2.96uGPA 4.0gGPA 33O applying June 2011

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
theWUbear

theWUbear

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2009
Messages
1,873
Reaction score
61
Members don't see this ad.
Edits in red

Grades

Graduated undergrad at WUSTL [Mathematics]
cGPA: 2.59
sGPA: 2.07

Completing second undergrad degree at state U next semester [Biology] (Summer/Fall 2009, Spring/Summer 2010, Spring 2011)
cGPA: 3.95
sGPA: 3.94

AMCAS Numbers: cGPA 2.96, sGPA 2.79

Currently halfway finished with UMDNJ-GSBS SMP [will finish Summer/Fall 2011]
gGPA: 4.0
Honors in med school class

MCAT: 12P 11V 10B O

Bench research
One summer in a neuroscience lab at State Med - LOR from PI (A State Med prof)
Two papers in submission: One second author, one fifth author

Clinical Research/Clinical Experience
Three years clinical research in infectious disease clinic at State Med. LOR from PI (a department head and prof at State Med). On one project: worked with 150 patients. Promises of at least 2 or 3 of the 6 projects I helped with turning into second author papers sooner or later 🙄
First author on one poster presentation (submitted, not yet accepted), Second author on two poster presentations (submitted, not yet accepted)
Used opportunities researching at State Med to shadow in many specialties.

Leadership/Extracurricular Experience
Various leadership roles during undergrad - president of one of largest student groups on campus, used position to create majors and open up opportunities for other students

Volunteer Experience
Emergency Room Volunteer, starting in Late April
Member or team captain or head committee member of Relay for Life each year from 2003 to 2009
Assisted with AIDS Day and other patient appreciation day events at ID clinic

I plan on applying to the following schools:

Albany Med
Buffalo
Commonwealth
Cooper Med
Drexel
Einstein
EVMS
GWU SOM
Hofstra
Howard
Jefferson
Loyola Chicago
Morehouse
MSSM
NJMS
NYMC
Penn State
Ponce
RFU CMS
RWJMS
San Juan Bautista
SLU
Stony Brook
SUNY Downstate
Temple
Tulane
UCC
VaTech
VCU
Wake Forest
Adding NYU, removing Puerto Rico schools
I've already done half the secondary essays. Any comments/critiques/advice? Thank you guys
 
Last edited:
lol dropped off the first page without a response. I guess i'll take that as a good thing, since nobody has thought to tell me I have no chance. bumping for a response...
 
Catalystik said:
Any shadowing or noncampus nonmedical community service(the traditionally black schools and Loyola will want to see this)? Hobbies? Unique components?

Any chance your uGPA will be > 3.0 after next semester?

Yes, you have a chance.
Click to expand...

theWUbear said:
Used opportunities researching at State Med to shadow in many specialties.
Click to expand...

Additionally, i did relay for life before college and during college as a volunteer activity (though in college it is blurred between volunteerism and extracurricular). Hobbies: tennis, saxophone (was in a band, listing this under employment), not much else.

I assumed a 4.0 next semester in writing the 2.96 GPA...so that seems to be my ceiling unfortunately
 
theWUbear said:
Additionally, i did relay for life before college and during college as a volunteer activity (though in college it is blurred between volunteerism and extracurricular).

Hobbies: tennis, saxophone (was in a band, listing this under employment), not much else.

I assumed a 4.0 next semester in writing the 2.96 GPA...so that seems to be my ceiling unfortunately
Click to expand...
I was thinking the Relay for Life looked more like another Leadership activity (with an altruistic slant).

I looked for shadowing a few times and never saw it, maybe because the heading listed Research first; sorry.

Depending on your feelings about it, you could also list your music involvement under Artistic Endeavor (mentioning the renumeration in the free-text portion), if you think it would balance the application more.
 
Thanks for the advice, Catalystik.


Got another question, this may be getting greedy.

Would top ~20 schools not touch me with a 10 foot poll, or would it not hurt to throw my application in there?

Hear me out:
If someone says, "OK, this guy just graduated undergrad with a 3.9 in Biology, 33 MCAT, clinical research with patient contact, bench research, fantastic LORs, pubs, 4.0 grad school, honored med school courses - i think i will throw out the first bachelors with the 2.6 because i don't think its relevant"

the beauty is - of the 30 i'm trying to apply to now, and of whatever top school i apply to, all i need is one adcom to like me enough to throw out the first bachelors grades and i become an extremely competitive (dare i say impressive, sdn quality) applicant.

perhaps nobody here can really answer this for sure, other than "yeah its not likely but I guess it could happen", and my best bet is to attempt to arrange a meeting with people in admissions
 
If you have the money it might be worth a shot. If you're unique enough, they might be interested.
 
I'm not one to stomp on dreams (much), and except for the loss of some application dollars how will it hurt to try?

I don't really hang out in the Postbac Programs Forum much, but I've never heard of an SMPer getting into a top twenty, have you?

I've never heard of an adcomm throwing out the grades of the first bachelors degree completely. Maybe the first year, many two, but not all four.

But I do see miracles happen sometimes against all odds. Maybe you'll be the next one. Adcomms do love a good redemption story.
 
im in similar situation, lower GPA, competitive MCAt, great EC's, professional jazz musician. I think you will for sure get an interview from at least a couple of schools(same for me!). My opinion is that they will see you taking all of those classes and getting good grades as you screwed around the first time but now your serious. They definately will take into account your previous years, but it all depends on the admissions people that are looking at you! If I was an admissions person thats how I would see it, especially because your a fellow musician! Diversity in your application can help you connect with admissions people that have common interests.
Everyone applying as like 5 years lab experience, research papers published, bla bla...all of that has become more standard as opposed to standing out.
Also, if anyone in these forums puts you down they usually have nothing else better to do/are f*gs. The point of these places are too help people and give advice.

Id say definately put reach schools in your application(Harvard, Columbia), because all stats you see are averages. You can always be the outlier!
 
gmcguitar4 said:
Also, if anyone in these forums puts you down they usually have nothing else better to do/are f*gs. The point of these places are too help people and give advice.
Click to expand...

Don't be that guy.

The point of forums like this is to be realistic and help people do the same.

Yes, his 2nd undergrad is awesome. It is! But if the adcoms don't undo the first one, then how does that help him?

I'd be sure to throw in a DO school or two on the list, just for safety's sake.
 
Wow! Your second undergrad GPA, and EC's, are amazing! Unfortunately, I don't think any adcoms will just ignore your first undergrad GPA. Your upward grade trend is better than most, for sure. You are doing better your second time around than most people do their first time around. So, you may get some love. I'd apply to a few reach schools, just for the hell of it, as everyone should. You never know. Just don't get your hopes up about getting into a top 20 school. Chances are, the people applying at that level of competition have similar stats to yours, but without the poor, first undergrad GPA.
 
Apply wisely and I bet you'll get some interviews. I don't know about Top-20, but you should definitely get some interest from other schools. Adcoms can and do look past your GPA when you have great post-bacc numbers like that. You can even argue that the disparity makes you more interesting. Just know you'll have to answer "why the sudden change" in an interview situation.
 
Under 3.0 GPA gives you very poor chances. Not trying to be a dick, but it's probably going to slaughter you. keep bringing it up as you have been.
 
You know buddy I have to say that is a pretty fine looking improvement on your record. The second bachelor’s degree and graduate performance is going to stand out. The total GPA is not good but I would place a bet you would get in somewhere. It depends on the application pool at the time. I am just speculating but I can’t imagine you at least not getting any interviews.
 
My advice, fwiw, would be to make sure you apply to the schools which themselves have an associated SMP. I noticed while applying this year that those schools are the only ones that gave my very unlikely application a second look and offered me interviews.
May just be my experience, but who knows. Maybe these are the only schools which know what to do with an SMP GPA when they see it.
 
Doctorella said:
My advice, fwiw, would be to make sure you apply to the schools which themselves have an associated SMP. I noticed while applying this year that those schools are the only ones that gave my very unlikely application a second look and offered me interviews.
May just be my experience, but who knows. Maybe these are the only schools which know what to do with an SMP GPA when they see it.
Click to expand...

hmmm sounds logical. i suppose that, having read this, i am now leaning towards adding BU and Tufts to my list
 
Catalystik said:
...I don't really hang out in the Postbac Programs Forum much, but I've never heard of an SMPer getting into a top twenty, have you?...
Click to expand...

Actually, I had classmates from my SMP accepted to UCSF and Chapel Hill...
 
I have to add another thing. I noticed your bad grades are at a highly prestigous university for undergraduate. Even though you did poorly there, having a good university on your background does help in my opinion. My reasoning behind this is I knew a guy who had below a 3.0 from Johns Hopkins for undergraduate, minimal post bac work, 30-35 MCAT and had multiple acceptances.
 
Last edited:
Can anyone comment specifically on my amount of clinical/patient experience?

I have a bit of shadowing (to which a head of admissions recently told me 'i don't really care about shadowing, it seems too much like one follows a doctor around and doesn't do anything in shadowing'), and a lot of 'clinical research', but most of it does not count as patient experience because it was retrospective studies working with charts, excel, etc.

So, I have limited shadowing and I ran one study in which I saw 150 patients and performed pulmonary function tests on them, explained the test and told them their results.

Obviously, there are a lot of people who will be applying with years of EMS work, and a lot of other clinical experiences. How does my amount of (and type of) patient contact rank? Am I a bit low in this category?
 
theWUbear said:
I have a bit of shadowing (to which a head of admissions recently told me 'i don't really care about shadowing, it seems too much like one follows a doctor around and doesn't do anything in shadowing'), and a lot of 'clinical research', but most of it does not count as patient experience because it was retrospective studies working with charts, excel, etc. How does my amount of (and type of) patient contact rank? Am I a bit low in this category?
Click to expand...

I agree, that your direct interaction with patients is limited, but your other ECs are very good and could very well compensate.

Generally, a person asking this question would ask early on in the hopes of changing their actions accordingly. To them I would suggest additional volunteering, etc. For a person in your position, where you're merely asking "will it stop me from gaining acceptance" I would say apply with what clinical experience you've got, since there's not much you can add in the near future (since most volunteer positions are a one semester commitment and no one will hire you for 3 months as a nurses' aide, EMT, etc).
 
theWUbear said:
Can anyone comment specifically on my amount of clinical/patient experience?

I have limited shadowing and I ran one study in which I saw 150 patients and performed pulmonary function tests on them, explained the test and told them their results.

Am I a bit low in this category?
Click to expand...

Bump for further opinions

Thanks aSagacious
 
Eleventh hour worries? Sigh. If someone who's been on SDN as long as you have has a concern, it's probably worth paying attention to.

Was the direct patient interaction of at least a year's duration? Can you estimate the probable total hours spent with those 150 patients? How many actual shadowing hours do you estimate you accumulated?

What do you think is a good solution for decreasing your concern?
 
Catalystik said:
Eleventh hour worries? Sigh. If someone who's been on SDN as long as you have has a concern, it's probably worth paying attention to.

Was the direct patient interaction of at least a year's duration? Can you estimate the probable total hours spent with those 150 patients? How many actual shadowing hours do you estimate you accumulated?

What do you think is a good solution for decreasing your concern?
Click to expand...

I met with a Dean of admissions recently, and used 'varied clinical experiences' as an answer to "how do you know medicine is right for you'? When I said I've shadowed in many disciplines at State Med he said "you know, i have this vision of shadowing where you just hover around a doctor and don't actually interact with patients. what else?" I then mentioned my clinical study where I saw 150 patients.

He seemed to be of the opinion that I could use more clinical experience.

This could be due to one of two possibilities:

1. I Didn't explain enough how significant that experience was (it was about half an hour per patient with 150 patients so i'll say 75 hours of direct patient interaction where I was providing care - doing pulmonary function tests and going over the results)

and/or

2. The 75 hours of direct patient work (and maybe....50 hours of shadowing) actually isn't that much. Regardless of the fact that I provided care on my own and 'ran the show' with a clinical study (which involved hundreds of hours of data work and screening, while i worked out of a clinic every day that has patient volume in the thousands - but again with only 75 hours of face time with patients), I need to accumulate more hours of work with patients to be on par and not have that show as a 'weakness' in my application. And it's clear I need no weaknesses with the GPA I have.

I'd appreciate if anyone could further opine as to whether my clinical experience seems to be very low (even a reaffirmation or update of your original post, catalysk).


I have signed up for a volunteer program at State Med's hospital. Your opinions will help me decide how hard and how soon I want to hit this volunteer gig. With semester final exams and deadlines for research abstract submissions approaching, I can use every hour of free time. But if it's important for me to up my clinical experience hours, I will start this in April and try to get it rolling before doing apps in Mid-may.

Thanks again
 
JustUseYourHead said:
Under 3.0 GPA gives you very poor chances. Not trying to be a dick, but it's probably going to slaughter you. keep bringing it up as you have been.
Click to expand...

I value all responses regardless of whether they are positive (encouraging) or negative (inspiring caution, and also encouraging). Thank you for your response - I know I will still be scraping the bottom of the barrel as an applicant when I apply and need to keep that in mind.

However, if I were to play devil's advocate to you, or more importantly to a member of an admissions committee who would bring that up, I would state that the GPA number fails to be relevant in and of itself in my case. I received one B at state U. If I didn't, I would be valedictorian of the class of 2011 at a major state university this May. Let me reiterate that: I am one grade shy of valedictorian of a major university's 2011 graduating class. My total GPA shows earlier immaturity and it will be my job to show ADCOMs that there is no way I will 'revert' to that kind of performance ever again.
 
This is an interesting case ...when i clicked i thought my answer would be that you have 0 chance and that your grad GPA isn't impressing anyone given your horrible undergrad GPA.

However after reading your post I think there might be a few schools out there that will give you serious consideration seeing as you completed a second degree with almost a 4.0 and are acing a SMP.

One thing that stands out though is that you shouldn't try passing off clinical research as clinical experience. doing PFTs as part of a research study (if i understand your posts correctly) is not "providing care" nor is it clinical experience in the eyes of many med schools. You're not getting a sense of what being a doctor is like if your only contact with patients is in the context of research. You need at least some shadowing experience.

In terms of your school list:
1. if you are not fluent in spanish then go ahead delete the PR schools since that would be a waste of the application fee... i know they look like good choices because their stats are low except that their stats are low because they are looking for a very specific type of student
2. in my opinion if you aren't african american don't waste your time with howard and morehouse ...this one is more debatable than #1 though
3. why isn't SUNY upstate on your list?
4. it's ok to apply to a couple of reach schools but keep in mind that the chances are VERY slim so literally apply to maximum 2 that you would LOVE to go to. The way i define a reach school is a school with a median MCAT score equal to or greater than your MCAT score.
 
theWUbear said:
I met with a Dean of admissions recently, and used 'varied clinical experiences' as an answer to "how do you know medicine is right for you'? When I said I've shadowed in many disciplines at State Med he said "you know, i have this vision of shadowing where you just hover around a doctor and don't actually interact with patients. what else?" I then mentioned my clinical study where I saw 150 patients.

He seemed to be of the opinion that I could use more clinical experience.

This could be due to one of two possibilities:

1. I Didn't explain enough how significant that experience was (it was about half an hour per patient with 150 patients so i'll say 75 hours of direct patient interaction where I was providing care - doing pulmonary function tests and going over the results)

and/or

2. The 75 hours of direct patient work (and maybe....50 hours of shadowing) actually isn't that much. Regardless of the fact that I provided care on my own and 'ran the show' with a clinical study (which involved hundreds of hours of data work and screening, while i worked out of a clinic every day that has patient volume in the thousands - but again with only 75 hours of face time with patients), I need to accumulate more hours of work with patients to be on par and not have that show as a 'weakness' in my application. And it's clear I need no weaknesses with the GPA I have.

I'd appreciate if anyone could further opine as to whether my clinical experience seems to be very low (even a reaffirmation or update of your original post, catalysk).


I have signed up for a volunteer program at State Med's hospital. Your opinions will help me decide how hard and how soon I want to hit this volunteer gig. With semester final exams and deadlines for research abstract submissions approaching, I can use every hour of free time. But if it's important for me to up my clinical experience hours, I will start this in April and try to get it rolling before doing apps in Mid-may.

Thanks again
Click to expand...
Yes, it's important for you to have more "clinical experience. Your initial post gave the impression that you also had broader clinical contact during the three years of infectious disease research. Unlike SkinMD, I do think your face time with patients doing PFTs has been significant (as it would be were you a phlebotomist or respiratory therapist). But 75 hours isn't that much (I'm sure you know my usual "averages" speech by now) and the patients perhaps didn't have a variety of illnesses, so it was not a "broad" experience. The fact that it was solid, high-quality time not spent cleaning beds and providing ice water may not be appreciated by someone scanning your application rapidly. And it's true, as you say, that someone with a significant weakness in their application can't afford to be below average anywhere else.

Your 50 hours of shadowing is about the average, as you know. maybe you could tell us more about this.
 
Catalystik said:
Unlike SkinMD, I do think your face time with patients doing PFTs has been significant (as it would be were you a phlebotomist or respiratory therapist).
Click to expand...

i wasn't saying it's insignificant i was just pointing out that the context is important. OP is doing PFTs as part of a study while phlebotomists, respiratory therapists, EMTs, paramedics, CNAs, etc are taking part in and experiencing the management of patients in a healthcare setting. calling your participation in a research study "providing care" isn't correct
 
skinMD said:
calling your participation in a research study "providing care" isn't correct
Click to expand...
Sorry if I misunderstood what you intended to convey. We don't really know if care was provided since we don't know the context within which the interaction occurred. For example: If the patients needed PFTs regardless and were recruited for the study after it was ordered by their physician, then WUBear was "providing care." If not, then at the minimum, he was still interacting with patients ('smelling them', as it were).
 
Thanks for the clarification. I recruited patients from all medical subspecialties (heart failure clinic, ID, endocrinology aka the diabetes clinic, nephrology, hepatology, etc.) so I did interact with a variety of patients, but as SkinMD pointed out I did not witness them in a truly medical setting (i.e. as they were being seen by their physician, so their respective maladies does not really make a difference from a medical experience perspective). They also, with the exception of two patients, were not scheduled to receive PFT's as part of their care. I should note that a few others, upon my relaying their poor results from the spirometry test to their general practitioner, were referred to pulmonology for further testing. It is a nice story for me to be able to say my research may have assisted in the detection of abnormalities in these few patients. In a way, the diagnostic nature of the PFT may have assisted in the care of those patients, but that certainly wasn't the intent of the research.

I haven't heard your 'averages' bit actually catalystik, care to enlighten?
 
Last edited:
theWUbear- Pulling for you, and pulling for you a lot! I also have a lousy GPA from a decent (though not Wash U St. Louis) undergrad institution and want to throw my 2 cents in because no one else has mentioned the personal statement. IF you can convince adcoms in your PS that you have significantly changed since your undergrad GPA, I really think that will help. You've shown it with your GPA at your second bachelors and SMP, use your PS to explain WHAT/WHY the change... there has to have been a personal growth moment/something that made you get your (obviously capable) ***** in gear. Convince the adcoms that you are worth it with your PS.
I thought my *new* GPA would make a lot of difference... and was told to make all of the above clear in my PS, because adcoms may not always read your GPA's (all 16 versions) the way we want them to. Tell what you've shown in your improvement. BEST OF LUCK! Hope to cross your path as a MS1 next year!!
 
theWUbear said:
I haven't heard your 'averages' bit actually catalystik, care to enlighten?
Click to expand...
Sure you have: averaged clinical experience listed (including work, volunteer, research, and class credit) by all applicants is about 150 hours over 1.5 years, which is not to say you can't get in with less, because people do. But to appeal to the broadest range of schools, it's maybe a good idea to be close to that, so that adcomms can appreciate that you know what you're getting yourself into, and so that there's a good chance you can answer basic related questions during interviews. I have seen applicants with over two years of regular clinical experience NOT be able to answer appropriately, so everyone's learning curve/observation skills/maturity/empathy, etc obviously varies widely.
 
Just got told by a dean of admissions at a mid-level (reach for me) private school that 99 percent of medical schools won't consider applicants without a 3.0 core and science GPA. that's disheartening
 
Is that 2.96 with retaking some classes. Because if that's the case, you could see that gpa sore into DO average range. I would really just apply broadly. If money is not an issue, go for 30 md and 10 do. It can't hurt. You may get automatically filtered out of some schools, but maybe some will give you a fighting chance. Apply first thing in June!
 
theWUbear said:
Just got told by a dean of admissions at a mid-level (reach for me) private school that 99 percent of medical schools won't consider applicants without a 3.0 core and science GPA. that's disheartening
Click to expand...
https://www.aamc.org/download/157450/data/table24-mcatgpagridall2008-10.pdf.pdf

Based on the above information, 1133 appicants with a cGPA of 1.47 to 2.99 (making up a pool of 10,604) were accepted last year to AMCAS schools for a ~10.7% acceptance rate. So obviously a good number more than 1133 were "considered." For your specific stats bin that included 2.93/33, 177 were accepted. Extrapolating for your exact stats, the chance of success was ~ 27%.
 
Catalystik said:
https://www.aamc.org/download/157450/data/table24-mcatgpagridall2008-10.pdf.pdf

Based on the above information, 1133 appicants with a cGPA of 1.47 to 2.99 (making up a pool of 10,604) were accepted last year to AMCAS schools for a ~10.7% acceptance rate. So obviously a good number more than 1133 were "considered." For your specific stats bin that included 2.93/33, 177 were accepted. Extrapolating for your exact stats, the chance of success was ~ 27%.
Click to expand...

Very good point Catalystik. reassuring. gotta keep working to mainatain 4.0 this semester
 
Thank you all for the feedback, and the supportive words.

Here's a hypothetical situation for you guys, that isn't so hypothetical for me.

If you were strongly suggested to apply early to your State Med School by members of an ADCOM, (them saying "it would really show your commitment to us), but of course there is no guarantee of acceptance - but there is a guarantee they will decide by mid-July on the ED (so if you're not accepted AMCAS goes out next day mid july to all other schools)

would you apply ED if you were me?
 
theWUbear said:
Thank you all for the feedback, and the supportive words.

Here's a hypothetical situation for you guys, that isn't so hypothetical for me.

If you were strongly suggested to apply early to your State Med School by members of an ADCOM, (them saying "it would really show your commitment to us), but of course there is no guarantee of acceptance - but there is a guarantee they will decide by mid-July on the ED (so if you're not accepted AMCAS goes out next day mid july to all other schools)

would you apply ED if you were me?
Click to expand...

Hell YES. My question would be why not?
 
theWUbear said:
Thank you all for the feedback, and the supportive words.

Here's a hypothetical situation for you guys, that isn't so hypothetical for me.

If you were strongly suggested to apply early to your State Med School by members of an ADCOM, (them saying "it would really show your commitment to us), but of course there is no guarantee of acceptance - but there is a guarantee they will decide by mid-July on the ED (so if you're not accepted AMCAS goes out next day mid july to all other schools)

would you apply ED if you were me?
Click to expand...

Hmm. I personally wouldn't do it, but if you trust the guarantee I could understand why you would.
 
Well guys, I got in EDP. I did early decision because it seemed to be in my best interests. Basically over a two year period I realized my primary objective was straight A's at any cost, and I sought and took advice from a variety of sources, always following through and letting people know that I did.
 
theWUbear said:
Well guys, I got in EDP. I did early decision because it seemed to be in my best interests. Basically over a two year period I realized my primary objective was straight A's at any cost, and I sought and took advice from a variety of sources, always following through and letting people know that I did.
Click to expand...

class of 2016...?

grats !!!!! 👍
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

T
WAMC: (3.67uGPA, 4.0gGPA 516); FL Resident
Replies
7
Views
717
Faha
F
M
Applying This Cycle, Please Review!
Replies
8
Views
745
jvquarterback
jvquarterback
S
WAMC - non-trad(ish) applying in May
Replies
12
Views
984
Goro
Goro
O
What to improve before applying 2026 cycle
Replies
6
Views
918
OrcaLover
O
J
Applying this cycle, any advice would be great! (3.79/517)
Replies
2
Views
945
Faha
F
Top