2013 Nontrad Applicants' Progress Thread

[psychkub]

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad

Ho-lee, I actually have an interview! I applied to 7 schools, this is the first one I have heard back from. Hoping that is a good sign and I applied to enough!

Congratulations! I remember my first II. I was on cloud 9!

 

[dsoz]

Ho-lee, I actually have an interview! I applied to 7 schools, this is the first one I have heard back from. Hoping that is a good sign and I applied to enough!

Where is it at? What are your stats? Where else did you apply?

I applied to 8 MD schools and 12 DO schools. I have one II, and waiting to hear back from a lot of other places. No rejections (yet).

dsoz

 

[excitedtoapply]

Where is it at? What are your stats? Where else did you apply?

I applied to 8 MD schools and 12 DO schools. I have one II, and waiting to hear back from a lot of other places. No rejections (yet).

dsoz

My Oregonian friend! I have seen you posting on COMP-NW (my top choice). I have applied to COMP-NW, AZCOM (interview), PCOM-GA (almost done with secondary), DMU, PNWU (not done with the long essay), LECOM, ATSU, and the only MD: OHSU.

I picked schools based on states I thought I could talk my husband into moving if I don't get into an Oregon school (OHSU is a long shot with a cGPA 3.4, sGPA 3.0, MCAT 29) but I have a better chance with the DOs, cGPA 3.47, sGPA 3.38. It may seem like a silly way to pick schools but there it is. That way he knows he isn't forgotten in my drive for med school...

 

[stolen_biscuit]

I picked schools based on states I thought I could talk my husband into moving if I don't get into an Oregon school. That way he knows he isn't forgotten in my drive for med school...

This is what we did! Bought a big US map, and started putting stickies all over the place. Started picking off post-its city by city based on our likes/dislikes in environment and what we want our kids to have access to. Eventually we got down to a reasonable number.

I have been lucky to get 3 interviews, so I am hoping the "interviews three, a doctor you'll be" saying is true. 😉 Am still hoping for a little more home state love and some places close to family, but I'd be happy anywhere we narrowed it down to!

 

[elevenses]

First invitation to interview: The University of Chicago! Very happy. Very, very happy. Still have to finish writing my Vanderbilt secondary...

 

[dsoz]

My Oregonian friend! I have seen you posting on COMP-NW (my top choice). I have applied to COMP-NW, AZCOM (interview), PCOM-GA (almost done with secondary), DMU, PNWU (not done with the long essay), LECOM, ATSU, and the only MD: OHSU.

I have several of the same schools as you. I hope to see you on the interview trail at some time. 🙂 If we do meet, we can buy each other coffee for good luck!

This is what we did! Bought a big US map, and started putting stickies all over the place. Started picking off post-its city by city based on our likes/dislikes in environment and what we want our kids to have access to. Eventually we got down to a reasonable number.

I did a similar process with my wife, but no big map. Mostly it was using the MSAR and a handy spreadsheet that I got from SDN that had every school listed with average GPA, MCAT and LizzyM score. I chose schools that I was +/- 2 LizzyM points that was in an area of the country that my wife was willing to move. Then somehow Oklahoma COM sneaked onto the master list. I don't know how it happened, but it did so I submitted a primary. It was the first secondary that I received, but still have not worked on the essays.

dsoz

 

[elevenses]

I just made sure to ask my wife about each of the cities I was interested in. I'm also not applying anywhere that doesn't have a PA or ANP school nearby; she's an RN who wants to go back to school. I had to cut a few schools that I was excited about from my list, but hey! My wife's happiness is definitely more important. I'm hoping to cluster interviews so that maybe my wife and I can go together. I really, really want to avoid ending up in a city that she doesn't like.

I still couldn't resist applying to the Mayo Clinic, though.

 

[stolen_biscuit]

Congrats on the interviews everyone!

I did a similar process with my wife, but no big map. Mostly it was using the MSAR and a handy spreadsheet that I got from SDN that had every school listed with average GPA, MCAT and LizzyM score. I chose schools that I was +/- 2 LizzyM points that was in an area of the country that my wife was willing to move.

Yes, that document was great! I didn't follow it quite that closely, assuming non-trads might have a little different odds, but I referenced it a ton while selecting schools.

As for the map, I got it because (1) I thought my kids might be interested in where we were looking (they were not!) and (2) if you knew how horrible my geography skills are, you would wonder how I graduated high school (much less how I could get into professional school)!. At the risk of sounding like a complete idiot, I will tell you that there were multiple times I said, "Oh, that's where (fill in the state) is?!"

I had to cut a few schools that I was excited about from my list, but hey! My wife's happiness is definitely more important. I really, really want to avoid ending up in a city that she doesn't like.

Me too. Well worth it; spouses will be sacrificing a LOT (especially if there are kids to take care of) during med school, so better to keep them as happy as possible. 🙂

 

[Chip N Sawbones]

I still couldn't resist applying to the Mayo Clinic, though.

For nontrads, they're worth applying to. I got a LOR request from them despite my 3.1 GPA/32 MCAT, and only about a fifth of their applicants get that far. They rejected me after that, but they're still a school that takes much more than your LizzyM score into consideration. Now I have interviews at Nova and Western Lebanon. Should I go to the school named after an old Chevy, or the school that sounds like a Middle Eastern war zone?

 

[dsoz]

For nontrads, they're worth applying to. I got a LOR request from them despite my 3.1 GPA/32 MCAT, and only about a fifth of their applicants get that far. They rejected me after that, but they're still a school that takes much more than your LizzyM score into consideration. Now I have interviews at Nova and Western Lebanon. Should I go to the school named after an old Chevy, or the school that sounds like a Middle Eastern war zone?

The way I look at it is by the weather. At NOVA the weather is hot and muggy for about 4 months a year. Most people stay indoors and out of the heat. The rest of the year it is nice and people can enjoy the sunshine.

At COMP-NW, there is only three months where the sun shines and you can be outside enjoying it. The rest of the year it is cloudy and rainy. Not even rain like for an hour or so, but drizzle all day long and only get 1/4 to 1/2 inch. Nobody goes outside, and everyone is low on Vitamin D (or supplementing with 2000 IU a day).

Really, I am from Oregon. I would go to COMP Lebanon if offered, but I would LOVE to go to Ft. Lauderdale for four years...

Now if only one of them will process my secondary and send me an II.

My only condolence is that I have one II at LECOM-B next month. Florida Gulf Coast should be nice too. Hopefully no hurricanes come... I heard on the news that there may be one hitting Florida in the next week. YUCK! Not something that I would look forward to.

dsoz

 

[augeremt]

The way I look at it is by the weather. At NOVA the weather is hot and muggy for about 4 months a year. Most people stay indoors and out of the heat. The rest of the year it is nice and people can enjoy the sunshine.

At COMP-NW, there is only three months where the sun shines and you can be outside enjoying it. The rest of the year it is cloudy and rainy. Not even rain like for an hour or so, but drizzle all day long and only get 1/4 to 1/2 inch. Nobody goes outside, and everyone is low on Vitamin D (or supplementing with 2000 IU a day).

I like the way you think!

I'm glad I'm not the only one who takes weather into account when making these kinds of decisions. I'm not saying it's the deciding factor, but it's definitely an issue.

 

[jgalt42]

25 MD schools 6 DO schools. 2 invites so far from Nova and ATSU Arizona.

 

[MedPR]

Applying MD (24) and DO (9). AACOMAS verified 6/5, AMCAS verified 6/6.

I have submitted all of my MD secondaries except NYMC and haven't paid Touro-NV, haven't submitted PCOM, and haven't received Touro-NY. I didn't submit to NYMC because they require letters from my UG even though I graduated two years ago. As of today I have 3 DO interviews (AZCOM, DMU, NSU) and 1 MD interview (Drexel). I haven't been rejected from any DO schools yet, but I have been rejected from 3 MD schools (VCU, Tulane, Rosalind Franklin).

DO stats are 3.28s/3.26c/33Q
MD stats are 3.04s/3.00c/33Q

I am a URM.

 

[excitedtoapply]

Where-o-where are the rest of the schools? I haven't separated from my cell phone since COMP-NW started calling people (although realistically I shouldn't hear from them for a week or two). I have heard back from one school and now find myself refreshing my email every ten minutes!

 

[Chip N Sawbones]

I like the way you think!

I'm glad I'm not the only one who takes weather into account when making these kinds of decisions. I'm not saying it's the deciding factor, but it's definitely an issue.

After a winter in Fairbanks, Alaska, weather is very much a consideration for me. It gets so cold here that vodka will freeze solid if you leave a bottle outside. I liked Oregon's weather just fine though. Florida is hotter than I'd prefer.

I got another interview invite today, to Still. Now my interview invites are an old Chevy, a Middle Eastern war zone, and a device for cooking whiskey. It's a shame I didn't get invites from the condiment school (Mayo) or the tractor dealership (Case Western). Then I'd have a complete collection of invites from schools with weird names.

 

[BabyDoc86]

Applied to 2 MD and 7 DO schools. All secondaries submitted, 2 DO interviews next month. Most of my schools haven't even started sending the first round of II's yet.

 

[Girly X]

Applied to 23 MD schools. 3 interview invites so far and 3 schools have not issued secondaries yet 😱

 

[hopeful22213]

Applied to 25. 1 interview and 1 rejection so far.

 

[MedPR]

Updating.

24 MD applications. 4 rejections, 1 interview.
9 DO applications. 0 rejections, 3 secondaries not complete, 4 interviews.

 

[zoner]

do you guys think that very non traditional age has anything to do with not getting an early ii even when everything else is solid?

 

[MedPR]

do you guys think that very non traditional age has anything to do with not getting an early ii even when everything else is solid?

How solid is solid?

 

[zoner]

above average in all front

 

[Girly X]

do you guys think that very non traditional age has anything to do with not getting an early ii even when everything else is solid?

I'm still just an applicant but my guess is if you do a great job answering the why medicine/why now elephant in the room question throughout your app (and your reasoning makes great sense), I don't see why you should not get an acceptance before this is all over if the rest of your app is solid. Remember, we are only about a month or so into a year long process.

 

[zoner]

I'm still just an applicant but my guess is if you do a great job answering the why medicine/why now elephant in the room question throughout your app (and your reasoning makes great sense), I don't see why you should not get an acceptance before this is all over if the rest of your app is solid. Remember, we are only about a month or so into a year long process.

i understand that we are still very early, but i was just comparing my timeline with others. there is an applicant who has already gotten ii even when he applied to this specific school very late. how can that be unless there are so biased involved. granted, i don't know that person's exact stats, but still..

maybe i am getting too paranoid reading SDN. i should take a vacation from here 😀

 

[MedPR]

above average in all front

i understand that we are still very early, but i was just comparing my timeline with others. there is an applicant who has already gotten ii even when he applied to this specific school very late. how can that be unless there are so biased involved. granted, i don't know that person's exact stats, but still..

maybe i am getting too paranoid reading SDN. i should take a vacation from here 😀

Are you talking about DO, MD, or both? It would be more helpful if you listed your stats and ECs rather than just saying above average, but I understand if you'd like to keep things private.

 

[zoner]

Are you talking about DO, MD, or both? It would be more helpful if you listed your stats and ECs rather than just saying above average, but I understand if you'd like to keep things private.

trying to keep pvt

mostly DO here

got three ii, just don't understand why not more when i've clearly applied very early

 

[MedPR]

trying to keep pvt

mostly DO here

got three ii, just don't understand why not more when i've clearly applied very early

Well now you're just getting greedy 😉

dudliness and I have similar stats (he has a higher GPA, I have a higher MCAT) and while he has 11 interviews, I have 5 (4 DO, 1 MD). While we have different ECs, I think they're about equal in terms of "value" to ADCOMs. I don't know when he submitted, but I was complete on 6/5 and turned in all of my secondaries but 2 the day after I received them. Don't count on your age being the problem. It might just be the ADCOMs moving slowly.

 

[Girly X]

i understand that we are still very early, but i was just comparing my timeline with others. there is an applicant who has already gotten ii even when he applied to this specific school very late. how can that be unless there are so biased involved. granted, i don't know that person's exact stats, but still..

maybe i am getting too paranoid reading SDN. i should take a vacation from here 😀

Take heart in that not only do you not know someone's stats but we just don't know and can only speculate on how decisions to bring someone in for an interview are made. I guess that is why they say this process is a crapshoot. You play and hope to win.

 

[zoner]

Take heart in that not only do you not know someone's stats but we just don't know and can only speculate on how decisions to bring someone in for an interview are made. I guess that is why they say this process is a crapshoot. You play and hope to win.

i heard somewhere that DMU and ccom are two of the best, then how is it that i got a fast track ii there long time ago, but still no word from nsu or lecom b? it sure is crapshoot

 

[MedPR]

i heard somewhere that DMU and ccom are two of the best, then how is it that i got a fast track ii there long time ago, but still no word from nsu or lecom b? it sure is crapshoot

Fast track is based purely on stats from what I've been able to tell. DO is known for its more holistic application process. Your stats might be better than the other guy, but if his ECs outshine yours, he might get an interview invite even though you don't.

People with 4.0/40 don't get interviews everywhere either.

 

[wanderedtoolong]

22 MD apps submitted, all but one secondary in, 3 iis so far (including Michigan! totally unexpected and still bouncing off the walls!)

 

[Girly X]

22 MD apps submitted, all but one secondary in, 3 iis so far (including Michigan! totally unexpected and still bouncing off the walls!)

Congratulations!!🙂

 

[Justin Stuart]

What reasons does a school have to flat out deny an applicant? So long as he or she has good grades and good test scores, how do they make their decision on who to interview, who to accept, and who to deny? Or is it all just a random "luck of the draw" sort of thing?

 

[Girly X]

What reasons does a school have to flat out deny an applicant? So long as he or she has good grades and good test scores, how do they make their decision on who to interview, who to accept, and who to deny? Or is it all just a random "luck of the draw" sort of thing?

I think they know what they are looking for. So when they see a clear match they jump on it. Some they are not sure about to start but will come around after they see what they are working with in their applicant pool for the cycle. I have a feeling they can tell if an applicant is picking them as a safety...hence the quick rejections you see for folks who have good stats that are sometimes above the school's average matriculant.

 

[Justin Stuart]

I assume each school receives several thousand applications starting in May or June. Do they review them first-come-first-serve? Do they sort them alphabetically? Do they sort them by MCAT score? Who do they review first? Who do they invite to an interview first? Or do they review everybody's application, and only then start offering invites?

If I were an AdCom, I would first find all of the really good candidates and try to "lock them in" to my school before someone else gives them a better offer. Next I would bring in all of the questionable candidates for an interview, weed out the losers, and put several hundred not-so-good candidates on a waitlist to make them think they had a shot (and to give me a sizable pool to pick from last-minute if need be). Finally, I would interview all of the moderately good candidates and fill my class roster as much as possible from that group.

How do you think the real AdComs do it?

 

[zoner]

ii @ DMU, CCOM & AZCOM

rejection @ RVUCOM

 

[phant0m0o0o]

Applied to 18 schools. cGPA 3.04, sGPA 3.17. 31L MCAT.

1 rejection from EVMS presecondary just now.
1 II Texas A&M. Go Aggies 🙂

 

[abolt18]

FINALLY!!!!!!! My committee letter was finished today and all my letters were uploaded to Virtual Evals!!! I had all my secondaries done a month and a half ago! Can't believe it's taken them this long. Looks like schools will finally start looking at my apps. I know this is a good thing, but it makes me anxious at the same time, mostly because just as I may begin getting ii's, I also may begin getting rejections OUCH.

10 DO
7 secondaries completed (saving money on the last couple unless I need them)
1 II at NSU and hopefully more to come.

 

[vc7777]

I assume each school receives several thousand applications starting in May or June. Do they review them first-come-first-serve? Do they sort them alphabetically? Do they sort them by MCAT score? Who do they review first? Who do they invite to an interview first? Or do they review everybody's application, and only then start offering invites?

If I were an AdCom, I would first find all of the really good candidates and try to "lock them in" to my school before someone else gives them a better offer. Next I would bring in all of the questionable candidates for an interview, weed out the losers, and put several hundred not-so-good candidates on a waitlist to make them think they had a shot (and to give me a sizable pool to pick from last-minute if need be). Finally, I would interview all of the moderately good candidates and fill my class roster as much as possible from that group.

How do you think the real AdComs do it?

Every adcom is different. The culture, resources, applicant pool size and history at a school will all factor into the adcom's methodology. This isn't a standardized process, and there are several philosophies (strategies) to converge on the "best" students - you have correctly guessed some of the pieces in your post.

I, for one, am glad for this seemingly chaotic process. If every school did it the same, there would be no diversity - including no nontrads. But the down side is that there is thurs terrible uncertainty for the applicants.

Getting back to appreciating HOW adcoms do it, I think it is important to note it is actually very complex. That is, the devil is in the details. I could ask rhetorical questions of you: what if all the "good candidates" wait to apply until the end of the season? Would you hold off on all acceptances until you have a handle on the entire pool of applicants? To partially answer this, here is some food for thought: Given two identical candidates, interviewed on the same day who both end up with multiple offers to multiple schools...do you think the one accepted earlier to "your" medical school is more likely to show up to the Fall Orientation?

Most schools have limited interviewer and interview dates. Limited reviewers, too. Scarce resources means you need to make some decisions. It just isn't a simple set of rules.

How do you deal with attrition? Competitive and desirable candidates for one school will most certainly have many other options. Do you over-accept and wait for applicants to decline to whittle down the class size?

What about the nuisances? What about gender, race, educational, economic, social background? Do these factor in? How do you ensure your class isn't monolithic?
Scholarships? Of course they are great incentive tools. But do they have stipulations - strings attached? What about legacy - you are at an old institution with lots of faculty and alumni with children applying? What do you when they apply pressure to admit their kids?

I suspect that being a Dean of Admissions is like being the master wine taster who must pull from multiple barrels of wine and blend them to deliver a final product that is consistent year after year. It is probably as much a technical endeavor as it is an art.

And on that note; worry about being the best, juiciest grape you can be! Yes, you can hope and dream that you ultimately get onto that bottle of pinot nior. But be happy if you end up in that wine-in-a-box. Just don't end up on the winery floor.

Sent from my phone

 

[Girly X]

Great response!

 

[wanderedtoolong]

Great timing for this conversation- just received my first rejection this morning from BU- certainly not the biggest reach I applied to. I understand that the process is a crapshoot and every school does it differently, but I wish there were a better way to predict which schools are more likely to give us a close look. Everyone would be spared a lot of time and expense if "apply broadly" meant 10 schools instead of 20. Each school would have fewer apps to sort through and perhaps the process would become less "luck of the draw". I guess what I'm saying is I wish most schools still screened pre-secondary. Why did they move away from that? Just the $$? Seems like it, especially for schools that have no additional essays on their secondaries.

 

[vc7777]

Well, I don't think secondary fees are as "nefarious" as some people assume - Yes, most medical schools do not have huge recruiting/admission budgets, and many use volunteer time (including my school). Indeed, there are significant opportunity costs involved in admissions. But I think there is no way collecting these fees would even put a dent into those costs.

If I was designing an admission strategy, I would be loath to have two screening passes. I know for a fact that great candidates sometimes don't have great numbers. And Vice-versa. If I was really acting in the interest of the school, I wouldn't use a numbers-based pre-screen.

No, unless you are doing a straight numbers-based "pre-screen" you are going to have to a human being crack open the application and read it. Sounds like a logistics nightmare to me at that stage: Why? Because if you are going to assign a busy physician or scientist an application, physically or electronically send it to them, and have them open up and write up a formal report or something else- you might as well have them read it in its entirety and make an interview invitation recommendation.

So - if you are like me and loath to use straight numbers to screen, and you recognize that there is little time/money "saved" by pre-screening - what can you do? Why, a fee, of course. Think how many people would apply to every school if there was no additional cost. With no "down-side" people would apply to EVERY school. That's no good.

Having a nominal fee prevents the adcom from being inundated with applications. It is ideal? Nope. Sure there are waivers for people who qualify. But waivers require additional effort, and that's probably not fair. But the fees are a proxy for pre-screening. Think of it as the alternative to a pure numbers-based screening tool. It is sort of the lesser of two evils.

Now that's my two cents. I might be off base. Would I pay the fees again even knowing I was rejected a bunch of places? Absolutely. At least I was given a shot - however slim. Better than auto-rejects.

 

[Justin Stuart]

What numbers does a typical adcom use for the pre-screen?

 

[DocHHopeful]

Congrats on the interviews everyone!

Hi guys, could use some input-
I'm pretty ashamed to be writing this. In completing my first ii, I realized that I left my first FT job (as a research economist) off my work/extracurriculars AAMC app. I refer to my experience at that job in my PS, and it is also significant in that I started there working 40-50 hours a week while still an undergrad (yes, it affected my grades).

I know I can't change it. I still can't believe it. I haven't slept in 3 days since I realized my error. How do I move forward? Is it a big enough error that I should consider just not applying this cycle? Am I saved by the fact that many secondaries ask about these experiences, or doomed since it will not be verified by the AAMC app?

Glad everyone seems to be doing well and keeping up on their ii's though! 🙂

 

[Justin Stuart]

Nothing you can do about it now. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and keep moving forward. Its moments like this that build character and make you stronger.

 

[Chip N Sawbones]

Hi guys, could use some input-
I'm pretty ashamed to be writing this. In completing my first ii, I realized that I left my first FT job (as a research economist) off my work/extracurriculars AAMC app. I refer to my experience at that job in my PS, and it is also significant in that I started there working 40-50 hours a week while still an undergrad (yes, it affected my grades).

I know I can't change it. I still can't believe it. I haven't slept in 3 days since I realized my error. How do I move forward? Is it a big enough error that I should consider just not applying this cycle? Am I saved by the fact that many secondaries ask about these experiences, or doomed since it will not be verified by the AAMC app?

Glad everyone seems to be doing well and keeping up on their ii's though! 🙂

This won't be your last scary moment in this app cycle, so you'd better get used to them, and find a less-stressed response than not sleeping for three days. I doubt it will make much difference; adcoms don't have the time to scrutinize the details of every one of 10,000 applications. The only thing to do now is wait and see how many secondaries you get, and answer the questions in their silly essays. Don't mention that you forgot to include the job in the primary application, just give a brief description of the job any time you mention it in an essay. Now go get some sleep.

 

[wanderedtoolong]

Well, I don't think secondary fees are as "nefarious" as some people assume - Yes, most medical schools do not have huge recruiting/admission budgets, and many use volunteer time (including my school). Indeed, there are significant opportunity costs involved in admissions. But I think there is no way collecting these fees would even put a dent into those costs.

If I was designing an admission strategy, I would be loath to have two screening passes. I know for a fact that great candidates sometimes don't have great numbers. And Vice-versa. If I was really acting in the interest of the school, I wouldn't use a numbers-based pre-screen.

No, unless you are doing a straight numbers-based "pre-screen" you are going to have to a human being crack open the application and read it. Sounds like a logistics nightmare to me at that stage: Why? Because if you are going to assign a busy physician or scientist an application, physically or electronically send it to them, and have them open up and write up a formal report or something else- you might as well have them read it in its entirety and make an interview invitation recommendation.

So - if you are like me and loath to use straight numbers to screen, and you recognize that there is little time/money "saved" by pre-screening - what can you do? Why, a fee, of course. Think how many people would apply to every school if there was no additional cost. With no "down-side" people would apply to EVERY school. That's no good.

Having a nominal fee prevents the adcom from being inundated with applications. It is ideal? Nope. Sure there are waivers for people who qualify. But waivers require additional effort, and that's probably not fair. But the fees are a proxy for pre-screening. Think of it as the alternative to a pure numbers-based screening tool. It is sort of the lesser of two evils.

Now that's my two cents. I might be off base. Would I pay the fees again even knowing I was rejected a bunch of places? Absolutely. At least I was given a shot - however slim. Better than auto-rejects.

Fair point- $100 is certainly enough to give me serious pause before adding a school.

 

[vc7777]

What numbers does a typical adcom use for the pre-screen?

No clue. Schools have no reason to tell anybody either or even IF they have a screen. You will not find it on-line from a reliable source. And it is subject to change without notice.

 

[NTF]

Best of luck to all the pre-meds for this cycle. Seems like yesterday I was doing the same thing. I'll be joining you on pins & needles this year as I'll be doing my residency applications as well.

GO NON-TRADS!

 

[vc7777]

Best of luck to all the pre-meds for this cycle. Seems like yesterday I was doing the same thing. I'll be joining you on pins & needles this year as I'll be doing my residency applications as well.

GO NON-TRADS!

Good Luck NTF - three weeks or so, right?