The Deceptive Income of Physicians

Started by projectlogic
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Nothing shocking or new..... most of us probably knew this prior to entering medical school - just like the old article about how long it takes a doctor to out earn a Fed Ex delivery man

That said, it sucks
 
This has to be a concern for a lot of the non-traditional medical students who go to medical school shortly after completing another professional program. Sometimes I wonder if those folks ever make back the money they have put into education.
 
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I do wonder how many med students really do a cost-benefit analysis for themselves in the same nature as the article. It's really something that everyone should do once they get their loan information. Outlook does look better when you can float your own tuition partly, instead of relying 100% on loans (ouch).

I'm more concerned about med students that go to some of the more expensive M.D./D.O. schools. Some of the OOS tuition I've seen are absolutely insane, especially if they don't get any loan repayment assistance. The number of other professional students coming into med school is at least smaller in number.
 
the fedex article was littered with assumptions and calculations generous to the medical side, this one is no different. isn't this the same guy? he should have gone to law school. the way this was written, perhaps he would have enjoyed that more.
 
Are all residents/doctors such cry babies? Although I suppose most professions have somewhat of a martyr complex when it comes to debt/hours/reimbursements. Some of those comments in that thread make me laugh. Working 150 hours a week and barely being able to make it by as a doctor? Maybe if you have a gambling problem or are sleeping with a different prostitute every other day.
 
fzwarrior said:
This has to be a concern for a lot of the non-traditional medical students who go to medical school shortly after completing another professional program. Sometimes I wonder if those folks ever make back the money they have put into education.
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I probably won't (depending on specialty). It doesn't bother me.

My guess is that most physician's pay will stabilize around $150,000-$200,000 in today's dollars within 10-15 years. Which is fine for me, but it may not meet other people's expectations.
 
He states in the article that med students spend around 80 hours per week in training during all 4 years of med school. The only time I came close to that was on surgery rotation. and I spent far less than 40 hours per week in college. He is also contrasting becoming a physician with working straight from high school. Most people who attend med school would attend college and probably grad school as well regardless of what field they went into.
 
A lot of the assumptions are off (7% loans for undergrad... I believe its at 3.4% as I type this, with subsidized at 0). Hours worked seems to be off as well.

The big problem, as is often the case when large amounts of capital is lent, relates to the APR. If you try to pay off the loans in 10 years, the math comes out ok. If you take 30 years, then things get hairy. If you live like a typical young 20 something through med school, you're fine. If you're buying new cars and bottle service every weekend, things get hairy.
 
I have a friend at the firehouse who worries constantly about money. The dude has a $180,000 house that is paid off, no car payments, no credit cards, and still worries DAILY about money. My point: It would really suck to think through everything in life in terms of cost benefit analysis.
 
One of the problems with the analysis linked by the OP is that it ignores deferred compensation such as employer provided: 1) defined benefit pension plans; 2) profit sharing plans from for profit medical groups; and 3) employer provided disability insurance. For tax purposes and BLS wage gathering purposes, none of these items constitute "wages".

Furthermore physicians are often shareholders in for profit groups, they receive rent or a share of the rent on medical practice buildings and in some instances they are shareholders in medical insurance companies. These items are also not "wages".

It should also be noted that physicians in virtually any specialty can make a very good living if they are willing to locate in small cities or rural areas.
 
ijn said:
Are all residents/doctors such cry babies? Although I suppose most professions have somewhat of a martyr complex when it comes to debt/hours/reimbursements. Some of those comments in that thread make me laugh. Working 150 hours a week and barely being able to make it by as a doctor? Maybe if you have a gambling problem or are sleeping with a different prostitute every other day.
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Stop ruining my dreams.
 
dannyboy1 said:
He states in the article that med students spend around 80 hours per week in training during all 4 years of med school. The only time I came close to that was on surgery rotation. and I spent far less than 40 hours per week in college. He is also contrasting becoming a physician with working straight from high school. Most people who attend med school would attend college and probably grad school as well regardless of what field they went into.
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Yea, he kind of did a worst case scenario for everything. I'm only MS1, but I spend perhaps 30 hrs/week until finals, when I spend closer to 50 for the last week. That'll certainly go up for 3-4, but unless it's 100+, the average just wont work out.

Furthermore, he's not counting that the economy is trash right now, and most people are ending up in less than ideal jobs (or worse yet, no jobs).

Also, and this is subjective as hell, I feel like a lot of medical school is rather pleasant compared to working-- and using the author's logic, just pretend you're being paid $30 an hour or whatnot to do it. I've held a few jobs in the past, and while they also have their fun aspects, the real world is a whole lot crummier than academia.
 
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This is sad...but as long as you like it, u're golden...like smbd told me once if you want to make LOTS of money, noo healthcare...go to business haha
 
Business is also great for being unemployed or making 50k for the rest of your life for the majority f people.
 
this paper is interesting. who pays around 100k for undergrad? I dont have time for it, but id be curious to see some of his sources.
 
This article is interesting. I find one thing missing is that physicians can die from heart attacks during that period 20 years, leaving their debts to their spouses, children, and grand children children.
 
gravitywave said:
the fedex article was littered with assumptions and calculations generous to the medical side, this one is no different. isn't this the same guy? he should have gone to law school. the way this was written, perhaps he would have enjoyed that more.
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I agree. He basically compares worst-case scenario for a doctor vs a best case scenario for other professions.
 
5minutes said:
This article is interesting. I find one thing missing is that physicians can die from heart attacks during that period 20 years, leaving their debts to their spouses, children, and grand children children.
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If you're referring to educational debt, I'm pretty sure that is forgiven after death.
 
fzwarrior said:
This has to be a concern for a lot of the non-traditional medical students who go to medical school shortly after completing another professional program. Sometimes I wonder if those folks ever make back the money they have put into education.
Click to expand...

Concern? No. Most high net worth professionals who make career changes know they will never likely catch up. But those changes are made for reasons other then money. If the money were meaningful to them, they would stay put.
 
ijn said:
Working 150 hours a week and barely being able to make it by as a doctor? Maybe if you have a gambling problem or are sleeping with a different prostitute every other day.
Click to expand...

looks like i'm in for a rough ride
 
ijn said:
Are all residents/doctors such cry babies? Although I suppose most professions have somewhat of a martyr complex when it comes to debt/hours/reimbursements. Some of those comments in that thread make me laugh. Working 150 hours a week and barely being able to make it by as a doctor? Maybe if you have a gambling problem or are sleeping with a different prostitute every other day.
Click to expand...
yeah, there were some pretty gratuitous exaggerations there. I'd love to meet that surgery resident husband who studies for the ABSITE until 1:30am every night.
 
hematosis said:
this paper is interesting. who pays around 100k for undergrad? I dont have time for it, but id be curious to see some of his sources.
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My undergrad was over $20k per year and that was a lot of years ago. It's more now. While I'm sure the average is lower than this, when you factor in all the public schools, it's not not inconceivable that there are people who borrow that much in undergrad. Then if you borrow another $150k to $200k for med school you come out into your career with over $300k in debt.
 
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He is also contrasting becoming a physician with working straight from high school. Most people who attend med school would attend college and probably grad school as well regardless of what field they went into.
g.php
 
Law2Doc said:
My undergrad was over $20k per year and that was a lot of years ago. It's more now. While I'm sure the average is lower than this, when you factor in all the public schools, it's not not inconceivable that there are people who borrow that much in undergrad. Then if you borrow another $150k to $200k for med school you come out into your career with over $300k in debt.
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i snorted at the 100k/undergrad figure as well, and it is a bit silly when you consider that something like 2% or less of bachelors graduate with that amount of debt. he sort of makes up for it when he gets to the final figure of $300k on med school graduation, ie that's a little closer to making a purposeful comparison. I'm sure I have classmates who will be in that boat. but there's no way that's the average figure for a PGY-1. He had to push the Excel parameters awfully hard to come within 20% of he says the teachers are making.
 
If physicians make enough or not really depends on your opportunity cost. If you can take 8 years and $200,000 and turn that into more than $200,000 per year, than medical school is a poor financial choice. If you can't, then medical school is a good financial choice.

I did not read all the numbers, but did Dr. Brown factor in that not all medical students make it to become a doctor? Some are stuck with their loans with nothing to show for it.
 
Yeah, I have about the nat'l average for undergrad debt, but had to take out more to be able to afford to apply to med school, and by the time I'm done I will have over 300K because I am married and already have kids- that's not factored into living expenses at med schools. However- my original plan was to be a band teacher and I must say that no matter what my finances will look way better once I am practicing as a physician- especially if we live like we are still students for a while and just pay off all the debt quickly. Either way, almost everyone feels like they are underpaid, most people are underpaid, and no one believes doctors are underpaid even though they are. I think sympathy is a big part of what people are looking for. I'm not there yet, but I imagine that if every patient said thank you and none were jerks then there would be far fewer comments on that thread.
 
Law2Doc said:
Concern? No. Most high net worth professionals who make career changes know they will never likely catch up. But those changes are made for reasons other then money. If the money were meaningful to them, they would stay put.
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let me give you some perspective on non-trad applicants

i'm 26. i've been running two medical clinics. i would make about 80k/year income for both clinics combined and even though i'm being paid for around 60 hours a week i'm actually only working around 30 hours. also, most of those hours are spent surfing the internet and watching streams.

1. i could have gone for my MBA(top 20 of course) and done the whole corporate ladder thing
2. i could work on increasing patient size on the clinics and add additional locations
3. i could go back to med school

option 1 has the most and least potential income
option 2 has the most average income, great work hours, and the least job satisfaction
option 3 has the highest job satisfaction and job security

i chose option 3 because while lifestyle is important to me it isn't the only thing i want in life. i want the combination of job satisfaction and job security with the option to work less to accomodate any lifestyle needs.
 
I think you have to also include a price for the job stability. I can't think of a job with better job security than being a physician. One of the previous posters was right. Can you turn 200k into a 200k/ year salary without medical school because if you can then medical school isn't worth it.

I think the issue now is the interst rates on student loans is around 7% which is disgusting considering banks can get loans at 0%. This kind of forces you to work really hard initially as an attending to pay off the student loans and ultimately you end up with less money for retirement. So I tell people to work really hard for the first few years to maximize retirement and pay off as much of the student loan as possible as you only have so much tax free growth room to plan for retirement. Is this hard, yes it is . There are many new shiny mercedes in the showroom that look very tempting.

I guess I lucked out with student loans fixed at below 2% for 30 years when I went and have a total debt of slightly under 200k for college and med school right now. I even had the interest being paid when I was in residency, but I think that option has been removed, by I belive Mr. Bush. Not that Mr. Obama is any better.
 
We're slaves. Just face it. They've jacked up the costs of education to the point where not practicing afterward would land you in a veritable debtor's prison. And now they want to control income too, fcking people from both ends. Medical education is incredibly wasteful and inefficient. How much does one actually remember from MS1, let alone 4 years of undergrad? A lot of medical issues are very simple and can be solved without much education but it's illegal to do so unless you have $300k debt and more formal education than a rocket scientist. Why so many barriers to providing and receiving care in this country?
 
I think we all know that there are much more efficient ways to make money than becoming a physician. Regardless of the latest calculation, if you're in it for the money you've made a mistake.😉
 
joeDO2 said:
I think we all know that there are much more efficient ways to make money than becoming a physician. Regardless of the latest calculation, if you're in it for the money you've made a mistake.😉
Click to expand...

More efficient? I doubt it (though we may be defining "efficient" differently). The best money with the most job security is medicine. MOST people in other industries make dick - enough to pay rent, the bills, support a car payment, but that's about it really. $50,000 a year is not much money, not really, and it definitely doesn't go as far as it used to with the dollar devaluation handed to us by thoughtless fiscal and monetary policy by the government for decades. Other ways of making money are definitely much more of a gamble.
 
Marcus Brody said:
We're slaves. Just face it. They've jacked up the costs of education to the point where not practicing afterward would land you in a veritable debtor's prison. And now they want to control income too, fcking people from both ends. Medical education is incredibly wasteful and inefficient. How much does one actually remember from MS1, let alone 4 years of undergrad? A lot of medical issues are very simple and can be solved without much education but it's illegal to do so unless you have $300k debt and more formal education than a rocket scientist. Why so many barriers to providing and receiving care in this country?
Click to expand...

We've got no one to blame but ourselves for that unfortunately.
 
joeDO2 said:
I think we all know that there are much more efficient ways to make money than becoming a physician. Regardless of the latest calculation, if you're in it for the money you've made a mistake.😉
Click to expand...

No there really aren't.
 
jdh71 said:
more efficient? I doubt it (though we may be defining "efficient" differently). The best money with the most job security is medicine. Most people in other industries make dick - enough to pay rent, the bills, support a car payment, but that's about it really. $50,000 a year is not much money, not really, and it definitely doesn't go as far as it used to with the dollar devaluation handed to us by thoughtless fiscal and monetary policy by the government for decades. Other ways of making money are definitely much more of a gamble.
Click to expand...
jdh71 said:
we've got no one to blame but ourselves for that unfortunately.
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+1
 
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cincincyreds said:
... Can you turn 200k into a 200k/ year salary without medical school because if you can then medical school isn't worth it...
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a lot of the career changing nontrads out there were already in the low six digit salary range. When you factor in time value of money and consider that you won't earn a physician income for about a decade after you change careers, assuming a postbac and a moderate length residency and fellowship, there is no way you will ever have a medical salary where your lifetime income will get you back to where you would have been by now if you hadn't made a career change. Which is why you know most of these career changer nontrads aren't in it for the money. As for whether it is "worth it", most people realize there is much more to a rewarding career than income.
 
cincincyreds said:
I think you have to also include a price for the job stability. I can't think of a job with better job security than being a physician....
Click to expand...

I think premeds/med students get a bit carried away with the job security/ job stability mantra. Yes the demand for primary care physicians is currently better than for a lot of careers right now, and has been for eons. But at the same time the market for board certified fellows in certain competitive specialties (pathology, radiology) is exceedingly tight right now, due to the older clinicians not retiring. If the tight economy persists, this will soon spread to other fields. Probably rapidly if some form of universal healthcare gets implemented, and midlevels get administratively bestowed a greater role like I suspect they will.

There are folks on the specialty boards seriously contemplating second fellowships to at least milk out another $50k salary for a year, so I wouldn't get too carried away talking about how plentiful and secure the job market in medicine is. It's better than some things, worse than others. In the end you have to do what you want, for reasons other than money or job security, because on this path both can be illusory.
 
not in today's economy...good luck finding a job with a solid income with a degree from a liberal arts school. A lot of people are in medicine for job security. Its a job.
 
liberaldoc238 said:
not in today's economy...good luck finding a job with a solid income with a degree from a liberal arts school. A lot of people are in medicine for job security. Its a job.
Click to expand...

Then a lot of people are being foolish. The economy will change in a few years. But you can be mired in a career you hate for a lot longer. Things like salary and job security must must must take a back seat to the single most important question about your career -- do you actually like it? The poor slob working 9-5 and living for the weekend at some blue collar gig can say "it's a job". He didn't have choices in life. The overachievers smart enough to get into med school had a multitude of choices. If they didn't pick something they enjoy they are going to have a miserable life, whining about every call shift and missed weekend. You can bide your time in a low houred profession. In one where you spend most of your awake life immersed in it, if you don't like it, it's a life sentence.
 
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