15 month girl with respiratory distress

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Stitch

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I'd like to start posting some interesting peds cases for people to work through. Please start posting your own if you come accross them so we can learn and discuss management! (Or don't if this is boring).

In any case...

A 15 month old girl presents to your ER in respiratory distress. She was full term and went home after just two days in the nursery. She has no other medical history and no history of reactive airway disease or wheezing. Mom states that the child has had some tactile temperatures, fussiness and cough over the past few days. She thought it was basic URI stuff and wasn't worried until today when she noticed the child was 'breathing hard.'

What more do you want to know?

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I hope this is the right first step... :scared:

Is the girl cyanotic? Is there a pulse ox available to find out the oxygen saturation?

Is she awake? Does the patient look ok, uncomfortable, or very distressed? Does she have visible signs of increased work of breathing like retractions and nasal flaring?

Is the upper airway clear? Stridor? I guess at this point I'd also listen to the chest for breath sounds.

Vital signs?

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My thoughts are to first figure out how sick the patient is before deciding what to do next; it could theoretically be intubation or maybe the patient is well enough to sit down with the parent(s) and gather more history. In my very limited experience, the range of severity of "respiratory distress" types of complaints goes all the way from mild to very severe.
 
I hope this is the right first step... :scared:

Is the girl cyanotic? Is there a pulse ox available to find out the oxygen saturation?

Is she awake? Does the patient look ok, uncomfortable, or very distressed? Does she have visible signs of increased work of breathing like retractions and nasal flaring?

Is the upper airway clear? Stridor? I guess at this point I'd also listen to the chest for breath sounds.

Vital signs?

------------

My thoughts are to first figure out how sick the patient is before deciding what to do next; it could theoretically be intubation or maybe the patient is well enough to sit down with the parent(s) and gather more history. In my very limited experience, the range of severity of "respiratory distress" types of complaints goes all the way from mild to very severe.

Excellent thoughts, and med students and anyone else definitely welcome to the discussion. There's something to be said for 'doorway pediatrics' and it holds true right now. The kid is well enough to get a more thorough history if you want it. I can give a physical exam with vitals in a minute.
 
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I'd like to start posting some interesting peds cases for people to work through. Please start posting your own if you come accross them so we can learn and discuss management! (Or don't if this is boring).

In any case...

A 15 month old girl presents to your ER in respiratory distress. She was full term and went home after just two days in the nursery. She has no other medical history and no history of reactive airway disease or wheezing. Mom states that the child has had some tactile temperatures, fussiness and cough over the past few days. She thought it was basic URI stuff and wasn't worried until today when she noticed the child was 'breathing hard.'

What more do you want to know?

A few questions...
1. Any possible foreign body aspiration?
2. ID/Infectious--is she immunized/immigrant/recent travel or any other reason to suspect zebra-type infections?
3. Sick contacts?
4. Is she wheezing? Stridulent? Other localizing exam findings such as dimished BS, crackles, abd distention, or sitting forward/drooling...
5. Hypoxic?
6. Ill/septic appearing? Perfusion?

At first go, after ABCs (and checking sats and RR), I'd do a focused exam.

Are there si/sx of upper airway obstruction (croup, weird neck swelling/tonsilar abscess w/airway compromise, rare--epiglottititis (if unimm)

Or does this sound like lower airway? (ie wheeze/RAD, PNA, pleural effusion, pneumothorax..)

Or could she be tachypnic 2/2 to acidosis/sepsis?
 
Good questions. This is a real case I had in the ER not long ago by the way.

The child is up to date and sees her regular pediatrician appropriately. No recent travel outside the U.S. but she does have a school age older sibling who had URI symptoms earlier this week.

Foreign body aspiration should always be a concern in younger mobile children. Mom hasn't seen her pick anything up nor has she noted any choking recently, and in general has had decreased PO and very slightly decreased urine output over the past 24 hours (last wet diaper was a few hours ago).

On exam you see a somewhat fussy child who is consolable by mom. Non toxic appearing, but obviously in some distress.
Temp 39.1, Pulse 170, Respiratory 40, BP 85/38. 93-95% breathing room air.
HEENT: NCAT, PERRLA, EOMI, no oral lesions, TMs are clear and neck is supple
Chest: No stridor, but retractions are noted. Coarse breath sounds noted bilaterally with an occasional crackle, but nothing focal. No wheezes.
CV: 2+ pulses in all extremities, no mumurs, rubs or gallops.
Abd: soft, NT, ND, no HSM or mass.
Ext: brisk capillary refill
Neuro: Alert, but fussy

What next? Are you comfortable with just a pulse ox or do you want more? Do you want IV access? If you want tests or labs, you have to tell me why you want it and what you hope to get out of it. Earn your dinner! ;)
 
Thanks for bringing up a case, this is fun!
For starters, I would get a CBC (with differential, because you hinted that this might not be the most usual case - low lymphs and PCP?) and blood cultures (since bacterial pneumonia would be high on my list - doesn't usually have to be lobar in young children!), together with IV access for empirical antibiotics and possibly fluids sometime soon.
Once you're drawing blood, get a set of electrolytes (w/ bicarb), too, to r/o respiratory compensation of a metabolic acidosis, and as a baseline before giving IVF.
This sounds like a child that needs to be watched in the hospital at least overnight - could get better and be treated at home for the remainder of the illness (maybe it'll turn out to be a harmless viral LRI), or could get worse, need sepsis treatment/ respiratory support/ etc.
What time of the year is it when the child presents, by the way?
I would get a chest X-ray, too, because of the paucity of physical findings and still remarkable respiratory distress/ retractions and abnormal sats (--> pneumonic infiltrates? Effusions? Atelectasis distal to an aspirated foreign body/ mediastinal shift?).

To discuss IV fluids: a HR of 170 doesn't sound that remarkable at a 39 degree temp., and cap. refill is great so far and BP so-so (for a fussy child). Anyway, I would want to watch VS and UOP closely in case the patient gets septic and needs the extra volume quickly. For now, encourage oral clears if she is able to drink OK while breathing hard.
 
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Thanks for bringing up a case, this is fun!
For starters, I would get a CBC (with differential, because you hinted that this might not be the most usual case - low lymphs and PCP?) and blood cultures (since bacterial pneumonia would be high on my list - doesn't usually have to be lobar in young children!), together with IV access for empirical antibiotics and possibly fluids sometime soon.
Once you're drawing blood, get a set of electrolytes (w/ bicarb), too, to r/o respiratory compensation of a metabolic acidosis, and as a baseline before giving IVF.
This sounds like a child that needs to be watched in the hospital at least overnight - could get better and be treated at home for the remainder of the illness (maybe it'll turn out to be a harmless viral LRI), or could get worse, need sepsis treatment/ respiratory support/ etc.
What time of the year is it when the child presents, by the way?
I would get a chest X-ray, too, because of the paucity of physical findings and still remarkable respiratory distress/ retractions and abnormal sats (--> pneumonic infiltrates? Effusions? Atelectasis distal to an aspirated foreign body/ mediastinal shift?).

To discuss IV fluids: a HR of 170 doesn't sound that remarkable at a 39 degree temp., and cap. refill is great so far and BP so-so (for a fussy child). Anyway, I would want to watch VS and UOP closely in case the patient gets septic and needs the extra volume quickly. For now, encourage oral clears if she is able to drink OK while breathing hard.

I don't know if I'd jump to all of this right away. The "Interesting Case Sign notwithstanding, this doesn't YET, seem like an uncommon presentation. Our "first look" says that we have a little time for further investigation/monitoring. One (small) piece of history: any h/o prodromal rhinorrhea? Are we pretty close to a clinical diagnosis of bronchiolitis? For argument's sake let's say we are. We don't want to be dismissive because many of us have seen RSV sepsis and possibly death from this usually self recovering illness. So still thinking things through...HR of 170, T 39 in a 15mo. If we put stock in the 10-15bpm/1 degree C increase in HR with fever, 170 seems high even for a T of 39. You said "great" capillary refill. Is this "flash" capillary refill (a lot faster than yours or mine) and she's in evolving warm shock (compensated for now)? Having some inside knowledge of your ED, she likely got some antipyretics at triage; what's her CURRENT temp and if she's now cooler what has happened to her HR (or is she cooler and your bedside VS were HR170-->more concerning). Unless my repeat BP & HR are more normal (she has diastolic hypotension for age) I think I would have the IV in and give a fluid bolus. I'm not going to wait for labs to do this and, currently, I am unconvinced that I need any. You gave me an exam without hepatomegaly, gallop, or murmur so while CHF is on the DDx of these wettish lung sounds (in this setting, possibly from a viral myocarditis), it's low on the list and I'd give a real 20ml/kg bolus (and argue with the nurses that a "bolus" doesn't get run over an hour ;)). There is some kind of lung pathology and just because you didn't hear wheezes doesn't mean they're not there or won't be there on serial exams. I think a trial of beta agonist is worthwhile; if there's bronchospasm then it should help and if it is bronchioloitis it most likely won't, but occasionally does. Risk of high dose beta agonist includes diastolic hypotension, but one dose isn't too likely to do much harm in this setting, but gives me even more impetus to give the fluids. So in summary my initial game plan: no labs yet, recheck VS, give antipyretics if they weren't given and see what changes with a lower temp, get IV access and give a fluid bolus with clinical recheck after bolus, and trial of albuterol with clinical recheck. After collecting more data...move onto round two where we find out that we may be dealing with a zebra.
 
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BTW I posted an interesting case I had in the EM forums ("Intersting Cases...") in this format but the thread died. Maybe after we get through this case, I'll drag that one into this thread. Thanks for posting this one.
 
Sorry guys, I was on a nursery moonlight shift then had a wedding to go to. JRad, I'd love to hear about the other case if you want to move it over and thanks for all the responses!

My approach to this case was most similar to J-Rad's. That is to say, the child appears mostly bronchiolytic, common things being common. Good pick up on both the diastolic number and the disproportionate heart rate to fever. Heart rate is one of the most sensitive indicators of a sick patient, but remember it's completely non specific. 100% of alcoholics start off life drinking milk...

The child did receive tylenol in triage, bringing the temp down to 38.4. HR remained 160-170. Respiratory rate unchanged.

I placed a PIV and gave 20/kg of NS based on the high heart rate and history of poor PO with decreased UOP and lower diastolic BP. I ran it over 1/2 hour and not 5 minutes since her cap refill was good. At the same time I gave a trial of 2.5 mg nebulized albuterol. Afterward, no real change to her vitals except diastolic pressures improved slightly to 88/44. Respiratory distress also unchanged.

I'm generally not a fan of CBCs as they rarely change what I'm going to do when I think of infection (though I do see what you mean about looking for lymphopenia). A BMP is reasonable if you're thinking dehydration or acidosis, but overall, if you know you're giving fluid, give fluid. A BMP won't change that. We ended up getting one later for exactly the reason you mentinoed and I'll post it in a bit if you still want it.

I also did get a chest x ray. Fever, tachypnea, respiratory distress is enough for me to think pneumonia. X rays were pretty non specific: normal heart size, without focal infiltrate. General viral type pattern with a little perihylar schmutz.

Next step? You've been monitoring her about an hour and a half without a whole lot of change at this point (by the time everything is done) though her respiratory rate has gone up to 50 and she's breathing harder. O2 sats at 92% with occasional disps to 90-91. Are you thinking antibiotics (Freibi had mentioned a blood culture)
 
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I like this. Thank you guys for the explanations of what/why you're thinking what you are as well too. I'll try to play along, but please, feel free to tell me where I'm wrong - might as well get some constructive criticism.

Did you list what time of year? If it's winter...RSV and a rapid Influenza would be important additions to a normal respiratory viral panel if you're in season (depending on what your hospital normally runs when you place that order). I know that the rapid influenza results have higher sensitivity and specificity with younger kids - still not great tests, so you'd want reflex culture.

Certainly I think this is moving towards an admission - and I'm keeping the possibility of the PICU open in case she needs vent support. I think getting a cap gas (or preferably an ABG), could help for seeing if she's keeping up...I know in obstructive pathology (asthma) when you start getting a respiratory acidosis picture combined with the high resp rate, that's a sign that we're getting into some dangerous territory because she's not ventilating well enough. But, since I'd say is probably my biggest deficiency at the moment, is that knowing how transferable some of the knowledge I have in one situation is to another somewhat similar one...I'm not entirely confident I'm thinking about this correctly.
 
I like this. Thank you guys for the explanations of what/why you're thinking what you are as well too. I'll try to play along, but please, feel free to tell me where I'm wrong - might as well get some constructive criticism.

Did you list what time of year? If it's winter...RSV and a rapid Influenza would be important additions to a normal respiratory viral panel if you're in season (depending on what your hospital normally runs when you place that order). I know that the rapid influenza results have higher sensitivity and specificity with younger kids - still not great tests, so you'd want reflex culture.

Certainly I think this is moving towards an admission - and I'm keeping the possibility of the PICU open in case she needs vent support. I think getting a cap gas (or preferably an ABG), could help for seeing if she's keeping up...I know in obstructive pathology (asthma) when you start getting a respiratory acidosis picture combined with the high resp rate, that's a sign that we're getting into some dangerous territory because she's not ventilating well enough. But, since I'd say is probably my biggest deficiency at the moment, is that knowing how transferable some of the knowledge I have in one situation is to another somewhat similar one...I'm not entirely confident I'm thinking about this correctly.

These aren't bad thoughts. Rapid RSV and flu A/B are actually mostly used for infection control purposes for inpatients. When evaluating and treating what you think to be bronchiolitis in the ED, the diagnosis can appropriately be made clinically without lab tests or radiology (chest x-rays are notorious for having nonspecific findings in the setting of bronchiolitis. A classic finding is roving atelectasis which is tough to differentiate from an infiltrate). However, if you're going to admit the child, knowing if they are RSV or flu positive is important for patient isolation and droplet precautions decisions. Some institutions will put almost everybody admitted with URTI /LRTI symptoms in isolation until and droplet and contact precautions until a viral panel comes back negative (I do not believe that this is the Red Book recommendation) There are some occasions when you might use a positive RSV to lower your suspicion of some other process. One example would be a febrile infant between one and three months of age who has the classic signs of bronchiolitis. Serious bacterial infection (SBI) is much less common in the setting of positive RSV, though urinary tract infection is common enough to still be necessary to rule out even in the setting of RSV positivity.
In regards to getting a blood gas, there are those that would argue that this would actually yield you little useful information that you couldn't have gathered clinically. The most ominous sign of respiratory failure in the setting of respiratory distress is change in mental status. Just like every lab test a blood gas can falsely worry you or reassure you. If you think the child needs to be tubed it probably is not going to be based on a blood gas, however, after she has been intubated you may use blood gases to monitor her respiratory status. I do agree that she has some ominous features to her presentation now.

Sorry guys, I was on a nursery moonlight shift then had a wedding to go to. JRad, I'd love to hear about the other case if you want to move it over and thanks for all the responses!

My approach to this case was most similar to J-Rad's. That is to say, the child appears mostly bronchiolytic, common things being common. Good pick up on both the diastolic number and the disproportionate heart rate to fever. Heart rate is one of the most sensitive indicators of a sick patient, but remember it's completely non specific. 100% of alcoholics start off life drinking milk...

The child did receive tylenol in triage, bringing the temp down to 38.4. HR remained 160-170. Respiratory rate unchanged.

I placed a PIV and gave 20/kg of NS based on the high heart rate and history of poor PO with decreased UOP and lower diastolic BP. I ran it over 1/2 hour and not 5 minutes since her cap refill was good. At the same time I gave a trial of 2.5 mg nebulized albuterol. Afterward, no real change to her vitals except diastolic pressures improved slightly to 88/44. Respiratory distress also unchanged.

I'm generally not a fan of CBCs as they rarely change what I'm going to do when I think of infection (though I do see what you mean about looking for lymphopenia). A BMP is reasonable if you're thinking dehydration or acidosis, but overall, if you know you're giving fluid, give fluid. A BMP won't change that. We ended up getting one later for exactly the reason you mentinoed and I'll post it in a bit if you still want it.

I also did get a chest x ray. Fever, tachypnea, respiratory distress is enough for me to think pneumonia. X rays were pretty non specific: normal heart size, without focal infiltrate. General viral type pattern with a little perihylar schmutz.

Next step? You've been monitoring her about an hour and a half without a whole lot of change at this point (by the time everything is done) though her respiratory rate has gone up to 50 and she's breathing harder. O2 sats at 92% with occasional disps to 90-91. Are you thinking antibiotics (Freibi had mentioned a blood culture)

Now I'm a little more worried. We now have fluid refractory hypotension (at least refractory to one fluid bolus), tachycardia out of proportion to fever, worsening tachypnea, and now intermittent desaturations, all despite intervention. Unless I missed it, the one thing I didn't see having tried was supplemental oxygen. Her age, medical history, and presentation do not put her in any risk category for giving supplemental O2 (that category being unrecognized left to right shunt cardiac defect with subsequent CHF). I would put her on oxygen to see if it makes her feel any better or change her clinical status. Since she is still hypotensive I would continue to give her fluid boluses. I realize this is getting very academic and neither Stitch or I would necessarily put these particular words to it in the ED setting I would like to point out something:

Criteria for SIRS (presence of at least two criteria representing acute change from baseline and in the absence of other known causes for these changes)
1. Temperature greater than 38°C rectal or under 36°C rectal
2. Heart rate or the 90th percentile for age
3. Respiratory rate and the 90th percentile for age or height ventilation to PA CO2 less than 32 torr
4. White blood cell count greater than 12,000 cells/millimeter cubed

Sepsis: SIRS secondary to systemic infection, either documented by microbiology cultures or in the presence of other clinical evidence of infection.

Criteria For Severe Sepsis
sepsis post any one of the following:
-Glascow Cobleskill under 15 in the absence of CNS disease
-arterial lactate greater than 1.6 or venous lactate greater than 2.2
-urine output less than 1ml/kg/hr for two consecutive hours with a urinary catheter in place

Criteria for Septic Shock
Sepsis with hypotension (two distinct measurements of blood pressure under the 3rd percentile for age) after administration of 20ml/kg crystalloid or colloid, plus any one of the following:
-requirement for inotropic support
-any of the diagnostic criteria for severe sepsis listed above.

I point this out to show that this child and her presentation is nothing to mess around with. She is very close to meeting definitional criteria for septic shock. I definitely think she meets admission criteria with a diagnosis of respiratory distress and fluid refractory hypotension. Every facility is a little different with what their inpatient capabilities are (do they have a step down unit?), but after the decision to admit her I would at least put the PICU on alert that I have this child with this clinical presentation. I hate monitors, but she is most definitely in need of cardiorespiratory monitoring. I also hate treating indiscriminately what I don't know I'm treating, but as for the issue of antibiotics, at this point I probably would lean toward giving them. I would go ahead and start getting my infectious labs including a blood culture, urine culture (especially if she is a Caucasian female) and the RSV/flu. I'd put her on MIVF with D5NS w/ K+ if she's peed (I generally don't like 1/2NS for anyone who isn't a small infant). I'm running a late so that's all I got for now.
 
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JRAd I think we practice in similar manners, and I couldn't agree more about the blood gas.

BigRedBeta, thanks for bringing season/time of year up. It's December.

A word on blood gases. You're not wrong to think of PICU or airway stuff, but I always warn against letting blood gases determine how to proceed. They have their usefulness if you're worried about shunting, oxygenation, those kinds of things, and they are indispensable on a ventilated patient. Taking away the respiratory drive of someone in distress with sedating drugs and/or paralytics however will generally make them sicker. You'll lose control of the ability to adequately remove CO2. Some of the sickest kids I've seen transferred over were kids who got a tube because of a concerning blood gas. In other words don't look for things you don't want to know the answer to. :)

In this case what would you do with a normal gas? Does that mean the child is decompensating? How about if they are retaining CO2? In this case, the child is still a bit fussy, and if they can fuss they're doing okay in my book. What I worry about is the ability to oxygenate along with their mental status and ability to protect the airway. You can tell all of those things clinically if they're hooked up to a pulse ox.
 
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So yes, this patient is tending towards admission. Here's a question for you: how long do you keep them in the ER? When is the ER 'work up' complete? My general goal is to say 'sick' or 'not sick' and then let the floor team do the investigative hunt, but sometimes you need to do more in the ER. Should I have (we can come back to this)?

In any case, I placed the child on 2 LPM nasal oxygen, which improved the saturations to 98%, but did not help her respiratory distress. A second NS bolus was given (again 20/kg) for the blood pressure and concern for oncoming sepsis. Blood culture was obtained and clinically I treated with cefotaxime IV. I don't like treating blind either, but for a sick kid it's better to get the antibiotics on board. An LP was not done as the mental status was appropriate and I had a fairly low suspicion for meningitis. I probably should have obtained urine, but didn't since she was over one year and had no history of UTIs (she's African American).

The admitting team was called to admit her. RSV and flu (rapid tests) are negative. As the patient was leaving the ED on the way to the floor, she starts grunting, but maintains O2 sats via pulse ox. A BMP obtained by the floor team (finally Freibi!) is mostly normal except for a bicarb of 16.

The intern who examines the child after coming to the floor thinks she hears a gallop.

Now what?
 
JRAd I think we practice in similar manners, and I couldn't agree more about the blood gas.
You'd almost think we learned Peds EM in the same place...HMMM;)

So yes, this patient is tending towards admission. Here's a question for you: how long do you keep them in the ER? When is the ER 'work up' complete? My general goal is to say 'sick' or 'not sick' and then let the floor team do the investigative hunt, but sometimes you need to do more in the ER. Should I have (we can come back to this)?

In any case, I placed the child on 2 LPM nasal oxygen, which improved the saturations to 98%, but did not help her respiratory distress. A second NS bolus was given (again 20/kg) for the blood pressure and concern for oncoming sepsis. Blood culture was obtained and clinically I treated with cefotaxime IV. I don't like treating blind either, but for a sick kid it's better to get the antibiotics on board. An LP was not done as the mental status was appropriate and I had a fairly low suspicion for meningitis. I probably should have obtained urine, but didn't since she was over one year and had no history of UTIs (she's African American).

The admitting team was called to admit her. RSV and flu (rapid tests) are negative. As the patient was leaving the ED on the way to the floor, she starts grunting, but maintains O2 sats via pulse ox. A BMP obtained by the floor team (finally Freibi!) is mostly normal except for a bicarb of 16.

The intern who examines the child after coming to the floor thinks she hears a gallop.

Now what?
As for what and how long in the ED: it depends on too many factors. Sometimes it can be a factor of who's the busiest; slow ED night and a floor that's getting slammed, the ED may do a little more than what is truly required of them (stabilization and triage with necessary workup and treatment to do both). Sometimes they need to get bodies out to where they're going to go anyway. There often is no one right answer.
In a 15mo AAF, I think you're OK without having gotten urine. If she were white, probably would have been better to given the different UTI rates amongst whites and AAs.
I consider grunting the second most ominous sign in the setting of respiratory distress behind alterred MS. New gallop: If the intern heard it I'd go and confirm the finding (no offense to interns) and abdominal exam should be rechecked (listen to the lungs again as well. Do they sound wetter?). True gallop and now grunting...I don't think she's a floor player anymore and considering she's clearly progressing in a bad direction I don't think she's elligible for intermediate care. I'd fight it out with the PICU to get her a bed there.
 
I second moving the girl over to the PICU.
Now, we still don't know the cause of her illness.

While the low diastolic BP and tachycardia were present at the time she got to the ED, the gallop (assuming there truly is one) is a new finding. Something that happened (or more likely, that we did :oops: ) caused stress to the left heart.
Was it a) the oxygen, or b) the fluid boluses, or c) something else?

a) The point J-Rad mentioned earlier about heart defects with a left-to-right shunt would explain this: the size of the shunt e.g. in a VSD depends on the pressure gradient between the chambers and the size of the hole. At a given hole size, if you lower pulmonary vascular resistance by supplying more oxygen to the lungs and thereby dilating the pulmonary vascular bed, the RV will have a lower afterload, and even more blood will flow through the hole towards the right side. An increased shunt volume leads to pulmonary "flooding" and causes stress to the left side of the heart, since the LV has to move forward all the recirculating volume in addition to the systemic output via the aorta. A gallop may then be heard as a sign of LV failure.
So, could this girl have a yet unrecognized congenital heart defect with an L-R shunt? If it's a "post-cardiac" one (a PDA), this would also explain the low diastolic blood pressures. Of course, she would need a second diagnosis of the condition that caused the fever and initial amount of respiratory distress - the reason she got supplemental oxygen in the first place.
b) If you can't deal with two 20 ml/kg fluid boluses over half an hour each after not having had much PO and with a low UOP, there's likely some underlying cardiac pathology. Possibly one that also explains the fever, such as myocarditis or endocarditis (although you would have expected to hear a murmur in the latter).
c) Something else is stressing the heart (a lot), and the low diastolic blood pressure is a sign of low systemic vascular resistance like in the early phase of septic shock (thanks for posting the SIRS/sepsis/... criteria, J-Rad - good reminder). However, if all the extra fluid was getting away into the periphery, I don't see how that would explain a gallop to be heard.

So, I have a few more questions:
- Are you hearing any new murmur along with the gallop, too (e.g. that of a relative pulmonary stenosis from increased pulmonary blood flow)?
- Does the normal BMP include a normal anion gap? With the findings in this patient, an elevated AG from lactic acidosis wouldn't be surprising.
- Or was the "gallop" really something else? Since you hooked up the patient to a cardiorespiratory monitor (and I think that's a good thing to do in any patient you admit with significant cardiorespiratory pathology), you would have seen whether there was a normal ECG rhythm, or if maybe the "gallop" was really an arrhythmic heart beat. A split S2 (heart sounds like a Spanish "D-DR, D-DR, D-DR") may also be confused with a gallop (heart sounds like "DR-D, DR-D, DR-D"). While it's normal to have an S2 split variably with respiration, a fixed split S2 occurs in instances like the ones in a), where there is so much blood that has to go through the pulmonary valve that the valve closes later than the aortic valve does in every heart beat.
- How big is the liver by now (congestive heart failure with a gallop should be significant enough to cause hepatomegaly)?
- How hard is it at your hospital to get an echo? Did you do one?

By the way, my money is on b1) currently ;)
 
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You guys are good! To be fair, I should update vitals and exam findings. The anion gap on the BMP was 21.

By the time you arrive to double check the intern: Obvious distress and retractions with continued grunting, less fussy. Diaphoretic and sweating. 94% on 5 LPM face mask.
Pulse 195, Resp 28, BP 80/38
Lungs still coarse, slightly wet
The gallop is real, as much as you can tell at that rate, and no other murmurs or rubs are noted
Abdominal exam has the liver down by 4-5 cm
Perfusion now around 5 seconds

The PICU accepts her without question and cards comes in to do an echo (as requested by Freibi) which shows normal anatomy but greatly decreased ventricular function, and poor ejection fraction (sorry I forgot the number, but it's bad).

What meds would you like to add to all of this to halt her spiral?
 
I like the diagnosis of Myocarditis -> CHF, & pulmonary edema (this was similar to a mock code from early in intern year, where a kid hit the floor and ended up similar to this one).

I think with the low EF and poor diastolic function, you probably go to pressors now. I will let the older, more knowledgeable folks fight over Milrinone vs Dopamine vs other vasoactive agents.

The "iatrogenic" cause Freibi was referring to was the choice to continue to bolus in the face of worsening respiratory status, although at the time there was no evidence of CHF, and her tachycardia was not exacerbated (a good sign of a poor cardiac response to fluid). Using lasix to diurese is probably a next step, IV dosing given the poor PO and current pulmonary edema.

Other questions -> are there mental status changes? Are there signs of respiratory failure, leading you to need to intubate this child iminently?
 
You guys are good! To be fair, I should update vitals and exam findings. The anion gap on the BMP was 21.

By the time you arrive to double check the intern: Obvious distress and retractions with continued grunting, less fussy. Diaphoretic and sweating. 94% on 5 LPM face mask.
Pulse 195, Resp 28, BP 80/38
Lungs still coarse, slightly wet
The gallop is real, as much as you can tell at that rate, and no other murmurs or rubs are noted
Abdominal exam has the liver down by 4-5 cm
Perfusion now around 5 seconds

The PICU accepts her without question and cards comes in to do an echo (as requested by Freibi) which shows normal anatomy but greatly decreased ventricular function, and poor ejection fraction (sorry I forgot the number, but it's bad).

What meds would you like to add to all of this to halt her spiral?

I like the diagnosis of Myocarditis -> CHF, & pulmonary edema (this was similar to a mock code from early in intern year, where a kid hit the floor and ended up similar to this one).

I think with the low EF and poor diastolic function, you probably go to pressors now. I will let the older, more knowledgeable folks fight over Milrinone vs Dopamine vs other vasoactive agents.

The "iatrogenic" cause Freibi was referring to was the choice to continue to bolus in the face of worsening respiratory status, although at the time there was no evidence of CHF, and her tachycardia was not exacerbated (a good sign of a poor cardiac response to fluid). Using lasix to diurese is probably a next step, IV dosing given the poor PO and current pulmonary edema.

Other questions -> are there mental status changes? Are there signs of respiratory failure, leading you to need to intubate this child iminently?

I don't think there is any "iatrogenic" here. Given her age and presentation, I would have been willing to put money on her not having hemodynamically significant congenital heart disease with L-->R shunt so O2 was a safe and appropriate decision. The fluids were absolutely the right choice and standard of care in this clinical scenario. If we want to look through the retrospectoscope for small quibbles I would argue that she may have warranted the Carcillo full-court fluid press (up to and over 60ml/kg in <15 minutes if no signs of CHF [which she did not have initially]...). She may or may not have gone into failure earlier but I doubt it. I think she fell off the DO2/VO2 cliff (I'm trying to dig out a particular diagram in my mind that's in Marino and some other stuff) and it was going to happen regardless.
I also think there should be strong consideration to intubation, sedation and paralysis (she hasn't really stunk of the heterogeneous obstructive asthma process that makes intubation an avoid-at-all-reasonable-costs measure for asthmatics). Not for respiratory sx but rather to reduce the demand on her stressed myocardium. She's got wet lungs and a liver down so I think some diuretics are in order. I also might get a gas now even before intubation to check her ventilation. This because I'd like to use some bicarb or THAM, but the former requires adequate ventilation and the latter adequate renal fxn. The myocardium does not like an acidotic environment. I agree with the need for pressors. I'm not sure milrinone is the best choice as the decreased SVR may not be worth the inotropy. She seems to have progressed from warm shock to cold shock given her now-prolonged CR, so epi gtt would probably be a good choice. If she continues to have diastolic hypotension I might add phenylepherine gtt. This is where the critically ill child becomes so fascinating and full of diagnostic dellimas: she's likely intravascularly depleted but we need to get fluid off, so we easily can get in trouble with over-diuresis. At admission to the PICU she probably will get rainbow labs and since she is in septic shock we need to see what (other) end-organ damage there is, and her labs may have changed as rapidly as her clinical status. CBC (is she anemic and in need of transfusion?), CMP/Mg/phos (recheck electrolytes and renal function, her beans are at high risk now. LFTs-her liver may have taken a hit since it's all wet and living in acid. Albumin-every septic kid I ever saw had a low albumin and severe hypoalbuminemia [<2.2] isn't going to help when we try to balance intravscular volume and diuresis. Sick hearts don't like hypoMg+), Coags (she could be in DIC and is at least at high risk for coagulopathy, after all her liver may have been hit) Lactate (for fun). Her heart may have been dinged by sepsis and acidosis or by a viral myocarditis so I would get viral studies (and she still may have "just" had bronchiolitis and just happened to get septic and get myocarditis from the bug). Check CK, CKMB, and troponins (probably more for tracking as she hopefully convalesces). She's septic so continue bug juice. Lots of drugs and monitoring-she warrants a CVL and an art line for accurate BP monitoring. Cardiology has already been consulted, ID probably next on the list. Now it's treat as clinical course dictates. What happened?
 
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Iatrogenesis imperfecta? It's hard to say. She only received a total of 40mL/kg of NS bolus, and not over a short period of time. Given her clinical picture, she may have been deserving of even more. After all if you overdo it, that's why God gave us lasix and hemodialysis, right? I suspect that she would have crumped no matter what. My experience with these kinds of kids is that they compensate tremendously then they die, all of the sudden, with little time to react or figure out what's really going on. It's one of the reasons I love kids.

She was placed on dopamine, though my choice would have been milrinone. I don't like epi drips except as a last resort. My feeling is if you're on an epi drip, you're dead but don't know it yet (critical care guys want to chime in?). The decision as to whether to intubate was taken away from us (keep reading), but the intensivists were definitely considering it so as to better control her overall physiology.

As far as labs go, something that came up in conference was a BNP. Cardiology ended up checking and hers was 8000 or so. They say anything greater than 110 is concerning, so this result is not subtle. Unfortunately almost all of the BNP studies are extrapolated from adult data. Anyone have any experience with it? It seems like it could be a decent "I'm worried about the heart" test with decent sensitivity. Otherwise her BMP looked like this: 138/4.8, 100/15, 25/0.5, but that was several hours before she hit the PICU (I don't have the after unit data, sorry). CBC was normal with normal crit.

ID was in fact the next consult and tons of vial studies were sent off. All were negative, but the presumptive diagnosis was viral myocarditis. If you see a kid on the Boards who gets much sicker after fluid, think of myocarditis and think pressors.

After dopamine was started, the child coded and was intubated during the code. Her ventricular function continued to deteriorate and within an hour was placed on ECMO. She remained on the circuit for 3 days, was successfully decanulated, and extubated after another week. She had her 4 month follow up appointment yesterday and is otherwise doing very well. And that's the other reason I love taking care of kids: find me an adult who could survive that and I'll consider doing medicine... :p

She got lucky. I'd be curious as to any other input on the case!
 
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She got lucky. I'd be curious as to any other input on the case!

Excellent case and well-presented. Thank you. I've done cases in the neo forum but if there is interest I could do one here as well.

This scenerio actually is not uncommon in neonates. Viral cardiomyopathy is a common and serious problem and occasionally gets a baby on the transplant list. I have no experience with 15 month old infants, but in a baby, the use of milrinone and/or epi drips would be common and not a "fatal" indicator.

BNP is the new "in" test. It's a bit like some other diagnostic tests we use...If very high, it confirms the ECHO and everything else you have.:rolleyes: Some folks like to use it as an indicator of short-term changes in status, although, as you noted, the data do not exist to demonstrate that this is reliable in small children.
 
I used to do some research involving BNP, and I agree. BNP levels are useful mainly as an adjunct to clinical findings, echo etc., and you have to interpret them according to the clinical circumstances.
As almost always, there is a lot less data on the lab test in children than adults. For BNP and NT-proBNP (the pro-hormone), at least there is some information about reference values for different age groups (e.g. short-lived normal peak during the first day after birth).
In adults, it is well proven that BNP and NT-proBNP are helpful to distinguish between cardiac and pulmonary causes of respiratory distress in the ED setting; in children, there are studies, too, but with smaller patient numbers (Cohen 2004 J Am Coll Card 43(suppl):391A; Koulouri 2004 Pediatr Cardiol 25:341-6).
BNP is not useful to distinguish heart disease from sepsis (if only one is present), since sepsis also goes along with elevated BNP levels of BNP. In adults with severe sepsis, NT-proBNP is even predictive of survival at a cutoff of 1400 pmol/l (Brueckmann (2005) Circulation 112;527-534), and BNP correlates with CRP in sepsis in the absence of systolic myocardial dysfunction (Shor (2006) Eur J Int Med 17:536–540).
Finally, fluid overload, renal insufficiency, and mechanical ventilation are all factors that can influence BNP levels in PICU patients.
Apparently however, NT-proBNP is useful to predict the extent of recovery in children with myocarditis/acute DCM (Nasser (2005) Pediatr Cardiol 27:87–90).
In this clinical scenario, you wouldn't have done anything differently - even if you had drawn a BNP right away in the ED - since you figured out that there was a myocardial problem sooner than the lab would have told you the BNP result.
 
I agree that the BNP is probably more of a academic interest. It only was reflective of what was already known (really, even before the echo) and likely didn't change management. I'd imagine it may have been more of a tracking-over-time measure as Freibi alluded to.
Where I trained DA was almost never used in the PICU. Epi or norepi drips were commonly used for our septic patients.
BTW Freibi, thanks for those references, I'm going to have to peruse a few.
 
Thanks for the information!

I hope this kind of case presentation becomes common. Hopefully it also shows others what we do in peds and why we like it. I'll likely post more cases as time goes on, but would love it if OBP and others put up some cases too.
 
There was an excellent discussion of pediatric mycocarditis a few years back in Pediatric Critical Care medicine: November 2006, Volume 7, Issue 6 Supplement.

Ed
 
I'm curious J-rad, you guys infrequently used DA and more frequently used Epi/NE drips. I have heard similar thoughts from other peds residents, but no one can ever give me any data to support the reasoning.

Thoughts?
 
I'm curious J-rad, you guys infrequently used DA and more frequently used Epi/NE drips. I have heard similar thoughts from other peds residents, but no one can ever give me any data to support the reasoning.

Thoughts?

"Clinical practice parameters for hemodynamic support of pediatric and neonatal septic shock: 2007 update from the American College of Critical Care Medicine" Critical Care Medicine - Volume 37, Issue 2 (February 2009)(if you have an mdconsult account, you can get the full text there)

Has a nice discussion on the pharmacological management of septic shock and there are some pertinent articles referenced. You'll see that there isn't necessarily a "right" answer, just interpretation of the data out there some of which is from the adult world (which isn't always applicable).
 
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3 year old daughter with elevated CK-MB 12.4 (ref range less than 5) LDH elevated 379 (ref range 118-242) and elevated AST 44 (ref range 0-35); all other labs normal.
Skin rash around eyes, checks wrists and hands peeling.
dermatologist questioned dermatomyositis going to rhuematologist but pediatrician not sure what to think. Just looking for opinions.
 
3 year old daughter with elevated CK-MB 12.4 (ref range less than 5) LDH elevated 379 (ref range 118-242) and elevated AST 44 (ref range 0-35); all other labs normal.
Skin rash around eyes, checks wrists and hands peeling.
dermatologist questioned dermatomyositis going to rhuematologist but pediatrician not sure what to think. Just looking for opinions.
We do not give medical advice on this forum. Your daughter's doctors are far better suited to make her diagnosis and advise you on her treatment.

The thread you are posting in is for hypothetical case discussions, not actual medical advice.
 
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