2015 MSAR released

[circulus vitios]

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I think people are right when they say the salaries are decent but when you put all the time and money in then your opinions will change....trust me. So far, I am in 4 years of undergrad, 4 med school, 3 IM residency, 3 cardiology fellowship, 1 interventional, with a potential additional year for structural heart. All while being paid <70K and saving lives. We as physicians sell ourselves short/ Now I know this comes with the job but with the downward pressure on salaries you wonder why people are going into it. In all, I would be 16 years post high school to train to become an interventional cardiologist who can perform lifesaving and life altering complex procedures.

Is $315,000 worth the time, effort, and lifestyle? IMO, absolutely not. Hence, why I am currently searching for jobs that pay starting to >350K which means I need to move to another geographical location.

Unless you went to HPY/Stanford/MIT, it's not like you could make "$315k" a year after 16 years.

(Average cardiology salaries are closer to like $400-450k/year. http://murdockconsultingmd.com/blog/view/mgma-2012-primary-care-comp-survey )

 

[QAsPsych]

I think you guys are discussing additional factors why people pursue medicine, which are valid (long-run effects). What I am getting at is why is the competition getting harsher now than it was previously (short-run).

Law school has lost a lot of the positive financial outcomes and it has become public knowledge; similarly, a lot of people are becoming aware of the problems in higher ed with increasing numbers of people doing adjunct work and decreasing numbers of tenure track positions available, even while more PhDs are produced. Research outside of academia in the hard sciences is facing the same problem. Medicine has maintained the excellent outcomes. Thus, many intelligent people who are motivated to do high levels of education are probably filtering into medicine. Just a guess.

 

[IMDoc607]

You get the privilege of spending 16 years learning about the subject that fascinates you the most. You get to be surrounded by extremely intelligent people with similar interests who continue to push you to better yourself. After this you become an expert in your field where you are respected and looked highly upon and make an absolutely absurd amount of money.

Or you can go into investment banking or law. You spend 16 years working your way to the top making about $100k salary. Your sole purpose is now to make rich executives even more money.

Why is this even an argument? What's to decide?

I guess it depends on what you consider an absurd amount of money. I am not one of those that feel I should make millions of dollars. I rather make less and cure the sick than to make millions. However, at the rate things are going who knows what the future will hold.

Your first sentence made me disregard your whole post though. Not because I am trying to be a jerk, but because you have to understand the journey. You are working sometimes >48 hours as a fellow making crap money and then to come out into a hostile environment. So no, I do not think 325K is an absurd amount of money. And before your lecture me on the current healthcare environment, I am in a field that is under extreme scrutiny. If any pre-meds knew what its like out there they would want to vomit.

An interventional cardiologist should make EASY 800K. You speak like a premed....just like I did when I was at your stage. I promise you your feelings will change 5 years into training while your debt grows quicker than you can pay its interest. And if doesn't, you're just a great person or naive.

 

[IMDoc607]

Unless you went to HPY/Stanford/MIT, it's not like you could make "$315k" a year after 16 years.

(Average cardiology salaries are closer to like $400-450k/year. http://murdockconsultingmd.com/blog/view/mgma-2012-primary-care-comp-survey )

Good point.....but you won't be 200K in debt working for $20 an hour. My current hourly rate is $27 for 40 hours. I do 2 24 hour calls a week.

 

[606577]

I guess it depends on what you consider an absurd amount of money. I am not one of those that feel I should make millions of dollars. I rather make less and cure the sick than to make millions. However, at the rate things are going who knows what the future will hold.

Your first sentence made me disregard your whole post though. Not because I am trying to be a jerk, but because you have to understand the journey. You are working sometimes >48 hours as a fellow making crap money and then to come out into a hostile environment. So no, I do not think 325K is an absurd amount of money. And before your lecture me on the current healthcare environment, I am in a field that is under extreme scrutiny. If any pre-meds knew what its like out there they would want to vomit.

An interventional cardiologist should make EASY 800K. You speak like a premed....just like I did when I was at your stage. I promise you your feelings will change 5 years into training while your debt grows quicker than you can pay its interest. And if doesn't, you're just a great person or naive.

I understand that it is a very stressful job with extreme responsibility, but isn't that what you signed up for?

Are you really saying you are not happy with a $300k salary? What can you possibly do with $800k a year!? I was raised on a household income of $60k and we were comfortable. I can't even imagine $200k. I hope I am not feeding trolls...

 

[medic86]

I understand that it is a very stressful job with extreme responsibility, but isn't that what you signed up for?

Are you really saying you are not happy with a $300k salary? What can you possibly do with $800k a year!? I was raised on a household income of $60k and we were comfortable. I can't even imagine $200k. I hope I am not feeding trolls...

Yes, that's what he's saying.

 

[moop]

Oh I totally misunderstood you. My bad. Your comment is more interesting than I thought. Makes a lot of sense actually. It puts lower and lower-middle class people at a big disadvantage, I think. But what are you gonna do?

This is old news just reinstituted. Grad school apps (in all fields) spike during recession and the subsequent recovery years. Backtrack to pre-Internet bubble, and no one was applying to med school; Wall Street was the cutthroat industry at the time. I'd give it a couple more years before med school apps fall back down again.

 

[moop]

We are no longer in a recession. The economy isn't great, but we aren't in recession. Income, however has grown inproportionally with the top 1% earners gaining 95% of growth over the past 4-5 years. Regardless of the technical vernacular, most middle class people still feel economically weak and that should drive the kind of admissions changes you mention. It would be interesting to see the demographics of accepted students shift if the middle class begins to generate more competitive applicants. I agree that there is an entitlement dead zone that the middle class tends to fall into.

As someone who uses Piketty and Saez data in his research, this is 👍 👍 👍 😍 😍

 

[GoPelicans]

Are you really saying you are not happy with a $300k salary? What can you possibly do with $800k a year!? I was raised on a household income of $60k and we were comfortable. I can't even imagine $200k. I hope I am not feeding trolls...

People like him are the reason that laypeople despise doctors.

 

[medic86]

People like him are the reason that laypeople despise doctors.

Yeah, exactly. Laypeople.

This is the point he's trying to make (I believe): for 16 years of training and a piddling salary (comparatively) that can barely pay for student loans during that time, $300k/year isn't worth it.

 

[moop]

I guess it depends on what you consider an absurd amount of money. I am not one of those that feel I should make millions of dollars. I rather make less and cure the sick than to make millions. However, at the rate things are going who knows what the future will hold.

You are basically saying:
"I don't want millions because I would rather cure people. I just want $800k. That's not millions; $315k just isn't enough for me with all the tradeoffs THAT I KNOWINGLY MADE AND WAS NOT FORCED TO MAKE OVER A PERIOD OF 10+ YEARS."

That is not illegal, but don't expect any love from anyone with that attitude, regardless of how many people you save. (P.S. Your argument is similar the Wall Street gurus make: "I've been busting my balls for 16 years giving it my all in a cutthroat industry helping companies merge and make business deals that feed the world economy, so my total compensation should be $10m, not $5m. I don't want to make billions. I just want to make more millions.")

No one forced you to put out that much to become a physician. You could've stopped easily halfway and switched to something else lucrative that can help a lot of people. Grow up.

 

[medic86]

You are basically saying:
"I don't want millions because I would rather cure people. I just want $800k. That's not millions; $315k just isn't enough for me with all the tradeoffs THAT I KNOWINGLY MADE AND WAS NOT FORCED TO MAKE OVER A PERIOD OF 10+ YEARS."

That is not illegal, but don't expect any love from anyone with that attitude, regardless of how many people you save. (P.S. Your argument is similar the Wall Street gurus make: "I've been busting my balls for 16 years giving it my all in a cutthroat industry helping companies merge and make business deals that feed the world economy, so my total compensation should be $10m, not $5m. I don't want to make billions. I just want to make more millions.")

No one forced you to put out that much to become a physician. You could've stopped easily halfway and switched to something else lucrative that can help a lot of people. Grow up.

To be fair, he never stated he wanted $800k/year.

It should be noted that there are specialties that require less time training, doesn't demand as much skill, and leaves you with some quality of life when all that training is said-and-done (and, after 16 years, could play close to that reported $315k/year salary). On the other hand, he did choose to follow this route... but even so, it still brings up a fair point in regard to the salaries of all the varying medical specialties: sometimes the salary of one specialty just doesn't make sense in comparison to another specialty.

 

[moisne]

I can see this being true with things like income (ppl making hundreds of millions will skew the data) and therefore median being the more important number. But MCAT is capped at 0-45, it's impossible to skew that much.

https://www.aamc.org/download/321508/data/2013factstable24.pdf

Also, the average is lower than median (31.3 according to table 17 average and 33 according to MSAR median), which means there should be a lot of extremely low scores. The above table doesn't support that. The only thing I can see is that MSAR counts multiple acceptance more than once whereas table 17 calculate average by only count each person once.

It was just a statistics example. I didn't look at the number. Perhaps a few people did realllllyyy bad. Again, few is referring to a few hundred or thousand.

 

[gyngyn]

We should all be aware how common burn-out is and be generous in our judgement of those who may be suffering.

 

[IMDoc607]

I understand that it is a very stressful job with extreme responsibility, but isn't that what you signed up for?

Are you really saying you are not happy with a $300k salary? What can you possibly do with $800k a year!? I was raised on a household income of $60k and we were comfortable. I can't even imagine $200k. I hope I am not feeding trolls...

Absolutely what I signed up and love it. However, doesn't mean I have to accept being underpaid. While I don't expect to nor care to make 800 even tho it's possible is some places I just think you need to take the big picture into account. I'm not trying to bicker but just give you an insight into the other side. Long nights on call constantly awake for days saving lives.....why shouldn't that be paid extremely well after you have been paid so poorly as a trainee?

All that said, I really do love being a doctor and feel privileged to be one.

 

[IMDoc607]

People like him are the reason that laypeople despise doctors.

Actually I would be happy with 300K....I'm just saying I feel we as physicians are undervalued. Give me a job for 300 doing what I love and I'll sign.

 

[Espadaleader]

It shouldn't be taboo to discuss physicians earnings. What the average doctor makes in one year is what my family made in 15 years. Trust me I get it. But It is important to understand the issues. Medical school debt is increasing as salaries remain stagnant. Physicians still make enough to justify medical school but if things continue on this trajectory I don't think so.12 years ago the COA of most private schools was about 40k. Now the tuition for the same schools are nearly 80k.

https://www.aavmc.org/data/files/me...ors/2014-01/medical education bubble nejm.pdf

 

[IMDoc607]

You are basically saying:
"I don't want millions because I would rather cure people. I just want $800k. That's not millions; $315k just isn't enough for me with all the tradeoffs THAT I KNOWINGLY MADE AND WAS NOT FORCED TO MAKE OVER A PERIOD OF 10+ YEARS."

That is not illegal, but don't expect any love from anyone with that attitude, regardless of how many people you save. (P.S. Your argument is similar the Wall Street gurus make: "I've been busting my balls for 16 years giving it my all in a cutthroat industry helping companies merge and make business deals that feed the world economy, so my total compensation should be $10m, not $5m. I don't want to make billions. I just want to make more millions.")

No one forced you to put out that much to become a physician. You could've stopped easily halfway and switched to something else lucrative that can help a lot of people. Grow up.

Jeez, I was just commenting on how someone said earlier that the financial reward is declining yet apps are increasing. No reason to throw insults and chastise me from your college dorm room. I can give a rats ass if I ever made that much money. In fact, I would donate for free to those that can't get healthcare if I was pulling in that dough.

However, you're doing that exact thing I despise in someone who's not a physician.....judging us. You tell me who would wake up for a week straight opening arteries and saving lives for a payback that they feel is not worth it. >375 and I would be happy.

 

[IMDoc607]

It shouldn't be taboo to discuss physicians earnings. What the average doctor makes in one year is what my family made in 15 years. Trust me I get it. But It is important to understand the issues. Medical school debt is increasing as salaries remain stagnant. Physicians still make enough to justify medical school but if things continue on this trajectory I don't think so.12 years ago the COA of most private schools was about 40k. Now the tuition for the same schools are nearly 80k.

https://www.aavmc.org/data/files/members only/board of directors/2014-01/medical education bubble nejm.pdf

thank you someone with common sense.

 

[IMDoc607]

Yeah, exactly. Laypeople.

This is the point he's trying to make (I believe): for 16 years of training and a piddling salary (comparatively) that can barely pay for student loans during that time, $300k/year isn't worth it.

My inlaws and friends in other professions cannot believe how much work we as physicians do and openly say we arnt paid enough. My point?.....most people including the government don't realize how much work it takes to become a physician. IM boards, cardio boards, nuke boards, echo boards, CT boards, interventional boards.

And then MOC!!!!!! I think you guys are just missing the point. There comes a time when it's not worth. Thank god I won't be during that time and thank god you guys are so altruistic. Can't wait for your bills pile up 😉

 

[IMDoc607]

You are basically saying:
"I don't want millions because I would rather cure people. I just want $800k. That's not millions; $315k just isn't enough for me with all the tradeoffs THAT I KNOWINGLY MADE AND WAS NOT FORCED TO MAKE OVER A PERIOD OF 10+ YEARS."

That is not illegal, but don't expect any love from anyone with that attitude, regardless of how many people you save. (P.S. Your argument is similar the Wall Street gurus make: "I've been busting my balls for 16 years giving it my all in a cutthroat industry helping companies merge and make business deals that feed the world economy, so my total compensation should be $10m, not $5m. I don't want to make billions. I just want to make more millions.")

No one forced you to put out that much to become a physician. You could've stopped easily halfway and switched to something else lucrative that can help a lot of people. Grow up.

Ok big shot.....let's do the math

200K school loans at now 8% interest
$45,000 resident salary

ABIM boards $1300

Fellow $56,000 salary
ABIM cardio boards: $2,345
Interventional boards: $2,830
Echo: $995
Nuke: $995
Cardiac CT: $925


Don't forget that during all that time you're accruing interest.....this doesn't concern you in the least especially with the way medicine is headed?

If it doesn't, you have issues.

 

[BamaNicole]

People like him are the reason that laypeople despise doctors.

I can't even fathom making money. I was raised on a minimum wage......we never broke 20k. I've never cared for or thought about money.

 

[circulus vitios]

We are no longer in a recession. The economy isn't great, but we aren't in recession. Income, however has grown inproportionally with the top 1% earners gaining 95% of growth over the past 4-5 years. Regardless of the technical vernacular, most middle class people still feel economically weak and that should drive the kind of admissions changes you mention. It would be interesting to see the demographics of accepted students shift if the middle class begins to generate more competitive applicants. I agree that there is an entitlement dead zone that the middle class tends to fall into.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business...ryone-got-the-top-1-percent-all-wrong/359862/

 

[awildfandango]

Can someone explain to me why the MSAR gives the accepted median statistics instead of the matriculating median statistics? Or do they mean the same thing? It's hard for me to believe that the U Toledo's median student's science gpa is a 3.8 and MCAT is a 33. If that is the case, I've lost all hope in the world.

 

[circulus vitios]

Can someone explain to me why the MSAR gives the accepted median statistics instead of the matriculating median statistics? Or do they mean the same thing? It's hard for me to believe that the U Toledo's median student's science gpa is a 3.8 and MCAT is a 33. If that is the case, I've lost all hope in the world.

MSAR gives accepted data.

Lower-ranking schools will accept students with 4.0/45 stats. Those same students probably won't go to a lower-ranking school, so there can be a large difference between accepted and matriculated numbers. I'm guessing U Toledo's matriculant numbers are somewhere around 3.7/31.

 

[moop]

http://www.theatlantic.com/business...ryone-got-the-top-1-percent-all-wrong/359862/

Yeah, that's a great point. Hacker and Pierson wrote this up in their 2010 book, "Winner-Take-All Politics," so it's old news for those of us in the field, but apparently not so otherwise.

The bolded in your quote is new stuff from Saez (2013). The general point is the same.

 

[awildfandango]

MSAR gives accepted data.

Lower-ranking schools will accept students with 4.0/45 stats. Those same students probably won't go to a lower-ranking school, so there can be a large difference between accepted and matriculated numbers. I'm guessing U Toledo's matriculant numbers are somewhere around 3.7/31.

Ok that makes sense why some of the schools stats seem a bit inflated. How do I see the matriculating data? I feel like those stats would be the most useful.

 

[gyngyn]

Ok that makes sense why some of the schools stats seem a bit inflated. How do I see the matriculating data? I feel like those stats would be the most useful.

Only if you get in.

 

[darkjedi]

I honestly think accepted data is actually a more useful metric than matriculated data. You are competing for acceptances, not necessarily what's left over once everyone's decided. Just because someone with better stats accepted a seat somewhere else doesn't mean he/she didn't still take an acceptance that could have otherwise gone to someone else. Schools expect a certain yield and so therefore only extend a certain number of acceptances. Using accepted data is a more reasonable metric, even if it is somewhat higher than matriculated data.

 

[Gregor Wiesmann]

This is why I will be applying to Taco Bell.......their average accepted MCAT is only a 29

 

[circulus vitios]

Ok that makes sense why some of the schools stats seem a bit inflated. How do I see the matriculating data? I feel like those stats would be the most useful.

MSAR doesn't report matriculant data. I believe US News does, but their data is always outdated. You could always check U Toledo's website for a class profile -- many med schools list the average GPA and MCAT of their incoming class.

 

[IMDoc607]

You are basically saying:
"I don't want millions because I would rather cure people. I just want $800k. That's not millions; $315k just isn't enough for me with all the tradeoffs THAT I KNOWINGLY MADE AND WAS NOT FORCED TO MAKE OVER A PERIOD OF 10+ YEARS."

That is not illegal, but don't expect any love from anyone with that attitude, regardless of how many people you save. (P.S. Your argument is similar the Wall Street gurus make: "I've been busting my balls for 16 years giving it my all in a cutthroat industry helping companies merge and make business deals that feed the world economy, so my total compensation should be $10m, not $5m. I don't want to make billions. I just want to make more millions.")

No one forced you to put out that much to become a physician. You could've stopped easily halfway and switched to something else lucrative that can help a lot of people. Grow up.

Amazing how you were so quick to lash me but when I explained myself further you now have nothing to say.

 

[IMDoc607]

People like him are the reason that laypeople despise doctors.

Same thing goes for you.....in your almighty wisdom of absolute ZERO experience in medicine please tell me why I am so wrong almighty premed.

 

[IMDoc607]

To be fair, he never stated he wanted $800k/year.

It should be noted that there are specialties that require less time training, doesn't demand as much skill, and leaves you with some quality of life when all that training is said-and-done (and, after 16 years, could play close to that reported $315k/year salary). On the other hand, he did choose to follow this route... but even so, it still brings up a fair point in regard to the salaries of all the varying medical specialties: sometimes the salary of one specialty just doesn't make sense in comparison to another specialty.

Cardiology is second highest paid field....what field doesn't require close to that training that makes close to that money?

GI......no...pretty much Same length of training
Ortho: after fellowship no same length
Radiology: maybe 2 years shorter
Heme/Onc: same amount minus year or two
Derm? Probably your only choice

You guys are speaking with NO practical experience.

 

[Frazier]

Amazing how you were so quick to lash me but when I explained myself further you now have nothing to say.

Same thing goes for you.....in your almighty wisdom of absolute ZERO experience in medicine please tell me why I am so wrong almighty premed.

I imagine it is very frustrating to hear opinions like the ones you quoted -- especially when coming from individuals that have not yet even begun to truly experience the training you have already completed.

That said, perhaps it's healthier to let it just roll off your back. Different people; different opinions. Opinions change quick with experience...I imagine life has enough stress in it already. No need for extra aggravation weighing you down. Right?

 

[IMDoc607]

You are basically saying:
"I don't want millions because I would rather cure people. I just want $800k. That's not millions; $315k just isn't enough for me with all the tradeoffs THAT I KNOWINGLY MADE AND WAS NOT FORCED TO MAKE OVER A PERIOD OF 10+ YEARS."

That is not illegal, but don't expect any love from anyone with that attitude, regardless of how many people you save. (P.S. Your argument is similar the Wall Street gurus make: "I've been busting my balls for 16 years giving it my all in a cutthroat industry helping companies merge and make business deals that feed the world economy, so my total compensation should be $10m, not $5m. I don't want to make billions. I just want to make more millions.")

No one forced you to put out that much to become a physician. You could've stopped easily halfway and switched to something else lucrative that can help a lot of people. Grow up.

Amazing how quick you were to jump down my throat but when I laid out my case you all of a sudden stfu. Maybe you realized you're the one that needs to grow up.

 

[IMDoc607]

I imagine it is very frustrating to hear opinions like the ones you quoted -- especially when coming from individuals that have not yet even begun to truly experience the training you have already completed.

That said, perhaps it's healthier to let it just roll off your back. Different people; different opinions. Opinions change quick with experience...I imagine life has enough stress in it already. No need for extra aggravation weighing you down. Right?

You're right but it actually angers me when someone has the balls to tell me to "grow up" when all they have done is......nothing.

 

[Frazier]

You're right but it actually angers me when someone has the balls to tell me to "grow up" when all they have done is......nothing.

Hell yeah. But, we are all prob guilty of doing something similar at least once upon a time. I remember I thought I had med school all figured out as a pre-med...HA.

With gained introspection, now I don't try to get ahead of myself with explaining what other people go through, what their time is worth, or what they should be happy doing, etc... Because most likely I'm prob wrong (unless I've done and experienced it already myself).

So when you come into the pre-med forum, it is a given that everyone is going to have an opinion about everything -- as is natural for anyone. But, given the population, they will have zero experience with medical training. So you run the constant risk of getting pissed off when they share their opinions.

But, it's okay...because opinions change with time, with sacrifices, with experience.

So for all I know, someone that comes off has having opposite thoughts as me now might pull a 180 given enough time.

Try not to let it anger you because resident/fellow/attending insight is valuable to this subforum...if things get under your skin you might not participate as much in the future. Which would be detrimental to the community as a whole.

None of this is new insight for you; you know it all already. Just a friendly reminder, to relax, lower that BP, hell and maybe live longer 😉.

 

[IMDoc607]

Hell yeah. But, we are all prob guilty of doing something similar at least once upon a time. I remember I thought I had med school all figured out as a pre-med...HA.

With gained introspection, now I don't try to get ahead of myself with explaining what other people go through, what their time is worth, or what they should be happy doing, etc... Because most likely I'm prob wrong (unless I've done and experienced it already myself).

So when you come into the pre-med forum, it is a given that everyone is going to have an opinion about everything -- as is natural for anyone. But, given the population, they will have zero experience with medical training. So you run the constant risk of getting pissed off when they share their opinions.

But, it's okay...because opinions change with time, with sacrifices, with experience.

So for all I know, someone that comes off has having opposite thoughts as me now might pull a 180 given enough time.

Try not to let it anger you because resident/fellow/attending insight is valuable to this subforum...if things get under your skin you might not participate as much in the future. Which would be detrimental to the community as a whole.

None of this is new insight for you; you know it all already. Just a friendly reminder, to relax, lower that BP, hell and maybe live longer 😉.

Again you're right.... Was thinking of this as I was just placing an intra aortic balloon pump for refractory angina in a patient with an active MI. Yet I should feel bad for wanting to make a good living LOL

Best of luck to you

 

[Psai]

It's funny to watch premeds without a clue try to tell a cardiology fellow how to derive professional satisfaction. It's always the same ignorant arguments about being around your amazing peers, making way more than the median income and the joys of patient care. "You knew what you were signing up for" lol the most patient care most of you have is changing sheets and bringing people blankets for 2 hours a week. You have no idea what's going on in medicine and the stresses placed on physicians.

"I can't even fathom making money. I was raised on a minimum wage......we never broke 20k. I've never cared for or thought about money." cool story bro, I'm sure that your parents were sitting around not caring about money either. Just kidding, they were sheltering your dumb ass from the realities of life while they chose between fixing your 15 year old car and paying the bills on time.

It's not about the dollar amount, it's about the hours you put in, the crap you put up with, the responsibilities you take and the expertise you bring to the table. All you see is "oohhhh 6 figure salary I'm gonna be holier than thou because I grew up poor and I don't need money" this is the real world. When you see that -$400,000 in your bank account at 7% interest even though you're working 70 hour a week and letters demanding that you pay it off you will change your tune. You're starting out with negative money in your 30s with patients demanding perfection but don't want to pay for it while hospital administrators and insurance companies tell you what to do. You've never dealt with a patient that wants you to cure their diabetes but still sucks down 2 L bottles of cola even after having a few toes removed. You're probably moving around every 4 years or so with the added stress of applying to different programs and hoping that someone takes you and you don't even have time to build much of a support system. It's a lonely path and most of you have no idea what it's like.

 

[DermViser]

You get the privilege of spending 16 years learning about the subject that fascinates you the most. You get to be surrounded by extremely intelligent people with similar interests who continue to push you to better yourself. After this you become an expert in your field where you are respected and looked highly upon and make an absolutely absurd amount of money.

Or you can go into investment banking or law. You spend 16 years working your way to the top making about $100k salary. Your sole purpose is now to make rich executives even more money.

Why is this even an argument? What's to decide?

You seriously are a delusional premed with no life experience.

 

[DermViser]

I understand that it is a very stressful job with extreme responsibility, but isn't that what you signed up for?

Are you really saying you are not happy with a $300k salary? What can you possibly do with $800k a year!? I was raised on a household income of $60k and we were comfortable. I can't even imagine $200k. I hope I am not feeding trolls...

 

[Tommyguns89]

You seriously are a delusional premed with no life experience.

I cringed myself when I read that. That being said, of all the most vocal people complaining about medicine(and I am not referring to the Dr. that posted here), how many of them have the experience of working 10 hour days in the hot sun or any type of intensive labor? I get that part of medicine will suck hard, but that is part of life if you have to work for living. I understand the temptation to compare yourself to those you think have it better than you(maybe high level computer programmers and bankers?) but its also probably good to compare yourself to those who are working long hard jobs without any payoff at all waiting for them other than the pleasure of being tossed aside once their bodies stop working.

 

[phunky]

Why is the MSAR thread all about physician salaries? Can we get back on track?

 

[Boolean]

Why is the MSAR thread all about physician salaries? Can we get back on track?

The discussion lead into comparative fields and salaries as we examined the growing average barriers to entry for medicine (MCAT, cost, etc).
Getting back on track, eh, not much left to be said. Can't really speak of too much when not everyone has a copy of the MSAR.

 

[phunky]

The discussion lead into comparative fields and salaries as we examined the growing average barriers to entry for medicine (MCAT, cost, etc).
Getting back on track, eh, not much left to be said. Can't really speak of too much when not everyone has a copy of the MSAR.

I would highly recommend purchasing it personally. I think it gives some great perspective, particularly the 10th-90th percentile ranges. Those seem way more useful than the average to me.

 

[Psai]

I cringed myself when I read that. That being said, of all the most vocal people complaining about medicine(and I am not referring to the Dr. that posted here), how many of them have the experience of working 10 hour days in the hot sun or any type of intensive labor? I get that part of medicine will suck hard, but that is part of life if you have to work for living. I understand the temptation to compare yourself to those you think have it better than you(maybe high level computer programmers and bankers?) but its also probably good to compare yourself to those who are working long hard jobs without any payoff at all waiting for them other than the pleasure of being tossed aside once their bodies stop working.

Why would we do that? We should compare ourselves to our peers. Anyone can do menial work. Not everyone can do computer programming, banking or medicine.

 

[circulus vitios]

"I can't even fathom making money. I was raised on a minimum wage......we never broke 20k. I've never cared for or thought about money." cool story bro, I'm sure that your parents were sitting around not caring about money either. Just kidding, they were sheltering your dumb ass from the realities of life while they chose between fixing your 15 year old car and paying the bills on time.

 

[Lucca]

Why would we do that? We should compare ourselves to our peers. Anyone can do menial work. Not everyone can do computer programming, banking or medicine.

I don't think he was trying to argue about economics or fair levels of reimbursement. I think he just wanted to provide the perspective that people have ****tier lives, ****tier jobs with ****tier pay.

Ibanking deals with way more BS than medicine and anyone who says otherwise has spent 0 seconds around the field.

Programming is a pretty sweet deal really, especially if you work for a lifestyle company but it isn't heaven either. Your skills and knowledge base has to stay up to date or you can get laid off in a moments notice. You have to deal with corporate ladder crap, you - most of the time - solve first world problems unless you work at the tippity top companies that actually push the envelope. The value you add to the economy is determined by how much more you can sell than your competitors in increasingly homogenized software markets, etc.

In both fields, dont forget the mid life crisis that comes with the realization that you spent the "best years of your life" (trademark) sitting in front of a computer. Doctors feel that same sense of dissatisfaction. If you're going to enjoy any profession you have to enjoy the basic concept behind it in order to see past all the BS that is on top of it. There is no perfect super happy fun time money making field that is free from the rat race, delayed gratification, politicking, bureaucracy, or any other such annoying life constant.

That is, except for being a janitor.

 

[IMDoc607]

I cringed myself when I read that. That being said, of all the most vocal people complaining about medicine(and I am not referring to the Dr. that posted here), how many of them have the experience of working 10 hour days in the hot sun or any type of intensive labor? I get that part of medicine will suck hard, but that is part of life if you have to work for living. I understand the temptation to compare yourself to those you think have it better than you(maybe high level computer programmers and bankers?) but its also probably good to compare yourself to those who are working long hard jobs without any payoff at all waiting for them other than the pleasure of being tossed aside once their bodies stop working.

Very fair point....I actually did landscaping for 3 years but your point still holds true because I was young. This thread went way off topic because I said something and was then viciously attacked. Perhaps I came off greedy and I honestly did not mean to. However, you all need to realize that it's not all roses on the other side. Yes, right now all you want is that acceptance and I hope you all get what you want ( even the guy who told me to grow up...lol). But you need to understand what's waiting for you once you graduate. I'm not burned out.....hell I love my job. Who gets the privilege to save someone's life and get paid well to do it? It's exciting and rewarding. Even that 4am IABP and STEMI call is an honor to be a part of. But you guys need to think hard before you choose your specialties. I was fortunate to love a field that's lucrative. Honestly, don't listen to the cardiologists who bitch and moan. Despite cuts our current salaries are more than enough to make med school worth it.....current is key word here. I have friends in other fields being offered 150K and they flipping out because they can't afford to live with the burden of their student loans and life.....alittle exaggerated I agree.

Anyway best of luck to you all and in 7 years you'll all agree. I'm fairly confident of that.