2 pharmacy schools shut down, which ones next

[Actinomycin]

OK so we finally have two pharmacy schools shut down - Hampton University's appeal got denied and California Health Sciences University (CHSU) did not progress to accredited status - https://www.acpe-accredit.org/pdf/ReportofProceedingsJulyandAugust2020FINAL.pdf

Which are the next 5 to go down - any guesses?

My wild guesses -

Larkin and AUHS do not progress to accredited status (like CHSU)
Chicago State
Not sure what the fifth one could be

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[VA77]

OK so we finally have two pharmacy schools shut down - Hampton University's appeal got denied and California Health Sciences University (CHSU) did not progress to accredited status - https://www.acpe-accredit.org/pdf/ReportofProceedingsJulyandAugust2020FINAL.pdf

Which are the next 5 to go down - any guesses?

My wild guesses -

Larkin and AUHS do not progress to accredited status (like CHSU)
Chicago State
Not sure what the fifth one could be

Fantastic News!!!
Here are my picks. I wish we could bet on this.
CSU
Larkin
St Joe
Westcoast
Chapman

Honorable Mention
Appalachian
South College
New England
Sullivan
Touro NY

 

[Marzapan]

OK so we finally have two pharmacy schools shut down - Hampton University's appeal got denied and California Health Sciences University (CHSU) did not progress to accredited status - https://www.acpe-accredit.org/pdf/ReportofProceedingsJulyandAugust2020FINAL.pdf

Which are the next 5 to go down - any guesses?

My wild guesses -

Larkin and AUHS do not progress to accredited status (like CHSU)
Chicago State
Not sure what the fifth one could be

Close all of them except the top 25 schools.

 

[VA77]

Hampton already got the lawsuits rolling. Will Greg Boyer back down or stick to his guns?

Hampton University sues accreditor over fate of pharmacy program

After months of appeals, Hampton University has sued the American Council for Pharmacy Education over the university’s pharmacy doctorate program. The ACPE withdrew the Hampton University School of Pharmacy’s Pharm.D. accreditation earlier this year, citing low performance on licensing exams and...

news.yahoo.com

 

[PharmtoCS]

So Hampton and CSHU will implement their teach-out programs that will graduate their last classes in 2023.

Hooray! Saturation is ending!

University of California, Irvine has entered the chat.

 

[Gombrich12]

Husson is down to like 22 entering students, I don't see how they are viable at that level.

 

[mentos]

This is wonderful news! Probably the only positive news this profession has had in the past ten years.

 

[Sine Cura]

West Coast University sounds fake like Hearst College or California University

 

[Twentytwelve2]

isnt west coast under accredited status?

 

[mentos]

There's a school called West Coast University? When I hear that I think of West Coast Customs from Pimp my Ride.

 

[PromisedNeverland]

Lol what happens to people that graduated from CHSU or Hampton? Do they still get to keep their license?! Or is it money lost ?? OUCH

 

[PromisedNeverland]

There's a school called West Coast University? When I hear that I think of West Coast Customs from Pimp my Ride.

They should've just named it Best Coast University hehehe

 

[PromisedNeverland]

West Coast University sounds fake like Hearst College or California University

Sounds better than South Harmon Institute of Technology I love that University

 

[Twentytwelve2]

Lol what happens to people that graduated from CHSU or Hampton? Do they still get to keep their license?! Or is it money lost ?? OUCH

They cannot sit for the boards. They can look for industry jobs which dont need a license. Their only hope is an appeal

 

[PromisedNeverland]

They cannot sit for the boards. They can look for industry jobs which dont need a license. Their only hope is an appeal

Oh CHSU didn't have any previous grads? I thought they had some classes graduate already? I guess the ones that graduated are ok then lmao

CHSU sounds like it's been out a couple years now if I recall correctly

 

[Judgment Dragon]

UCI has entered the chat.

 

[hye345]

There's a school called West Coast University? When I hear that I think of West Coast Customs from Pimp my Ride.

If Snoop Dogg isn’t the president of that university, it will have been for nothing

 

[MilknCheerios]

Hampton already got the lawsuits rolling. Will Greg Boyer back down or stick to his guns?

Hampton University sues accreditor over fate of pharmacy program

After months of appeals, Hampton University has sued the American Council for Pharmacy Education over the university’s pharmacy doctorate program. The ACPE withdrew the Hampton University School of Pharmacy’s Pharm.D. accreditation earlier this year, citing low performance on licensing exams and...

news.yahoo.com

Good lord.

"Only 65% of 2019 graduates passed the NAPLEX professional licensing test on the first try — the third lowest any school in the country and well below the national average of 88%..."

This is a definite sign that the school is NOT producing quality graduates and current policies are invalid. Combine this with the high attrition rate, the board has very little reason to change its decision. If the accreditor reverses their decision, it sets a precedent for other schools to sue or "throw a tantrum" if they do not get accredited.

I'm all for minorities getting a solid education, even if it is pharmacy. However, a student that chooses to attend this school instead of all the other ones right now that are begging for applicants needs to rethink their priorities. Bringing race into this lawsuit just makes me cringe.

 

[PikminOC]

Aren't there schools that don't require pcat?

 

[samven582]

I hope Touro NY is next

 

[owlegrad]

Aren't there schools that don't require pcat?

Yup. Many I think.

 

[BidingMyTime]

Close all of them except the top 25 schools.

I would probably go with top 50. Before the pharmacy school expansion, there were like 80 pharmacy schools for many years, and that was a good number for equilibrium.

They cannot sit for the boards. They can look for industry jobs which dont need a license. Their only hope is an appeal

We've had the Hawaii College of Pharmacy thread here for a warning. 99.9% of the time, it is a bad idea to go to a school that does not yet have accreditation. With pharmacy schools, it's probably 99.99999999999999999999% of the time. It's an extreme gamble that is not worth it for anyone, when there are so many other accredited schools. I feel sorry for the students who were undoubtedly lied to by the administration and their high school/college counselors into thinking this was in anyway a reasonable gamble.

Aren't there schools that don't require pcat?

At this point I think there are more schools waiving the PCAT requirement, then there are schools still requiring it.

 

[NorthTexasPharmacist]

Does this mean the schools are going to shut down or they just need time to get accreditation in the future?

 

[MilknCheerios]

Does this mean the schools are going to shut down or they just need time to get accreditation in the future?

In a perfect world, yes, schools would have been shut down and the accreditation process halted before the number of schools reached triple digits. Pharmacy wasn't always saturated, but as existing schools began to increase enrollments in response to creation of all these newer schools, any outsider should see this akin to a Ponzi scheme designed to net as much of that (federal) loan/grant money as possible.

Closing down two schools does little to dent the glut of pharmacists, but I'll take any step in the right direction at this point.

 

[mentos]

2 down, 138 to go.

 

[lord999]

My personal guesses:

Chicago State will be the first state school to fail over funding although on probation now. I think it is a certainty that they will fail.

Husson is close to that status.

Funding concerns and not academic issues are a problem at Montana and have been for some time. Rumor mill is that Montana may end up closing theirs and sending their students to WICHE. They had to get a state bailout which I will be curious if that will be fixed or the state will defund it. Montana is a fine school with a great history of being productive for the state (especially given their lack of state support), it's just that they've always had funding troubles. Whether it makes sense to the state to continue to school or send their students to WICHE is one that will also affect Wyoming and Idaho whose population base does not justify their school's existence on normal grounds now.

Touro NY is a mess both on the DO and PharmD sides.

And no, ACPE will cave. Texas Southern proves that amply. Texas Southern should have been closed years ago even before the great expansion.

 

[NorthTexasPharmacist]

My personal guesses:

Chicago State will be the first state school to fail over funding although on probation now. I think it is a certainty that they will fail.

Husson is close to that status.

Funding concerns and not academic issues are a problem at Montana and have been for some time. Rumor mill is that Montana may end up closing theirs and sending their students to WICHE. They had to get a state bailout which I will be curious if that will be fixed or the state will defund it. Montana is a fine school with a great history of being productive for the state (especially given their lack of state support), it's just that they've always had funding troubles. Whether it makes sense to the state to continue to school or send their students to WICHE is one that will also affect Wyoming and Idaho whose population base does not justify their school's existence on normal grounds now.

Touro NY is a mess both on the DO and PharmD sides.

And no, ACPE will cave. Texas Southern proves that amply. Texas Southern should have been closed years ago even before the great expansion.

Texas Southern was a running joke when I was in pharmacy school. We all thought it should've been closed awhile ago. Now that market saturation is an immense problem, not only will Texas Southern have a problem keeping its door opened, Incarnate Word, the only private school in Texas might have a problem too. UT Austin, Texas Tech, U of Houston are probably the only ones that have a legitimate case of staying opened.

 

[steveysmith54]

If I am not mistaken CHSU was founded by the former dean from Cal NorthState. Interesting development.
Funny that the only location in CA, central CA, that may need a pharmacy school, somewhat, is being shut down. Instead we get another school in Irvine.
CHSU is also planning a DO school

Home

osteopathic.chsu.edu

Wonder if that will go as planned?

As far my predictions:
1. AUHS
2. West Coast

 

[PromisedNeverland]

+1 for

West Coast (students that rotated to my pharmacy just literally left mid rotations... leaves such a bad impression on the school)

 

[confettiflyer]

+1 for

West Coast (students that rotated to my pharmacy just literally left mid rotations... leaves such a bad impression on the school)

You didn’t kick them out? We kicked our students halfway through. No PPE for you!

 

[confettiflyer]

They should've just named it Best Coast University hehehe

That’s an insult to the band, lol.

My name for that school is generic-office-building-next-to-freeway school of pharmacy (GOBNTFSOP)

Ever drive by it?

 

[PromisedNeverland]

You didn’t kick them out? We kicked our students halfway through. No PPE for you!

they were let go

not sure how the school "disciplined" them though, if at all? Probably increased tuition fees hehe

 

[PromisedNeverland]

Aren't there schools that don't require pcat?

all Cali (best coast) schools don't require it

 

[PromisedNeverland]

Close all of them except the top 25 schools.

With the current situation we have, we can afford to close down all pharmacy schools for a while

 

[mentos]

Close all of them except the top 25 schools.

They should all be closed. There is no need for a single new pharmD for the next 10+ years.

They just laid off a per diem at my workplace who averaged like 4 hours per week, so yeah. This was their only job.

 

[Marzapan]

With the current situation we have, we can afford to close down all pharmacy schools for a while

They should all be closed. There is no need for a single new pharmD for the next 10+ years.

They just laid off a per diem at my workplace who averaged like 4 hours per week, so yeah.

Yeah I would say close all of them too, except this point: if you close all the pharmacy schools you will displace 100% of pharmacy faculty who will then end up competing for jobs against new grads/unemployed pharmacists. And they probably have a better chance of getting something because they will have a tremendous network to work off of. On the contrary, if you kept a few schools open (top 25), what this will do is improve the quality of pharmacy faculty because academia will still be a "viable" career path but due to the limited teaching positions now available there will be extreme competition for faculty positions. This will help reverse the stereotype that "those who can't, teach" and many of the displaced faculty will likely still try to get back into academia instead of competing for per diem retail jobs in BFE.

So by keeping a few schools open this will improve both the quality of students AND faculty.

 

[mentos]

Yeah I would say close all of them too, except this point: if you close all the pharmacy schools you will displace 100% of pharmacy faculty who will then end up competing for jobs against new grads/unemployed pharmacists. And they probably have a better chance of getting something because they will have a tremendous network to work off of. On the contrary, if you kept a few schools open (top 25), what this will do is improve the quality of pharmacy faculty because academia will still be a "viable" career path but due to the limited teaching positions now available there will be extreme competition for faculty positions. This will help reverse the stereotype that "those who can't, teach" and many of the displaced faculty will likely still try to get back into academia instead of competing for per diem retail jobs in BFE.

So by keeping a few schools open this will improve both the quality of students AND faculty.

Yeah it's much better to keep 25 schools open to pump out PharmDs every year...

 

[confettiflyer]

If you close all the pharmacy schools, chains would cry foul/cite patient safety concerns and lobby for/fast track the creation of the certified verification technician.

Think of the rarity of the anesthesiologist and the development of a CRNA, or the massive primary care physician shortage and the expansion of FNPs in that space.

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[mentos]

If you close all the pharmacy schools, chains would cry foul/cite patient safety concerns and lobby for/fast track the creation of the certified verification technician.

Think of the rarity of the anesthesiologist and the development of a CRNA, or the massive primary care physician shortage and the expansion of FNPs in that space.

Be careful what you wish for.

Unlike anesthesiologists and primary care physicians, there is no shortage of pharmacists at all.

 

[awval999]

If you close all the pharmacy schools, chains would cry foul/cite patient safety concerns and lobby for/fast track the creation of the certified verification technician.

Think of the rarity of the anesthesiologist and the development of a CRNA, or the massive primary care physician shortage and the expansion of FNPs in that space.

Be careful what you wish for.

Confetti *is* right. Although, Confetti is almost always right.

We never got to see what was behind Door #2. If the schools never expanded. But I assure you, it is not CVS and Walgreens paying staff pharmacists $150,000/year+ to staff their stores. They would have cried bloody murder to the government and state boards that "We can't serve our patients!~!~!~!". And soon enough, we'd have 4 year degree super-techs that would be verifying Rxs.

So we've hit a peak in salaries. New grads will see the straight cuts. Old guard will see no raises (inflation cuts) and constantly expanding metrics, and one mishap, you're OUT.

But again, the pharmacists still make $45-$50/hr. And there are no super techs. So Door #1 may have been the better of the two options.

 

[awval999]

Unlike anesthesiologists and primary care physicians, there is no shortage of pharmacists at all.

That's his point.

 

[mentos]

That's his point.

So what reason do the chains have to call foul if there are thousands of unemployed pharmacists waiting to be hired?

 

[owlegrad]

So what reason do the chains have to call foul if there are thousands of unemployed pharmacists waiting to be hired?

How long would that situation remain with zero schools? Not long.

 

[confettiflyer]

So what reason do the chains have to call foul if there are thousands of unemployed pharmacists waiting to be hired?

Homie, I was discussing the scenario of a hypothetical Thanos-snap evaporation of all pharmacy schools, not the current reality we are in.

 

[MatCauthon]

schools are going out of business left and right already. I'm pretty sure low applicants to the starting classes in 2020 and 2021 will kill off several more pharmacy schools. many of these youngsters are rethinking everything right now

 

[mentos]

Homie, I was discussing the scenario of a hypothetical Thanos-snap evaporation of all pharmacy schools, not the current reality we are in.

I was too. If all pharmacy schools stopped giving out pharmDs today, there would still be more pharmacists than needed for ten+ years.

 

[mentos]

How long would that situation remain with zero schools? Not long.

I'm guessing 10+ years. Walgreens just laid off a couple thousand pharmacists. Where are they all going to work? CVS will likely follow. Stores close every year. 15,000 new PharmDs just graduated and very few of them are employed full time with 40 hours. There are PharmDs from previous classes that are still unemployed. Many pharmacists are getting way less than 40 hours right now. My workplace has 7 or so per diems looking for more work. They're getting about one shift per week now. One of them was just let go, that was their only job.

 

[Marzapan]

I was too. If all pharmacy schools stopped giving out pharmDs today, there would still be more pharmacists than needed for ten+ years.

The thing is, unemployed pharmacists have a shelf life of MAYBE 2 years max. If you closed down every school today it won't take 10 years for the market to fix itself, maybe like 3-5 years because after 2 years, the vast majority of unemployed pharmacists are "permanently unhirable" with a gap that large. Imagine a reality where if schools really do close down altogether and every existing pharmacist was verbally promised a job as they open up - I'd hate to be the 50,000th pharmacist who has to wait 6 years to get their first job. By that point I'd have absolute nothing to contribute to an employer because I haven't been working in the industry or sharpening my skills. So closing down schools will really only help the unemployed pharmacists at the "front of the line" get jobs; it is still a lost cause for the rest of the pack.

 

[mentos]

The thing is, unemployed pharmacists have a shelf life of MAYBE 2 years max. If you closed down every school today it won't take 10 years for the market to fix itself, maybe like 3-5 years because after 2 years, the vast majority of unemployed pharmacists are "permanently unhirable" with a gap that large. Imagine a reality where if schools really do close down altogether and every existing pharmacist was verbally promised a job as they open up - I'd hate to be the 50,000th pharmacist who has to wait 6 years to get their first job. By that point I'd have absolute nothing to contribute to an employer because I haven't been working in the industry or sharpening my skills. So closing down schools will really only help the unemployed pharmacists at the "front of the line" get jobs; it is still a lost cause for the rest of the pack.

Don't forget the pharmacists who would pickup extra shifts or get a second job if the opportunities were there. With no bonuses or raises, plenty of currently employed pharmacists would gladly work more if given the opportunity.

 

[Marzapan]

Don't forget the pharmacists who would pickup extra shifts or get a second job if the opportunities were there. With no bonuses or raises, plenty of currently employed pharmacists would gladly work more if given the opportunity.

Well if pharmacy is already at a point where the barrier to entry is like trying to break into Trump's White House bunker, then it doesn't really matter if you close down schools because there is enough supply among employed pharmacists to deal with attrition. Given that the pharmacy boom happened in the 2000-2010s, most currently employed pharmacists are likely in their 40s so it'll take 25 years until they retire for there to be opportunities for outsiders.