Updated: New allopath/osteopath med school list

Socrates25 · May 27, 2011

rbnsafsadgf · May 27, 2011

#25. OHSU-Eugene doesn't exist. There was some talk of it, but it never happened.

patel2 · May 27, 2011

I see no problem with this. It just means FMGs will be screwed over more in the match, but residency programs are not really expanding so what's the issue?

AlexMorph · May 27, 2011

patel2 said:
I see no problem with this. It just means FMGs will be screwed over more in the match, but residency programs are not really expanding so what's the issue?

You don't want the pool to be diluted so much. A few more med schools, fine. These many...not good. Not that all of them will end up being built but even if half of them do...not good.

shaggy alfresco · May 27, 2011

And for the thousandth time, medical schools can never be like law schools because it's the number of residencies that cap how many physicians there are. And until there are more students than residencies, there will be enough residencies for all us grads.

DocEspana · May 27, 2011

This list has some problems.... on a really rapid look through:
1) You listed Touro NJ twice
2) Touro NJ no longer exists. The project was stopped and the land was sold
3) Homer J Simpson.... errr... G Phillips no longer exists either. The MOAPS nixed it last year.

EDIT: Probably safe to assume Barry University and University of Southern Nevada wont happen either. Both of those "applications" are over 6 years old and I cant find any evidence of ground being broken on it. Schools go up completely in <5 years. 6 years without any news on it seems likely that the project was cancelled but no one told that AOA page.

werd · May 27, 2011

the number of new doctors entering into practice in the US right now is limited by residency spots, not med school spots. for allopathic, there are about 16k med school grads each year vying for about 25k residency spots. the rest of residency positions are filled by foreign grads, DO's, reapplicants, etc.

if the number of residency spots increases, there will be more new doctors entering practice each year;

if the number of med school grads increases, there will either be fewer foreign grads matching or more US med school grads not matching. it will probably be mostly but not entirely the former.

Just Joshin · May 27, 2011

shaggy alfresco said:
And for the thousandth time, medical schools can never be like law schools because it's the number of residencies that cap how many physicians there are. And until there are more students than residencies, there will be enough residencies for all us grads.

Enough residencies in FM, sure.

Just Joshin · May 27, 2011

werd said:
the number of new doctors entering into practice in the US right now is limited by residency spots, not med school spots. for allopathic, there are about 16k med school grads each year vying for about 25k residency spots. the rest of residency positions are filled by foreign grads, DO's, reapplicants, etc.

if the number of residency spots increases, there will be more new doctors entering practice each year;

if the number of med school grads increases, there will either be fewer foreign grads matching or more US med school grads not matching. it will probably be mostly but not entirely the former.

I'm not sure why some don't seem to understand that. Pre-meds, I can see, because they're clueless (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=824614) but med students? Come on.

motomed · May 27, 2011

Socrates25 said:
In 25 years, med schools = law schools. The people at Hopkins/Harvard will be set for life. The people at "Campbell University School of Osteopathic Medicine" will be doomed to 65k per year midlevel-type jobs in urgent care.

Estimated 6000 new medical students....
Nearly 60 new medical schools since 2006
1 huge problem.....

so be smart about where you go to school. I don't really have a problem with us getting past the point where getting into med school gives you a golden ticket and you just go through the motions and you've got a sweet job. I'm fine with residencies being filled up with US grads and the less prestigious specialties and locations actually seeing some competition. this should not be concerning to anyone going to a US med school who is willing to work hard. I can see why people counting on the caribbean and maybe even DO students would be concerned, but you'll have a tough time convincing the general public and policy makers that this is a bad thing. do you feel sorry for the lawyers who went to a crap school and now have a crap job? didn't think so.

PMPMD · May 27, 2011

5. MD - Cleveland Clinic/Lerner - 2004

I wouldn't worry about this program diluting the talent pool. It's a small (~30 students) program for physician-scientists.

Regal Regan · May 27, 2011

motomed said:
so be smart about where you go to school. I don't really have a problem with us getting past the point where getting into med school gives you a golden ticket and you just go through the motions and you've got a sweet job. I'm fine with residencies being filled up with US grads and the less prestigious specialties and locations actually seeing some competition. this should not be concerning to anyone going to a US med school who is willing to work hard. I can see why people counting on the caribbean and maybe even DO students would be concerned, but you'll have a tough time convincing the general public and policy makers that this is a bad thing. do you feel sorry for the lawyers who went to a crap school and now have a crap job? didn't think so.

With all due respect, that's a short-sighted argument. Many US MD graduates didn't match this year, so anyone looking into getting 250 K in debt at a US MD school should be concerned. It's really not realistic to think that just because there will be more competition for residencies, it'll only affect non-US MD students.

shaggy alfresco · May 27, 2011

Just Joshin said:
Enough residencies in FM, sure.

It makes no sense to have more residencies than US students.

osteohopeful09 · May 27, 2011

patel2 said:
I see no problem with this. It just means FMGs will be screwed over more in the match, but residency programs are not really expanding so what's the issue?

why is there so much FMG hate on this board? You guys mad that some kids did worse than you in undergrad, but still have a chance to prove themselves (and many do)? I get some flack for going DO, I feel the same resentment from some MD students I've talked to/seein on the internet-- that I'm vying for your spots, yet I didnt do well enough in Organic Chem, or Intro Biology to go US MD in the first place. so much negativity for your potential, future colleagues...

AlexMorph · May 27, 2011

shaggy alfresco said:
It makes no sense to have more residencies than US students.

It kinda does when the current crop of US students will not fill the ranks of the required number of physicians. Do you mean in the future when there look to be more and more US students?

Regal Regan · May 27, 2011

shaggy alfresco said:
It makes no sense to have more residencies than US students.

I'm not the poster you're replying to, but you're right, it doesn't make sense to have more residencies than U.S. students. And yet, even with those residencies, some US MD students still don't match. Why do you think that is? Are the residencies sub-par? Are they malignant? Most likely, they're all in family medicine. So maybe the answer isn't to add more schools, but rather to expand residencies to other specialties.

patel2 · May 27, 2011

osteohopeful09 said:
why is there so much FMG hate on this board? You guys mad that some kids did worse than you in undergrad, but still have a chance to prove themselves (and many do)? I get some flack for going DO, I feel the same resentment from some MD students I've talked to/seein on the internet-- that I'm vying for your spots, yet I didnt do well enough in Organic Chem, or Intro Biology to go US MD in the first place. so much negativity for your potential, future colleagues...

No hate. But why would I, or any other US student, care if FMGs are going to get further hosed by the match in the future? It's just not relevant to my interests.

In fact in some ways, the expansion of med schools will help some future pre-meds from America get into the newer schools rather than having to go abroad

TheRunner · May 27, 2011

Anyone know exactly what percentage of allopathic students didn't match this past year and how this has compared with years past?

shaggy alfresco · May 27, 2011

Regal Regan said:
I'm not the poster you're replying to, but you're right, it doesn't make sense to have more residencies than U.S. students. And yet, even with those residencies, some US MD students still don't match. Why do you think that is? Are the residencies sub-par? Are they malignant? Most likely, they're all in family medicine. So maybe the answer isn't to add more schools, but rather to expand residencies to other specialties.

No, that would not be a good idea. The residency numbers are determined by the government (they pay for it). Why should they fund residencies in other specialties when the biggest need is for primary care? The government isn't obligated to give you a neurosurgery residency with a 191 Step 1 just because you were accepted to medical school.

If you don't like the fact that because of your scores or other factors, you may have to end up in one of the lesser competitive specialties (FM, primary care IM, Peds, Path, Psych, etc), then you have to re-think your decision to pursue medicine. There is still enough variety there to fit many people's interests and abilities. I can't think of any other professional school where you're pretty much guaranteed a job - it's not in the taxpayers (e.g medicare) interest to fund you a Integrated Plastics Residency in Manhattan.

I would agree with you with regards to needing more residencies when the current number of American trained students exceed the number of residencies - hopefully the LCME would step in and limit the # of school spots before that happens.

motomed · May 27, 2011

shaggy alfresco said:
No, that would not be a good idea. The residency numbers are determined by the government (they pay for it). Why should they fund residencies in other specialties when the biggest need is for primary care? The government isn't obligated to give you a neurosurgery residency with a 191 Step 1 just because you were accepted to medical school.

If you don't like the fact that because of your scores or other factors, you may have to end up in one of the lesser competitive specialties (FM, primary care IM, Peds, Path, Psych, etc), then you have to re-think your decision to pursue medicine. There is still enough variety there to fit many people's interests and abilities. I can't think of any other professional school where you're pretty much guaranteed a job - it's not in the taxpayers (e.g medicare) interest to fund you a Integrated Plastics Residency in Manhattan.

I would agree with you with regards to needing more residencies when the current number of American trained students exceed the number of residencies - hopefully the LCME would step in and limit the # of school spots before that happens.

seriously, are people actually arguing that we need to limit the number of med students to the point that FMGs have to fill the void just so everyone who does get into a US med school can still specialize in the suburbs?

and for those who keep touting the number of people who didn't match, get real. I know of one person who didn't match last year. he did average work at a top 20 school, has his heart set on ortho, only ranked baller programs, didn't match, and is going to do research and try again. he chose this path knowing he might not match. what percentage of that 5% didn't do well enough to match into a reasonable primary care position if they had so chosen to do so? if you don't want that type of position, and you can't outcompete a few more people so you don't have to do one, I don't have much sympathy for you if you still feel the need to pursue medicine.

DocEspana · May 27, 2011

Regal Regan said:
With all due respect, that's a short-sighted argument. Many US MD graduates didn't match this year, so anyone looking into getting 250 K in debt at a US MD school should be concerned. It's really not realistic to think that just because there will be more competition for residencies, it'll only affect non-US MD students.

TheRunner said:
Anyone know exactly what percentage of allopathic students didn't match this past year and how this has compared with years past?

5.8% this year. Thats before the scramble. Which is the lowest its been in 5 years.

so. yea. not matching as an MD is an overstated non-concern

Gabby · May 27, 2011

shaggy alfresco said:
No, that would not be a good idea. The residency numbers are determined by the government (they pay for it). Why should they fund residencies in other specialties when the biggest need is for primary care? The government isn't obligated to give you a neurosurgery residency with a 191 Step 1 just because you were accepted to medical school.

The thing is, though, it isn't the 191s being denied for neurosurg. It's the 250s. The 191s aren't even applying to neurosurg.

If you don't like the fact that because of your scores or other factors, you may have to end up in one of the lesser competitive specialties (FM, primary care IM, Peds, Path, Psych, etc), then you have to re-think your decision to pursue medicine. There is still enough variety there to fit many people's interests and abilities.

Except those specialties are saturated too, except for FM. Weren't there an absurdly low number of psych and IM residencies left over for the scramble this year? With more and more schools being added, you're going to be squeezing people out of everything but FM and the FM residencies left over are mostly malignant programs or programs that have some kind of deficit.

I can't think of any other professional school where you're pretty much guaranteed a job - it's not in the taxpayers (e.g medicare) interest to fund you a Integrated Plastics Residency in Manhattan.

See, this is where you lose all credibility. You take a legitimate point by Regal Regan and turn it into something absurd, as if anyone would have suggested more Plastics residencies in order to make up for new med schools/med graduates. She can correct me if I'm wrong, but I would bet that she was talking more along the lines of psych, IM, OBGYN, PM&R, etc. People who can't match derm shouldn't be relegated to family med and nothing more.

Gabby · May 27, 2011

motomed said:
seriously, are people actually arguing that we need to limit the number of med students to the point that FMGs have to fill the void just so everyone who does get into a US med school can still specialize in the suburbs?

and for those who keep touting the number of people who didn't match, get real. I know of one person who didn't match last year. he did average work at a top 20 school, has his heart set on ortho, only ranked baller programs, didn't match, and is going to do research and try again. he chose this path knowing he might not match. what percentage of that 5% didn't do well enough to match into a reasonable primary care position if they had so chosen to do so? if you don't want that type of position, and you can't outcompete a few more people so you don't have to do one, I don't have much sympathy for you if you still feel the need to pursue medicine.

The more of your posts I read, the more I'm convinced you're an idiot.

Gabby · May 27, 2011

DocEspana said:
5.8% this year. Thats before the scramble. Which is the lowest its been in 5 years.

so. yea. not matching as an MD is an overstated non-concern

A "non-concern"? LOL, okay. Let me know how you feel when you're going through the match, unless you're shooting for FM or low-tier IM.

shaggy alfresco · May 27, 2011

Gabby said:
The thing is, though, it isn't the 191s being denied for neurosurg. It's the 250s. The 191s aren't even applying to neurosurg.

Meh, 42 students with scores of 231-240 applied to neurosurgery and 37 of them matched. 230s is doing very well on the boards, but it's not 'superstar' (still within 1 SD) - so it's not like it's unreachable except for the top student in your class.

Gabby said:
Except those specialties are saturated too, except for FM. Weren't there an absurdly low number of psych and IM residencies left over for the scramble this year? With more and more schools being added, you're going to be squeezing people out of everything but FM and the FM residencies left over are mostly malignant programs or programs that have some kind of deficit.

Yea, there were much fewer number of IM residencies left but what % of those were filled by FMGs? Quite a few. Ditto Psych - I think 40% of psych residencies were filled by FMGs - they are not all malignant. So I disagree there. The US students will simply push out the FMGs - they're still going to be able to match Psych, IM, FM, Path, etc (or whatever specialties that are not competitive five years form now - it ebbs and flows). For example, 21 people with scores of 191-200 applied Neurology and all 21 matched. Obviously not doing well means your choices ARE going to be restricted but you will still have choices, and IMO enough of them.

Doctors themselves are against creating more residencies in many specialties, like many medical school students are against creating more medical schools - it's about competition. You don't want other specialties to become like Path - where the job market sucks because there are too many residencies. It's actually nice to have that cap, which creates a demand.

motomed · May 27, 2011

Gabby said:
The more of your posts I read, the more I'm convinced you're an idiot.

excellent point.

so your position is that we should keep the number of med students low in the face of a physician shortage for the sole purpose of alllowing med students to do what they want to do with as little resistance as possible?

DocEspana · May 27, 2011

Gabby said:
A "non-concern"? LOL, okay. Let me know how you feel when you're going through the match, unless you're shooting for FM or low-tier IM.

Thanks for the confirmation bias and no true scotsman argument. Yes because clearly me not reaching my 4th year means that I have no idea how to read the stats of the case.

The simple fact that it was said that the number of MD students, referred to loosely as "many", not matching is a call for concern. I then pointed out that 5.8% currently do not match, and for that matter, that percentage is the lowest its been in years. This is before the scramble too, so likely much less than 5.8% dont have a residency by the end. Laughing at the facts that flies in the face of the point you *want* to believe is true doesn't change that it is true. The situation, as it currently is, is not a cause for concern for MD students. It could change, but the argument was that currently its a cause for concern which... the stats just dont back up.

cautiousvampire · May 27, 2011

Hey guys. I am looking for some insight into this from people that have more knowledge and insight than I. All these new schools just seems like bad news to me. I think a few med schools would help, but I don't see how this many could could open without disrupting medicine as we know it. I understand that the number of practicing doctors is based on residency spots, but if 60 new school are opened up how could you not increase the spots. If we didn't wouldn't many new US MDs (esepcially those who want to specialize, but also those that don't) be sitting without a residency after 4 years. I know we use many FMGs, but there can't possible be enough to balance the influx of school. Plus, we have to assume that schools will continue to open at a comparable rate(similarly to law and pharm, which still have schools opening) I know it seems impossible, like it could never happen, but I have closely followed the developments of the law and pharmacy industry and this is how the downfall started. A few people in the respective fields say "wait a minute, we might be creating an oversupply". Others jump in and give all their reasons why an oversupply is impossible. And then, before you know it, the salary, prestige, and job security is completely gone. I'm sure it will never get this bad for med, but it could get close.

Again, my knowledge is limited and my reasoning is based on this limited knowledge and my experience in other fields. Please explain to me why its wrong. (I truly hope it is)

DocEspana · May 27, 2011

cautiousvampire said:
Hey guys. I am looking for some insight into this from people that have more knowledge and insight than I. All these new schools just seems like bad news to me. I think a few med schools would help, but I don't see how this many could could open without disrupting medicine as we know it. I understand that the number of practicing doctors is based on residency spots, but if 60 new school are opened up how could you not increase the spots. If we didn't wouldn't many new US MDs (esepcially those who want to specialize, but also those that don't) be sitting without a residency after 4 years. I know we use many FMGs, but there can't possible be enough to balance the influx of school. Plus, we have to assume that schools will continue to open at a comparable rate(similarly to law and pharm, which still have schools opening) I know it seems impossible, like it could never happen, but I have closely followed the developments of the law and pharmacy industry and this is how the downfall started. A few people in the respective fields say "wait a minute, we might be creating an oversupply". Others jump in and give all their reasons why an oversupply is impossible. And then, before you know it, the salary, prestige, and job security is completely gone. I'm sure it will never get this bad for med, but it could get close.

Again, my knowledge is limited and my reasoning is based on this limited knowledge and my experience in other fields. Please explain to me why its wrong. (I truly hope it is)

Admittedly there wont be 60 schools (yea i know it was an exaggeration for the sake of the argument), more like 25. but still. The stuff you bolded: it is exactly what needs to be said. Its what everyone thinks. That a few schools would be much more good than bad, but a a huge number will cause some changes that we cant really predict.

Gabby · May 27, 2011

shaggy alfresco said:
Yea, there were much fewer number of IM residencies left but what % of those were filled by FMGs? Quite a few. Ditto Psych - I think 40% of psych residencies were filled by FMGs - they are not all malignant. So I disagree there. The US students will simply push out the FMGs

Says who? I wish you guys would tell me what you're basing this on, because FMGs pushed out some US students in this past match who didn't match psych. It isn't like residencies across the country say "let's make sure all our students match first, then we'll entertain the joke applications from the FMGs." Board scores are going up for FMGs too. Like it or not, when there's competition, US grads won't be immune to getting shut out.

Doctors themselves are against creating more residencies in many specialties, like many medical school students are against creating more medical schools - it's about competition. You don't want other specialties to become like Path - where the job market sucks because there are too many residencies. It's actually nice to have that cap, which creates a demand.

The point is, there needs to be enough residencies to match the number of students, and not just in FM. There's an IM shortage too. Why not expand IM residencies?

Gabby · May 27, 2011

DocEspana said:
Thanks for the confirmation bias and no true scotsman argument. Yes because clearly me not reaching my 4th year means that I have no idea how to read the stats of the case.

You have no basis to call it a "non concern." That's what I was objecting to. Try to follow along.

The simple fact that it was said that the number of MD students, referred to loosely as "many", not matching is a call for concern.

What's your definition of "many"? You don't think 1000 students qualifies as "many"?

I then pointed out that 5.8% currently do not match, and for that matter, that percentage is the lowest its been in years.

Really? Because according to those who went through it, the scramble was pretty damn brutal this year.

This is before the scramble too, so likely much less than 5.8% dont have a residency by the end. Laughing at the facts that flies in the face of the point you *want* to believe is true doesn't change that it is true. The situation, as it currently is, is not a cause for concern for MD students. It could change, but the argument was that currently its a cause for concern which... the stats just dont back up.

Your problem is that you refuse to look beyond numbers. "Well, it's only 6% who don't match. Who cares?" Read the residency forum and the match threads sometime and you'll see why it IS a concern and should be. Otherwise, make your point to someone else. I have no interest in looking only at numbers without looking at the situation as a whole.

DocEspana · May 27, 2011

How does someone categorically state that "this year was rough". Almost no one experiences the match twice. How do you compare anecdotes to anecdotes when everyone is working with an entirely blinded system where you do not know what the other half of the equation ranked?

There is only one way, you use the stats. You look at everyone who said it was rough. You nod your head. You tell them you're glad they made it through. and then you think to yourself "they dont know how good they have it" because it has been easier for them then the last few years have been. Every single year people say the exact same things. You can go on here and go back every single year and hear the identical comments. I lurk on those threads, its how I get the anecdotes to know my reliance on stats isn't misplaced.

Also, a ~95% match rate is fantastic when there is also a scramble to catch you. Its distressing to the >900 people, but they still make up <6% of the graduating class. So I say its a non-concern because its not even like 94.2% get residency, thats just the match number. I'm sure many of the 900 scramble. And that 900 is the lowest number out there in at least 5 years for MDs. The only shame here is that its not necessarily the bottom 6% of the candidates, and some well qualified people do end up there occasionally. There are some people who rank foolishly, arrogantly, or just unluckily and dont get anything at all. But they fall into one of the 3 categories and my casual stalking of the residency forums makes me thing its more 1 and 2 than 3 (Though 3 definitely happens). If you can't be content with a 95% job placement rate PLUS an additional opportunity to raise it even higher after the match, then you are out of touch with the realities of every other job market in the US, including the job markets DO students, FMGs and USIMGs face.

shaggy alfresco · May 28, 2011

Gabby said:
Says who? I wish you guys would tell me what you're basing this on, because FMGs pushed out some US students in this past match who didn't match psych. It isn't like residencies across the country say "let's make sure all our students match first, then we'll entertain the joke applications from the FMGs." Board scores are going up for FMGs too. Like it or not, when there's competition, US grads won't be immune to getting shut out.

The point is, there needs to be enough residencies to match the number of students, and not just in FM. There's an IM shortage too. Why not expand IM residencies?

Wasn't the match rate for Psych something like 97%? Who exactly is saying us grads are being pushed out?

AlexMorph · May 28, 2011

One important thing that was said that shouldn't be lost in the conversation is that PDs will not always take US students over FMGs. They will do it if the applicants are about the same but not always. If you have more US students, you will have more of them scoring across all ranges of Step 1, including the bottom ranges. These students will be the ones who might get beat out by an FMG with a higher step score. Once again, not all of them but certainly more than now if you increase the numbers by a lot, meaning not just 5-10 schools but 25-30. And then, that student is left with a ton of debt and no way to pay it off reasonably. I think if there is an equal commitment to trying to match as many US students as possible before considering the FMGs who take up a ton of residencies in FM, IM, Pscyh, Peds, then this might not be such a big issue.

EagerToBeMD · May 28, 2011

DocEspana said:
There is only one way, you use the stats. You look at everyone who said it was rough. You nod your head. You tell them you're glad they made it through. and then you think to yourself "they dont know how good they have it" because it has been easier for them then the last few years have been. Every single year people say the exact same things. You can go on here and go back every single year and hear the identical comments. I lurk on those threads, its how I get the anecdotes to know my reliance on stats isn't misplaced.

Also, a ~95% match rate is fantastic when there is also a scramble to catch you. Its distressing to the >900 people, but they still make up <6% of the graduating class. So I say its a non-concern

The only thing worse than a patronizing second-year lecturing the rest of us on how not matching is a "non concern" is the sad pre-med who's so obviously out of his depth.

These charts do not fully depict the competitive nature of the Scramble. Many graduates of international medical
schools (IMGs) do not submit rank order lists of programs; rather, they register for the Match to obtain the List of Unfilled Programs released during Match Week. The NRMP calculates that in 2010 nearly 13,000 applicants competed for only 1,060 first-year positions. The numbers are even more striking when one considers that more than 600 of the first-year positions were in preliminary programs, which many applicants view as undesirable because they do not lead to specialty training.

https://www.aamc.org/download/139358/data/nrmp_soap.pdf

EagerToBeMD · May 28, 2011

shaggy alfresco said:
Wasn't the match rate for Psych something like 97%? Who exactly is saying us grads are being pushed out?

91%, not counting the number of applicants who already graduated from a U.S. allo school.

shaggy alfresco · May 28, 2011

EagerToBeMD said:
91%, not counting the number of applicants who already graduated from a U.S. allo school.

Thanks for the updated figure - can you link me to the report on that? I can't find that information on the NRMP site.

DocEspana · May 28, 2011

640/698 = 91.7% of seniors who ranked any psych programs who got it. The 97% was the total programs filled once the match was over for all applicants.

shaggy alfresco · May 28, 2011

Which PDF are you looking at for this data? (I completely believe you, but I'd be interested in looking at other data just for my interest).

DocEspana · May 28, 2011

My bad. Forgot to link it.

If you ever need an NRMP stat: This Link

motomed · May 28, 2011

cautiousvampire said:
I know we use many FMGs, but there can't possible be enough to balance the influx of school. Plus, we have to assume that schools will continue to open at a comparable rate(similarly to law and pharm, which still have schools opening) I know it seems impossible, like it could never happen, but I have closely followed the developments of the law and pharmacy industry and this is how the downfall started. A few people in the respective fields say "wait a minute, we might be creating an oversupply". Others jump in and give all their reasons why an oversupply is impossible. And then, before you know it, the salary, prestige, and job security is completely gone. I'm sure it will never get this bad for med, but it could get close.

Again, my knowledge is limited and my reasoning is based on this limited knowledge and my experience in other fields. Please explain to me why its wrong. (I truly hope it is)

actually we use so many FMG's that we are a long ways off from having enough US grads to fill residencies. I recognize that FMG's will continue to compete for spots as the number of US grads increases, but I would think that programs would feel more pressure to take US grads and more hoops will be placed in front of FMG's as the number of US grads increases.

med school will never get to the point where pharmacy school and law school are. it is far more difficult to create a med school and they are being regulated much more closely than the other two fields. and either way I wouldn't argue that an oversupply is impossible, just that it isn't that big of a deal as long as it doesn't go crazy, which it won't.

as far as the prestige, salary, and job security, I wouldn't worry too much. pretty much every other job you could have already has it far worse than physicians do in these areas. If these things diminish slightly for physicians, it will still be a pretty fine existence. and even if you could convince everyone that this is terrible for med students and physicians, that still wouldn't mean it's bad for medicine. I suspect that the quality of work and overall productivity in pharmacies and law firms has gone up since the supply has increased. this isn't a bad thing.

no need to fear a little competition. go to a good school and do well and you'll be fine. to the extent that you aren't able to go to a decent school and/or do well, you'll have fewer choices when it comes to residency. plenty of people have to make compromises when it comes to their careers, and if it's good for medicine on the whole, which I believe it is, I don't think med students and physicians should be immune to this.

whatbout2morrow · May 28, 2011

Socrates25 said:
59. MD - Univ of Houston (Houston TX) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medical_schools_in_the_United_States#cite_note-58)

Wikipedia lists it as "under discussion" but it's been "under discussion" for a long time now. Haven't heard the current status, but last I heard, it was doubtful whether the state would fund another medical school in houston (considering there is already UT-Houston and Baylor, and UTMB is not too far away), and UH is a public university.

womp · May 28, 2011

Almost half of these schools are DOs. They're expanding like rabbits. Worse, most of these newer schools don't even have nearby affiliated hospitals and send their students everywhere across the country in M3 and M4 years. They're almost as bad as the Caribbean schools.

This will eventually lead to even more blatant tiering like that of law schools for the most competitive fields.

Regal Regan · May 28, 2011

shaggy alfresco said:
Thanks for the updated figure - can you link me to the report on that? I can't find that information on the NRMP site.

Not that poster, but I found this on the Psych forum. The 97% number you quoted was from the 2009 match. The 2011 match, the number was 91-92%

http://www.nrmp.org/data/2011Adv Data Tbl.pdf

Regal Regan · May 28, 2011

motomed said:
plenty of people have to make compromises when it comes to their careers, and if it's good for medicine on the whole, which I believe it is, I don't think med students and physicians should be immune to this.

I'm just curious, have you ever held a job? I don't want to be mean. It just seems like your posts are written by someone still in high school.

People who make compromises in their career are making compromises within their profession -- a PR person will take a marketing job for a little while until a PR position opens up. The Senior Supervisor of an ad agency may take a Junior Supervisor position in another and hope to be promoted. Those are the kinds of compromises people make. When was the last time you heard of someone who went to school to be a teacher end up as nurse and call that a "compromise"?

Medicine isn't just one umbrella field. Specialties are extremely different. It's one thing to tell someone who couldn't get IM to focus on FM, but you can't tell someone going into surgery to focus on psych. They're two entirely different fields with nothing in common. It's like forcing someone who wants to be a dentist to be a lawyer instead and then calling it a compromise.

Regal Regan · May 28, 2011

womp said:
Almost half of these schools are DOs. They're expanding like rabbits. Worse, most of these newer schools don't even have nearby affiliated hospitals and send their students everywhere across the country in M3 and M4 years. They're almost as bad as the Caribbean schools.

This will eventually lead to even more blatant tiering like that of law schools for the most competitive fields.

Actually, the majority of the schools are MD schools.

motomed · May 28, 2011

Regal Regan said:
I'm just curious, have you ever held a job? I don't want to be mean. It just seems like your posts are written by someone still in high school.

People who make compromises in their career are making compromises within their profession -- a PR person will take a marketing job for a little while until a PR position opens up. The Senior Supervisor of an ad agency may take a Junior Supervisor position in another and hope to be promoted. Those are the kinds of compromises people make. When was the last time you heard of someone who went to school to be a teacher end up as nurse and call that a "compromise"?

Medicine isn't just one umbrella field. Specialties are extremely different. It's one thing to tell someone who couldn't get IM to focus on FM, but you can't tell someone going into surgery to focus on psych. They're two entirely different fields with nothing in common. It's like forcing someone who wants to be a dentist to be a lawyer instead and then calling it a compromise.

finished undergrad in 2004, been working full time for 7 years... honestly I think the mentality of premeds and med students that has them thinking they should get to choose the field they want regardless of demand shows a lack of real world exposure. there's a ton of people wanting to do the things we don't really need more of and not nearly enough people wanting to do the things where there is a need. they've tried softer sticks and carrotts to get people into these fields for a while and it just isn't working. at some point the realities of the demands within medicine has to start having an actual impact on the decisions being made by the people going into medicine. I'm not forcing anyone to make any compromises, I'm just not feeling sorry for them when they don't get their dream job after they ignored the writing on the wall.

expanding the pool of medical students doesn't really change much at all besides making every specialty more competitive. everyone keeps telling me how this is bad for med students, nobody has been able to tell me how this is bad for medicine.

cbrons · May 28, 2011

cautiousvampire said:
I think a few med schools would help, but I don't see how this many could could open without disrupting medicine as we know it.

DocEspana · May 28, 2011

womp said:
Almost half of these schools are DOs. They're expanding like rabbits. Worse, most of these newer schools don't even have nearby affiliated hospitals and send their students everywhere across the country in M3 and M4 years. They're almost as bad as the Caribbean schools.

This will eventually lead to even more blatant tiering like that of law schools for the most competitive fields.

how is 6 almost half of 32?

Dbate · May 28, 2011

The opening of new medical schools is a good idea, especially schools like Texas Tech-El Paso, which are geared toward producing physicians to serve as PCPs in undeserved areas.

People's concern over this issue seems either misguided or entirely selfish. From the perspective of the rest of the country, there is a dearth of physicians and, even in the clinic where I work, patients sometimes have to wait a month or more for an appointment. You should not put your own myopic interests over the needs of your country.

Given the extreme need for more doctors, people should be rejoicing over the opening of new medical schools, rather than decrying their opening.

Updated: New allopath/osteopath med school list

Full Member

Full Member

Membership Revoked

Full Member

Full Member

Bullish

Senior Member

New Member

New Member

Full Member

4G MD

Membership Revoked

Full Member

Full Member

Full Member

Membership Revoked

Membership Revoked

Full Member

Full Member

Full Member

Bullish

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Full Member

Full Member

Bullish

Full Member

Bullish

Senior Member

Senior Member

Bullish

Full Member

Full Member

Medical Student

Medical Student

Full Member

Bullish

Full Member

Bullish

Full Member

Full Member

Full Member

Membership Revoked

Membership Revoked

Membership Revoked

Full Member

Full Member

Bullish

Full Member

Similar threads