Any sense from classmates, interviewees, or yourself whether getting interviews at child programs or rotations is more difficult or if the imbalance differs? For example have adult-focused applicants recieved more interviews than child-focused applicants? Wondering as APPIC doesn't seem to provide breakdowns in this way (for child, neuro, or any other track specifc emphasis). Thanks
2011 APPIC Internship Application Thread
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Yeah, I would imagine that the tuition bit differs from school to school, and also depends--as you've mentioned--on whether or not you're actually an active student who is still working on your dissertation.
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I would think that would be difficult to fully determine. Several sites I interviewed at were generalist in that they had child and adult rotations.
It would be nice if APPI broke down the applicants and slots per tract in each site. Going to your question about adult vs. child, I know one strong site I interviewed at (St. Lukes/Roosevelt Medical Center in NYC) has 6 slots for adult and 6 for child focus. It would be interesting to know the number of applicants to each tract.
One final thought --- I would also be interested if any data were available regarding difficulty per site focus as well, if that were possible - I imagine that neuro focused sites, VA, and federal prisons to be among the most competitive. Because there are many such sites, and also because more funding overall goes towards research with adults, my guess is that adults sites would be more competitive than child. But, I am only guessing.........
It would be nice if APPI broke down the applicants and slots per tract in each site. Going to your question about adult vs. child, I know one strong site I interviewed at (St. Lukes/Roosevelt Medical Center in NYC) has 6 slots for adult and 6 for child focus. It would be interesting to know the number of applicants to each tract.
One final thought --- I would also be interested if any data were available regarding difficulty per site focus as well, if that were possible - I imagine that neuro focused sites, VA, and federal prisons to be among the most competitive. Because there are many such sites, and also because more funding overall goes towards research with adults, my guess is that adults sites would be more competitive than child. But, I am only guessing.........
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One final thought --- I would also be interested if any data were available regarding difficulty per site focus as well, if that were possible - I imagine that neuro focused sites, VA, and federal prisons to be among the most competitive. Because there are many such sites, and also because more funding overall goes towards research with adults, my guess is that adults sites would be more competitive than child. But, I am only guessing.........
Although there is no data to support my response, I have actually heard that child slots are actually more competitive because there are less available. Like you speculated, there is often more research being done with adults and so there tends to be more adult internships. Less research with children makes those spots more difficult to come by, at least that has been what I have heard. I could be wrong- and it could also be location specific.
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I do know that neuro tracks seem to be more open to interviewing and accepting Psy.D. candidates than do other tracks such as health, trauma, or substance abuse, so that would of course raise the number of possible candidates. However, I would imagine that there are still fewer neuro candidates than general adult candidates. Then again, there are also fewer neuro-specific slots, so I'm now sure to what degree it all ends up skewing the competitiveness.
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We are now down to this (supposedly) most pleasant part of the game called ranking, and I am glad I am not the only one torn between sites. I greatly appreciate your input into my ranking dilemma.
I've applied to and interviewed at a mixed bag of sites: VAs, hospitals, consortiums, and some purely forensic sites. I am planning to work in a prison setting for a few years after internship. However, I'd also like to do assessments and therapy in a private practice and maybe in a hospital setting at some point.
Particularly, I have some background in neuro, and I would like to get a decent training in both neuro and general psych assessment during my internship, although I am not going a formal neuropsychology route (2 yr postdoc, etc), as I love doing therapy as well. Out of all sites I interviewed at, VAs have the most solid neuro rotation and overall the best assessment training (surpise, surprise 🙂). Hospitals (I am only talking about those I interviewed at) do not seem nearly as good in regards to investment in the assessment training (although on paper they looked better), and forensic sites I interviewed at have virtually no neuro training, outside of some screening. I am getting stuck on two questions here.
1) If I rank the VAs highest and end up at a VA for internship (where I know I get the best assessment training), I'm afraid I may not be looked upon favourably when I apply for a job in prison. Is this a true assumption? Is internship considered to be a general training, or employers want to see that you specialized in their specific field while on internship?
2) The other assumption I make here (which may also be inaccurate) is that I can get referrals for neuro assessments for forensic and other patients without formally being a neuropsychologist. I know several non-neuropsychologists who do just that, but they started years ago, and now the situation can be different. It would be sad if my neuro experience from my pracitcums and coursework will be a waste...
Appreiciate any ideas, suggestions, cog restructuring, etc 😕
Good luck to everyone with the rest of this mad process. We are almost near the end!!!
I've applied to and interviewed at a mixed bag of sites: VAs, hospitals, consortiums, and some purely forensic sites. I am planning to work in a prison setting for a few years after internship. However, I'd also like to do assessments and therapy in a private practice and maybe in a hospital setting at some point.
Particularly, I have some background in neuro, and I would like to get a decent training in both neuro and general psych assessment during my internship, although I am not going a formal neuropsychology route (2 yr postdoc, etc), as I love doing therapy as well. Out of all sites I interviewed at, VAs have the most solid neuro rotation and overall the best assessment training (surpise, surprise 🙂). Hospitals (I am only talking about those I interviewed at) do not seem nearly as good in regards to investment in the assessment training (although on paper they looked better), and forensic sites I interviewed at have virtually no neuro training, outside of some screening. I am getting stuck on two questions here.
1) If I rank the VAs highest and end up at a VA for internship (where I know I get the best assessment training), I'm afraid I may not be looked upon favourably when I apply for a job in prison. Is this a true assumption? Is internship considered to be a general training, or employers want to see that you specialized in their specific field while on internship?
2) The other assumption I make here (which may also be inaccurate) is that I can get referrals for neuro assessments for forensic and other patients without formally being a neuropsychologist. I know several non-neuropsychologists who do just that, but they started years ago, and now the situation can be different. It would be sad if my neuro experience from my pracitcums and coursework will be a waste...
Appreiciate any ideas, suggestions, cog restructuring, etc 😕
Good luck to everyone with the rest of this mad process. We are almost near the end!!!
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It's most likely an untrue assumption. Some prisons would probably prefer a person have prior prison experience (internship or practica), but solid assessment training can typically mitigate your concern. "Specializing" on internship is generally not going to happen, and most post-docs will not expect someone to step in and do the job already. However, they will expect that you have solid generalist training and a good foundation of clinical knowledge.
Being a neuropsychologist, I am somewhat biased in regard to who should conduct neuropsychology assessments (only fellowship-trained neuropsychologists), though many clinicians still get referrals with far less training. I wouldn't feel comfortable practicing in a speciality area without formal training/mentorship, though I tend to be conservative about these matters. Utilizing some screeners like an RBANS is far different than interpreting data from 6-8 hours of assessments, reviewing imaging, etc. I think the former can be fine for most psychologists, but the latter really should be left to the people who have received formal training/mentorship.
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I'd appreciate input on a ranking-related question. I got 5 interviews, and I'd be happy at 4 of the 5 sites. I have some pretty serious concerns about one of the sites, and to be brief, there isn't much I like about it. Even some of the current interns are not at all happy there. I asked some follow-up questions, and the replies I received did not provide any clarification. The site in question takes 10 interns, so, if I rank this site last but they rank me anywhere 1-10, would I match there if I do not match at the sites I ranked 1-4? The possible permutations become a bit mind-boggling. I think the interviews at the sites I am ranking 1 and 2 went well, but there is no guarantee I'll be their first choice. I am seriously considering not ranking the site about which I have concerns. However, the chance of me matching goes way down since this site takes a large number of interns. I am struggling with not matching versus matching at a site where I am pretty certain I will not be happy. The goal is to finish grad school and actually get the PhD--part of me says I should rank this site to maximize my chances and simply deal with it for a year if I match there while the other (stubborn) part says don't rank it because you don't like it one bit. Thoughts?
Hmm I think that's the risk you have to consider. Try to visualize the experience of not matching, and then visualize the experience of matching to this not-so-hot site (is it APA approved?). Which is worse for you? I have 2 sites that are kind of undesirable too (they're APA approved but just located in cities/states where I would never want to live/settle down), but I am ranking them because of my debilitating fears of not matching, but that's just me. I am wrapping up with my dissertation, I hate my current job, and I do not want to waste another year in grad school. Those are my priorities. What are yours? Just keep in mind, internship is only 12 months. Many interns have told me that it goes by so quickly. And I know that if I match at a really boring city/town, I can spend the extra time getting back in shape, taking an art class, working on another manuscript, or looking up/applying to post-docs in cities where I want to eventually live. I also know that I am the type of person that will seek out experiences that I want/need (for ex, even if I'm not at a VA, I will ask for trauma-focused cases and try to learn CPT/PE so maybe I can land a VA post-doc).
Also, as per our friend Dr Greg Keilin and all the MATCH manuals, they insist that ranking your 5th site will not lower your chances of matching at your 1-4 sites. They go in detail in the manual about how this all works out. So it's best to rank all sites where you're being considered (at the risk of not matching) and rank based on your preference.
re: "so, if I rank this site last but they rank me anywhere 1-10, would I match there if I do not match at the sites I ranked 1-4?"
Yes- if you don't match at sites 1-4, then you will be matched to this 5th site, if you choose to rank them.
re: "I think the interviews at the sites I am ranking 1 and 2 went well, but there is no guarantee I'll be their first choice."
How many spots do your sites 1, 2 offer? Remember, you do not have to be their first choice for you to match there!!!! For example, if this site has only 1 spot, you could be the sixth person on the list and match there if their first 5 applicants don't match with them. And if this site has 2 spots, you could be ranked 8 or lower, if they haven't filled both spots with their top 7 applicants. Just remember that there are going to be applicants that sites rank highly, but the feeling's not mutual so these highly ranked applicants may rank another site more highly and matched to somewhere else.
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Aresta made an excellent reply, so I'll just second that sentiment--as the match results are binding, only rank a site if you could see yourself training there for a year. Whether or not you should rank them, again as aresta mentioned, depends on if you'd prefer not to match to matching at the program in question.
I have one site which is on a lower tier than all others, but like aresta, I'm ranking it simply because I don't want to risk not matching.
I have one site which is on a lower tier than all others, but like aresta, I'm ranking it simply because I don't want to risk not matching.
D
deleted106747
Just wanted to wish everyone good luck. I went through this last year, and I know how grueling it is. Hang in there - almost done.
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How important do folks think prestige of a site is when making ranking decisions? I had some interviews at fairly prestigious sites within the child tract (Bellevue, a few children's hospitals, etc) but did not like all of them as much as less prestigious (but still APA) sites. Likewise, I'd like to settle in the NYC area, so how beneficial is it to rank NYC area sites ahead of sites I preferred in other areas of the country? Any feedback/thoughts will be appreciated!
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I just wanted to say how interesting it is to oberve the variety of personalities that programs can have. All of mine have been distinctly different from one another both in their "feel" (warmth, casualness vs formality, view of themselves and their abilities) and in the focus/priorities for interns (although all have explictly stated their goal is training us so that we can pursue our individual goals, rather than getting slave labor and shaping us in their own image).
All of my sites have been great and pretty darn low-key/laid back as well. Very normal/socially engaging faculty at all my interviews as well. Always a plus! I have heard some VERY interesting stories regarding other sites from applicants on the trail though...
All of my sites have been great and pretty darn low-key/laid back as well. Very normal/socially engaging faculty at all my interviews as well. Always a plus! I have heard some VERY interesting stories regarding other sites from applicants on the trail though...
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I find myself in a similar situation of trying to decide to rank/not rank a site. What are peoples' opinions about a sufficient number of sites to rank before feeling comfortable not ranking a site (please note: this is a site that I realized was not a good fit after the interview. On paper, it seemed perfect, on interview day, not so much.)
Although prestige is factoring into my decision somewhat, it really is quite a small part. When thinking about my regression equation for site rankings there are things that have much greater weights than prestige. The thing with the greatest weight is my gut feeling of how comfortable and happy I would be at the specific site, and another item with greater weight is my desirability and the availability to stay in the location for not just intern year, but also a postdoc year and potentially beyond.
These stats can give you some guidance:
http://www.appic.org/match/5_2_2_1_12_match_about_statistics_general_2010.html
The relative competitiveness at your individual sites will be a variable as well and overall the more sites you rank the better your options for matching are. Just don't rank any place where you would be miserable.
http://www.appic.org/match/5_2_2_1_12_match_about_statistics_general_2010.html
The relative competitiveness at your individual sites will be a variable as well and overall the more sites you rank the better your options for matching are. Just don't rank any place where you would be miserable.
This is tough because I'm having similar concerns w/ ranking 2 sites both in the same city (big name hosp w/ so-so clinical training but will open tons of doors to research opp/networking because it's big name vs. less well-known hosp w/ amazing, solid clinical training). Acc to my DCT, if you're interested in a research career then prestige / overall hospital reputation matters a lot more than if you want to pursue a clinical career (in which you want to find an internship that provides solid clinical training to prepare you for competitive post-doc/jobs). I think another variable is the program's history and network of former interns, post-docs, and psychologists (a place such as BHC)-- those are the connections you want to make to find future post-docs/jobs. And I think as for Bellevue overall, many have the impression that if you can make it at Bellevue, you can make it anywhere. I've externed there, and interviewers (esp. @ out of state sites) have been impressed w/ my surviving as a trainee there. Most APA approved NYC sites are so competitive, so if you've been able to match to a hospital internship in NYC, I think you're fine in terms of landing post-docs and future jobs.
thanks docma!!! This is very helpful. The following is esp. relevant to what we're all thinking/worrying about:
Average Number of Rankings Submitted Per Applicant:
Matched Applicants 7.8
Also interesting....
Average Number of Applicants Ranked Per Position Offered for Each Program:
Programs Filling All Positions 8.3
So if a program has 3 positions, you could potentially be ranked at 20 and still get matched (and this is in general, obviously, and there will be outliers--those super competitive/desirable sites where they usually get their top 5 applicants).
I still don't understand why people are so hesitant to rank all sites they interviewed at. I guess unless the site is non-APA and/or you have 20 sites to consider... do you really want to waste another year? I guess if you're a 4th yr right now, and you're early in your game, then you don't mind another year to work on stuff. But I honestly do not want to dedicate another 4-5 months of my life, put everything on hold, so I can work on essays, travel, and interview. It's exhausting and I'm so tired of being broke! We have to do it for post-doc in less than a year. So why not increase your chances of matching by just ranking all the sites- yes even if it means you may not get your top #1,2,3, 4, dream site. To me, going to my lowest ranked site is BETTER than not matching. Plus if you have made it this far in grad school, I'm sure you are savvy enough to advocate for yourself and find the experiences you desire. I want to work with veterans and trauma, and if I match at a non-VA hospital, I will go out of my way and request all my outpt cases with trauma history or anxiety focused. Also, don't forget, if you don't get the type of training you desire on internship, there is always post-doc where you can be paid a little better and still get decent supervision/training. I've heard post-doc is a lot less competitive so there's still hope!
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Yep, that's where the "7-8 is the magic number" idea came from.
As for whether or not to rank a site, I've definitely heard a few horror stories that, had I experienced them, would cause me to refrain from ranking a site. However, beyond that, I definitely share your sentiment that matching to my last-place site beats not matching at all. Although I've been fortunate in that none of the places where I interviewed rubbed me the wrong way.
As a person going through this a 2nd time, I would ANYTHING (APA) over doing another year. But that's just me 🙂
I am totally not qualified to answer this question, but from what I've heard (similar to what has already been said) it generally doesn't matter, unless you want some specific position that the prestigious site would help you achieve. In general, good, solid training is what matters for a clinical career (and if you end up in private practice, that may not matter that much either! lol).
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Yes, thanks docma, that is very helpful 🙂
I'm not a person with 20 sites to consider, but I was lucky enough to break the 10 mark (I'm not geographically limited and so I was able to apply all over the country to sites that were a really good match with my previous experiences and future goals). For me, part of the reason I am considering not ranking a site is because the current interns are COMPLETELY miserable there. A few of them even disclosed that they would rather have not matched than ended up at this site. Like I mentioned, on paper this site looks awesome, but the interns are over worked and get terrible supervision. I think at that point the training is almost abusive, and indeed it might be better to take a year off. I could then use the time to make myself more competitive and also improve my interview skills, because if I don't match this year, I suspect I botched my interviews something fierce. However, I think you are right about some of the really negative consequences associated with not matching, and that is what makes it a really hard decision.
I should also add, that I feel like I'm in the lucky position of really liking every other site that I interviewed. I would, in fact, be just as happy training at my 6th choice as my 1st 🙂 It's amazing all the wonderful training opportunities that do exist for us, even if there are a few "bad apples" in the bunch
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that's too much info too digest for a non-stat person, however,
does that suggest that your chances of matching are greater for your 1,2,3 sites?
Yep, that's exactly right. IF you are matched, you are most likely going to be matched within your top 3 (80% chance).
hi Everyone,
I am having a really difficult time ranking one particular site. It's an accredited program but most rotations are with adults. I come from a child/adolescent program and there is only 1 major rotation offered working with adolescents mostly 16-18 years old. Most of my training thus far has been with younger children, ages 6-15, so in once sense this would really help fill some gaps in my training, but I am also nervous about not working with younger children during internship year. Here are some of the pros and cons to the site:
pros:
1) in a city I really want to move to and establish a career in... thus good for networking opportunities
2) accredited/good reputation
3) would provide training with older adolescents
4) lots of psychotherapy experience and training with diagnostic interviews (both areas in which I have less training)
5) would fulfill many of my other training goals (e.g. program evaluation experience, experience working on an interdisciplinary team etc...)
6) affiliated with a great university in the city (where I also wouldn't mind working one day)
cons:
1) only one rotation with adolescents ages 16 and up (and my experiences for far are all children 6-15 years old)
2) known to be more of an "adult" site
3) would be a huge learning curve (e.g. learning diagnostic interviews and intervention methods with older clients).
I guess I am wondering, how important is it to complete an internship with the exact population you intend to work with (e.g. younger children)? Would completing an internship with adolescents hinder my opportunities to find a job working with younger children in future? I am really scared of limited my exposure to working with younger children during internship even though I have already had lots of opportunity in the past to work with that population. To be honest, the main reason I am considering ranking it highly is because of the city it's in.
PS: I also live in Canada in a province where we have to declare areas of competence (e.g. clinical psychologist working with children, adolescents or adults) so experience in these domains is critical. You have to prove course work and clinical experience with each of these age ranges. I have had some clinical experience with younger children from my previous clinical practicums, and I have course work in both child and adolescent assessment and intervention.
I am having a really difficult time ranking one particular site. It's an accredited program but most rotations are with adults. I come from a child/adolescent program and there is only 1 major rotation offered working with adolescents mostly 16-18 years old. Most of my training thus far has been with younger children, ages 6-15, so in once sense this would really help fill some gaps in my training, but I am also nervous about not working with younger children during internship year. Here are some of the pros and cons to the site:
pros:
1) in a city I really want to move to and establish a career in... thus good for networking opportunities
2) accredited/good reputation
3) would provide training with older adolescents
4) lots of psychotherapy experience and training with diagnostic interviews (both areas in which I have less training)
5) would fulfill many of my other training goals (e.g. program evaluation experience, experience working on an interdisciplinary team etc...)
6) affiliated with a great university in the city (where I also wouldn't mind working one day)
cons:
1) only one rotation with adolescents ages 16 and up (and my experiences for far are all children 6-15 years old)
2) known to be more of an "adult" site
3) would be a huge learning curve (e.g. learning diagnostic interviews and intervention methods with older clients).
I guess I am wondering, how important is it to complete an internship with the exact population you intend to work with (e.g. younger children)? Would completing an internship with adolescents hinder my opportunities to find a job working with younger children in future? I am really scared of limited my exposure to working with younger children during internship even though I have already had lots of opportunity in the past to work with that population. To be honest, the main reason I am considering ranking it highly is because of the city it's in.
PS: I also live in Canada in a province where we have to declare areas of competence (e.g. clinical psychologist working with children, adolescents or adults) so experience in these domains is critical. You have to prove course work and clinical experience with each of these age ranges. I have had some clinical experience with younger children from my previous clinical practicums, and I have course work in both child and adolescent assessment and intervention.
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I am pulling together information about what I have learned about internship having gone through the process for our lab meeting on Tuesday. I am curious, what have you learned? What do you wish you had known? What surprised you about the process? I have some ideas, but any thoughts you have would be greatly appreciated.
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It can be seen as a positive, though it all depends how you present your experience. The same goes for your application for licensure in Canada.
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One thing that surprised me was how important it was to be prepared with good/solid questions for a site. Sites allowed more time in interviews for questions than I expected (in one interview, I had 15 minutes of questioning, and about 30 minutes of time for me to ask questions 😱). Additionally, I think that sites expect the run of the mill questions like "how are rotations assigned", but if you prep more site specific questions people appeared more impressed. This, however, takes a little more prep work. I also may not be a very credible source about the effectiveness of this strategy as I'm not sure that I was really a successful applicant, I will let you know on February 25th.
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I think it might be hard for many of us to speak to the necessity of training with a specific population during internship for those interested in declaring an area of competence, since the US is a little different. This might be a good thing to check with others in your interested area of competence. What kinds of experiences on internship do previous grads in your province have who declare a competence in the area of children?
That being said, for me, I actually tried to apply to sites that 1) Fit really well with my future goals in some way (and this varied from issues of desired age of population worked with to desired context, like within a hospital) and also 2) filled in some important "gap" in my training. It sounds like the site you mentioned would have you doing clinical work with adolescents that would potentially be really beneficial in rounding out your training. In my opinion, internship is one of the best chances you get to add to your training, while post-docs offer you the opportunity to specialize a little bit more.
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Thanks everyone for your comments. For the reasons many of you listed, I will rank the site that I have some reservations about. If I match there, it still means I can get my degree, even if it is not my ideal internship. I'd also go in with a positive attitude to get the most out of it I can.
Arsesta, one of my top choices is likely taking two people (which is great news as it was originally only taking one). I also spent time going back over some of the details of how the match system works, and that, too, seemed to help.
Good luck to everyone as we enter the last few weeks of this long process!
🙂
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Thanks everyone for your comments. For the reasons many of you listed, I will rank the site that I have some reservations about. If I match there, it still means I can get my degree, even if it is not my ideal internship. I'd also go in with a positive attitude to get the most out of it I can.
Arsesta, one of my top choices is likely taking two people (which is great news as it was originally only taking one). I also spent time going back over some of the details of how the match system works, and that, too, seemed to help.
Good luck to everyone as we enter the last few weeks of this long process!
Best of Luck!! I know how hard of a decision that must have been! I'm still struggling myself to figure out if it is worth ranking a site or not! But you are right, at the end of the day, it means I will get my Ph.D and be done with this blasted degree 😀
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Very hard! I still question it, and I'll probably waffle a few more times before the ranking deadline. I have also considered what I would get out of staying (due to not matching) in school one more year, and I feel like the answer is not too much. That's not saying I wouldn't learn more, but I have done most of the practica offered. I feel it is time to move on after putting in 5 years.
PsychScience, do you have a lot of sites to rank? If you do, perhaps that would ease your mind if you chose not to rank the site in question. With a small number of options, I was swayed to be "smart" about it and maximize my chances. I hope to hear good news from you (and everyone else) on Match Day!
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Before deciding not to rank a site, decide If you would prefer to wait another year and maybe not ever get your degree. My wife did not match last year, and had to go through the horrible clearinghouse. My wife would have happily taken your fifth spot on Feb 21, instead of facing uncertainty on her future. (this is all assuming that its an APA internship)
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It is an APA accredited internship. I am sorry that your wife had to experience the clearing house. I hope she found a decent internship through the clearinghouse. I have seen a few people in my department go through the clearing house in the previous years, and it does not look pleasant. Other than pick sites a little differently, I do not know what I would do differently with my application if I have to re-apply. It pretty much does come down to what PsychScience said about "being done with this blasted degree." Guess I have my answer, and I can stop waffling in the remaining days.
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I'm not suggesting that you not rank a site, but there will now be a second round of APPI applications instead of automatically going into the clearinghouse. So things won't get as crazy as quickly if you don't match initially.
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Holy crap, JN! Just saw this. You make me feel slothish.
Seems like only yesterday. G'luck!
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And irish too!
G'luck to you as well!
Thank you Paramour, it has truly been a crazy ride. I believe you are applying next year, correct? If so, I would be happy to share my materials with you and the things I learned going through the process. My fingers are crossed waiting for Feb 25th!
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I am sorry that your wife did not match and had to deal with such uncertainty regarding her future and the crazy that truly was the Clearinghouse. I imagine this was both very stressful for her, and for you. I sincerely hope she was able to successfully find a spot in the CH or will be a successful applicant this year. However, I do not think that the decision to rank or not rank one site will prohibit someone from EVER getting their degree, this seems a little extreme. Yes, some really solid applicants from good programs fail to match every year. However, I think that if you have good training from a reputable program and you are a strong applicant who applies broadly enough, you should match eventually. Although my program has seen a small number of students over the last ten years not match on their first go around, there has never been anyone in the history of the program that failed to match to a program necessary for the awarding of the degree. If there is anyone who is seriously considering not ranking a site because they would indeed rather take a year off than spend a year at the site in question, a quick glance at the success of previous students in their program to match should help calm some fears of NEVER getting their degree (qualifier- this may only hold true at programs that have a high match rate).
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As an aside- I also think there are serious potential legal implications for programs that require you to complete an internship for a degree but are not providing the quality training necessary for students to successfully obtain an internship.
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I am starting to get tired of these complaints (no offense 🙂). Legal problems---what are students going to do, sue their programs because they can't get a job?
Being in a poor quality training program is one thing - but as students, we/you also have the autonomy to make of your training what we want. YOU can search out quality practicum training experiences. YOU can search out training and professional development opportunities. YOU can search out additional lab or research experiences. Is it not possible that there are perhaps just fewer students with initiative/hard work/intelligence/creativity in some training programs (particularly of the for-profit type).
Being in a poor quality training program is one thing - but as students, we/you also have the autonomy to make of your training what we want. YOU can search out quality practicum training experiences. YOU can search out training and professional development opportunities. YOU can search out additional lab or research experiences. Is it not possible that there are perhaps just fewer students with initiative/hard work/intelligence/creativity in some training programs (particularly of the for-profit type).
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Hi all! Hope everyone is surviving these last tense weeks rolling up towards ranking deadlines. I have my list all set out except for #1 and #2. I'm about 90% decided on my #1 but there is that lingering 10%....
The questions holding me up are populations of interest, prestige, availability for future employment and starting a family at some point!!
Things are slow at practicum today since I've been out so having had any testing cases and my therapy cases have been flaking out with the bad weather. So I'm left to stew in my internship worry juices which is never a good thing.
A comment about ranking/not ranking...
Even with how awful this process has been, I likely wouldn't rank a site where the interns are miserable and even confided that they wished they hadn't ranked the site at all. I've had a miserable graduate training experience up to this point so the way a program treats their interns is VERY important to me.
Good luck everyone!!!!!!
The questions holding me up are populations of interest, prestige, availability for future employment and starting a family at some point!!
Things are slow at practicum today since I've been out so having had any testing cases and my therapy cases have been flaking out with the bad weather. So I'm left to stew in my internship worry juices which is never a good thing.
A comment about ranking/not ranking...
Even with how awful this process has been, I likely wouldn't rank a site where the interns are miserable and even confided that they wished they hadn't ranked the site at all. I've had a miserable graduate training experience up to this point so the way a program treats their interns is VERY important to me.
Good luck everyone!!!!!!
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Yes.
If the program requires an APA internship, and doesn't provide it for their students, that's a potential lawsuit. The student will sue the program and the program will sue the APA, and then maybe the APA governance will stop giving each other awards for long enough to resolve the problem.
If you look at last year's thread there were at least a few people in the boat of NEVER obtaining their degrees. At least one was nearing the end of a student visa I believe, while others were at/approaching the 7-year deadline. For example, you take 5 years to complete your coursework (not so unusual), then don't match the 1st year. That means you HAVE to match the 2nd year or you will never get your degree. Scary... Sure, inidividuals may not be completely innocent in this situation but there are a lot of people who work and/or have families and simply cannot complete a program in 4 years, leaving not-so-much time to get/finish internship.
This actually came up last year. It seems quite a few of us want to jump on the suing-APA wagon, but so far no one has gotten the ball rolling (I am one of these such lackeys). Whether or not the suit would be successful, it would certainly put the pressure on for SOMETHING to be done. I heard one interesting suggestion during my interviewing: Have APA limit the number of students accredited programs are allowed to accept, based on their match rate. So, your program matches 90%, next year you can accept more students. Your program only matches 25% (often b/c it's HUGE and doesn't devote enough time to making individuals competitive - I attend one such example), next year you can only accept X number of students. Personally, I think this is genius as it puts the burden on schools without lowering the APA requirements for internship accreditation (as others have suggested).
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That's the proposal of Stedman et al.
Stedman JM, Schoenfeld LS, Carroll, K, Allen, TF. The Internship Supply-Demand Crisis: Time For a Solution Is Now Training & Education in Professional Psychiatry 2009 Jan;3(3):135-139.
APA claims that doing this is restraint of trade and violates antitrust laws but Stedman et al (two of these authors are actual, for real lawyers, not wanna-be-lawyer psychologists) explain exactly why it is not.
If you want something done about the internship crisis I suggest you email APAGS leadership (APA governance is too busy giving themselves awards to notice the problem). The email of the director is here:
http://www.apa.org/apags/contact.aspx
and here are the officers, you can google their emails.
http://www.apa.org/apags/governance/index.aspx
You can also post on the APAGS facebook group.
Really, you can feel individual responsibility, but it's the JOB of APAGS folks to do this stuff. So, if you put pressure on them you're doing your part.
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Wow....I hadn't thought about it in those terms (2 unsuccessful attempts at internship and out of phd). Interesting and yes, a bit scary... I apologize for criticizing your posting about APA internships & lawsuits -🙂
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Yes, the solution proposed by Stedman and colleagues seems viable, practical, and fair. No wonder the APA is ignoring it.
Seriously, though, we all have a duty/responsibilty to light a fire under the collective asses of the APA (and APAGS) until something is done about this. Yes, inidividual's bear a good deal of responsibility for landing in a position where they may time out of their degree. We each had some choice in where we applied, when we applied, how we prepared ourselves beforehand, and our training path while in grad school. However, we cannot legislate the decision-making processes of people who major in psychology without adequate education on what it takes to actually make a living after the bachelor's degree. So the buck has to stop with the predatory programs that take advantage of student ignorance.
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