~ 3-4 weeks. I will continue to work hard throughout my medical career and I will become the best physician that I possibly can become. I hope that one day, like Dr. Ben Carson, I will be the role model to some ambitious, driven, and dedicated student who wants to break free from the "chains" of stereotypes and low expectations.

Not all URMs revel in the specter of entitlements. Here is an enlightened person with a strong vision and clear goals. Unfortunately, this is also the type of person that the Al Sharptons, Jesse Jacksons and Ms. Dawsons of the world would call an "Uncle Tom."
 
The Pact: Three Young Men Make a Promise and Fulfill a Dream by Samson Davis, George Jenkins, et al.

Just ordered it.
 
Originally posted by LetGo of TheEgo
From the NY times article


I think I would find it difficult to track my child's schooling if I had 2 or 3 jobs.


Nice...I spotted that one too LetGo of The Ego!!! excuse my reasoning, but given that this was an affluent community ( i mean average house costs ~$240,000 by reports of OP), and Mr Ogbu saying that "doctors and lawyers" comprised most of the kids' parents/Afro-American portion of the community......aren't the people with 2 - 3 jobs trying to live above their means?....(i mean can't they trade part of their "champagne-lifestyle" for more time with their kids?) and if so, i guess it's the "doctors and Lawyers" who have 2 - 3 jobs or isn't it?

Uhuru!
 
Originally posted by juddson
More to the point, the community is upper middle class (with a good spattering of uber-wealthy), where the median home cost is approx. $240,000. Most children in shaker heights schools, including African American students, have professional parents.
Judd

Are you kidding me? $240,000 is a median home cost for an upper middle class neighborhood? I live in Norcal. I live in a middle class neighborhood, not even upper middle class. The median house price here is 500K and this is one of the most affordable places to live in the Bay Area. Apparently I need to move to Ohio.
 
I have to apologize for my post. It's totally irrelevant to the conversation at hand.
 
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