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Particularly when a site interviews 40+ people. I might get it if you're interviewing 4 people.
2011 APPIC Internship Application Thread
- Thread starter Therapist4Chnge
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Particularly when a site interviews 40+ people. I might get it if you're interviewing 4 people.
Here here! What's worse is that the interviews are in January, when, save a few lucky states, much of the country is covered in snow and ice. I drove through not one but two snow storms to get to interviews (lake effect snow between Buffalo and Syracuse, NY and driving through the mountains at night from Pittsburgh to West Virginia). I seriously feared for my life. And kept going. Because I had to. I was hoping risking my life to get to my interview might get me some brownie points but I guess it wasn't really enough. (As an aside, I also got two stomach viruses in January and I hadn't gotten any in the previous 15 years).
To require we go on interviews works better if the students only need to go on a few and it is basically given that qualified applicants will match somewhere. But doing it more than one year in a row with no guarantee of matching and taking a whole month off of work/school just isn't viable. And yeah, it's even more ridiculous considering it is one year of training.
Shouldn't APA accreditation of a degree-granting graduate program mean that the APA believes that program can determine that a student has been trained appropriately enough to earn their degree? But the programs don't have control over graduating their own students anymore because of this mis-match. So what's the point of APA accreditation for the PhD program in the first place? It is unbelievably asinine and nonsensical.
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I agree--I think there was hope that because phase 2 was going to be more organized than clearinghouse more folks would somehow have happy results. I am seriously rethinking the 4+1 thing and considering 5+1. I will be a strong candidate, but I know people in my program who were stringer and did not match, and ones that are similar who did. Also, I would love to stay in my city but will apply very broadly across the US, and I really really cannot afford to travel all over the country and not match, and have to do it again. That may well be just as expensive as finishing my diss 4th year, supercharging my research productivity, and then having a year where all I do is apply to internship and maybe do an externship that would diversify my CV.
One thing I find frustrating is finding out from my program how much another year, sans dissertation or coursework, would cost. Anyone else have that issue?
One thing I find frustrating is finding out from my program how much another year, sans dissertation or coursework, would cost. Anyone else have that issue?
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Trying to figure out this exact same thing! My dissertation is defended and my coursework is complete. Really the only thing standing between me and graduation is internship... I can't get ANY kind of funding from my department - no teaching, clinical placements, or research assistantships are available for upper year students. My university lost a lot of funding, so I would have to pay full tuition to stay enrolled, but since I don't need any more credits, I'm better of not doing so.
I fear I will have to start making payments on my loans next year, so I have look into deferring them or something since I have no income. I've been searching for jobs since phase I match day and I haven't been able to find anything besides teaching part-time at a local community college. I've done this before and it's no where near enough money to cover basic living expenses. What little savings I did have was spend on the internship process.
My professors are at a loss as far as what to recommend (my advisor told me to waitress for a year). The weakest part of my internship application is # of publications, so I've already been working on that but still have a ways to go. I was on a research fellowship this year, with no clinical responsibilities besides providing supervision in my department to 2nd years and co-facilitating a few group interventions for my lab. I'm concerned if I go another year without significant clinical work, it will HURT my application. I have a few leads on people who could supervise me outside my university, but of course that is all unpaid.
Since I didn't match, my partner is planning to start a PhD program this fall at our current university (in another field - thank goodness!), so we'll have his stipend coming in. The cost of living here is relatively low, but I'm really concerned about making ends meet (can't imagine the expense of re-applying next year on top of it...). Doesn't help matters that our lease is up in 5 weeks and we are just now looking at places in a college town that rents everything out 8 months in advance.
In sum, it's a really awful situation to be in, and I certainly recognize that I'm not the only one going through this right now. Any advice on the job search? In an ideal world, I would do something that will improve my application (clinical or clinical/research), but if that's not an option, I'm going to need to look outside of psychology for next year, and I don't know where to start.
Hope everyone else who didn't match finds themselves with some good options for next year!
Kakashhi: In terms of needing to look "outside" of psychology, I'd encourage you to think about looking more at all the directions psychology can go since you can probably frame this from a clinical perspective when you head back into the application process. Eg: work in many kinds of research (even in a business setting), quality assurance, employee assistance, schools, developmental assessments,advocacy, consultation, teaching (at many levels), grantwriting, disaster response/emeregecy preparedness, juvenile justice, etc. Scan the human resources sites for any local universities, hospitals, etc. Graduate school can give you tunnel vision. Doing something "outside the box" may lead to a great essay for next year's app cycle. It is awful that there was not a place for you this year but the odds in the current imbalance are terrible and even winners lose sometimes and the opportunity didn't come your way this round. Using it to find some completely new experience may open doors you don't know exist. Hang in there.
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How can they do that--charge you full tuition for literally, actually nothing? Even if you get internship app advisement from your dct, it'd only be a few credits worth of time, not full time for full tuition. Is that part of the program policies or can you just maintain matriculation, which is usually a few hundred $ a semester?
Clinical research positions, or mental health or community health or advocacy non-profits (program evaluation, grant writing, grant administration) may be a fit. Also, case worker or residential staff at assisted living. those spots can be on weekends, so you could work up to full time and then still do a part time clinical placement. I have known folks who have done therapy on their masters, though of course they were supervised.
Good luck !
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I could be wrong, but I think Kakashi might've meant that if enrolled (e.g., for general "research hours" or an couple classes), then there would be no tuition remission/financial aid. I believe our program would work the same way--should we not be on assistantship but remain enrolled for classes, we'd be on the hook for full tuition and fees.
I second the wish for good luck, and the suggestions for looking at advocacy and assisted living staff positions.
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but by enrolled for classes you mean actually taking classes, right? like, they cannot charge you tuition if you are not taking any credits? sorry if i am being obtuse, but i never thought until this thread that there may be charges for a 5th year if one had finished one's dissertation and all coursework, and it's scary!
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By enrolled, yes, I mean signed up for credits. What those credits entail, exactly, is variable--they could be for an actual class or classes, could be for independent research/dissertation, could be for practicum supervision hours, or could be some combination thereof. Whether or not one is required to remain enrolled may vary from program to program. However, if one is going to be applying for internship, then at the very least, I'd imagine they would need to be signed up for a handful (1-3) of practicum hours. Without an assistantship, those hours would likely be paid for out of pocket.
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I'm kinda in the same position. In my program, we receive full tuition remission in exchange for GA/TA/RA work. For the program, we are required to register for an internship "course" (not actually a course but you have to have a minimum of 3 credit hours in "internship"). So, I *have* to register for this class while I'm on internship. Since my internship is well out of state, I can't do any GA/TA/RA work, so I have to pay tuition. In order to get financial aid, I have to register for at least 6 more credit hours in the semester (I could select dissertation hours so there's no actual course but I'm still registered for it). However, that hikes up tuition obviously so I would have to take out a LOT in loans just to cover tuition, plus whatever I may need to live on (if my internship stipend alone isn't enough and it doesn't sound like it will be). And I have to pay student fees and gym fees and stuff like that even though I won't be stepping foot on campus or using any of the big resources that student fees cover (we've tried, they won't waive those fees. ever.).
SO...I either need to get a high paying short term job for the summer
rolleyes so I can save up to pay 3 credit hours of out of state tuition + fees out of pocket in addition to saving up whatever extra $$$ I will need to live on for intership OR I take out massive loans to cover everything, adding to my already impressive loan debt .
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Yep, this is exactly what I'm talking about - not a flat tuition rate or anything like that. I would have to pay the $700-800 per credit out of pocket in order to enroll in any course or research hours, so it's not to my benefit to stay enrolled since I've already completed coursework/dissertation.
I'm kinda in the same position. In my program, we receive full tuition remission in exchange for GA/TA/RA work. For the program, we are required to register for an internship "course" (not actually a course but you have to have a minimum of 3 credit hours in "internship"). So, I *have* to register for this class while I'm on internship. Since my internship is well out of state, I can't do any GA/TA/RA work, so I have to pay tuition. In order to get financial aid, I have to register for at least 6 more credit hours in the semester (I could select dissertation hours so there's no actual course but I'm still registered for it). However, that hikes up tuition obviously so I would have to take out a LOT in loans just to cover tuition, plus whatever I may need to live on (if my internship stipend alone isn't enough and it doesn't sound like it will be). And I have to pay student fees and gym fees and stuff like that even though I won't be stepping foot on campus or using any of the big resources that student fees cover (we've tried, they won't waive those fees. ever.).
SO...I either need to get a high paying short term job for the summer
That is exactly what my cohort-mates are struggling with, though I think the department is trying to work out a 1 or 2 credit waiver per semester for them. We haven't found a way to get around the student fees either, though. Yet another reason to for me to not take any credits.
Thanks to all on the job search advice. I've applied to everything I can find within a 2 hour radius so perhaps I need to be a little more patient. Definitely feeling the pressure since I will be signing a new lease soon with virtually no guaranteed income (unless something magical happens).
And just to clarify, by "outside of psychology" I meant outside of a psychology department or an agency where I could be supervised by a licensed psychologist. In my area, a lot of the community mental health centers do not have psychologists on staff, which makes it harder for them to provide supervision to an unlicensed clinician. Unfortunately this limits the types of clinical positions I can apply to - most of what I've found is community support staff/home visitors. The pay and hours are terrible, but at least it would be something.
Kakashi: remember that you may qualify for some clinical positions (unlicensed) with your masters..and while jobs may not pay much or have inconvenient hours, in some of them you gain skills that would be valued in subsequent settings (rapid assessment/psych emergency, adolescent crisis management, gero) or could be relevant later if you are looking at management/admin aspects of our field.
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I know that private practices in our area will sometimes post listings asking for master's-level grad students to conduct assessments (supervised, of course) for pay. The hourly rate isn't always stellar (~$15-20/hour I think) and is usually part-time at best, but it's definitely better than nothing.
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Just wondering because someone mentioned publications: what is an adequate amount for internship applications?
It really depends on what internship you are going for. Sites that are research-focused (i.e., Brown) won't even look at you if you don't have at least 5 publications and that is at the very minimum.
Most community mental health sites don't care about publications at all, even APA accredited sites.
That being said, the more you can add to your CV, the better. I obviously didn't match, so it's possible that more and more publications are necessary to match even at CMH sites who have historically not required them.
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That's what our DCTs told us. We were told Brown, some of the Harvard sites (not all), the Palo Alto VA, one of the Duke sites and many others won't consider candidates without a certain number of publications (not sure what the numbers are for each specific site). I know this is true for the Palo Alto VA because my current supervisor works there.
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I agree that you don't need 5 publications for research-heavy sites, although that helps. I had several interviews at research-heavy sites, and matched at one of them, with two publications. You also have to consider the quality of the publications, as well as whether your recommendations speak well of your research interest and skills.
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For what it is worth, I had an interview at Palo Alto VA with the two publications, as well as Mississippi and Baylor. I was not offered an interview at Brown.
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Thanks for the responses! It's nice to have some idea of what standard to meet. I'm working really hard on getting publications by the time I apply (which thankfully is later down the road), since I really want an internship with a research component.
Did you also have several poster presentations? Perhaps the Palo Alto VA's standard is 2 publications. I definitely don't claim to be an expert - I'm literally going based on what my DCT and a current supervisor told me. And I agree, I'm sure if you have a recommendation praising your research skills and a fantastic research essay, that is also very helpful for the research-heavy sites. And yes, quality over quantity, but at the same time, unless my DCT is flat out lying to us, there are some sites that will weed based on a certain # of publications.
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Just another perspective: having an internship with a research component isn't necessary for landing an academic gig, if that's the eventual goal. Doing a research project on internship can be very difficult unless there is secondary data to analyze because IRBs can be obnoxious (esp. in the VA system) and a year isn't a ton of time to devise a project, collect data, etc. Not sayin' it can't be done, just that it's tricky.
I am someone who always planned to pursue an academic path, yet deliberately applied to internships that are "research friendly" but not research-productive. I figured this would be my last year to get stellar clinical training, to try my hand at a full time clinical job to see for sure if I could be happy doing it (result: probably not), and to amass great clinical experience to foster future research ideas and teaching examples. I also got a tenure-track job at a research institution right out of internship, and I can tell you no one asked me anything about my internship choice during job interviews. For me, getting this clinical experience and working on publications on the side really allowed me to feel secure in my career path, and take a little break from the research-intensive life such that I'll be ready to start my new job strong.
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That's good to know, thanks for the information! Guess I'll shoot for "research-friendly" internships. A lot of the ones I've been eying up have been more clinically-oriented, so I'm happy that I can still consider them. Congrats on the position, btw.
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No doubt they are looking for people with a track record of research interest/involvement (and some tangible evidence of it) but I think this 5 pub rhetoric might just be a way for your school to steer its student into looking at more reasonable, realistic sites...given the imbalance.
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Very true. It's also possible that research-oriented internship sites look for/accept different numbers of publications based on where you've conducted your training--if you're coming from a program or advisor well-known in your field and with an solid track record of producing excellent researchers, they may be ok with you "only" having 1 or 2 publications; conversely, if your programs isn't as well-known or has a below-average reputation with the internship site, they may impose higher standards on current/future applicants during the weed out process.
Two friends of my fellow colleagues one at Palo Alto VA and the other at Duke VA did not have any publications. They did however have many poster/paper presentations.
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Just wanted to share some good news w/ my fellow SDN'ers...
I was offered an internship position today & I ACCEPTED!! Hope everyone is doing well
I was offered an internship position today & I ACCEPTED!! Hope everyone is doing well
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Just wanted to share some good news w/ my fellow SDN'ers...
I was offered an internship position today & I ACCEPTED!! Hope everyone is doing well
If its that one in Hazard, KY...you are in for some serious culture shock my friend
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If its that one in Hazard, KY...you are in for some serious culture shock my friend
Good rural experience!
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If its that one in Hazard, KY...you are in for some serious culture shock my friend
Nope, its actually in my hometown (a nice big city) ... which works out perfectly
Nope, its actually in my hometown (a nice big city) ... which works out perfectly
That's fantastic! Congratulations!
On soapbox.
As mentioned by others, this is just not true. Including this year, my university has had 4 people at Palo Alto VA (subsequently on faculty now there) within the past 7 years and the number of publications varies depending on the individual. And four of my peers got interviews at Brown this year and they also don't all meet the standard of five publications. The internship application process is stressful enough without having incorrect information added on to it unnecessarily.
At the time of applications, I had zero publications and still got more than a dozen interviews including top sites (e.g. Harvard, Emory, Boston Consortium). What was important was that I was exceptionally strong in the areas of clinical interest that matched well at sites. I say this because it's important that we recognize that the selection process cannot be boiled down to absolutes. If we believe these absolutes (i.e. must have five publications or must have had prior experience at a VA to get into a VA) then we don't pursue opportunities that are, in fact, available to us. I do understand that many well qualified individuals did not match so the anxiety and inequity of the process are very real and justified. I just think that we have to be careful about adding more on top of that, when it might not be necessary/accurate.
Off soapbox.
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Nope, its actually in my hometown (a nice big city) ... which works out perfectly
Very glad to hear it, congratulations to ya
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The 5 or more publications mantra has been around for quite awhile for the more research heavy sites, as one of my supervisors was at the Brown internship back in the 90s and she told me about it. It may be easier to think of it as a 'rule of thumb'. With competition being what it is now, I think it is worth considering. Knock yourself out and apply there, just understand that the handful of popular research-heavy sites are very very competitive, and many of the applicants will have more productivity than some junior faculty members.
As an aside, ClinicalTrainee made an excellent point when s/he differentiated between "research friendly" and "research-productive." I attended a "research friendly" internship that had faculty members with dozens of publications each, but they were not nearly as productive in recent years because of research changes within the VA system.
CT's point about using existing data v. cranking out an IRB + new data is very valid. I hit the ground running during my internship year, and I still was unable to get something through in time. Many VA hospitals are trying to streamline the IRB process (particularly when there is also a university IRB involved), but it can still drag. Use pre-existing data sets if possible or maybe continue your own work from your dissertation. There can also be some red tape when you leave your internship if you are in the middle of a project and want to continue as a main contributor.
Maybe I should take my own advice...I'm just finishing up a grant that I'm trying to wedge into the next 16-17 months. Collarboration here I come!
As an aside, ClinicalTrainee made an excellent point when s/he differentiated between "research friendly" and "research-productive." I attended a "research friendly" internship that had faculty members with dozens of publications each, but they were not nearly as productive in recent years because of research changes within the VA system.
CT's point about using existing data v. cranking out an IRB + new data is very valid. I hit the ground running during my internship year, and I still was unable to get something through in time. Many VA hospitals are trying to streamline the IRB process (particularly when there is also a university IRB involved), but it can still drag. Use pre-existing data sets if possible or maybe continue your own work from your dissertation. There can also be some red tape when you leave your internship if you are in the middle of a project and want to continue as a main contributor.
Maybe I should take my own advice...I'm just finishing up a grant that I'm trying to wedge into the next 16-17 months. Collarboration here I come!
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I always enjoy the internship conversations that go something like, "protected research time? Sure, you'll have plenty of that, it's called 'the weekend.'"
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It's a question worth asking. My "research friendly" site has been quite generous with the protected research time. Several of us have had a full day of protected time at some points throughout the year, and most have had at least half a day. Right now I don't have any, but that's because I'm trying to cram all these clinical experiences into the last four months of full time clinical work I'll ever do.
But some sites really do give it! That said, it's up to us to truly protect the protected time and not let anyone interfere with that. It's difficult to do, when that assessment report needs to be written you you're behind with notes, etc., but if it's a concern ask the current interns to give the true low-down.
For the record, T4C, I am a "she."
I agree with this. I knew I wanted to be at a VA for internship. I have no VA experience and one presentation (no publications) and even though it was not easy, I did get an internship at a VA in phase II. Maybe I got lucky, but my point is that people should not be afraid to go after what they want and get caught up on having less than x number of publications etc. I do think I might have had more interviews in phase I had I had VA experience, however I really don't know and I did have interviews at good and competitive VAs in phase I.
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Relatedly, I've always found the national data from APPIC on this topic to be quite interesting. Last years data:
I know that for research-orientated or even research-interested/involved folks, this data isn't likely representative, but still, it's interesting and gives a bit of perspective, I think, when you realize that having more than 3 publications would still place you in ~ the top 12% in that regard and even a single publication would place you in the upper half. (I do have to wonder how that person got 15+ books or book chapters while in grad school, though! Seems like a ton.)
Also, I wouldn't necessarily worry about the number of publications you have in first or second year--at least in my (albeit limited) experience, the length of the publication process seems to cycle from a whole lot of nothing (when things are in prep/under review) to everything suddenly going forward it once. YMMV, of course
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I also don't quite understand where this "you must have 'x' type of experience to obtain 'x' internship" comes from" most of the time, unless it comes from students and their DCT's who are trying to scare off the competition so that their students are more likely to match there. I heard a group of DCT's from PsyD's in the Chicago/Chicagoland area earlier in the area arguing quite vehemently that no one had a chance of obtaining an internship at a VA unless one had prior practicum experience at a VA. They might be able to squeak by if they had received training at a community mental health clinic. I found this quite interesting as our program usually matches at least a few students each year at reputable VA programs and we have neither VA nor community mental health practicums available to us. Hell, we may not even have practicums outside of our univ clinic for much longer but that's another rant...
Figure out what you want and go for it. That certainly doesn't mean make every site a "reach," but if you package yourself wisely, then it should make for a better sell to the programs who are looking to train you. As I've heard a few site directors state, they're not necessarily looking for people exactly like themselves, but for people who can bring something else to their programs that they can work with in shaping out their training.
I apologize. I didn't mean to upset people with my comment. I was simply trying to be helpful by reporting the information I was given by my DCT. The main point I was trying to make is that having articles/posters/presentations can't hurt your application, while in some cases (though not always), not having research can potentially hurt your chances. I'm also coming from a position of not matching, despite having acquired over 1000 face to face hours and not applying to research heavy sites. My DCT thinks it's because of my lack of research... Perhaps that's his bias... So, I don't know.
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Can I ask a quick question. I'll soon be looking at sites to apply to this fall, and am starting to look through AAPIC's website. Could somebody tell me the types of site differences I may find that exist between a "medical school" site and a "state/county/public/other hospital"? I ask because I currently work at a State Hospital (Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas Texas) but that program is ran through the Univ Texas Southwestern Medical School.
Any clarification is appreciated. Thanks.
Any clarification is appreciated. Thanks.
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Oh, I'm not sure if anyone was upset with your comments, and I certainly agree that articles/posters/presentations certainly won't hurt your application, whereas there may be a lack of experience in certain areas that may hurt your application dependent upon the site. Yet, at the same time, I think that there are too many folks out there who are "underqualified" (?) or who tell people that they can't do something because they don't have the exact combination of training that they personally think should qualify an individual for a particular position, whether it's true or not. I hate to see people not research the opportunities and criteria for themselves further, or at least attempt to apply for said positions because they were told they can't do underwater basket weaving when all their experience is in underwater baby blanket crotcheting. Don't take one DCT's word for it. Do some legwork people!
Really well-qualified folks did not match because the odds are awful in the current circumstances. So not-matching can simply be true bad luck and one simply has to practice radical acceptance and get through to another year.
And it can also be true that factors you do have control over matter: progress on the dissertation, tone of your cover letter, impression your essays make with sites you prefer, fit of your references with the sites where you apply. These are where you may be effective in improving odds in the next round. When you are ready, getting some feedback from sites and from folks inside and outside your program could be useful.
It is tempting to look for a formula that will explain the pain and disappointment but I think the algorithm is so complex that it defies imagination.
And it can also be true that factors you do have control over matter: progress on the dissertation, tone of your cover letter, impression your essays make with sites you prefer, fit of your references with the sites where you apply. These are where you may be effective in improving odds in the next round. When you are ready, getting some feedback from sites and from folks inside and outside your program could be useful.
It is tempting to look for a formula that will explain the pain and disappointment but I think the algorithm is so complex that it defies imagination.
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