1 in 35 people bump their troponin after Moderna Covid vaccination

[thegenius]

to be completely honest I never saw a young healthy person have a really bad time with covid, but I know there were a few that did. I believe I admitted one person in their 20s.

and even with your whataboutism, it's still bad to take a shot that has a known side effect of heart damage. would you take a statin if it had the side effect of an NSTEMI?

especially for people who gain nothing from it (NNT for young patients?) can you imagine taking a MRNA vaccine NOW? I haven't seen a case of ARDS from COVID in probably about 20 months. current COVID is now equivalent to rhinovirus.

There is a distinct difference between an NSTEMI and "acute myocardial injury". Totally different pathologies.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[thegenius]

This is like the battle between CHADS-Vasc and HASBLED.

Are you suggesting that natural immunity is safer than the vaccine?

Because that’s the two options. There’s no third. It’s like a patient with a high CHADS-Vasc and HASBLED. The option isn’t “stroke or no stroke” it’s “hemorrhagic or ischemic”.


I’ve also seen completely debilitating rhabdo from statins and super acute liver failure from amiodarone.

No drug or vaccine is 100% safe, I agree with that.
However it’s almost always the case that they are safer than the alternative.


Also an elevated troponin isn’t a NSTEMI. I can link that cardiologists again if need be (4th Universal Definition of MI).

I believe it (your statement above about natural immunity vs vaccine immunity).
Where is the age-grouped chart? It has to exist. Age groups are like per decade. Outcome would either be hospitalization and/or death. Can throw in long covid while we are at it.

 

[thegenius]

There’s a 3rd option between natural immunity and vaccine?

Perhaps nothing and avoid COVID, but that is impossible unless you live in a treehouse for 20 years and wait for routinely less virulent strains to circulate.

Even then, as many have written including myself, it's just a matter of time before we all get COVID.

 

[Tenk]

Who the hell cares about Covid anymore?

 

[Tipsy McStagger]

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/JAHA.120.015912

Exercise bumps troponin, surgery bumps troponin, sepsis bumps troponin, pneumonia, afib, etc etc etc. Covid also bumps troponin, by the way. Patients who are dying of it in the unit have troponins much higher than the vaccine may cause, and it's usually terminal - not transient.

Edit: I guess I just don't see the point to this article. Are they trying to insinuate something? Maybe all vaccines cause troponin elevations, should it be studied? If positive should we stop giving flu shots, mmr, polio, tetanus? What's the point?

 

[ScepticSkeksis]

As was mentioned the big point was NNT. Even assuming the vaccine was effective, it still does have some risk of harm. For those under 50 with no medical problems there was literally no medical reason to be giving this vaccine as the individual risk was exceedingly small and the NNT very high. As I explained to parents, their children were at greater statistical risk of dying in a backyard pool than dying of COVID.

 

[ScepticSkeksis]

Who the hell cares about Covid anymore?

It's important to understand what happened. There will be another pandemic in the future, and it would be sad if we made the same mistakes about lockdowns, forced masking (especially of children), and forced vaccinations. With our retrospectoscope we can now see which measures didn't work and which were in net harmful (like lockdowns).

 

[Birdstrike]

If we require food companies to label how much sugar and calories are in a food, I have right to know what "health products" are going to elevate my troponin.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

If we require food companies to label how much sugar and calories are in a food, I have right to know what "health products" are going to elevate my troponin.

You are really not going to like the current state of regulations for vitamins and supplements...

 

[Birdstrike]

You are really not going to like the current state of regulations for vitamins and supplements...

I'm okay with it. That's because no company would be stupid enough waste money putting active ingredients in any of that stuff, when they can get away with filling those tablets with nothing.

 

[BulgeDaTwine]

I run 3x wk, got the shot and for the next 6 months was SOB w running. Close but not back to normal now but I’m sure it had long lasting effects.

My uncle who never had any medical issues got the shot, over the next 3 months had endocarditis, bacterial meningitis, discitis, cholecystis.

Proof will eventually come out but from a personal standpoint side effects are real

Damn if only there was a way to see if subjective, anecdotal observations were, you know, real?

 

[Arcan57]

If we require food companies to label how much sugar and calories are in a food, I have right to know what "health products" are going to elevate my troponin.

Just to be clear, it's hs-troponin that's being talked about, which is a different kettle of fish than trop-I. Forgive me if I'm off on your separation date from EM, but have you had to deal with a lot of hs-trops?

 

[Birdstrike]

Just to be clear, it's hs-troponin that's being talked about, which is a different kettle of fish than trop-I. Forgive me if I'm off on your separation date from EM, but have you had to deal with a lot of hs-trops?

The only bumped trop’s I’ve had to deal with in the past 10 years are the three times my trop’s (might have) bumped when taking an mRNA vaccine.

 

[Arcan57]

The only bumped trop’s I’ve had to deal with in the past 10 years are the three times my trop’s (might have) bumped when taking an mRNA vaccine.

So the hs-trop has a lot more in common with d-dimers than with trop-I. When they’re negative the chance of myocardial injury is super low, but people walk around with mild/moderately elevated hs-trops and don’t have ACS or any other detectable pathology.

 

[Birdstrike]

people walk around with mild/moderately elevated hs-trops

The study had a protocol to exclude people who had chronic baseline troponin elevations. It looked pretty rigorous to me.

Read through the supplemental materials (link) and tell me where it fails.

 

[Tenk]

It's important to understand what happened. There will be another pandemic in the future, and it would be sad if we made the same mistakes about lockdowns, forced masking (especially of children), and forced vaccinations. With our retrospectoscope we can now see which measures didn't work and which were in net harmful (like lockdowns).

If another pandemic happens in our lifetimes when people still remember this one, the world is going to end, so again, who cares?

 

[Birdstrike]

If another pandemic happens in our lifetimes when people still remember this one, the world is going to end, so again, who cares?

I think if there's another declared pandemic anytime soon, people will react very differently having gone through this one. I'm sure some people would still panic, but I suspect there would still be a lot of pandemic fatigue causing people to swing to the other extreme, and perhaps ignore it.

 

[ScepticSkeksis]

If another pandemic happens in our lifetimes when people still remember this one, the world is going to end, so again, who cares?

It doesn't have to. That's what we should have learned.

 

[Tenk]

I think if there's another declared pandemic anytime soon, people will react very differently having gone through this one. I'm sure some people would still panic, but I suspect there would still be a lot of pandemic fatigue causing people to swing to the other extreme, and perhaps ignore it.

Nope. Quite the opposite. They will literally go out in hordes because they remember the prior shortages and cause the biggest supply chain failure in the history of mankind. Then riots and fighting. When there’s no food and supplies to be found, that’s when the trouble begins and it has actually nothing to do with the virus, just mass hysteria.

In terms of healthcare. Our current system is already on the verge of collapse. If a pandemic hits again in the next decade, it’s probably game over. I, along with probably thousands of other fed up doctors, would just get up, walk away, and poof, done.

 

[Tenk]

It doesn't have to. That's what we should have learned.

But it will because humans.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

I run 3x wk, got the shot and for the next 6 months was SOB w running. Close but not back to normal now but I’m sure it had long lasting effects.

My uncle who never had any medical issues got the shot, over the next 3 months had endocarditis, bacterial meningitis, discitis, cholecystis.

Proof will eventually come out but from a personal standpoint side effects are real

Interesting. About 3 weeks after my first Moderna booster, I developed a raging abscess on my back that required hospitalization, IV antibiotics, debridement etc. I’m healthy and I’ve never been admitted to the hospital before, so this was indeed odd.

 

[ScepticSkeksis]

Interesting. About 3 weeks after my first Moderna booster, I developed a raging abscess on my back that required hospitalization, IV antibiotics, debridement etc. I’m healthy and I’ve never been admitted to the hospital before, so this was indeed odd.

No one will ever know what caused your *Unusual Health Problem* but experts know for certain it's not the vaccine.

 

[thegenius]

I think if there's another declared pandemic anytime soon, people will react very differently having gone through this one. I'm sure some people would still panic, but I suspect there would still be a lot of pandemic fatigue causing people to swing to the other extreme, and perhaps ignore it.

If the next pathogen is similar to COVID in terms of virulence and R0, I suspect there will be A LOT MORE morbidity and mortality. Because people are stupid

 

[ScepticSkeksis]

If the next pathogen is similar to COVID in terms of virulence and R0, I suspect there will be A LOT MORE morbidity and mortality. Because people are stupid

In what way? Nearly everyone caught COVID multiple times, regardless of precautions/behaviors.

 

[Arcan57]

In what way? Nearly everyone caught COVID multiple times, regardless of precautions/behaviors.

Except when you peel back the onion, most people had clear, easily identifiable, potentially modifiable source of infection. “I isolate except for spending an hour chatting up that nice delivery driver” or “I don’t go out except for that huge family reunion” or “I always mask except when I’m near people I don’t think are sick” or “I always have a mask on and wear it around my chin all day”.

In my experience among healthcare people, the people that got COVID multiple times either never really tried to not get it or made a decision after having a mild first course to stop caring.

 

[ScepticSkeksis]

Except when you peel back the onion, most people had clear, easily identifiable, potentially modifiable source of infection. “I isolate except for spending an hour chatting up that nice delivery driver” or “I don’t go out except for that huge family reunion” or “I always mask except when I’m near people I don’t think are sick” or “I always have a mask on and wear it around my chin all day”.

In my experience among healthcare people, the people that got COVID multiple times either never really tried to not get it or made a decision after having a mild first course to stop caring.

The actual statistical evidence on enforced masking and lockdowns doesn't support your anecdotes.

 

[Kryptocoin]

Except when you peel back the onion, most people had clear, easily identifiable, potentially modifiable source of infection. “I isolate except for spending an hour chatting up that nice delivery driver” or “I don’t go out except for that huge family reunion” or “I always mask except when I’m near people I don’t think are sick” or “I always have a mask on and wear it around my chin all day”.

In my experience among healthcare people, the people that got COVID multiple times either never really tried to not get it or made a decision after having a mild first course to stop caring.

Right. Mask adherence and isolation during the pandemic was a complete joke.

 

[Kryptocoin]

The actual statistical evidence on enforced masking and lockdowns doesn't support your anecdotes.

Isn't that his point? People barely followed enforcement...so it wasn't effective.

 

[ScepticSkeksis]

Isn't that his point? People barely followed enforcement...so it wasn't effective.

I think that is exactly the point. Why force people to do stuff when they won't do it properly and therefore doesn't work?

But in high-public-trust Sweden this was not the issue.

 

[Arcan57]

I think that is exactly the point. Why force people to do stuff when they won't do it properly and therefore doesn't work?

Who’s talking about forcing? I’m just responding to your “everybody got COVID multiple times” comment.

 

[Kryptocoin]

I think that is exactly the point. Why force people to do stuff when they won't do it properly and therefore doesn't work?

But in high-public-trust Sweden this was not the issue.

Didn't Sweden have higher COVID deaths compared to other Nordic countries ?

 

[thegenius]

In what way? Nearly everyone caught COVID multiple times, regardless of precautions/behaviors.

Since I disagree with this statement itself, I’m not even going to argue with you. We don’t need this thread to turn into COVID 2.0 which will just mirror the prior COVID thread.

I’ve only had it once, 2.5 years after it came out, despite being in one of the highest risk professions for catching it.

 

[Mount Asclepius]

If the next pathogen is similar to COVID in terms of virulence and R0, I suspect there will be A LOT MORE morbidity and mortality. Because people are stupid

The herd has been culled. A lot of the morbidity and mortality from COVID-19 was in individuals that weren’t all that healthy at baseline. Forests burn more readily when there are lots of dead and dying trees. The next pandemic pathogen won’t happen for a while. Possibly a little sooner than you’d expect and sooner than the gap between 1918 and 2019 with climate change, yet still tough to predict and likely not for a while. People have always been stupid. There is not a global solution that is reliant on individual behavior. There will only be more morbidity and mortality if we continue to embody the western lifestyle that results in a large prevalence of obesity.

 

[Mount Asclepius]

I’ve only had it once, 2.5 years after it came out, despite being in one of the highest risk professions for catching it.

Only one that you know of. A large number of asymptomatic minor infections. Also lots of rapid antigen, false negative testing.

Viral disease is rampant. Now with broad use of PCR viral testing in the ED we are picking up way more cases than we ever would have before. E.g. 90s year old female with fall and generalized weakness without URI symptoms or clear signs of pneumonia in the mid summer - rhino/entero positive. Never would have gotten a viral panel in the past on someone like this. Now readily done and picking up lots of viral disease.

 

[ScepticSkeksis]

Didn't Sweden have higher COVID deaths compared to other Nordic countries ?

Study compares deaths in Sweden and Norway before and after COVID pandemic

A recent epidemiological study, currently available on the medRxiv preprint server, demonstrates that all-cause mortality was mostly unchanged during the coronavirus disease (COVID-19) pandemic compared to the previous four years in Norway and Sweden – two countries which took very different...

www.news-medical.net

All-Cause mortality didn't increase in Sweden compared to Norway. Authors speculated that there was "mortality displacement" during COVID, when a bunch of the old people died off slightly early, this led to lower mortality later on, and no difference in 2-year all-cause mortality between the countries.

 

[Arcan57]

Study compares deaths in Sweden and Norway before and after COVID pandemic

A recent epidemiological study, currently available on the medRxiv preprint server, demonstrates that all-cause mortality was mostly unchanged during the coronavirus disease (COVID-19) pandemic compared to the previous four years in Norway and Sweden – two countries which took very different...

www.news-medical.net

All-Cause mortality didn't increase in Sweden compared to Norway. Authors speculated that there was "mortality displacement" during COVID, when a bunch of the old people died off slightly early, this led to lower mortality later on, and no difference in 2-year all-cause mortality between the countries.

I've been staring at that graph and the conclusions in the article and it doesn't make much sense. As far as I can tell, the authors are actually saying the opposite of your summation. Instead of COVID killing people that were going to die in 2020 a little bit earlier, their argument is the mortality displacement was actually COVID killing off elderly Swedes that statistically should have died in 2018/2019. It's a weird way to frame the question they're claiming to answer. What everyone here is interested in is did Norway take it in the shorts from COVID after their lockdown ended (ie their measures just delayed the inevitable)? And this study can't answer that question because it stops in July 2020. Maybe the full article has a more compelling justification for the range of their data set, because it feels a little cherrypicked at first glance.

 

[Kryptocoin]

Study compares deaths in Sweden and Norway before and after COVID pandemic

A recent epidemiological study, currently available on the medRxiv preprint server, demonstrates that all-cause mortality was mostly unchanged during the coronavirus disease (COVID-19) pandemic compared to the previous four years in Norway and Sweden – two countries which took very different...

www.news-medical.net

All-Cause mortality didn't increase in Sweden compared to Norway. Authors speculated that there was "mortality displacement" during COVID, when a bunch of the old people died off slightly early, this led to lower mortality later on, and no difference in 2-year all-cause mortality between the countries.

Scathing evaluation of Sweden's COVID response reveals 'failures' to control the virus

A scathing review has been released evaluating the policies that guided Sweden’s response to the COVID-19 pandemic.

abcnews.go.com

The John Hopkins data is pretty compelling . It compared Sweden with four other Nordic countries. My favorite quote from the article :

"The authors -- from Sweden, Belgium, Norway and the U.S. -- said Sweden was able to achieve this by portraying advice from independent scientists as "extreme," keeping the public in the dark regarding facts about how COVID-19 spreads and not issuing any mandates.

This is despite the country's history of collaboration between authorities and the scientific community and the general public's high level of trust of those in power."

 

[thegenius]

I've been staring at that graph and the conclusions in the article and it doesn't make much sense. As far as I can tell, the authors are actually saying the opposite of your summation. Instead of COVID killing people that were going to die in 2020 a little bit earlier, their argument is the mortality displacement was actually COVID killing off elderly Swedes that statistically should have died in 2018/2019. It's a weird way to frame the question they're claiming to answer. What everyone here is interested in is did Norway take it in the shorts from COVID after their lockdown ended (ie their measures just delayed the inevitable)? And this study can't answer that question because it stops in July 2020. Maybe the full article has a more compelling justification for the range of their data set, because it feels a little cherrypicked at first glance.

I read it very quickly and interpreted it as "people who were going to die in a few years in the future, died a little early due to COVID." But I read it quickly and not carefully.

Still that's a pretty crappy thing to say or suggest from a public health perspective. "Dad...you are going to die in 2-3 years, but let's just have the virus take you now. We are culling the herd."

 

[Arcan57]

I read it very quickly and interpreted it as "people who were going to die in a few years in the future, died a little early due to COVID." But I read it quickly and not carefully.

Their data set ends at July 2020 so they can’t make any claims about future mortality. And while the article is set up to lead you to the conclusion you drew, when they talk about mortality displacement they’re saying it can refer to shifting mortality either BEFORE or after an event. They’re saying mortality in Sweden was artificially low in 2018-19 and that COVID merely raised all cause mortality back to its historic baseline. It’s an interesting if bizarre take. Essentially they’re saying that COVID acted like a Final Destination movie killing people who had cheated death the year before.

 

[aafisahar]

Everything bumps your trop.

Source: cardiologist

 

[throway134]

I’ve seen studies showing extreme endurance events like marathons can elevate troponin, but I haven’t seen anything about brief weightlifting sessions. Does it do that?

As above, those studies were using trop i, which is what we were using 10 years ago. While not perfect, a good way to think about hs trop is that it’s around 1/1000 of whatever the value you’re used to seeing with trop i.

I wouldn’t care if someone was lifting intensely and came in with a “regular trop” I of 0.03 with “oligosymptoms”

Hs-trop is a different ballgame. The protocol at one of the top cardiac hospitals in the country was to send +s (yes even in their 30s) home with +s that were low range and not trending up, because many of them lived in that range

I know you’re being funny, but show me where benign neurocardiogenic (“vasovagal”) syncope elevates troponin.

It absolutely does in non-cardiac syncope ~15% of the time, even with trop I. If you had low suspicion for a cardiac etiology acep had a position statement against getting them in syncope in the non-elderly for that reason

I'm okay with it. That's because no company would be stupid enough waste money putting active ingredients in any of that stuff, when they can get away with filling those tablets with nothing.

They do this all the time. Products that “work” for energy because they are laced with caffeine (and occasionally amphetamines) get pushed all the time because no one regulates them. Those also almost certainly bump hs trops.

Also, as above, the question isn’t will people get covid it’s when they will get it and how often. Natural covid probably causes hs trop elevations (that I would never check) in everyone with tachycardia (about 30% of young people). The flu also does this, and my only reaction to a colleague or pa being concerned about minimal hs trop bumps in tachycardic flu patients would be to roll my eyes when I thought about it while I printed the dc paperwork unless there was something else going on.

Not meaning to be offensive, but getting concerned about a hs trop bump tells me you’ve been out of the correct field a little too long to interpret this study. I’ll be there in a couple years too, which I am thrilled about, and it is partially thanks to your posts that I left young. I really appreciate you sharing your story on here.

 

[ScepticSkeksis]

Also, as above, the question isn’t will people get covid it’s when they will get it and how often. Natural covid probably causes hs trop elevations (that I would never check) in everyone with tachycardia (about 30% of young people). The flu also does this, and my only reaction to a colleague or pa being concerned about minimal hs trop bumps in tachycardic flu patients would be to roll my eyes when I thought about it while I printed the dc paperwork unless there was something else going on.

Not meaning to be offensive, but getting concerned about a hs trop bump tells me you’ve been out of the correct field a little too long to interpret this study. I’ll be there in a couple years too, which I am thrilled about, and it is partially thanks to your posts that I left young. I really appreciate you sharing your story on here.

The real answer is to just not get Troponins on every patient like the midlevels do. If you have flu symptoms, are young, with no chest pain, I'm not odering a troponin.

 

[throway134]

The real answer is to just not get Troponins on every patient like the midlevels do. If you have flu symptoms, are young, with no chest pain, I'm not odering a troponin.

That’s what I was implying, but I understand the confusion from what i wrote on my phone. I wouldn’t order it, I don’t care that someone else did, and I’m discharging them with no sleep lost.