2017 Still No Interview; Panic mode?!

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@Lawper Just wondering, would you really consider a DO school over a M.D. school simply so you can get in your first round of applications?

I'm wondering because I want to eventually go into private practice and while a doctor is a doctor, some people really don't know that D.O. means doctor. If I weren't going into private practice I would go DO and be happy.

I'm definitely no authority on this but I think this depends very much on where you live! On the west coast and in the midwest DOs and MDs are pretty much seen as equals in my opinion. In the northeast DOs historically haven't been recognized as much but I think that is definitely starting to change. With the increasingly competitiveness of medical school admissions and also the upcoming merger in the residency match system, I think allopathic and osteopathic worlds are converging more and more and it really won't matter which letters you have at the end of your name. At the end of the day you will be a doctor either way.
 
If you and I were creating a system that automatically selects applicants without human eyes, then we would need, at the very least and as a starting criteria, selection on the basis of stats. That's really the nature of the beast for medical school, right? If you can't "prove" yourself in undergrad and obtain at least a certain GPA and certain MCAT, due to risk, we wouldn't be able to admit said applicant. (Though, ideally, we'd be able to account for difficulty of the degree obtained—I'll accept an engineer with a 3.5 over an underwater basket-weaving major with a 4.0; though, of course, we'd have to account for the BW major who obtained a 510+ on their MCAT as well, because, of course, it's the great equalizer.) After that, we'd need to select for EC's. We'd need a program which analyzes hours and type of activity, and match that to our medical school's mission. We'd need to select for writing proficiency as well, and this might need human eyes—but I'm pretty sure a program could do this as well. Then, we fire up the program, it analyzes applicants according to our pre-set criteria—of which are clearly delineated on our website—and the II roll out.

I agree that you're definitely doing something wrong if you've got the achievements outlined above and not many interviews! Though I think it's fair to say that such applicants with those achievements which do not obtain many interviews are few and far in between, though I could be wrong.

Yeah, without putting too much thought into it, I think I'd extend the logic to virtually all careers. With the congressman example: so—correct me if I'm wrong—you're saying that this elected official is not entitled to (i.e., does not contain the privilege for) said office in virtue of their merits? Hmm...then how else would we deem them fit to serve? Lol, god knows what happens when we elect random individuals of which exhibit no merit whatsoever that would entitle them to hold office. What do you mean when you say that a congress(wo)man is privileged to hold office?

(Warning, opinion follows) I think we ought to seriously consider someone's merit in the case of holding governmental offices. I believe that when we allow anyone with any set of perspectives and merits to hold office, society goes astray. Such a political opinion is hard to stomach, because it does run against a widely held western paradigm of "anyone can hold office" and "we have the right to vote for anyone"—but, IMO, in an ideal world, our government would be run efficiently and for the betterment of the society that it serves. In such a nation, we couldn't allow just anyone to hold office.

Have you read the book 'Excellent Sheep'? It's a book abut how overachieving students optimize their lives and activities around gaining admission to prestigious colleges. I've included some quotes from the author below, but I believe that an automated admissions process would bring out the worst in everyone. Admission to a school would become a game; true passions would wither away.

Much of the same problems that plague college admissions also affects medical school admissions. There are so many hoops we have to jump through, and clearly we have no choice but to do so if we wish to become doctors. Instead of an automated system, I personally think the approach to admissions itself (and the metrics we use) need to change.

William Deresiewicz said:
The compulsive overachievement of today's elite college students-- the sense that they need to keep running as fast as they can-- is not the only thing that keeps them from forming the deeper relationships that might relieve their anguish.

Isolated from their peers, these kids are also cut off from themselves. The endless hoop-jumping... that got them into an elite college in the first place--the clubs, bands, projects, teams, APs, SATs, evenings, weekends, summers, coaches , tutors, leadership, service -- left them no time to figure out what they want out of life.

Too many students, perhaps after a year or two spent using college as a treadmill to nowhere, wake up in crisis, not knowing why they have worked so hard.

"I hate all my activities, I hate all my classes, I hated everything I did in high school, expect to hate my job, and this is just how it's going to be for the rest of my life."

The result is what we might refer to as credentialism. The purpose of life becomes the accumulation of gold stars. Hence the relentless extracurricular busyness, the neglect of learning as an end in itself, the inability to imagine doing something that you can't put on your resume...the constant sense of competition....to be played out within the same narrow conception of what constitutes a valid life: affluence, credentials, and prestige.

If those of us who went to college in the 1970s and '80s no longer recognize the admissions process, if today's elite students appear to be an alien species --Super People, perhaps, or a race of bionic hamsters
 
Have you read the book 'Excellent Sheep'? It's a book abut how overachieving students optimize their lives and activities around gaining admission to prestigious colleges. I've included some quotes from the author below, but I believe that an automated admissions process would bring out the worst in everyone. Admission to a school would become a game; true passions would wither away.

Much of the same problems that plague college admissions also affects medical school admissions. There are so many hoops we have to jump through, and clearly we have no choice but to do so if we wish to become doctors. Instead of an automated system, I personally think the approach to admissions itself (and the metrics we use) need to change.

The compulsive overachievement of today's elite college students-- the sense that they need to keep running as fast as they can-- is not the only thing that keeps them from forming the deeper relationships that might relieve their anguish.

Isolated from their peers, these kids are also cut off from themselves. The endless hoop-jumping... that got them into an elite college in the first place--the clubs, bands, projects, teams, APs, SATs, evenings, weekends, summers, coaches , tutors, leadership, service -- left them no time to figure out what they want out of life.

Too many students, perhaps after a year or two spent using college as a treadmill to nowhere, wake up in crisis, not knowing why they have worked so hard.

"I hate all my activities, I hate all my classes, I hated everything I did in high school, expect to hate my job, and this is just how it's going to be for the rest of my life."

The result is what we might refer to as credentialism. The purpose of life becomes the accumulation of gold stars. Hence the relentless extracurricular busyness, the neglect of learning as an end in itself, the inability to imagine doing something that you can't put on your resume...the constant sense of competition....to be played out within the same narrow conception of what constitutes a valid life: affluence, credentials, and prestige.

If those of us who went to college in the 1970s and '80s no longer recognize the admissions process, if today's elite students appear to be an alien species --Super People, perhaps, or a race of bionic hamsters

i felt like I went through this myself in college, and the hoop jumping has been the biggest barrier in me enjoying my path to medicine. I'm really just so tired of trying to appear like someone who 'deserves' to be in med school, because compared to the overly competitive average applicant, just being a person isn't enough.
 
If you are a ~3.8/515 with a Rhodes/Gates type award and a long balanced list of schools, and you are 2 for 35 in IIs in mid November, you are doing something wrong somewhere
Maybe, maybe not. There's a lot of luck and randomness involved in this process. A former adcom told me they used to joke about throwing darts...

It's tempting to think that getting in means you did all the right things and that not getting in means you did something wrong, but sometimes the dice just didn't roll your way, so you come to a thread like this and vent, and then buck up and try again.
 
Maybe, maybe not. There's a lot of luck and randomness involved in this process. A former adcom told me they used to joke about throwing darts...

It's tempting to think that getting in means you did all the right things and that not getting in means you did something wrong, but sometimes the dice just didn't roll your way, so you come to a thread like this and vent, and then buck up and try again.
I actually think it's tempting to try and blame bad luck, instead of some critical reflection on the app. Whether you get attention from a particular med school can be unpredictable, but across a few dozen places? If your app is objectively fantastic on paper there is something wrong in the hidden components.
 
I do not think we yet have the ability to automate the assessment of LoRs, secondary responses, personal statements or that special magic of having an "application narrative". (1) If we could score all that with some kind of objective robot, then sure I'm a fan of your system, so long as someone with solid grades, scores, and accomplishments can still be ruled out for weakness in these kinds of areas.


When I say having a certain career is a privilege, I mean there are many that would like to have that job, and only a subset are granted access to it after they're judged on important, subjective criteria by others. No matter how impressive someone's resume is at whatever they did beforehand, nobody should be (2) guaranteed a congress seat, or even a spot on the ballot, without first having the public hear their answers to important questions and so on. And I suppose I'd say it's a privilege to be chosen to fill a role in an administration too, e.g. it is a privilege to serve in a presidential cabinet, not something they are due or entitled to. In the same way, I don't care how great you did in college, or on the MCAT, or what scholarships you've won, it is not an injustice to you for a medical school to skip over you if they find your overall app too flawed in other ways.
(1) I agree.

(2) Ah, I see, and agree. I don't think that these types of careers ought to be guaranteed, though—and especially in the case of MS admissions—I do think people who have met this certain set of "objective" (not really, because we still choose said criteria) metrics ought to be granted a chance to further themselves along the path to acceptance, i.e., gain an interview.
 
I actually think it's tempting to try and blame bad luck, instead of some critical reflection on the app. Whether you get attention from a particular med school can be unpredictable, but across a few dozen places? If your app is objectively fantastic on paper there is something wrong in the hidden components.
Of course neither of us knows or will ever know. I didn't get the sense that the poster was trying to avoid critically reflecting on his or her app. Most of us can both walk and chew gum. I'm just saying - we'd all like to think that admissions is a perfect meritocracy, especially people who get into great schools - but it's just not. Life isn't always fair, admissions isn't always fair, good things often come to people who don't deserve it, and this thread is for people who are bummed about having a bad cycle. If you're not in that boat, then posting here about why those people deserve their bad outcomes is simply poor form.
 
Of course neither of us knows or will ever know. I didn't get the sense that the poster was trying to avoid critically reflecting on his or her app. Most of us can both walk and chew gum. I'm just saying - we'd all like to think that admissions is a perfect meritocracy, especially people who get into great schools - but it's just not. Life isn't always fair, admissions isn't always fair, good things often come to people who don't deserve it, and this thread is for people who are bummed about having a bad cycle. If you're not in that boat, then posting here about why those people deserve their bad outcomes is simply poor form.
Poor form would be saying "I have great stats and a prestigious scholarship, yet 95% of schools are so far uninterested, this is so frustrating I'm totally getting shafted." Unless your situation is similar and you feel the same, I've said nothing about your attitude or outcomes. Big difference between being bummed and being indignant.
 
Poor form would be saying "I have great stats and a prestigious scholarship, yet 95% of schools are so far uninterested, this is so frustrating I'm totally getting shafted." Unless your situation is similar and you feel the same, I've said nothing about your attitude or outcomes. Big difference between being bummed and being indignant.
I don't want to get into an argument about this and wasn't inferring that you were criticizing me personally.
Best wishes to you - you applied last year and had a rockstar cycle, right?
 
Poor form would be saying "I have great stats and a prestigious scholarship, yet 95% of schools are so far uninterested, this is so frustrating I'm totally getting shafted." Unless your situation is similar and you feel the same, I've said nothing about your attitude or outcomes. Big difference between being bummed and being indignant.
I'm just annoyed that many years of hard work to put together what I believe to objectively be a very solid application is being ignored by almost everyone. Frustration =/= bitterness.

I'm not indignant, because I am completely aware and accepting of the unequal nature of higher education applications. I understand that say, URM communities need a proportion of URM physicians which necessitates lower admissions standards for some groups. I went to a top tier UG where I appreciated the variation in communities that results from the same practice in college applications. Conclusion: I'm not looking for anyone to blame here, I'm just expressing my darn frustration in an anonymous internet forum.

Would you mind sharing your complete date?
Mid-late August, a few schools that asked me to resubmit the previously mentioned LOR, mid-September I guess (though marked complete earlier).
 
I don't want to get into an argument about this and wasn't inferring that you were criticizing me personally.
Best wishes to you - you applied last year and had a rockstar cycle, right?
I am at a wonderful school, but it's a humbling process no matter what. I'd give a lot to be at similar places on the other side of the country right now and they didn't even give me an interview

I'm just annoyed that many years of hard work to put together what I believe to objectively be a very solid application is being ignored by almost everyone. Frustration =/= bitterness.

I'm not indignant, because I am completely aware and accepting of the unequal nature of higher education applications. I understand that say, URM communities need a proportion of URM physicians which necessitates lower admissions standards for some groups. I went to a top tier UG where I appreciated the variation in communities that results from the same practice in college applications. Conclusion: I'm not looking for anyone to blame here, I'm just expressing my darn frustration in an anonymous internet forum.
Maybe I'm misreading this, but it looks even worse now tbh. "My app is objectively great, but I'm aware admissions treats ORM unequally and I've made peace with that" ???
 
Maybe I'm misreading this, but it looks even worse now tbh. "My app is objectively great, but I'm aware admissions treats ORM unequally and I've made peace with that" ???
Yeah, I'd say you're misreading it. What's going on in my head is more like "It's november and I submitted what I believe to be a solid application and the lack of interviews (beyond one Top-10) especially from my state university that accepts ~20% of IS applicants and interviews probably 33%+ is very frustrating and I need to vent."

The part about ORM/URM is me indicating that I'm not indignant about perceived injustices specific to my app. Have I made peace with the multifaceted nature of admissions that considers things like diversity? Sure. Nothing wrong with that that I can see.

In the least insulting manner possible, I honestly don't think that someone who didn't go through an unsuccessful cycle/very few II's can truly appreciate the emotional aspect of many posters (myself included) in this thread. I'm not deflecting attention away from potential issues with my application, which if everything turns out poorly I will certainly post on here about. It's just that from an applicant perspective, some responses to these worried/concerned type of threads (not your post really) from normally helpful posters are completely misguided.
 
Yeah, I'd say you're misreading it. What's going on in my head is more like "It's november and I submitted what I believe to be a solid application and the lack of interviews (beyond one Top-10) especially from my state university that accepts ~20% of IS applicants and interviews probably 33%+ is very frustrating and I need to vent."

The part about ORM/URM is me indicating that I'm not indignant about perceived injustices specific to my app. Have I made peace with the multifaceted nature of admissions that considers things like diversity? Sure. Nothing wrong with that that I can see.

In the least insulting manner possible, I honestly don't think that someone who didn't go through an unsuccessful cycle/very few II's can truly appreciate the emotional aspect of many posters (myself included) in this thread. I'm not deflecting attention away from potential issues with my application, which if everything turns out poorly I will certainly post on here about. It's just that from an applicant perspective, some responses to these worried/concerned type of threads (not your post really) from normally helpful posters are completely misguided.
I actually had I think only 2 interviews and no admits in early Nov last year myself. I'm also not URM. But my internal monologue at that time was more "Oh man what did I **** up." I suppose you just have more confidence in your self-assessment.
 
I actually had I think only 2 interviews and no admits in early Nov last year myself. I'm also not URM. But my internal monologue at that time was more "Oh man what did I **** up." I suppose you just have more confidence in your self-assessment.
I've read SDN long enough to know a bit about your app lol. I don't think it's that I have more self-confidence (read: arrogance) but rather that I expected more out of a VERY conservative 35-school list.
 
I'm not indignant, because I am completely aware and accepting of the unequal nature of higher education applications. I understand that say, URM communities need a proportion of URM physicians which necessitates lower admissions standards for some groups. I went to a top tier UG where I appreciated the variation in communities that results from the same practice in college applications. Conclusion: I'm not looking for anyone to blame here, I'm just expressing my darn frustration in an anonymous internet forum.

Look there's no reason to bring up URM status with you not getting in. Unless you're a minority in the United States, you will never understand the implications of living every single day with your minority status being the crux of you.

And cut it out with that "URM get in with low stats". Very few URM get in with low stats. They're more likely to get in with higher stats. Those exceptions are made for extreme circumstances- something you'll never experience with your privilege.

I wish the best for you but I'm really sickened with your post. Please be mindful in the future with what you say.
 
Look there's no reason to bring up URM status with you not getting in. Unless you're a minority in the United States, you will never understand the implications of living every single day with your minority status being the crux of you.

And cut it out with that "URM get in with low stats". Very few URM get in with low stats. They're more likely to get in with higher stats. Those exceptions are made for extreme circumstances- something you'll never experience with your privilege.

I wish the best for you but I'm really sickened with your post. Please be mindful in the future with what you say.
He was pointing out that he recognizes why URM in general receive acceptances with lower stats. He was not blaming URM for not having interviews or making a value statement on whether it is right or wrong.
 
Suppose your marriage were ending. Would it help you to get scolded on how 50% of marriages end in divorce?
If you were losing a parent, would you want to hear from someone who lost a pet? The conversation that helped me the most when my dad died was with a friend who had also lost a parent. It didn't make me delusional.
The people with multiple interviews or no skin in the game who keep crashing the no-interview threads - just let us have our minute. Empathy and sensitivity toward others are important skills for physicians (and their advisors) too. Recognize that no one here is actually panicking. We're processing some disappointment. Nothing wrong with that. Emotions and rationality aren't mutually exclusive.

Poor analogies. The success of your marriage is not contingent on how other marriages are going. Additionally, med schools can only accept a limited number of students (even if it is somewhat flexible)--the number of marriages is not fixed (other than by the population of marriageable humans). The death of a parent isn't something you can prepare for to have a better second "cycle" with them.

There's a difference between saying you can't have empathy and saying you shouldn't panic. Gonnif said there is no reason to panic, because you should know the odds at the outset. And that rather than commiserate, you should focus on your next steps. Those are reasonable statement.

I seriously doubt gonnif would say that you shouldn't commiserate or be sad about the loss of a parent "because you should have known there is a p=1 chance that they will die at some point." That would be absurd, because it's not even close to the same thing.
 
Poor analogies. The success of your marriage is not contingent on how other marriages are going. Additionally, med schools can only accept a limited number of students (even if it is somewhat flexible)--the number of marriages is not fixed (other than by the population of marriageable humans). The death of a parent isn't something you can prepare for to have a better second "cycle" with them.

There's a difference between saying you can't have empathy and saying you shouldn't panic. Gonnif said there is no reason to panic, because you should know the odds at the outset. And that rather than commiserate, you should focus on your next steps. Those are reasonable statement.

I seriously doubt gonnif would say that you shouldn't commiserate or be sad about the loss of a parent "because you should have known there is a p=1 chance that they will die at some point." That would be absurd, because it's not even close to the same thing.
Ok, look - if you can't read the room here then there's not much I can say that's going to help explain it to you. This is not a courtroom. It's a social media thread for people who poured heart and soul into our applications this cycle and are so far coming up short. Obviously you don't identify - more power to you. Most of us would love to be where you are, and aren't quite understanding why you feel the need to come here to rub salt in the wound, especially considering your chosen profession. You're going to have patients who will get bad news and be upset, and say things that may or may not be justified. They may or may not be at fault for the position they find themselves in. I would submit that the best doctors in this situation will lead with their hearts, not their head. Learn to give people some space. It's really not that hard.
 
Completely untrue.........and there is no "crux" to being a minority in this country either. That is all propaganda and blame-shifting. The only reason blacks and hispanics get into medical school at all is because of affirmative action. Any when they do get in they almost always make crummy doctors. I would never go to see a "URM" physician. It is shame that diversity initiatives have invaded this country. All because people cannot accept that "URMs" are inferior to whites and asians.

If this individual isn't banned yet I'd like to mention that this is the same individual who was convicted of rape charges in his home country of Norway and is attempting to deceive adcoms so they don't learn of this charge.

Take his racist and disgusting posts with a grain of salt. I truly hope this is a troll because I'd be disgusted if individuals like this actually wanted to become physicians.
 
But my internal monologue at that time was more "Oh man what did I **** up."
Yeah, all of us are thinking that ALSO.
Good to know that you were in the same boat last cycle and ended up someplace great. That is super nice to hear, a great thing to post on this thread.
 
Jumping into this thread as well 😉

3.7-3.9 c/s GPAs, 513-518 MCAT with a major British scholarship and my other ECs being the stronger part of my app. Applied to 35 schools of pretty conservative caliber.

1 II at a Top 20 (25-33% post-II acceptance rate) received only less than a week ago and a pre-II hold (that few get off of) at my 1 and only IS campus. 4 R's, 3 holds.

I'm frustrated and I think that's pretty justified for all my fellow SDN people who have done "everything right" and are basically just getting shafted.

I knew I had an applicant doppelganger. I FEEL YOU.
 
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