2 questions. (Contacting grad students? and getting letters?)

[danzgymn86]

Okay this could be two threads but I will combine it into one.

Okay first of all...I have read posts by people who say to contact the professors that they are interested in working with. Well, is it a bad idea to also contact the grad students they currently work with? Also, what kind of questions should I ask/what would I say in the email??

Also...about getting letters of rec...should they all be from the Psych department? I know that I will need 3 letters.
I have two that are practically guarantees in the Psych department but I don't have a third one! My advisor told me to maybe consider going outside of the department and take a smaller writing type class in a sociology class or something and then asking that person for a letter. Is this a bad idea? (Because most Psych classes here are about 50 people...and it's kind of hard for a single professor to get to know you when it's straight up lecture and virtually no discussion.)

Also, I'll be applying to Social programs but does it matter if my letters are from Clinical people or not?
This is what I will have:
1. One from a Clinical professor. I had her for 3 smaller-sized classes, one was a Writing class and she gave me 100s on like everything. For another class, she gave me a 104 on my term paper. I'm not trying to brag but I think it's important that she will be able to say something positive about my writing/analytical abilities? I am also working in her lab this semester and I will be for 3 semesters total by the time I graduate...although all I am doing right now is coding and running subjects for experiments and attending weekly meetings. But she knows me relatively well, all things considered.

2. One actually from my TA. He is a current grad student who will have his PhD next year in Social Psych. (He has an MA from a different school already and he was a professor for 2 years at another college with his MA.) He was my grader for Social Psych last semester (I got As on 5 of the 6 papers) and he is currently my TA for the lab portion of a research class. So he knows what I am like in there as well as far as research/writing/idea design abilities. He said if my group project gets any results (though it is doubtful) he will try to get us a poster presentation somewhere. Also, I am working in his lab for credit and in there, I am doing a LOT of lit review for him. I'll also be running subjects and stuff. I'll have 1.5 years in there as well by the time I graduate. Oh and he and an actual professor (don't know who yet) will be supervising the independent study I proposed to do for next year. So he knows me pretty well as well.

But I'm at a loss for a 3rd one. I don't know any other professors that well. I could ask my TA's supervisor (since, while I said I am working in HIS lab, it's really also with HIS advisor)...but I've met the lady twice...so she couldn't really write me a letter that would be any different than what my TA would write and his would probably be better.

The only small class I have now I probably can't get a letter from because I really don't think that the professor writes them. (That seems to be the consensus.) He's pretty old (85) and retired. Ummmmmm...so I don't know? I guess I can take a writing course outside of my major and get a letter from there? Orrrrr...?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[danzgymn86]

Also, my advisor had mentioned at one point having "teaching experience." Mmm, not too sure what she means by that or why it's important. The only reason it could be important is for after you are accepted and they are looking to place TAs...or something?

 

[irish80122]

I think it depends. Some professors will say on their websites that you may contact their graduate students and give you emails. Also, sometimes the graduate students will say on their profile that it is alright to contact them. In these cases I would contact graduate students, otherwise I wouldn't. Really, if in doubt, I wouldn't just because you will get to meet them and get a good assessment of the program at the interviews.

As for what questions to ask, I would ask about what the program is like or what it is like to work with that professor. What is their mentorship style? Things of that nature.

I personally like having three letters from Psych professors, and I think you should try to shoot for that, but if you think a different professor can provide you with a stronger letter than go for that. I had two letters which spoke of my research, one of which being from a professor who specialized in the field I wanted to go into, and then the third was a professor who could speak of my abilities in the classroom and also clinically. Just try to give them the full picture but be sure the letters will be strong.

I don't think so. My letters came from two counseling psychologists and a developmental and I got into a clinical program. I will be honest, I am nervous about the letter coming from a graduate student. I have heard that you should avoid this, but I will be interested to see what other people on the board say about it. The third recommendation is always the hardest. Several people used our professor for honors thesis so if you are going to do an honors thesis that may be an option. If not, I would pick whomever can speak of you the best and give you a strong letter of recommendation. Good luck!

 

[danzgymn86]

The thing about the grad student is that, at one point, my advisor told me that sometimes grad students write the letters.
At a research meeting, he also said something to the effect of "(His advisor's name) and I will be the one writing your letters of recommendation for grad school."
Also, he WAS teaching at another college before, with his MA, so I figure, he may have written a letter or 2 while he was there?
Other opinions?

 

[LadyInRed]

I don't think you need to have all 3 letters from psych professors, and I actually didn't. As irish said, just be sure that they can get the whole picture. So you would want to have people who, between them, could speak to you as a student in a class, as a TA (or maybe just oral communication skills if you don't have teaching or tutoring experience), as a researcher, and as a future clinician, if you have all of those experiences. If you haven't done research for any professors besides the ones you mentioned, maybe use a volunteer coordinator at a place that you got some clinical experience who could talk about how you would work with patients. I wouldn't ask a grad student to write your letter.

As for one of your other questions, many professors don't like you contacting their grad students prior to getting an interview or offer with them. In fact, many program websites explicitly say not to. If you think about yourself as a future grad student, there could be 30+ people applying to work in your lab, and you would not have the time to answer all of their questions or the desire to schedule calls with every one of them. If you really want to talk to a grad student prior to submitting your application, in the email to the professor mentioning your interest, you could say that you would like to talk to the prof's grad students and see how the prof responds to that. More than likely though, they will say that if you get an interview, then you can contact the grad students.

 

[danzgymn86]

I don't think you need to have all 3 letters from psych professors, and I actually didn't. As irish said, just be sure that they can get the whole picture. So you would want to have people who, between them, could speak to you as a student in a class, as a TA (or maybe just oral communication skills if you don't have teaching or tutoring experience), as a researcher, and as a future clinician, if you have all of those experiences. If you haven't done research for any professors besides the ones you mentioned, maybe use a volunteer coordinator at a place that you got some clinical experience who could talk about how you would work with patients. I wouldn't ask a grad student to write your letter.

quote]


^^I am applying to Social programs so the experience as a future clinician is irrelevant. I don't actually have any teaching experience because, well, I am an undergrad.
So I can get:
1. My professor who I had for 3 classes and whose lab I work in.
2. Maybe my TA?
3. Whichever professor ends up supervising my independent study with my TA next semester. (However, if professor #1 ends up supervising with my TA, well, then, I'm out of luck.)

I'd still be at a loss for a second letter since some people say not to get them from a TA....is it bad even though I feel that the strongest of the letters would come from him, as he knows me best?

I don't have a volunteer coordinator for Clinical experience, because, well, I'm not in Clinical.
And I'm not exactly sure what I could do for experience in the Social field. What IS Social experience? Some kind of data analysis internship?

 

[danzgymn86]

Okay so I decided to put off my next "related" class until my last semester of my senior year so that I can take an extra Psych class and get a letter from a Psych professor. So even though there are 50 people in that class, it is "Current Topics" so I would imagine that there is discussion. Also, I am going to have to really try to go to his office hours a lot.
(I'm really worried about the letters...)
1. The current topics professor (Social, so it's in my area). So, he'll just be able to speak of me in the classroom.
2. The prof I have had for 3 classes and at least 2 semesters of research...she knows me well (Clinical though)..she can speak of me in both classroom and research and discussion-leading.
3. hmmmmm well my TA (Social) or...whoever ends up supervising my Independent Study with him next year. However, if the supervisor is my letter writer 1 or 2, then I am screwed. (If I use him, he can speak of me in lab class and in research and as a writer. If I use the person who supervises with him, they will only be able to speak of my abilities in research, IF that...since it's really the grad students who over-see everything. Then stuff is just under a "real" professor's name as a formality. So they'd be writing a letter having only contacted me twice or just based on what their grad students tells them about me...)
Can someone tell me why it would be looked down upon for a grad student to write a letter? (He's getting his PhD the same time I graduate...too bad I'm not graduating one semester or two semesters after that so he could have his PhD already!!)

 

[RayneeDeigh]

Okay so I decided to put off my next "related" class until my last semester of my senior year so that I can take an extra Psych class and get a letter from a Psych professor. So even though there are 50 people in that class, it is "Current Topics" so I would imagine that there is discussion. Also, I am going to have to really try to go to his office hours a lot.
(I'm really worried about the letters...)
1. The current topics professor (Social, so it's in my area). So, he'll just be able to speak of me in the classroom.
2. The prof I have had for 3 classes and at least 2 semesters of research...she knows me well (Clinical though)..she can speak of me in both classroom and research and discussion-leading.
3. hmmmmm well my TA (Social) or...whoever ends up supervising my Independent Study with him next year. However, if the supervisor is my letter writer 1 or 2, then I am screwed. (If I use him, he can speak of me in lab class and in research and as a writer. If I use the person who supervises with him, they will only be able to speak of my abilities in research, IF that...since it's really the grad students who over-see everything. Then stuff is just under a "real" professor's name as a formality. So they'd be writing a letter having only contacted me twice or just based on what their grad students tells them about me...)
Can someone tell me why it would be looked down upon for a grad student to write a letter? (He's getting his PhD the same time I graduate...too bad I'm not graduating one semester or two semesters after that so he could have his PhD already!!)

It's sad but true that the more "prestige" your letter-writers have, the better it is for you. More established professionals are thought to be better at predicting your future success.

I used a PhD student for one of mine because I had a lot of experience writing research papers for her class, and I wish that I hadn't. I think it hurt my application a lot.

 

[danzgymn86]

It's sad but true that the more "prestige" your letter-writers have, the better it is for you. More established professionals are thought to be better at predicting your future success.

I used a PhD student for one of mine because I had a lot of experience writing research papers for her class, and I wish that I hadn't. I think it hurt my application a lot.

So I should just have my TA tell his supervisor stuff about me and have her write the letter? Seems dumb buuuut...I suppose.

I may not even have to worry about this though if someone "good" ie, well known, ends up supervising me next year, but I can't count on that!!

However, the two I would have so far are not that "well-known"...fairly new professors. One just got his PhD in 2001 and the other, in the 80s BUT she was in private practice for a while and so has only been a professor for a few years....

 

[paramour]

Keep in mind this is simply my thoughts on the matter.

I, too, had problems locating a 3rd LOR during my first application cycle a few years back. I was a fairly nontraditional student and took a lot of night courses, many of which were not taught by full-time faculty. I actually decided to take a few additional classes my last year with full-time faculty, simply so I could request a LOR from them. I had several courses with one of these profs already, so not as bad, but the second prof I did this with had only taught one of my prior courses. No idea what he wrote but he was willing to put in a good word for me, or so he said. I still had no one for my 3rd LOR but I did have a number of classes with a prof in another department, so I asked her and she wrote what was likely the absolutely best letter out of my three that year. She addressed my ability to work in a discipline other than my major field of study as well as integrate my interests into that field . . . among other things. I never had second doubts.

THIS application cycle, I once again had difficulty with the 3rd LOR. I ended up with only one of the same profs writing for me this time around. I did not ask the other two writers because I didn't have any relevant contact with them the past few years. I easily figured out a second one and then ended up stuck on the third one. I debated between three profs and finally opted for the dept chair . . . and then came back later and requested a 4th letter from one of those other two I was deliberating on. I had not initially selected her for my 3rd because I was advised against it by other students who had horrible problems with her letters in the past. I am now extremely glad that I did because hers was hands-down the best LOR I have ever received from someone. I almost thought I was going to have to give up on her because she gave them to me 2-3 weeks after I requested she return them but the wait was well-worth it.

NOW, all of that being said . . . For one, this lends additional support to what one of the previous posters already indicated. Many of us have problems locating that 3rd LOR.

And, now on to those questions, about grad students/TAs writing your letters . . . I, personally, would not do it. Why? Well, I would not take a class with a grad student/TA unless I had absolutely no choice in the matter, so I sure as heck would not request a LOR from one. Nothing against grad students/TAs but they obviously do not have the same level experience as profs, so I would likely not take anything they said as 'seriously'(?) as that of a prof, regardless of how 'new' that prof is. IF I had a good relationship with a prof in another field who was willing to do so, I would tap that resource before resorting to a TA. And, if I didn't, then I would consider either taking courses with a prof I may have only had once/twice before or with a new prof while attempting to build good rapport with that individual during that limited time period. If that's not feasible, I would then go to mentors/supervisors from internship/research labs . . .

ALERT: Only truly relevant part to post . . .

Basically, TA = last resort.

Of course, for some that's not possible, particularly since I have seen some profs who indicate their TAs are the one to write the LORs anyway as they will not do so under any circumstances. May be unfair but 'tis just another hoop you get to jump in this crap shoot called the application process.

G'luck!

/rambling