2009 Match Results Disappointing

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Whether it's completely true or not, the stigma for FM is that it's what people in the bottom of their class, people from rural areas who want to go back and be that do it all doc, or FMG's go into


Stigma is like the tooth fairy, it exists [and matters] as much as each individual person wants it to.


The question I have to ask then is, why would I or any other top tier candidate pick FM over a specialty such as mine where I have direct patient care, work excellent hours, and get paid significantly better than primary care?


Because for some people, it just is what they like...

What good is everything else if you don't really like what you do and you feel miserable getting up to go to work every morning?

Not everyone is happy going down the ROAD route.

Cheers.
 
The question I have to ask then is, why would I or any other top tier candidate pick FM over a specialty such as mine where I have direct patient care, work excellent hours, and get paid significantly better than primary care?

Um...maybe because we enjoy primary care? That's as good a reason as any.
 
I got that you all enjoyed your profession. My statement was in regards to the comment regarding how to attract top tier AMG's into family practice. Many of those students I'm sure are interested but family practice has to compete with specialties that offer the benefit of patient care, better hours, and better salary. My question simply was what does or will FP offer to counter that?
 
With our current system, the government basically decides how much physicians make. You can increase the number of patients you see or the number of procedures you perform but Medicare basically sets the rate of reimbursement. Those rates currently heavily reward procedures, and certain specialties greatly benefit. Fields like rads and derm are competitive because they are highly reimbursed. There is nothing involved so complex or difficult that only the brightest students can master.
I fail to understand the argument that good board scores and grades should equal a better salary. I keep trying, but I can't get my employer to pay me my high school valedictorian bonus. Good grades and board scores give you a choice and opportunity, not a right to cash.

I'm pretty happy with my income. I work hard and I'm generally well paid for it. I don't want to rob from the "earners" to pad my salary. I think neurosurgeons should be very well compensated for the misery they endure. However, it is not any MORE socialist or communist or whatever to change the reimbursement structure that is already set by the government. It should reflect the effort and skill required, but that is all very subjective. Currently, gastroenterologists make much more than endocrinologists. I understand why that happens, but I don't understand why the systems makes that happen.
 
My question simply was what does or will FP offer to counter that?


Family medicine makes less money than many fields. But I don't know of a field that improves on patient care, and the potential hours are fantastic. There is tremendous autonomy and flexibilty. There are lots of reasons why I chose FM, but match rates won't improve until the income gap closes.
 
I think you are very wrong about who winds up in primary care. I think primary care attracts those who love to learn and don't want to limit themselves to a particular subspecialty as they would become bored with such a narrow field of practice. Additionally, I think the respect for family practice doctors is a lot higher than you think. I think what you see in reality from the subspecialists is fear that family practice docs will encroach on what they see as their territory which often times prompts bogus mudslinging. A lot of what subspecialists do different than primary care is of highly questionable benefit and when of benefit mostly not any different than that offered by FM docs when it comes to medical management. Not only do long time practicing physicians know this to be true but studies bear this out. Increased specialty care actually results in worse outcomes. Some of the most knowledgeable attendings are FM docs. You can't help from becoming incredibly knowledgeable in such a broad field after years of practice. Being a gunner in medical school is not as important as having a long term interest in the overall science of medicine and continued interest and dedication when it comes to being a good or great physician.
 
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I think you are very wrong about who winds up in primary care. I think primary care attracts those who love to learn and don't want to limit themselves to a particular subspecialty as they would become bored with such a narrow field of practice. Additionally, I think the respect for family practice doctors is a lot higher than you think. I think what you see in reality from the subspecialists is fear that family practice docs will encroach on what they see as their territory which often times prompts bogus mudslinging. A lot of what subspecialists do different than primary care is of highly questionable benefit and when of benefit mostly not any different than that offered by FM docs when it comes to medical management. Not only do long time practicing physicians know this to be true but studies bear this out. Increased specialty care actually results in worse outcomes. Some of the most knowledgeable attendings are FM docs. You can't help from becoming incredibly knowledgeable in such a broad field after years of practice. Being a gunner in medical school is not as important as having a long term interest in the overall science of medicine and continued interest and dedication when it comes to being a good or great physician.

speaking of bogus mudslinging.


Tuition reimbursement to one subset of physicians...you have to be kidding me. No offense, but if you pick a primary care specialty you should walk into it knowing that at this time subspecialties are going to be reimbursed at a higher rate and that it will be harder for you to pay back loans. Will that always be the case, who knows?

Why do you think the cream of the crop AMG's are jumping on ROAD specialties for the most part? Great pay and great hours. I made it to the top of my class and had top notch board scores and knew I was headed into a lifestyle specialty because of it. That's the current state of specialty selection at this time.

Originally Posted by *aparecida*
*I don't believe the overall physician-pay pie is going to get any larger. Granting a larger share of it to primary care means it will have to come at someone's expense*. My vote there is for the ROAD specialties, which I think are grossly, unsustainably overpaid.

Seriously, you have to be kidding me. As a Radiation Oncology resident, I don't see my specialty as overpaid, if anything underpaid. If you look at the clinical, physics, and biology components as well as the technical skill that goes into procedures such as brachytherapy, you would realize that it simply does not make sense to take from ROAD specialties to give to primary care.


man, this sort of ignorance is what creates boundaries... it is sad, but at the same time have to realize that it exists.
Doesn't bother me. My credentials speak for itself -- as well as the top students in my class -- who all chose Primary Care.
I really hope that there soon exists better unity amongst Physician salaried positions, otherwise nonsense like above will continue to exist.
This type of nonsense makes me nauseated. Nonetheless -- I did happen to log on, and hit the reply button out of spite only.
 
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I do agree with the above post saying that if FM is to get top tier AMG candidates that something has to change. I just don't see it happening at this time. The question I have to ask then is, why would I or any other top tier candidate pick FM over a specialty such as mine where I have direct patient care, work excellent hours, and get paid significantly better than primary care?

I was going to say "because we like the job" but then everyone else beat me to it. So, plus one.

Hey, you ask a great question and we can sell the job until the cows come home, but just like EdibleEgg said, until the income gap closes, match rates will suck.

Dregs. Awesome. I haven't been called that in a long time. If I'm dregs for being an FP, I'm reassured then that the rest of the nation's physicians are full of incredibly brilliant people and I'll be in good hands when I get sick some day.

If salary is an indicator for how well someone did in school, then those pediatricians are some pretty stupid people because I know I make more than they do.

So... you should ask the question (and this has been asked before by health economists): "why would I or any other top tier candidate pick PEDIATRICS over a specialty such as mine where I have direct patient care, work excellent hours, and get paid significantly better than PEDIATRICS?"

Because they enjoy working with kids. Unthinkable.


I understand why that happens, but I don't understand why the systems makes that happen.

The System Giveth, and The System Taketh. Whenever it wants. And the good pay and good hours for some specialties can easily be taken away. I have a feeling some specialties are already staring down the gun barrel of that possibility...
 
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speaking of bogus mudslinging.


Tuition reimbursement to one subset of physicians...you have to be kidding me. No offense, but if you pick a primary care specialty you should walk into it knowing that at this time subspecialties are going to be reimbursed at a higher rate and that it will be harder for you to pay back loans. Will that always be the case, who knows?

Why do you think the cream of the crop AMG's are jumping on ROAD specialties for the most part? Great pay and great hours. I made it to the top of my class and had top notch board scores and knew I was headed into a lifestyle specialty because of it. That's the current state of specialty selection at this time.

Originally Posted by *aparecida*
*I don't believe the overall physician-pay pie is going to get any larger. Granting a larger share of it to primary care means it will have to come at someone's expense*. My vote there is for the ROAD specialties, which I think are grossly, unsustainably overpaid.

Seriously, you have to be kidding me. As a Radiation Oncology resident, I don't see my specialty as overpaid, if anything underpaid. If you look at the clinical, physics, and biology components as well as the technical skill that goes into procedures such as brachytherapy, you would realize that it simply does not make sense to take from ROAD specialties to give to primary care.

man, this sort of ignorance is what creates boundaries... it is sad, but at the same time have to realize that it exists.
Doesn't bother me. My credentials speak for itself -- as well as the top students in my class -- who all chose Primary Care.
I really hope that there soon exists better unity amongst Physician salaried positions, otherwise nonsense like above will continue to exist.
This type of nonsense makes me nauseated. Nonetheless -- I did happen to log on, and hit the reply button out of spite only.

Since none what you posted under my post except your one-liner relates at all to my post maybe you can clarify and I will respond.
 
Edible Egg/Low Budget:
“I fail to understand the argument that good board scores and grades should equal a better salary. I keep trying, but I can't get my employer to pay me my high school valedictorian bonus. Good grades and board scores give you a choice and opportunity, not a right to cash.”

“If salary is an indicator for how well someone did in school, then those pediatricians are some pretty stupid people because I know I make more than they do.”

I never said that good board scores and grades equal a better salary. What I did say was that the majority (not all) AMG students who have those numbers are going to pick specialties that offer those excellent salaries with a good lifestyle and that this is one of the reasons for disappointing match results that were the basis of this thread.

MedicineDoc:
“…I think what you see in reality from the subspecialists is fear that family practice docs will encroach on what they see as their territory which often times prompts bogus mudslinging. A lot of what subspecialists do different than primary care is of highly questionable benefit and when of benefit mostly not any different than that offered by FM docs when it comes to medical management. Not only do long time practicing physicians know this to be true but studies bear this out. Increased specialty care actually results in worse outcomes. “

Couldn’t disagree with you more. As a Rad Onc, I worry very little about primary care getting into my field at all. As for the benefit of what I do, it’s significantly different than what any other specialty offers and I have evidenced based medicine that shows a benefit to the treatments I offer.

AndWhat:

You comment on my so called bogus mudslinging. Where in my post did I bash FM? I’ve simply stated repeatedly that at this time FM does not get an equivalent share of the top tier AMG candidates compared to ROAD specialties. I stated that this is primarily due to better salaries, hours, and prestige that accompany ROAD specialties compared to FM.
You state that, “My credentials speak for itself -- as well as the top students in my class -- who all chose Primary Care.” Well look at the overall picture…compare the stats for FM as a whole to any of the ROAD specialties or Rad Onc. I’m sure there are lots of individual cases of exceptional students picking primary care, however, there are a large number of FM residents who didn’t pick the specialty because of their love for it. They picked it because they couldn’t get into another specialty.

The people who have replied to this thread seem a bit too excited to jump on me. I’m not trying to bash FM, I think it’s an excellent specialty and one that bridges the patient to specialty care. I was simply stating why I think the FM match results are so disappointing and why AMG’s are abandoning the specialty (based on the stats)
 
Edible Egg/Low Budget:
"I fail to understand the argument that good board scores and grades should equal a better salary. I keep trying, but I can't get my employer to pay me my high school valedictorian bonus. Good grades and board scores give you a choice and opportunity, not a right to cash."

"If salary is an indicator for how well someone did in school, then those pediatricians are some pretty stupid people because I know I make more than they do."

I never said that good board scores and grades equal a better salary. What I did say was that the majority (not all) AMG students who have those numbers are going to pick specialties that offer those excellent salaries with a good lifestyle and that this is one of the reasons for disappointing match results that were the basis of this thread.

MedicineDoc:
"…I think what you see in reality from the subspecialists is fear that family practice docs will encroach on what they see as their territory which often times prompts bogus mudslinging. A lot of what subspecialists do different than primary care is of highly questionable benefit and when of benefit mostly not any different than that offered by FM docs when it comes to medical management. Not only do long time practicing physicians know this to be true but studies bear this out. Increased specialty care actually results in worse outcomes. "

Couldn't disagree with you more. As a Rad Onc, I worry very little about primary care getting into my field at all. As for the benefit of what I do, it's significantly different than what any other specialty offers and I have evidenced based medicine that shows a benefit to the treatments I offer.

AndWhat:

You comment on my so called bogus mudslinging. Where in my post did I bash FM? I've simply stated repeatedly that at this time FM does not get an equivalent share of the top tier AMG candidates compared to ROAD specialties. I stated that this is primarily due to better salaries, hours, and prestige that accompany ROAD specialties compared to FM.
You state that, "My credentials speak for itself -- as well as the top students in my class -- who all chose Primary Care." Well look at the overall picture…compare the stats for FM as a whole to any of the ROAD specialties or Rad Onc. I'm sure there are lots of individual cases of exceptional students picking primary care, however, there are a large number of FM residents who didn't pick the specialty because of their love for it. They picked it because they couldn't get into another specialty.

The people who have replied to this thread seem a bit too excited to jump on me. I'm not trying to bash FM, I think it's an excellent specialty and one that bridges the patient to specialty care. I was simply stating why I think the FM match results are so disappointing and why AMG's are abandoning the specialty (based on the stats)



prestiege OMG oooooooooooooooooh man..... :laugh::laugh: thanks for the good laugh. That is unbelievably shortsighted.
I think that it is alot of insecurity in the particular field -- this is why people bash Primary Care . It is fun reading this sort of stuff though, please do not get me wrong.
I do have a strong feeling that we are feeding the troll however. It is very very funny!
 
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Funny, I'm sensing a lot of insecurity among those in FM considering how viciously you are all jumping on wagy. He/she was merely expressing an opinion on why the FM match was disappointing. An opinion I agree with btw as another AMG who opted for a ROAD specialty
 
Funny, I'm sensing a lot of insecurity among those in FM considering how viciously you are all jumping on wagy. He/she was merely expressing an opinion on why the FM match was disappointing. An opinion I agree with btw as another AMG who opted for a ROAD specialty

oh man... I just knew that this had to start :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

This coming from a medical student? Interesting!

Don't feed the trolls.... over and out.

Nothing 'bashing' Rads Onc, its a good specialty -- but also has its own positives and negatives. I highly doubt the validity of this particular poster nonetheless.
 
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Before you questions someone's validity make sure you have the facts to back it up. Check out my previous posts over the course of the last 2 1/2 years. You will see I am pretty consistent and yes I am a radiation oncology resident whether you choose to believe it or not.

I wasn't trying to provoke the FP board here or to start a pissing match. I simply was pointing out the reasons why the FP match was what it was today and why the trends are showing a decreasing number of AMG's going to FP. For those of you who think that my arguements here are insulting FP need to either reread my posts or get a thicker skin.

It's not worth my time anymore to try to insight meaningful discussion with a group that seems hell bent on fighting me.
 
Before you questions someone's validity make sure you have the facts to back it up. Check out my previous posts over the course of the last 2 1/2 years. You will see I am pretty consistent and yes I am a radiation oncology resident whether you choose to believe it or not.

I wasn't trying to provoke the FP board here or to start a pissing match. I simply was pointing out the reasons why the FP match was what it was today and why the trends are showing a decreasing number of AMG's going to FP. For those of you who think that my arguements here are insulting FP need to either reread my posts or get a thicker skin.

It's not worth my time anymore to try to insight meaningful discussion with a group that seems hell bent on fighting me.

aw please don't be upset!! is this board under prestigious for you? why are you incessantly posting here? isn't you're time too prestigious? don't feed the troll!
 
oh man... I just knew that this had to start :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

This coming from a medical student? Interesting!

Don't feed the trolls.... over and out.

Nothing 'bashing' Rads Onc, its a good specialty -- but also has its own positives and negatives. I highly doubt the validity of this particular poster nonetheless.

Considering the vast majority of American medical students are passing on family medicine, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss them 🙄

If you re-read Wagy's posts, he wasn't 'bashing' FM. It's a good specialty, and interestingly enough, also has its own positives and negatives.........
 
Considering the vast majority of American medical students are passing on family medicine, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss them 🙄

If you re-read Wagy's posts, he wasn't 'bashing' FM. It's a good specialty, and interestingly enough, also has its own positives and negatives.........


so what in the world does the fact-- that the vast majority of amgs didn't choose fm-- have anything to do with me???? what significance would that have in you're life ?? I don't care, maybe somebody here does? not me. just this bickering and fighting-- goodness wow..... it behooves me, that people like you- go out of you're way, to somehow negate primary care-- why is the question?? and why don't you have anything more prestigious to do?? I don't understand-- it is like an impulse disorder-- why in the world would you need to spend a significant portion of you're day-- desperately pointing out to people on a discussion board, that amgs didn't chose fm. I just do not understand the obsessive fixation upon this. there aren't more important things to do, or think about perhaps?? I don't get it. insecurity?? should we all run to other forums "we get paid more than you!! and are more prestigious, you are insecure!!" talk about cyber-waste... mmann... this is very primitive actually--if you analyze it carefully enough. live and let live. its not a monetary issue, or even lifestyle -- its job satisfaction, and loving what you do. I certainly love what I do overall.
over $200 K in my first year, 2 weeks off per month, I don't need a five year long residency-- what is you're point???? what is the specific point that you want to make, I have made mine.
 
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..........

Are you serious?

Why don't you try re-reading the very 1st post? We're discussing the fact that the 2009 match was disappointing because the number of family medicine positions filled by U.S. seniors decreased by 7.4 percent. Part of the discussion is to inquire about why this occurred.

You picked the wrong thread to enter if you don't want to entertain those thoughts.

so what in the world does the fact-- that the vast majority of amgs didn't choose fm-- have anything to do with me???? what significance would that have in you're life ?? I don't care, maybe somebody here does? not me. just this bickering and fighting-- goodness wow..... it behooves me, that people like you- go out of you're way, to somehow negate primary care-- why is the question?? and why don't you have anything more prestigious to do?? I don't understand-- it is like an impulse disorder-- why in the world would you need to spend a significant portion of you're day-- desperately pointing out to people on a discussion board, that amgs didn't chose fm. I just do not understand the obsessive fixation upon this. there aren't more important things to do, or think about perhaps?? I don't get it. insecurity?? should we all run to other forums "we get paid more than you!! and are more prestigious, you are insecure!!" talk about cyber-waste... mmann... this is very primitive actually--if you analyze it carefully enough. live and let live. its not a monetary issue, or even lifestyle -- its job satisfaction, and loving what you do. I certainly love what I do overall.
over $200 K in my first year, 2 weeks off per month, I don't need a five year long residency-- what is you're point???? what is the specific point that you want to make, I have made mine.
 
Edible Egg/Low Budget:
“I fail to understand the argument that good board scores and grades should equal a better salary. I keep trying, but I can't get my employer to pay me my high school valedictorian bonus. Good grades and board scores give you a choice and opportunity, not a right to cash.”

I never said that good board scores and grades equal a better salary. What I did say was that the majority (not all) AMG students who have those numbers are going to pick specialties that offer those excellent salaries with a good lifestyle and that this is one of the reasons for disappointing match results that were the basis of this thread.

Relax a little, my first post was not a response to you. It had nothing to do with your post. I was responding to earlier posts that likened changing the reimbursement structure to communism.

My second post was directed your way, but all I was trying to say was that Family Medicine IS a lifestyle speciality, it's just the money that keeps match rates low.

I do have one question though, and I really hope you respond. You mentioned in one of your posts that Rad Onc is underpaid or under valued. What is your justification for that? I'm really not trying to pick a fight here. I do want to know. Free market forces don't really apply, so how do you make that valuation? I don't have that answer, and I've often had a similar discussion with a PhD friend of mine, so I've been on both sides.

This is usually a pretty friendly place, maybe the "dreggs" comment set the wrong tone, maybe we are a little sensitive.

Cheers
 
Funny, I'm sensing a lot of insecurity among those in FM considering how viciously you are all jumping on wagy. He/she was merely expressing an opinion on why the FM match was disappointing. An opinion I agree with btw as another AMG who opted for a ROAD specialty

Insecure? No. I'm not insecure. At least not about what I do for a living. And I'll wager that the docs on this forum are certainly not insecure. Insecure people don't go against traffic to do a job we do. Insecure people are lemings. And there ain't a whole lot of lemings picking FM.

Touchy subject? Oh definitely. Because I don't think any of us have a good answer to Wagy's question. And it's a great question. We know why we, individually, picked FM. But how do we convince other people to do FM? We can't!

Wagy (and everyone else who is thinking the same question)... the people you really should ask are your *policymakers.* Those are the guys who have the answers. I'm talking about government. I'm talking about bureaucrats like CMS. I'm talking about insurance. I'm talking about corporations that buy insurance for their workers. I'm talking about the American people.

You know, basically, all the people who are in charge... who want more from primary care, but aren't willing to give primary care more, or even help us do our jobs.

And as a profession (physicians, I mean), it's *embarrassing* that our specialty colleagues don't support what makes sense for everybody (i.e. good primary care) so that they can protect what is "theirs". It's an embarrassment.

Wagy questioned why should FM docs get tuition reimbursements when people like himself work hard to not do FM. It's the cliche anti-welfare argument. You know, the one that's rooted in rugged individualism where I busted my ass so I that I don't have to do primary care, so why should we be rewarding primary care...

I say that society should because we are doing good work. And people want primary care to be good. (They just don't want to sacrifice anything to get it... they want us to work like nuns & priests... out of the kindness of our souls... Well, there ain't enough of us to fill a Match, that's for damn sure).

Wagy's not bashing FM. Raising a debate? Certainly.

I have the coolest job in the world. It's not for everyone because we all have different definitions of cool. But, you can't begin to talk about how cool of a job FM to a med student career fair when the income gap is so large.

Smart med students are scared of looking stupid for picking a specialty that doesn't pay the best. Bottom line. People are afraid to do primary care.

You gotta be strong to do FM. You have to stand tall and stand proud. And believe in something to do this job. You can't be scared. You don't have time to be scared.

Insecure? Nope, not me. FM? Hell yea. I'd pick it again over and over. I for one just ain't scared.
 
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MedicineDoc:
“…I think what you see in reality from the subspecialists is fear that family practice docs will encroach on what they see as their territory which often times prompts bogus mudslinging. A lot of what subspecialists do different than primary care is of highly questionable benefit and when of benefit mostly not any different than that offered by FM docs when it comes to medical management. Not only do long time practicing physicians know this to be true but studies bear this out. Increased specialty care actually results in worse outcomes. “

Couldn’t disagree with you more. As a Rad Onc, I worry very little about primary care getting into my field at all. As for the benefit of what I do, it’s significantly different than what any other specialty offers and I have evidenced based medicine that shows a benefit to the treatments I offer.

By medical management I am talking nephrology, endocrine, noninvasive cardiology, pulmonololgy medical management as in noninvasive even though it is true that invasive procedures are often times of little benefit and done purely for the cash incentive such as cathing a patient that doesn't need a cath to make more money. I am not talking about clearly indicated procedures such as large volume CT guided thoracentesis for significant pleural effusions contributing to respiratory failure.
 
MedicineDoc:
“…I think what you see in reality from the subspecialists is fear that family practice docs will encroach on what they see as their territory which often times prompts bogus mudslinging. A lot of what subspecialists do different than primary care is of highly questionable benefit and when of benefit mostly not any different than that offered by FM docs when it comes to medical management. Not only do long time practicing physicians know this to be true but studies bear this out. Increased specialty care actually results in worse outcomes. “

Couldn’t disagree with you more. As a Rad Onc, I worry very little about primary care getting into my field at all. As for the benefit of what I do, it’s significantly different than what any other specialty offers and I have evidenced based medicine that shows a benefit to the treatments I offer.

By medical management I am talking nephrology, endocrine, noninvasive cardiology, pulmonololgy medical management as in noninvasive even though it is true that invasive procedures are often times of little benefit and done purely for the cash incentive such as cathing a patient that doesn't need a cath to make more money over and over again. I am not talking about clearly indicated procedures such as large volume CT guided thoracentesis for significant pleural effusions contributing to respiratory failure.
 
Low Budget:
“Wagy questioned why should FM docs get tuition reimbursements when people like himself work hard to not do FM. It's the cliche anti-welfare argument. You know, the one that's rooted in rugged individualism where I busted my ass so I that I don't have to do primary care, so why should we be rewarding primary care...

I say that society should because we are doing good work. And people want primary care to be good. (They just don't want to sacrifice anything to get it... they want us to work like nuns & priests... out of the kindness of our souls... Well, there ain't enough of us to fill a Match, that's for damn sure). “


First off, thank you for realizing that I was trying to raise a sincere question and not bash FM. With regards to this statement I have a question though. Doesn’t society want all physicians, primary care of specialists, to do good work? I have no problem with tuition reimbursement in medicine, what I do oppose is selecting out groups of physicians and saying they merit it more than others. I can understand reimbursement based on geographic locale to some degree but based on specialty? Are we saying FM is more important than oncology care, or reading films? All of these arenas are valuable pieces to the medicine puzzle, so why help one over the other. The other issue that people raise is salary. Well to be honest, I know FP’s who are business savy who make more than neurosurgeons and I know Radiation Oncologists making 150,000 a year. Specialty doesn’t always dictate salary.


However, I do think this is an enticing way to get the AMG’s back into FM and primary care in general.



EdibleEgg:

When I used the term undervalued/underpaid it may have been a bit of hyperbole. I know that I am going to paid well at the end of the day so underpaid is probably an exaggeration. Do I feel that my specialty deserves to make as much as ortho or neurosurgery, yes. It requires 5 years of training in clinical oncology, physics, and radiation biology which are applied daily to treatment paradigms and individual decisions. I don’t know of any other specialty that incorporates the basic sciences as much as we do into a clinical applicable way.

In terms of undervalued, it’s a frustration with that way that medicine in general view us. We often have patients come in for some cancer, ex. Prostate cancer. They will tell me well my PCP said surgery is better than radiation for prostate cancer. I sit there in shock and dismay at statements like this when it is pretty evident at this time that the 2 treatments are equivalent (granted no prospective trials but based on large retrospective work). Further, I get calls from PCP who have no idea what we do and simply will call and say can you radiate that? It’s a frustration that comes from the fact that I have a baseline working knowledge of primary care and subspecialty medicine but that they don’t seem to have one of what I do. That’s what I meant by undervalued.
 
In terms of undervalued, it's a frustration with that way that medicine in general view us. We often have patients come in for some cancer, ex. Prostate cancer. They will tell me well my PCP said surgery is better than radiation for prostate cancer. I sit there in shock and dismay at statements like this when it is pretty evident at this time that the 2 treatments are equivalent (granted no prospective trials but based on large retrospective work). Further, I get calls from PCP who have no idea what we do and simply will call and say can you radiate that? It's a frustration that comes from the fact that I have a baseline working knowledge of primary care and subspecialty medicine but that they don't seem to have one of what I do. That's what I meant by undervalued.

If the patient has cancer they have cancer and need an oncologist or other specialist to guide therapy. I sit in oncology conference weekly and listen to surgeons, pathologists, and oncologists argue over whether such and such radiation, surgery, chemo or whatever is indicated. With words like "inappropriate this and that" as they get their kicks out of tweaking each other citing ever changing protocols and studies. It is not the role of PCP's to guide treatment unless they desire to train themselves to accept the responsibility and take on that role. They can however decide they don't like you or elicit opinions about your skills and not refer anyone to you if you aren't helpful or deemed subpar unless you are the only show in town.
 
"In terms of undervalued, it’s a frustration with that way that medicine in general view us. We often have patients come in for some cancer, ex. Prostate cancer. They will tell me well my PCP said surgery is better than radiation for prostate cancer. I sit there in shock and dismay at statements like this when it is pretty evident at this time that the 2 treatments are equivalent (granted no prospective trials but based on large retrospective work). Further, I get calls from PCP who have no idea what we do and simply will call and say can you radiate that? It’s a frustration that comes from the fact that I have a baseline working knowledge of primary care and subspecialty medicine but that they don’t seem to have one of what I do. That’s what I meant by undervalued"

You are basically saying that you are smart and you work hard, so you should make as much money as those really well paid, smart, hard working people. I reviewed some average salary data (I will admit that this stuff is extremely variable). Rad onc salaries are about twice FP salaries, and ortho spine/neuro salaries are over twice rad onc salaries. Just for the discussion, I'll include my friend, who completed a PhD, a post doc, and an NIH fellowship. My salary is twice what she makes. To add a little more perspective, take the per capita GDP for the US, and set that at 1, PhD immunologist=2, FP=4, Rad Onc= 8, and ortho spine= 16. That's a nice little set of numbers (I had to do some rounding). You think you should make more not based on the value of your work, but the on the fact that there are guys with similar training in a similar field that make a lot more. If Neurosurgeons suddenly made 80,000 a year, what would your time and skill be worth then? I'm an AMG and I worked hard during residency. How do you justify that you'll likely make twice what I do when you complete your residency? If you are going to base your assumptions on Ortho spine salaries, how do you justify salaries 16 times the per capita GDP?
 
If the patient has cancer they have cancer and need an oncologist or other specialist to guide therapy. I sit in oncology conference weekly and listen to surgeons, pathologists, and oncologists argue over whether such and such radiation, surgery, chemo or whatever is indicated. With words like "inappropriate this and that" as they get their kicks out of tweaking each other citing ever changing protocols and studies. It is not the role of PCP's to guide treatment unless they desire to train themselves to accept the responsibility and take on that role. They can however decide they don't like you or elicit opinions about your skills and not refer anyone to you if you aren't helpful or deemed subpar unless you are the only show in town.


You seem to be missing the point of what I said. The PCP's job is to transition them to our care. Making statements like one therapy is better than the other without having that knowledge is what frustrates me. You are exactly right when you say that it is not the role of PCP's to guide treatment... the problem is they continue to do it. PCP's need to realize that when it comes to a disease like prostate cancer, it is not automatically consult urology. There are definitive treatments that offer equivalent survival with better side effects.
 
Pretty nice stats work there. What I am saying is that based on the value and the skill set that my specialty entail that I feel that I should be compensated equivalently to specialties like ortho spine or neurosurgery. It's nice to see that Rad Onc is 8 times but I see Ortho Spine at 16 times and think I should be at that level. Maybe that's me simply being a promoter of my own specialty but I think that it requires a skill set that no other specialty can match in terms on clinical knowledge requirements, basic science requirements, and technical skill all together. Sure some may have more of 1 but in with all 3 I think Rad Onc is tops. With regards to FP, it's difficult to say. FP's treat all conditions which requires a diverse knowledge but at what level of depth. I can't say I deserve more than a FP by 2 but I do feel that overall, with the fact that my specialty has a professional and technical component to reimbursement that it appropriately leads to higher salaries because FP's don't get involved in technical treatments like Rad Oncs do.

I think that its a bit difficult to look at salaries compared to the per capita GDP because that doesn't factor in education, and profession choice. Lebron James make god knows how many times the per capita GDP for putting a ball in a hoop.
 
Pretty nice stats work there. What I am saying is that based on the value and the skill set that my specialty entail that I feel that I should be compensated equivalently to specialties like ortho spine or neurosurgery. It's nice to see that Rad Onc is 8 times but I see Ortho Spine at 16 times and think I should be at that level. Maybe that's me simply being a promoter of my own specialty but I think that it requires a skill set that no other specialty can match in terms on clinical knowledge requirements, basic science requirements, and technical skill all together. Sure some may have more of 1 but in with all 3 I think Rad Onc is tops. With regards to FP, it's difficult to say. FP's treat all conditions which requires a diverse knowledge but at what level of depth. I can't say I deserve more than a FP by 2 but I do feel that overall, with the fact that my specialty has a professional and technical component to reimbursement that it appropriately leads to higher salaries because FP's don't get involved in technical treatments like Rad Oncs do.

I think that its a bit difficult to look at salaries compared to the per capita GDP because that doesn't factor in education, and profession choice. Lebron James make god knows how many times the per capita GDP for putting a ball in a hoop.

I am definitely for Rads Onc making less. I think that it should be outsourced, if at all possible.
Yes we should all support one another -- but I just do not see the value of Rads Onc salary wise.
I do not see the justification. It is a procedural specialty -- this is likely the reason behind the salary discrepancy. I strongly believe that things will catch up with this though. Times should, and will change.
How significantly does Rads Onc decrease mortality? I for one do have alot of respect for Rads Onc in general. However what are the beneficial effects of Rads Onc, as compared to other specialties?
How can Rads Onc contribute to the nationwide health care crisis?
Redistribute this money to Primary Care? Yes I am sure that you are wishing that I say this -- but it is not the answer either.
Overpaying Rads Onc, this is a problem in my opinion.
You can rant all you want about Primary Care, but I do not believe in this salary discrepancy.
I believe that Primary Care is significantly underpaid, and undervalued.
Ortho Spine and Neurosurgery work significantly harder than I do, even if I see a higher volume of patients. My malpractice is also significantly lower, and lifestyle more manageable. It is true that the money is the best in Ortho and Neurosurgery - but that is if you can enjoy the lifestyle, and truly enjoy the work.
The level of depth, with which I treat patients is deep. CHF exacerbation, COPD, at times managing ventilators, several several other life sustaining interventions, including pressor support. I would say that this is a deep depth level of work.
I absolutely love what I do.
I see very little justification to a Rads Onc salary -- comparatively to Primary Care in general.
Can you have a better outcome with Radiation therapy, vs Surgery? Absolutely. However this still does not justify the salary discrepancy.
My diagnostic and treatment skills, are responsible for life or death on a daily basis -- and I do mean literally life or death. What more level of 'depth' do you need than that?? 🙄
I have no problems at all whatsoever with what I do -- and do not gripe about getting paid more, or getting more respect, because respect is absolutely plentiful. Couldn't be better actually.
Somebody that thinks that they are underpaid, and others are not as important -- that is the classic definition of insecurity. I certainly could never imagine myself walking around and wasting my time thinking of this.
In general I would say that Primary Care needs a significant overhaul, and a place higher up in the salary line.
Like it or not, it is coming.
Primary Care improves mortality. It has economic, as well as significant health benefits -- and improves mortality and longevity. You can do nothing about it.
Primary Care money is coming.
 
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Wagy,

I appreciate that you want to make a lot of money, me too. I have no doubts that rad onc is a difficult field that can benefit patient care. However, I think you are missing one of my major points. You say that the breadth of knowledge and skill you (will) possess and the value you bring to patient care is on par with neurosurgery. I don't agree, (do you know how much those guys work? Does rad onc even take call?), but for the sake of arguement, let's say that's true. You deserve just as much as they do. Now how do you justify THAT salary? You're not providing any objective way to value what you do. I seriously doubt that your average neurosurgeon accounts for an improvement of times as many quality adjusted life years as a PCP. I included my PhD friend because I'm pretty sure she is just as smart, works just as hard, and has a similar level of skill as you (or at least the average radiation oncologist). How do you justify that you already make four times (and feel that you deserve eight times) as much as she does?

If my father had prostate CA and needed to radiation to survive, then my means would be the only limit to what I would pay to make that happen. However, there are other options (which may or may not be better), and if his primary care provider never took the time to discuss prostate cancer screening, it would be a non-issue. I'm sorry, but just saying rad onc is hard is not going to convince me.

By the way, I agree that all other things being equal, you should make more money than I do. It's the scale of the difference that I have problems with.

I appreciate the discussion.
 
Wagy,

I appreciate that you want to make a lot of money, me too. I have no doubts that rad onc is a difficult field that can benefit patient care. However, I think you are missing one of my major points. You say that the breadth of knowledge and skill you (will) possess and the value you bring to patient care is on par with neurosurgery. I don't agree, (do you know how much those guys work? Does rad onc even take call?), but for the sake of arguement, let's say that's true. You deserve just as much as they do. Now how do you justify THAT salary? You're not providing any objective way to value what you do. I seriously doubt that your average neurosurgeon accounts for an improvement of times as many quality adjusted life years as a PCP. I included my PhD friend because I'm pretty sure she is just as smart, works just as hard, and has a similar level of skill as you (or at least the average radiation oncologist). How do you justify that you already make four times (and feel that you deserve eight times) as much as she does?

If my father had prostate CA and needed to radiation to survive, then my means would be the only limit to what I would pay to make that happen. However, there are other options (which may or may not be better), and if his primary care provider never took the time to discuss prostate cancer screening, it would be a non-issue. I'm sorry, but just saying rad onc is hard is not going to convince me.

By the way, I agree that all other things being equal, you should make more money than I do. It's the scale of the difference that I have problems with.

I appreciate the discussion.

Your first statement speaks to your lack of knowledge in the field. Rad Onc incorporates clinical oncology, a significant knowledge regarding each organ site of disease, extensive anatomy for planning, and in depth physics and radiobiology. As someone who was interested in neurosurgery and who has a few friends that are neurosurgery residents I can tell you that amount of knowledge required for Rad Onc is without a doubt more. Do I work equal or more hours, hell no (yes I do take call but from home). The hours put in by neurosurgery residents and even attendings is crazy. But medicine has never been a field that pays by the hour but by the volume you see and the procedures you do. You like to bring your PhD friend into the argument but it’s difficult to factor her in…she’s not in clinical medicine and so her salary is not defined by office visits and procedures like yours, mine and the neurosurgeon’s are.
With regards to the objective value, I’m not going to sit here and try to spout off about how great what I do is. The proof is in the literature. There are prospective, randomized clinical trials that have demonstrated survival benefits for cancers that we treat. You name a cancer that radiation oncologists treat and I can provide the literature for the most part. Cancers such as inoperable NSCLC with stage IIIA or B disease now have the potential for cure with the advent of dose escalation in radiation therapy combined with chemotherapy. From breast cancer and prostate cancer (the top cancers in terms of incidence) to lung cancer (leader in cancer mortatlity) radiation has been shown to provide a benefit either in overall survival or local control
 

Andwhat….convinced I’m not a troll so you decided to get back into the argument? It’s funny you talk about Rad Onc being outsourced…do you not realize that it’s not radiology. You call it a procedural specialty, if you had any idea about the specialty rather than sitting here bagging it you would realize it’s a pretty good combination of clinical and procedural medicine. I see patients in a clinic, discuss therapeutic interventions with them, and decide on what is most appropriate based on a multitude of factors (not unlike you). I then get involved in the technical component of planning the treatment. In some cases such as brachytherapy, I am involved in the delivery of treatment by placing sources so to deliver appropriate doses while sparing normal tissues. Not sure how one can outsource that.

With regards to the benefit of radiation in general, please see my note to edibleegg. Cancer is one of the leading causes of mortality and radiation, alone or in combination with adjuvant therapies, has been shown to improve overall survival, local control, or disease free survival in a large number of cancers. Decreasing mortality, I think so. Why don’t you talk to my patient with Stage III B Lung Cancer alive 4 years out and tell him my therapy wasn’t saving lives. He might beg to differ. The justification for my salary is justified when you look at the outcomes. You talk about saving lives daily, so do we. You may do it one Nitro drip at a time and I’ll do it my way. You say you go deep into your care…I would hope any physician worth is salt, in any specialty does that. That’s not something to shout from the rooftops; that comes with being a physician in my opinion.

You talk about radiation oncology in the national health care crisis…wait a few years and see what happens. With the economy being where it is and patients forgoing screening and doctors visits we are going to see a stage migration in cancer. Who are you going to get to help your cancer patients with intractable pain from bone mets or to prevent neurological progression for brain mets. Whether you like it or not, we are a necessity in medicine, not a add on.

You can sit there and complain about primary care salaries but the truth is they are highly variable. I know of PCP salaries that will far exceed my salary and I know of those that will likely not make a quarter of what I do. It’s all about choices. I never once said other were less important as you have implied. I simply made a statement about salaries compared to others in a hope to engage in discussion. You seem hell bent on trying to come after me.

I hope that a change does come for primary care…I just don’t think it should come from cutting back on subspecialty reimbursement.
 
I hope that a change does come for primary care…I just don't think it should come from cutting back on subspecialty reimbursement.

Regardless, that's probably what's going to happen.

You could always set up one of those cash-only retainer Rad-Onc practices. 😉
 
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Your first statement speaks to your lack of knowledge in the field. Rad Onc incorporates clinical oncology, a significant knowledge regarding each organ site of disease, extensive anatomy for planning, and in depth physics and radiobiology. As someone who was interested in neurosurgery and who has a few friends that are neurosurgery residents I can tell you that amount of knowledge required for Rad Onc is without a doubt more. Do I work equal or more hours, hell no (yes I do take call but from home). The hours put in by neurosurgery residents and even attendings is crazy. But medicine has never been a field that pays by the hour but by the volume you see and the procedures you do. You like to bring your PhD friend into the argument but it’s difficult to factor her in…she’s not in clinical medicine and so her salary is not defined by office visits and procedures like yours, mine and the neurosurgeon’s are.
With regards to the objective value, I’m not going to sit here and try to spout off about how great what I do is. The proof is in the literature. There are prospective, randomized clinical trials that have demonstrated survival benefits for cancers that we treat. You name a cancer that radiation oncologists treat and I can provide the literature for the most part. Cancers such as inoperable NSCLC with stage IIIA or B disease now have the potential for cure with the advent of dose escalation in radiation therapy combined with chemotherapy. From breast cancer and prostate cancer (the top cancers in terms of incidence) to lung cancer (leader in cancer mortatlity) radiation has been shown to provide a benefit either in overall survival or local control

OK, I'm confused. Which statement shows my lack of knowledge? The one where I said you want to make a lot of money, or the one where I said Rad Onc is a difficult field that can benefit patient care?

I never said you know possess less knowledge than a neurosurgeon. It would be extremely difficult to compare. However, the residency is two years longer and in the real world they work many, many more hours (you said yourself that you are in a lifestyle speciality). It may not mean much to you, but having lived it, brutal call should be well compensated. That alone is enough to justify more pay in my book. If intellectual complexity matters so much, then why do gastroenterologists make so much more than endocrinologists? Your time is valuable, but I still don't see why it's FOUR times more valuable than mine.
 
OK, I'm confused. Which statement shows my lack of knowledge? The one where I said you want to make a lot of money, or the one where I said Rad Onc is a difficult field that can benefit patient care?

I never said you know possess less knowledge than a neurosurgeon. It would be extremely difficult to compare. However, the residency is two years longer and in the real world they work many, many more hours (you said yourself that you are in a lifestyle speciality). It may not mean much to you, but having lived it, brutal call should be well compensated. That alone is enough to justify more pay in my book. If intellectual complexity matters so much, then why do gastroenterologists make so much more than endocrinologists? Your time is valuable, but I still don't see why it's FOUR times more valuable than mine.


my rationale is, why argue. Some points just never ever stick. The character will just continue to say "I am underpaid, and I get paid more than you, because I am smarter than you"
It is limitless, like an animal chasing it's tail. Is it worth it to say STOP! Not for me, it is rather entertaining honestly. :laugh: Who in their right mind behaves like this?
Truth is, the more you try and find a meaningful justification, and rationale for this sort of behavior, the more this person will argue the exact same unvalidated responses. It is pointless.
Is it really worth it for me, to state
"The patient's family thanked me, because I intubated the mother, put her on pressors, put her on Antibiotics, and saved her life -- therefore I should get paid more than I already do. Also I am alot smarter than the Pediatrician down the street, because I work with more depth and expertise. Don't let it fool you though, like I said I should be making alot more money!"
Would I walk around bragging about this?? It is complete absurdity. Completely and utterly ridiculous.
Thank goodness this sort of behavior is NOT coming from Primary Care. That is the plus point here.
We are feeding the troll. I highly doubt the validity of wagy.
 
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In canada it is not unusual for FP's to bill $250-400k at a per case
reimbursement much lower than in the US. The differences in net income compared to the states is much higher volumes per MD, lower cost of billing/collections (less than 3% as the Govt is a much better payor than insurance companies) and lower malpractice rates.

A FP working 4 days weekly can net over $150 k with no call, or over $300k
with OB/Emerg etc. And per case reimbursement will likely rise over the next few years.

If US goes even into partial nationalization, FP will be winners, some specialties will pay the price.
 
You gotta be strong to do FM. You have to stand tall and stand proud. And believe in something to do this job. You can't be scared. You don't have time to be scared.

Insecure? Nope, not me. FM? Hell yea. I'd pick it again over and over. I for one just ain't scared.

I loved this post. It's so true.

Talking about insecurities... Why do the Rad Oncs and other specialists spend so much time here trying to convince FP's what a poor choice they did? What are they trying to prove and to whom?
 
You gotta be strong to do FM. You have to stand tall and stand proud. And believe in something to do this job. You can't be scared. You don't have time to be scared.

Insecure? Nope, not me. FM? Hell yea. I'd pick it again over and over. I for one just ain't scared.

pr1034638.jpg


If Chuck Norris was a physician, he'd be a Family Doc.
 
I loved this post. It's so true.

Talking about insecurities... Why do the Rad Oncs and other specialists spend so much time here trying to convince FP's what a poor choice they did? What are they trying to prove and to whom?

Validity issues that is why --These are very clearly undergrad or med students, thinking of going into Rads Onc, or other specialties. I hesitate to go even as far as med students.
 
Validity issues that is why --These are very clearly undergrad or med students, thinking of going into Rads Onc, or other specialties. I hesitate to go even as far as med students.

You have to be kidding me...do the simple thing and look back at my previous posts beyond this threa...you will see that yes, I am a resident, and yes I am in Rad Onc, hell it even lists what hospital I am currently doing my residency at. Currently finishing up my PGY-2 year. Seriously, if you don't like what someone has to say that's fine but to continually forward the notion that they are not who they say they are is absurd. I dont know what credentialing you went through to get certified as the overdefensive FP on this board but you are acting like an imbicile by repeatedly challenging who I am. Maybe you're the one with issues, an FP who gets his rocks off by going after the Rad Oncs cuz you wish you could make the money we do working the hours we do. Deal with it.
 
You have to be kidding me...do the simple thing and look back at my previous posts beyond this threa...you will see that yes, I am a resident, and yes I am in Rad Onc, hell it even lists what hospital I am currently doing my residency at. Currently finishing up my PGY-2 year. Seriously, if you don't like what someone has to say that's fine but to continually forward the notion that they are not who they say they are is absurd. I dont know what credentialing you went through to get certified as the overdefensive FP on this board but you are acting like an imbicile by repeatedly challenging who I am. Maybe you're the one with issues, an FP who gets his rocks off by going after the Rad Oncs cuz you wish you could make the money we do working the hours we do. Deal with it.


ha ha ha :laugh::laugh::laugh: so then WHO are you? Of course you can post any random website of any random residency program.
Are you in high school?
Please stick to the topic of the forum, without the unnecessary nonsense. I will not continue youre trend of name calling and personal insults.

Stop the name calling also. If you are not comfortable discussing issues on a professional board, then do not post here. It is not our fault, that you cannot get into medical school.
If you are a valid poster, then you will have no probs posting who you are. Otherwise you are a LIAR. A liar is someone that doesn't tell the truth. Deceptive fabrication. I was correct to begin with -- the Troll!
For readers though, comparatively, Rads Onc for instance makes about $280-310,000 in my area. This is not a whole lot more than what I make, if I decided to work full time.
I do not work full time. I decide to take two weeks off per month. I need my time off -- to travel, be with my family. I don't want to work harder -- if I did work more, I would be near, or even above that range myself. Money isn't everything. A few of my coworkers, and friends working as Hospitalists, do 36 hour shifts -- and more nights, hence make even more than that. We are talking up to $500 K per year. I wouldn't do it though.
Again, it is not about money -- it is lifestyle. I love my lifestyle, and this poster aka troll has a serious problem with that.
 
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ha ha ha :laugh::laugh::laugh: so then WHO are you? Of course you can post any random website of any random residency program.
Are you in high school?
Please stick to the topic of the forum, without the unnecessary nonsense. I will not continue youre trend of name calling and personal insults.

Stop the name calling also. If you are not comfortable discussing issues on a professional board, then do not post here. It is not our fault, that you cannot get into medical school.
If you are a valid poster, then you will have no probs posting who you are. Otherwise you are a LIAR. A liar is someone that doesn't tell the truth. Deceptive fabrication. I was correct to begin with -- the Troll!
For readers though, comparatively, Rads Onc for instance makes about $280-310,000 in my area. This is not a whole lot more than what I make, if I decided to work full time.
I do not work full time. I decide to take two weeks off per month. I need my time off -- to travel, be with my family. I don't want to work harder -- if I did work more, I would be near, or even above that range myself. Money isn't everything. A few of my coworkers, and friends working as Hospitalists, do 36 hour shifts -- and more nights, hence make even more than that. We are talking up to $500 K per year. I wouldn't do it though.
Again, it is not about money -- it is lifestyle. I love my lifestyle, and this poster aka troll has a serious problem with that.

I just had to jump in here and say that for someone saying to act professionally and not name call, you are doing a splendid job of setting an example.
 
ha ha ha :laugh::laugh::laugh: so then WHO are you? Of course you can post any random website of any random residency program.
Are you in high school?
Please stick to the topic of the forum, without the unnecessary nonsense. I will not continue youre trend of name calling and personal insults.

Stop the name calling also. If you are not comfortable discussing issues on a professional board, then do not post here. It is not our fault, that you cannot get into medical school.
If you are a valid poster, then you will have no probs posting who you are. Otherwise you are a LIAR. A liar is someone that doesn't tell the truth. Deceptive fabrication. I was correct to begin with -- the Troll!
For readers though, comparatively, Rads Onc for instance makes about $280-310,000 in my area. This is not a whole lot more than what I make, if I decided to work full time.
I do not work full time. I decide to take two weeks off per month. I need my time off -- to travel, be with my family. I don't want to work harder -- if I did work more, I would be near, or even above that range myself. Money isn't everything. A few of my coworkers, and friends working as Hospitalists, do 36 hour shifts -- and more nights, hence make even more than that. We are talking up to $500 K per year. I wouldn't do it though.
Again, it is not about money -- it is lifestyle. I love my lifestyle, and this poster aka troll has a serious problem with that.

Let me first say I'm very happy for you. (And your coworkers/friends)

But you guys are outliers.

If hospitalists were easily reaching $500K a year, we wouldn't be seeing the trends reported in the original post.
 
Let me first say I'm very happy for you. (And your coworkers/friends)

But you guys are outliers.

If hospitalists were easily reaching $500K a year, we wouldn't be seeing the trends reported in the original post.

Didn't say easily chief -- pay better attention to detail and re-read. Read, THINK, and then reply. Stop misconstruing things intentionally.
Thank you for being happy for me!! Nobody "easily" makes $500K a year in medicine.
 
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Didn't say easily chief -- pay better attention to detail and re-read. Read, THINK, and then reply. Stop misconstruing things intentionally.
Thank you for being happy for me!! Nobody "easily" makes $500K a year in medicine.

Your constant defensiveness and belittling of others speaks volumes as to how "happy" you really are with your chosen profession.

👎
 
Your constant defensiveness and belittling of others speaks volumes as to how "happy" you really are with your chosen profession.

👎

no no no not defensive, or belittle others, and extremely happy with my career. Show me where I 'belittled' anyone. Grow up dude. Stop looking for justification for you're inappropriateness and insecurity -- like I said it is nothing short of hilarious :laugh:
Now stick to the topic please no more mudslinging. Like I stated, constantly misconstruing things. What do you get out of it exactly? Feeding the troll, is my only wrongdoing here.

overdefensive FP on this board but you are acting like an imbicile by repeatedly challenging who I am. Maybe you're the one with issues, an FP who gets his rocks off by going after the Rad Oncs cuz you wish you could make the money we do working the hours we do. Deal with it.
This right here is absurdity.

talk about insecurity issues. Wow! I am 'going after' someone. Amazing!! I really need to stop replying to this though.
I am replying to undergrad / possibly even medical students. Why am I doing that again?
You guys are somehow stating that I should be "ashamed" of my money and lifestyle???? Are you thinking clearly?????
 
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Yes, you do.

You're right Blue.
I could switch into a specialty any time that I want to currently, but why would I want to do something for the rest of my life that I would not enjoy? The money is not at all whatsoever significantly different. Hospitalist medicine is amazing. The challenges, lifestyle are next to unbeatable in my opinion.
Family Medicine outpatient is fun also. 👍
 
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