2010+recent grads+loans

[BlacKAT33]

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So in the Pre-Vet forum there is a thread about student loans. One recent graduate responded and basically said that (paraphrasing) "going to vet school knowing you will have 200k+ loans is stupid and irresponsible"

I decided to post a new thread instead of read old ones about loans because with the recent recession I'm not sure if things have changed.

Recent grads or people who know recent grads:
How are you doing with paying off loans?
Are you thinking about starting a family/have a family?
Is the debt more than you can handle?
Do you regret going to a school that will put you with 200k+ loans to pay off?
Do you find the job market bad for recent grads now?
finally, do you know anyone living in their car???? (this is super extreme, but it is what the recent grad in the pre-vet forum said)

thanks!

 

[BenjisMomma]

BlacKat: Thanks for bringing this over. So excited to see what people will say...and a bit nervous!

 

[HopefulAg]

Do you regret going to a school that will put you with 200k+ loans to pay off?

This is the one I'm most interested in as any OOS school will put me into that situation. Unfortunately the bad part is that you can't compare the education you received at the $200k school vs a cheaper (in-state likely) school as you didn't go through both programs.

 

[sumstorm]

This is the one I'm most interested in as any OOS school will put me into that situation. Unfortunately the bad part is that you can't compare the education you received at the $200k school vs a cheaper (in-state likely) school as you didn't go through both programs.

While you can't compare IS vs OOS subjectively because attendance at both at the same time is impossible, I believe every accredited vet school and many unaccredited vet schools are excellent in terms of the education we will receive. I personally don't believe cost of a vet education is at all related to the quality of education (we are ranked 4th, with cheapest IS, ability to get IS after FY for OOS students, and I think rankings are subective as well.)

 

[Jochebed]

gone

 

[BlacKAT33]

I'm not sure where this "rank" talk started from because I'm pretty sure I didnt mention that in my post. I agree that I have heard all accredited vet schools are good and it doesn't matter the "rank". IF i got into the two schools I am applying to there are more personal reasons/environmental reasons to decide between them not just their rank.

My IS schools is cheaper but is farther away from my bf AND parents (big deal because all other relatives are mostly living overseas or midwest so im very close with my parents...and i have no siblings), it is also far away from city life which I am used to.

My OOS school is more expensive (a lot) but it is a 2 hr drive away from family and bf, or a train ride away. Very convenient. especially when i have breakdowns during the year "omgg i cant do it" when i just need a self esteem boost. It is also in the city which i love, and honestly, i really need in order to stay sane.

I don't want to go into more personal reasons, but since my OOS has much more positives for me except the high tuition I would like to know about how people are doing with working off the debt. I know the perfect "fit" for me would be my OOS school but i'm not sure if all of the pros for it are still heavy enough to weigh out the tuition rates.

 

[sumstorm]

can't compare the education you received at the $200k school vs a cheaper (in-state likely) school

The 'rank' came from this statement. I read 'compare edcation' as 'quality of education.' So wasn't responding to what you said, but to what else was said.

 

[BlacKAT33]

The 'rank' came from this statement. I read 'compare edcation' as 'quality of education.' So wasn't responding to what you said, but to what else was said.

oh ok 🙁 seems no one has any real life experience to talk about. maybe there will be a post-grad at penn during the interview day who i can ask. Although the answers that have accumulated on the pre-vet forum have really helped!

 

[chris03333]

So in the Pre-Vet forum there is a thread about student loans. One recent graduate responded and basically said that (paraphrasing) "going to vet school knowing you will have 200k+ loans is stupid and irresponsible"

I decided to post a new thread instead of read old ones about loans because with the recent recession I'm not sure if things have changed.

Recent grads or people who know recent grads:
How are you doing with paying off loans? not paying them currently (resident salary make me only able to pay off the non federals)
Are you thinking about starting a family/have a family? No, but that is because I have never wanted a baby. I am married and consider my husband and my pets my family, but we have been married for 8 years
Is the debt more than you can handle? It might be if I can not find a job
Do you regret going to a school that will put you with 200k+ loans to pay off?YES!!!!
Do you find the job market bad for recent grads now? YES!
finally, do you know anyone living in their car???? No(this is super extreme, but it is what the recent grad in the pre-vet forum said)

thanks!

Alright I am an '07 grad, but will not get my first "real" job until I finish my residency this June.

 

[Pandacinny]

I'm not sure where this "rank" talk started from because I'm pretty sure I didnt mention that in my post. I agree that I have heard all accredited vet schools are good and it doesn't matter the "rank". IF i got into the two schools I am applying to there are more personal reasons/environmental reasons to decide between them not just their rank.

My IS schools is cheaper but is farther away from my bf AND parents (big deal because all other relatives are mostly living overseas or midwest so im very close with my parents...and i have no siblings), it is also far away from city life which I am used to.

My OOS school is more expensive (a lot) but it is a 2 hr drive away from family and bf, or a train ride away. Very convenient. especially when i have breakdowns during the year "omgg i cant do it" when i just need a self esteem boost. It is also in the city which i love, and honestly, i really need in order to stay sane.

I don't want to go into more personal reasons, but since my OOS has much more positives for me except the high tuition I would like to know about how people are doing with working off the debt. I know the perfect "fit" for me would be my OOS school but i'm not sure if all of the pros for it are still heavy enough to weigh out the tuition rates.

BlackKat, I had many similar concerns with heading to VMRCVM from the Baltimore area. You're right, VMRCVM IS in kind of a sucky area if you're used to being in a city and it IS difficult to be so far from my family (especially my sister with whom I am very close.) It really isn't as big of a deal as I thought it would be, though. I honestly don't think I'd visit my family any more if they lived closer - I just don't have the time! Also, Blacksburg/Chrisrtiansburg does have pretty much everything I need (besides a Trader Joe's) and I've gotten really used to living there and don't dislike it. Again, I wouldn't be able to go anywhere/do anything more even if I DID live in MD - there's just no time!

It did take me some time to adjust and I know it's going to be a little hard for me going back now that break is over. I definitely have days where I want to pack up and head home so that I can be back with my friends. I have a pretty tight group of friends here at home and I really count on them for a lot of support, so it's hard to be without them. However, they really try to facilitate making friends during orientation and I think that most everyone has found a group of people to hang out with - including me. I think, even though adjusting was a little hard for me, I'm feeling good about attending school at VMRCVM and happy with my life in Blacksburg.

Personally, I wouldn't trade the extra money for Penn for being closer to my family and friends and still not having time to see them. Of course, you need to make the best decision for you and that could be either school. Something you might do is try to calculate exactly what your debt will be at either school and try to figure out what your monthly loan payments would be at both. That might help make the numbers seem more real so that you can see if it really is feasible/worth it to go OOS.

 

[InfiniVet]

I'm a third year but I'm already keeping my sights open for a job after graduation. I will graduate and go straight to work - no internship/residency.
I've already had a job offer - 80% SA 20% Exotics DVM in a 3 doctor practice. $55k/yr in Texas + production. It would average out to be $65k/yr for my first year and increase after that.
I've found the debt load to be manageable, most job offers adequate salary, and the hours & location flexible. (You have to customize your contract though). This is probably because I'm not doing an ultra specific specialty like chris03333 though 🙂

My husband is in medical school and we plan on having kids exactly one year after I graduate vet school.

I don't regret going to vet school at all. But then again I was one of the ones who was set on vet school since I was 8 years old. Greatest experience of my life & I love it & will be sad to graduate!

No, no one in my class is starving poor living out of their car. I know a few folks who whine about the debt and loans, but they never go without.

 

[Jochebed]

gone

 

[BlacKAT33]

wow i'm gone for a couple hours and i return to find AMAZING RESPONSES!!
thanks so much jochebed, infinivet, pandacinny, and chris!!! everyone is right, i know four yrs isnt THAT long and when i think about how much longer ill be paying off the debt its like woah! THANKS EVERYONE!!! so helpful 😀 still gotta look up the site you posted jochebed, thanks!

 

[alliecat44]

Some things to look at and ponder:
There is a survey published in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association every year that tracks the average starting pay of that year's graduating class of veterinarians. So the most recent publication was for 2009 grads. Find this, and read it.

this is the survey I posted in my reply to your other thread. Here's my post in its entirety:


There's a more recent survey. Here's a summary: http://www.avma.org/press/releases/0...ies_survey.asp

And here's a relevant excerpt:

"According to the survey results, 88.6 percent of students had debt at the time of their graduation from veterinary school, and all but 9.6 percent of that debt was incurred while the students were in veterinary school. Average debt increased 8.5 percent between 2008 and 2009, with student debt averaging $129,976 in 2009, compared with $119,803 in 2008. Nearly a third of the students had an average debt above $150,000."

Let's read that again: NEARLY A THIRD of veterinary students graduate with debt ABOVE $150,000.

And "When it comes to salaries for these new hires, the average starting salary among all employer types combined increased 0.7 percent, from $48,328 in 2008 to $48,684 in 2009. Excluding those who continued their education through advanced study, the average starting salary increased 5.2 percent, from $61,633 in 2008 to $64,826 in 2009."

So, basic math: debt is increasing at a rate faster than salaries.

People are graduating from veterinary schools where their tuition went up 12.5% PER YEAR during the four years they were there. Talk about blowing all your projected budgeting prior to vet school out the window.

For me, I had to take out $50K first year, $55K second year, and now $60K third year. Just to make ends meet.

Student debt is a tremendous problem. Ignoring it will not make it go away. There are many, many facets to the situation--and a big one is ever-decreasing government funding for veterinary schools--but it is a REAL problem and, IMHO, a very viable reason for someone to turn away from veterinary school and towards another profession.

 

[dyachei]

Also, don't forget when calculating costs that if you're at school during the summer for clinics, they will charge you for the summer semester

 

[Ben and Me]

http://cvm.ncsu.edu/studentservices/documents/DVM2009ApplicantReviewSessionWeb.pdf

Check out the slide entitled "Resident GPA - Range Scores" - You'll see that there was only 1 accepted in state applicant that denied their seat (I assume they went OOS, but who knows).

Just food for thought.

 

[InfiniVet]

Trying to provide other perspectives:

Keep in mind that your salary will go up as well.
Your pay is typically 25% of production, so more money for the business = more money for you.
You have to work out a personal budget in vet school in order to have a basis for negotiating your salary, and pay increases.

One friend of mine started out her first year at $65,000 and the next year made $85,000. Within 4 years she was in a position to take over the clinic.

Also take into consideration scholarships and awards during school. Another friend of mine won close to $30,000 in scholarships.

 

[OliveOyl]

I am glad to see all of these posts concerning costs. I am a little curious though as to why as in IS one must still take out approx. $50K. The tuition at LSU is currently about $14K a year plus books. I understand that one must live, eat, etc., but can one get by one say $25-35K a year if their spouse can support the housing costs and some other costs? Any of you married that are able to take out less b/c of a spouse being able to provide more financial support?

 

[parietal]

I am a little curious though as to why as in IS one must still take out approx. $50K. The tuition at LSU is currently about $14K a year plus books.

You're lucky. Tuition at my in-state school is $25K before fees, insurance or housing/living costs. Many schools cost even more. Pennsylvania's in-state tuition is almost $34K. Tufts's is more than $36K. These regions also have high cost of living.

Just because you're in a state with reasonable tuition doesn't mean everyone is.

 

[OliveOyl]

You're lucky. Tuition at my in-state school is $25K before fees, insurance or housing/living costs. Many schools cost even more. Pennsylvania's in-state tuition is almost $34K. Tufts's is more than $36K. These regions also have high cost of living.

Just because you're in a state with reasonable tuition doesn't mean everyone is.

I am under no illusions that all schools have the same tuition rates and am aware that there are schools with higher rates, I was just curious if some are able to take out amounts that are really close to their tuition rates and still make ends meet. Sorry, I didn't phrase the question the way that I intended it. So, can one get by on say $10K-15K over the cost of their tuition?

 

[parietal]

So, can one get by on say $10K-15K over the cost of their tuition?

I think that is also going to depend entirely on your region and your personal circumstances. If you have a budget now, that's probably a very good place to start. Good for you if you can live on $10k, including insurance, school fees, transportation, etc. I know many people -- especially those without working spouses and with kids, mortgages, etc. -- cannot.

If you don't have budget, there are many budget planing tools on the web that can help. This looks like a pretty good one: http://www.accessgroup.org/calculators/in_schlbud.htm

 

[sumstorm]

Any of you married that are able to take out less b/c of a spouse being able to provide more financial support?

Actually, I would probably take out less if we weren't married. Because we are married and had established a life already (had a home and mortgage and vehicles and pets) and because my husband can't relocate easily in this economy, we are supporting 2 households, frequent travel, pets, and vehicles. If I wasn't married, I wouldn't have the second house, the additional pets, or the car; I would have rented a condo a mile or two from the school, used my bike more, and eliminated my car. I also wouldn't have to worry about anyone else's health care. I can live dirt cheap, and while I am ok askign my husband to do without some luxuries like TV, gym memberships, fewer meals out etc, I am not ok asking him to live on beans and rice, or buy his clothes at Goodwill. Now, if he wasn't established in his career, or could relocate easier, it might be cheaper for us.... so the answer is simply; it depends on more than just marriage.

 

[mochavet]

Hi all! I just attended a lecture at the NAVC that addressed all of this. They put up some pretty daunting statistics. For the 2009 graduates the average debt load was $129,976 and the average starting salary for those graduates was $65,185. Since 1983, salaries have increased by 25% and student loan debt has increased by 173%. That is a huge difference. Putting that in perspective: if you graduate with $250,000 debt and take 25 years to pay it off with a monthly payment of $1700, you would need a salary of $208,000 to make that happen.

The advice they were giving was to negotiate what you want with your potential employer. If you don't ask you won't get. They also highly discouraged doing an internship due to the low salary of an internship and the amount of interest you'd incur during that year on your loans. Also, most everyone suggested thinking about owning your own practice. If you can own a practice within 5 years of graduating then you will be fine (according to the panel).

I just thought I'd share this with you all. Hopefully they will publish this data soon. As much doom and gloom as it sounds, it wasn't all negative. There is hope and I would highly recommend joining your school's VBMA. They can help you with the business and money side of things.

 

[OliveOyl]

I think that is also going to depend entirely on your region and your personal circumstances. If you have a budget now, that's probably a very good place to start. Good for you if you can live on $10k, including insurance, school fees, transportation, etc. I know many people -- especially those without working spouses and with kids, mortgages, etc. -- cannot.

If you don't have budget, there are many budget planing tools on the web that can help. This looks like a pretty good one: http://www.accessgroup.org/calculators/in_schlbud.htm

Thank you parietal. That calculator was great. It helped me figure things out a little better for my situation!

 

[parietal]

Since 1983, salaries have increased by 25% and student loan debt has increased by 173%. That is a huge difference. Putting that in perspective: if you graduate with $250,000 debt and take 25 years to pay it off with a monthly payment of $1700, you would need a salary of $208,000 to make that happen. ...They also highly discouraged doing an internship due to the low salary of an internship and the amount of interest you'd incur during that year on your loans. Also, most everyone suggested thinking about owning your own practice. If you can own a practice within 5 years of graduating then you will be fine (according to the panel).

Thanks for the information! Lots to think about.

Thank you parietal. That calculator was great. It helped me figure things out a little better for my situation!

Happy to help! Good luck. 🙂

 

[CBRGrl]

I am glad to see all of these posts concerning costs. I am a little curious though as to why as in IS one must still take out approx. $50K. The tuition at LSU is currently about $14K a year plus books. I understand that one must live, eat, etc., but can one get by one say $25-35K a year if their spouse can support the housing costs and some other costs? Any of you married that are able to take out less b/c of a spouse being able to provide more financial support?

I am attending my IS school while my husband works as an engineer. I am fortunate enough that I only need to take the exact amount of loans I need to cover my tuition, fees, and books...because we can rely on his income for other things, like the mortgage, dog food, etc. However, even though his job pays our daily bills (and we live fairly modestly...ie no car loans, etc), my tuition continues to go up every year and the fees are starting to get RIDICULOUS.

This year tuition and fees added up to $18,889 for in state (last year it was ~$14K). I wasn't even able to take out the entire amount in subsidized loans...which means I will earn interest on that debt for all four years of my DVM. That definitely adds up so you should talk to your school's financial aid office and find out what types of aid they offer.

There are also other costs that you dont think of when you're trying to break down the numbers. Some schools require that you carry your own health insurance or use the health insurance through the school. This will tack on another $2k (thats how much it is here). You may also be required to get a rabies vaccine, which runs ~$600. Books will cost you anywhere from $200 (if you're like me and ONLY buy the notes) to $1,100 per semester.

There were several people in our class this year that are OOS and their moving costs alone were crazy (plane tickets, damage deposits, first/last month's rent, moving truck...etc). Our school won't allow you to take out additional loans to cover these costs (Im not sure about other schools) so there were a lot of people here who had to borrow money from family to make the transition.

I guess my 2c is to take a look at the numbers realistically and not just look at tuition. There are a lot of other costs associated with chosing a school, so do your homework and, at the end of the day, choose the school that will make you the happiest....just make sure you're fully aware of what you're getting yourself into. 😀

 

[OliveOyl]

I am attending my IS school while my husband works as an engineer. I am fortunate enough that I only need to take the exact amount of loans I need to cover my tuition, fees, and books...because we can rely on his income for other things, like the mortgage, dog food, etc. However, even though his job pays our daily bills (and we live fairly modestly...ie no car loans, etc), my tuition continues to go up every year and the fees are starting to get RIDICULOUS.

This year tuition and fees added up to $18,889 for in state (last year it was ~$14K). I wasn't even able to take out the entire amount in subsidized loans...which means I will earn interest on that debt for all four years of my DVM. That definitely adds up so you should talk to your school's financial aid office and find out what types of aid they offer.

There are also other costs that you dont think of when you're trying to break down the numbers. Some schools require that you carry your own health insurance or use the health insurance through the school. This will tack on another $2k (thats how much it is here). You may also be required to get a rabies vaccine, which runs ~$600. Books will cost you anywhere from $200 (if you're like me and ONLY buy the notes) to $1,100 per semester.

There were several people in our class this year that are OOS and their moving costs alone were crazy (plane tickets, damage deposits, first/last month's rent, moving truck...etc). Our school won't allow you to take out additional loans to cover these costs (Im not sure about other schools) so there were a lot of people here who had to borrow money from family to make the transition.

I guess my 2c is to take a look at the numbers realistically and not just look at tuition. There are a lot of other costs associated with chosing a school, so do your homework and, at the end of the day, choose the school that will make you the happiest....just make sure you're fully aware of what you're getting yourself into. 😀

Thanks for the info. I am thinking that my husband and I may be able to cover everything except the tuition, fees, and books. He is military so I am covered by his insurance and I got my rabies vaccines while I was in the military. My tuition is in-state, but I am currently living out of state, so yea, that will be the expensive part for me. I also plan on applying for HPSP 3yr., so I hope to only have to pay for the first year. Hopefully I get that and can start paying off the first year before I even get out of school!😎 Thanks for letting me know that it can be done though!

 

[jackrussel]

Reading through all these posts make me glad I'm in an aussie vet school. For citizens of Australia the Government massively subsidise our education. So our total debt at the end is approx. $40,000. And the loan is interest free. Taking into account books and equipment that will probably be another $10,000 (so $50k in total for education). The starting salary for a small animal vet is about $45,000 so that works out nicely. Because every state has a vet school most students live at home, so mostly free accommodation.

Is the $200,000 debt everyone mentions, for the course only or is it including accommodation? American vets must be highly dedicated to be ok with that much debt! How do you guys afford to take out a home loan?

 

[sumstorm]

Reading through all these posts make me glad I'm in an aussie vet school. For citizens of Australia the Government massively subsidise our education. So our total debt at the end is approx. $40,000. And the loan is interest free. Taking into account books and equipment that will probably be another $10,000 (so $50k in total for education). The starting salary for a small animal vet is about $45,000 so that works out nicely. Because every state has a vet school most students live at home, so mostly free accommodation.

Is the $200,000 debt everyone mentions, for the course only or is it including accommodation? American vets must be highly dedicated to be ok with that much debt! How do you guys afford to take out a home loan?

I attend the cheapest IS school in the States, and the estimated 4yr cost is $118,268 (which includes the living allowance.) I really, really miss Australia. I would have relocated there in a heartbeat. I do have a couple thousand in undergrad loans as well.

 

[frozen_canadian]

I guess this thread was started because of some comments I made in the prevet forum. Just for some real world numbers here is my information:
Graduated this past year from vet school.
Started salary $70,000 (this is the high end of the scale for graduates from my class, average salary was about $65,000).
Take home pay (net) is $3618 per month.

For all of you considering vet school, figure out what your loans payments will be every month and subtract that value from the above figure. Then figure out how much your:
disability insurance
health insurance
association dues
membership dues
rent (or mortgage payment!)
car payment
car insurance
gas
utilities
food
travel
etc
will cost and see if there is any money left over for savings and building an emergency fund.
I did this and have about $600/month left over, and only have a student loan payment of $300/month. If I had a payment of over $1000 I would be living beyond my means every month. And I live very cheaply (15 yr old car, rent a small apartment, never take big trips etc). Anyway else care to share their info??

 

[RainbowCloud]

anyone wondered about those international students in your class, why their parents could afford to pay their fees out of pocket?? admittedly there are some that have to mortgage their houses and whatnot (the country i completed high school, only less than 20% of eligible high school leavers manage to obtain a uni place so the kids have to go study abroad) but some parents have this amount of money at their disposal because they do investments... i was told that even if you work really really hard at a job, the money you earn is like just a fraction of what people have as their assets---because they invest....and im not talking about high risk investment, just low-moderate, thats how people earn money--oh and we have low tax rates, less than 10% i believe

so i guess im at a loss at why only income is calculated for loan repayment..?

 

[alliecat44]

i was told that even if you work really really hard at a job, the money you earn is like just a fraction of what people have as their assets---because they invest....and im not talking about high risk investment, just low-moderate, thats how people earn money--oh and we have low tax rates, less than 10% i believe

so i guess im at a loss at why only income is calculated for loan repayment..?

Um, because in order to invest, you have to have a certain amount of money left over at the end of the month after you pay all your bills and your student loan payments.

For newly-minted veterinarians in the US and Canada, that's becoming basically impossible (much more do-able for those with less than $100K in loans).

 

[BlacKAT33]

Didn't realize my thread was still being used lol I always forget to come back to the vet forum and see whats going on. thanks for all of the additional info! man, i wish i applied to australia!!

 

[HopefulAg]

i was told that even if you work really really hard at a job, the money you earn is like just a fraction of what people have as their assets---because they invest....and im not talking about high risk investment, just low-moderate, thats how people earn money--oh and we have low tax rates, less than 10% i believe

so i guess im at a loss at why only income is calculated for loan repayment..?

Because income is somewhat guaranteed and not as much at the mercy of the market place. You'll see a lot more stability in someone's income over a 6 month period than an interest rate, stock price, or whatever your favorite investing medium is.

For the record, I invest right now. I own several stocks, a few bonds, and some CDs. But I don't make NEAR enough interest off those to even begin paying for vet school. Interest on loans while I'm in vet school maybe, but vet school itself? No, my primary income will be taking care of that once I'm out.

 

[sumstorm]

well, here many folks who had invested and might have been able to do that just realized their entire investment has crashed and burned or lined the lifestyle of madoff. Far more of us are from parents who make enough to have some luxuries, like consuming meat on a regular basis, having a vehicle (because the region isn't set up for public transport, and owning pets) but not more than that, and so live paycheck to paycheck, or have just enough to deal with a couple months of no income. Also, in undergrad, assets like property are considered in how much families can help a student, and that reduces aid including lons. However, while parent are suppose to, according to our government, contribute to a students undergrad education up through the early 20's, there isn't a requirement, so quite a few people end up going it alone and that is nearly impossible with expected family contributions (and is my top gripe about our education system; you can marry, have kids, vote, go to war, be imprisoned and sentenced to death, but your parents are expected to pay for you schooling. Makes no sense, and isn't a viable system. Part of the issue is that our middle class spans huge range of incomes as well.

 

[purplepup21]

.