That makes sense. Where's the cutoff though? I've only been out of my old job for a year now and have done ~100 hrs of volunteering in that time. No shadowing yet, but I plan to try and get that lined up after the mcat in a couple of weeks. I'm also an advisor right now for an on-campus organization, and I was pretty involved in undergrad. I also did a fair amount of volunteer work (not in the medical field) in the 4 years after graduation and before I came back to school. Like the poster above said, it's all so subjective. I just want to crawl into a hole until this is all over, haha.
2011 Nontrad Applicants' Progress Thread
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That makes sense. Where's the cutoff though? I've only been out of my old job for a year now and have done ~100 hrs of volunteering in that time. No shadowing yet, but I plan to try and get that lined up after the mcat in a couple of weeks. I'm also an advisor right now for an on-campus organization, and I was pretty involved in undergrad. I also did a fair amount of volunteer work (not in the medical field) in the 4 years after graduation and before I came back to school. Like the poster above said, it's all so subjective. I just want to crawl into a hole until this is all over, haha.
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Q-
I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea. I think more clinical experience is a GOOD thing to get. For everyone, trad or nontrad. And I'm not upset that they suggested I seek out more. Not at all. I actually had been quite frustrated even before my first app cycle that REAL clinical experience is so dang hard to come by.
I guess I am just frustrated that as a nontrad the fact that I left another career field to do this doesn't seem to show "commitment". And frankly, the wording of the statement bothers me. I would've been fine with, "we aren't comfortable with the fact that you don't have a lot of clinical experience" or even, "we prefer that our applicants have more hands-on clinical time than you have." I took issue with the fact that I "wasn't committed enough." That is calling into question things that no individual other than the applicant him/herself can truly understand. Commitment to something is largely mental and while racking up hours in the clinic could indicate commitment, in my opinion, it mostly shows that the person knows how to work the system and check off the right boxes. Granted, perhaps that is a useful and desirable skill in a physician as well?
My point is that clinic hours don't necessarily correlate to "commitment," but leaving success behind you to be broke and never see your family DOES show a commitment, albeit an intangible one. That's all.
And yes, I took their suggestion and sought out more clinical experience. I improved my app tremendously, actually, and I feel a lot better going into it this year.
I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea. I think more clinical experience is a GOOD thing to get. For everyone, trad or nontrad. And I'm not upset that they suggested I seek out more. Not at all. I actually had been quite frustrated even before my first app cycle that REAL clinical experience is so dang hard to come by.
I guess I am just frustrated that as a nontrad the fact that I left another career field to do this doesn't seem to show "commitment". And frankly, the wording of the statement bothers me. I would've been fine with, "we aren't comfortable with the fact that you don't have a lot of clinical experience" or even, "we prefer that our applicants have more hands-on clinical time than you have." I took issue with the fact that I "wasn't committed enough." That is calling into question things that no individual other than the applicant him/herself can truly understand. Commitment to something is largely mental and while racking up hours in the clinic could indicate commitment, in my opinion, it mostly shows that the person knows how to work the system and check off the right boxes. Granted, perhaps that is a useful and desirable skill in a physician as well?
My point is that clinic hours don't necessarily correlate to "commitment," but leaving success behind you to be broke and never see your family DOES show a commitment, albeit an intangible one. That's all.
And yes, I took their suggestion and sought out more clinical experience. I improved my app tremendously, actually, and I feel a lot better going into it this year.
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One more thing, Q, and this is a genuine, heartfelt question from someone who doesn't really know what they're doing to someone who obviously does know what they are doing (you got in, after all, and that is what I am trying to do!). I'm not trying to be inflammatory or anything like that.
My question is this: why does it seem like nontrads have to work 3000 times harder than a trad to prove this (the bolded portion)? Truthfully, I don't have much experience with other premeds -- I try to avoid them, generally -- but it seems like a nontrad has to do so much more to prove this, while some 20 yo kid can just get mommy and daddy to pay for a weeklong mission trip to guatemala or something.... And I'm not knocking missions or anything. I think they're great, just not practical for everyone (including me!).
You seem to know how the admissions process works, so I would be happy to know if there is something in particular adcoms like to see specifically from nontrads to go that extra mile, so to speak.
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Because that 20 yo kid has a significantly higher GPA than we do?
QofQuimica
Seriously, dude, I think you're overreacting....
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I can't tell you how they do things at other schools, but at my school, we don't have a "cutoff" in terms of a specific number of hours that the adcom is looking for. Again, as you said, it's very subjective, and maybe the best way to think about it is that it follows the Potter Stewart standard. In your case, getting the shadowing is definitely a good idea since it doesn't sound like you have much clinical experience yet.
Your frustration is completely understandable, and you won't get any argument from me concerning the wording of telling an applicant like you that you aren't "committed" enough. As you suggest, I'd rather someone just tell it to me like it is.
You're doing all the right things then, and best of luck to you. 🙂
Your question is more than fair. Again, I can only speak for my own school. (I've been a student adcom for the past three years.) The adcom does not have special standards or expect anything else from nontrads that we don't expect from trads. But, and this is a big but, we also expect nontrads to cut the same muster that the trads do. In other words, being a nontrad is not a disadvantage to you, and may be a significant advantage in terms of your ECs and interviewing ability. But it's not a get into med school free card. We expect that *all* of the applicants will have some kind of clinical experience, regardless of their age.
As for why you perceive the app process to be harder for nontrads, my guess would be that it's in large part because nontrads tend to have more competing responsibilities than trads do. Trads are usually not worried about families and mortgages and the like. So in that sense, I agree with you that nontrads do have a harder time in terms of balancing all of the same expectations compared to younger applicants who are less encumbered. On the other hand, adcoms are aware that nontrads tend to have more responsibilities competing for their time and attention, and at least at my school, we do sometimes make exceptions for various requirements on a case by case basis.
I also think that the relative isolation of nontrads plays into this. When you are a nontrad, you often do not have a premed advisor, or a premed committee, or a premed club. You mentioned before about med school selecting for people who can play the game, so to speak, and there is definitely something to that. In other words, it's sometimes hard to know how to jump through the hoops when you don't have the same guidance that most of your trad peers have. (Not that I have much general respect for premed advisors, mind you.
)P.S. I think of medical missions as "medical vacations." If a week-long vacation in a third world country is an applicant's only clinical experience, then I'd say they need to show more commitment to medicine. 😉
Well, yeah, and there's that too. On average, nontrads have significantly lower stats (both GPA and MCAT) than trads do.Because that 20 yo kid has a significantly higher GPA than we do?
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Thank you for the great responses, Q! It's nice to get an insider's perspective. 🙂
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Is anyone else going batty from waiting to be verified? 😱
On Day 11 so far. Looking at the trends I'm hoping to be verified by the end of next week.
The reason this is driving me nuts is because I don't know how certain grades will be coded. I have several classes from McGill that have official transcript grade of "J", which is basically a variation on the theme of Incomplete. I took an Incomplete, but was never able to return to finish the coursework.
I'm assuming the realistic worst, which is that they'll get coded into Fs per AMCAS. But I also have a secret fantasy that some reviewer might mistakenly (or perhaps mercifully!) code them as Incomplete. It would make a huge difference in my GPA!
On Day 11 so far. Looking at the trends I'm hoping to be verified by the end of next week.
The reason this is driving me nuts is because I don't know how certain grades will be coded. I have several classes from McGill that have official transcript grade of "J", which is basically a variation on the theme of Incomplete. I took an Incomplete, but was never able to return to finish the coursework.
I'm assuming the realistic worst, which is that they'll get coded into Fs per AMCAS. But I also have a secret fantasy that some reviewer might mistakenly (or perhaps mercifully!) code them as Incomplete. It would make a huge difference in my GPA!
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I was going bonkers waiting... Until yesterday when I apparently came up for verification and my app got kicked back to hold status for having a missing transcript. After what seemed like hours on the phone with various people, I found out that I have a transcript of my military training worth like 2 pe credits. I never knew about it, and it never came up last year for some reason. As a final kicker, the office that handles these ridiculous transcripts just moved from KS to TN. None of the phone numbers work, and all of the addresses and email addresses are wrong. "We're hopin' to have them back up and runnin' maybe by next Tuesday" was the closest thing to an official response that I got.
You can't buy AWESOME like that. 😡
You can't buy AWESOME like that. 😡
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Sorry man. That blows. In the meantime look for last year's secondary prompts from the schools you're applying to. (Search the pre-allo and pre-osteo forums) Most of them don't change year to year. Start working on them now. That way once you get the secondary apps you can submit them the next day. Get all your other ducks in a row and you probably won't have delayed your app completion date by very much.
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I just got a request for LOR's from Mayo this morning. That's really exciting. They only request those from 1/5th of the applicants. My chances just went up to 1 in 10.
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Ed, congrats on the Mayo LORs req!
I see from the AMCAS Verification thread that they almost got to my app today. Here's hoping for Tuesday!
WTF? That's awful. 😱
I see from the AMCAS Verification thread that they almost got to my app today. Here's hoping for Tuesday!
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Secondaries for three schools in and verified. I hope I get interviews. Waiting for secondaries for a few more schools. Fingers are crossed and I can't stop checking my email.
Just wanted to stop by, say "Hey" to all the other nontrads out there, and wish you all the best of luck.
Just sent off my second transcript yesterday because I was waiting for a bio grade to be posted (need all the As I can get!)
Just sent off my second transcript yesterday because I was waiting for a bio grade to be posted (need all the As I can get!)
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I want to post my facebook status as, "Drowning in secondaries". But alas, nobody will know what I mean....
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My pre-med advisor at my school gave me some advice that I took. She said that if you applied to a very lot of places you would get either a very many interviews or none. If you got a lot of interviews, then you would get several acceptances, but if you got no interviews, you probably would get none no matter how many you applied to.
Therefore, she said, apply only to those places that you really want to go to.
I read on MDApps someone who was accepted at one school and said that they rejected it because they couldn't imagine wanting to live in that area. Then why, I thought, did you APPLY THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!
I ended up applying only at 6 places. Two dream schools, two reasonable safe schools, my state school, and one school that I feel like would be a good match, even though I don't have a really high chance of getting in there.
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I applied to a lot of schools because I'm just not sure where I want to go. I figured out after visiting a bunch of schools that the places I thought I would like were not a good match but the places that I wasn't keen on I actually liked. (Q said the same thing happened to her.) At that point I decided to try the shotgun approach, same multi level system you choose but to a few more schools. I figure if I get a few interviews being at the school will give me a better idea of where I want to go.
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I was awakened at 7:30am by the chime of an email from AAMC. My app has been verified, yay!Here's hoping for Tuesday!
The bad news is that the old incomplete grades did indeed get coded into Fs for AMCAS. The good news is that they also accepted some of my more creative BCMP classifications, for example I marked Epidemiology as a Math/Stats class, since that was most of the content. Thanks to two extra BCMP classifications, my science GPA got the tiniest little boost up to 3.01. By the hair on my chinny-chin-chin! 😱
Now waiting for secondaries. Except I think both of my schools aren't sending anything til mid-July. Oh well, I'm here waiting with my nose pressed up against the glass.
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More volunteering would be great, but that's completely respectable IMO.
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I just got a secondary invite and when I went to the website it said secondaries wouldn't be available until 3 weeks from now. I guess that means I'm on the early side of the application process!
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I was awakened at 7:30am by the chime of an email from AAMC. My app has been verified, yay!
The bad news is that the old incomplete grades did indeed get coded into Fs for AMCAS. The good news is that they also accepted some of my more creative BCMP classifications, for example I marked Epidemiology as a Math/Stats class, since that was most of the content. Thanks to two extra BCMP classifications, my science GPA got the tiniest little boost up to 3.01. By the hair on my chinny-chin-chin! 😱
Now waiting for secondaries. Except I think both of my schools aren't sending anything til mid-July. Oh well, I'm here waiting with my nose pressed up against the glass.
Call AMCAS and challenge the F's.
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Realistically, I can't. As accurately as I can interpret the rules, they stand by what the original issuing institution says. McGill says that "J" grades (an incomplete -> absent) count as Fs if unresolved within a year. I was just kinda hoping for a mistaken or merciful interpretation to Incomplete. *sigh*
And I've already tried challenging them with McGill, especially the F in PChem summer school that I never knew I was even registered for, and was never in town to attend in the first place. Nothin' doing.
They have to stand. I just have to hope that schools will look past cumulative GPA numbers, and see that it's all being dragged down by a freshman meltdown. 🙁
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Why should we admit you into this years class?
Because I'm extremely good looking.
I wish I had the guts to write that answer on a secondary.
Because I'm extremely good looking.
I wish I had the guts to write that answer on a secondary.
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I just got my first interview. 
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Oh is it like fortune cookies where you add the phrase 'except in bed' at the end of it?
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Don't tempt me to write that in a secondary answer. I'm like Marty Mcfly, I'll do anything you dare me to....
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Oooo....now you've done it. I DARE YOU!
(Don't really do this. I want all competitors to have a fair chance and I root for all non-traditional 🙂 )
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Too late. I hope the people at Harvard have a sense of humor.....
QofQuimica
Seriously, dude, I think you're overreacting....
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Awesome, congrats! 👍I just got my first interview.
Since there aren't enough nontrad residency applicants to warrant our own thread (I'd get pretty lonely in there replying to my own posts over and over), I'm going to join you folks. ERAS (the residency app service, analogous to AMCAS) is now open, and I have my token as of yesterday. (This is a code that your school gives you so that you can start your application.) All of a sudden, this whole residency thing is starting to actually feel real.... 😱
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Well, one thing you've got going for you is a better acronym.
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Good luck Q!!!
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It is super early in the process...yet somehow I feel discouraged that nothing has happened to me yet while I see some others getting interviews and such.
Logically, of course, I know this is unreasonable, but still....🙂 Anyone else feeling the same way?
Logically, of course, I know this is unreasonable, but still....🙂 Anyone else feeling the same way?
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I'm glad. I wanted to know how you were doing. What specialty are you hoping for?
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Good luck, everyone, and congrats to those who have already gotten interviews! So far I've submitted 6 secondaries out of the 11 schools I applied to, but I have yet to receive secondaries from the others. I'm super nervous because I just received my "under review" email from my top choice, and it said I'd know if I would be getting an interview in 2-3 weeks.
This is getting scary.
This is getting scary.
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You are going to get in EA!
Chiming in here - secondary overload is definitely kicking in. Hopefully I'll be able round out my first dozen submitted by the time the rest of the second dozen comes in.
My academic record is such a Jekyll/Hyde story it's really hard for me to figure out what kind of shot I have, but here's to being optimistic
I'm right there with you...not sure how schools are going to look at my academic record so I applied pretty broadly to a bunch of different schools.
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Same here. I am hoping applying broadly will do the trick. Also, just submitted my application today. I am very excited
. Good luck to everybody 👍
QofQuimica
Seriously, dude, I think you're overreacting....
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Hmm, I never thought of it that way. AMCAS doesn't seem too bad to me, but I'll grant you that AACOMAS is pretty unwieldy as far as acronyms go.
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I think I've done 6 secondaries and I'm still sitting on 7 or 8. Tomorrow I hope to knock down at least 5 of those!
ChemMed are you comfortable sharing where that interview invite came out of?
Good luck Q. I've always enjoyed your advice around here and I hope you'll still have time to provide it once you get into your dream residency. 😉
ChemMed are you comfortable sharing where that interview invite came out of?
Good luck Q. I've always enjoyed your advice around here and I hope you'll still have time to provide it once you get into your dream residency. 😉
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Yes. Fill in next year's coursework as "Current/Future" -- you definitely want to include it so they can see you'll have completed all the pre-reqs before matriculating. Good luck!
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I listed them an marked in progress. I think admissions commitees want to see what your plans are and this is one of the places they can look. Your call though.
My primary was verified today (7/14, submitted on 6/25). I've received one secondary (GWU) which everyone gets about a few days after I submitted the primary to be verified.
Now I'm getting nervous. How long after verification should I expect to wait before secondaries start showing up?
Now I'm getting nervous. How long after verification should I expect to wait before secondaries start showing up?
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Just submitted my AMCAS app on 7/10...hope I'll be where you all are at in a bit. Freaked me out when I recieved an invitation to Boston's and Columbia's secondary, made me realize how real the process is...GL to everyone!
QofQuimica
Seriously, dude, I think you're overreacting....
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It depends on whether the schools are screening or nonscreening. If they're nonscreening, go ahead and start working on the secondary essays now; you can find all the prompts in the PA forum. If they're screening schools, it can take longer. Although, even the screening secondaries can come pretty quickly. When I applied, I got my screening state school secondaries *before* I got many of the nonscreening secondaries from the OOS private schools.
On this end, I opened my ERAS app and looked through all the tabs. There are a bunch of sections for demographics, educational background, activities, a PS, LORs, a photo, and the like. There is also a section that allows you to search for every residency program in every specialty that is participating in the NRMP (National Resident Matching Program). There must be thousands of them in all, but it's not too bad if you narrow it down, say by state and specialty. I searched for my home program just to try it out. Fortunately, I can skip all of the sections that do not apply to U.S. allo seniors, but still, it's going to be a lot of work.
One cool thing about ERAS though, besides that I don't have to manually enter every post-secondary class I've ever taken since 1992(!), is that it generates a CV for you as you go along. So after I save each section, I can see that information being added to the CV. 🙂
