*** 2018-2019 MD/PhD cycle - Questions, Comments, and other things ***

[Fencer]

FYI... it used to be that May 1 was the time when if you had 2 or more AC's, you were forced to choose or risk a rescinded acceptance. Every year, there were one or two applicants in this category. You were still able to get out of a waitlist until May 14, then if you were offered an acceptance out of waitlist on or after May 15, there was the need of a conversation between one program and another program (at admission dean level). I did that once on May 17, and had that done on me three times. Once matriculated, perhaps on June 1st for early lab rotations, no program was able to offer you an acceptance. This older system was challenged because it could be viewed under some circumstances as "collusion" between schools. The newer program was created with best intentions but we are all guinea pigs. We are learning what works and what doesn't. If there is personal responsibility on both sides, it might be a better system, but if people begin gaming the new system, we might end up with more rules, deadlines, etc... Professionalism is important for peer-review of manuscripts and grants, for patient-physician interactions, and many other things such as admissions. I didn't want to offend you either... Best wishes to all.

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[Lucca]

FYI... it used to be that May 1 was the time when if you had 2 or more AC's, you were forced to choose or risk a rescinded acceptance. Every year, there were one or two applicants in this category. You were still able to get out of a waitlist until May 14, then if you were offered an acceptance out of waitlist on or after May 15, there was the need of a conversation between one program and another program (at admission dean level). I did that once on May 17, and had that done on me three times. Once matriculated, perhaps on June 1st for early lab rotations, no program was able to offer you an acceptance. This older system was challenged because it could be viewed under some circumstances as "collusion" between schools. The newer program was created with best intentions but we are all guinea pigs. We are learning what works and what doesn't. If there is personal responsibility on both sides, it might be a better system, but if people begin gaming the new system, we might end up with more rules, deadlines, etc... Professionalism is important for peer-review of manuscripts and grants, for patient-physician interactions, and many other things such as admissions. I didn't want to offend you either... Best wishes to all.

It is possible that the new rule traffic rule changes may necessitate greater flexibility on when students can matriculate, and for those programs with June rotations especially. From the applicant’s perspective, we want to believe that program’s will continue to have our best interest in mind as we navigate this extremely protracted process from our end and it could be that what has been the case in the past will no longer work with respect to timeline. I’d like to believe our community is small enough that we can still organize ourselves around mutual trust and cooperation and not have to rely on draconian rules from on high to make ultimate, potentially terminal decisions about ones career. You have far more experience with this process obviously and clear rules are always necessary these rules just happen to be new and we’re all trying to see how they play out

 

[Lucca]

Big fan of match system and cap on app number, 10/10 would post about it again. Would solve most of these problems, especially the ambiguous silence which is the majority of this process

 

[Fencer]

A group of us will be presenting that system on our July directors' meeting. It is not perfect for applicants or students. While it provides an exact idea of the number of slots, it probably would not be able to allow you making up a class. What I mean for that is the following, assume that you have 10 slots, you don't want to have all 10 matriculating students to be all cancer biologists, or all neuroscientists, or all of one gender, or ethnic/race group. A benefit of admitting a class is the ability to create a community in your class... now, it has worked out well for residencies/fellowships. It would still require professionalism and rules on both sides. As you might know, there are sanctions for match violations, etc. It would allow to opt out to just pursue MD, and have an earlier decision deadline by 3-4 weeks, which will push 2nd visits sooner. Applicants will have 2-3 weeks after the initial match for the system to work and claim slots upward on their lists, while programs will secure the next available applicant on their list. The proposed match will need an exception from Congress, which is doable given that NIH (government) provides a substantial amount of funding and having a pipeline is critical for the biomedical research enterprise of the country.

 

[Fencer]

One more week in the process.... Brief update as of admission actions by Friday 03/01/19 (overnight sync to today) for the 2019 AMCAS MD/PhD cycle (Changes since 02/22 actions).

This is the BEST result for each individual applicant (WA or AC is better than Active/Looking, which is better than Rejected - PW, PR, RJ).

Total MD/PhD Applicants ----------- 1766 (+ 1)
Withdrawn BEFORE AC ---------------------- 7 (- 1 ?)
Rejected --------------------------------- 1081 (+7)
Actively seeking (not RJ) ----------------- 678 (-5)
At least 1 MD/PhD AC ---------------- 594 (+24) PAST 6-year average 774
Withdrawn AFTER AC ------------------------ 5 (-1 ?)
Defer to a future class ----------------------- 1 (0)
Currently MD/PhD Accepted -------------- 588 (+25)
Still looking for a MD/PhD position - 84 (-29)

This past week was very active for highly ranked programs. Thank you, God! We are 2 weeks away from the deadline to offer as many acceptances as programs intend to enroll. If you interviewed with several MD/PhD programs and you are waitlisted, your chances remain very good. I am thinking on several of you who I have personally talked to you. My concern remains that considerably more of these late decisions will be pushed further into early and mid-May or even later.

Despite my initial impression, it appears that the community is getting the message and are beginning to talk to programs.

Please note that I added an EDIT to clarify at the end of my prior post #405.
*** 2018-2019 MD/PhD cycle - Questions, Comments, and other things ***

 

[daisymae4]

This is not a hypothetical question. It will happen later in this cycle because these are the new rules. They provide more choice to applicants earlier, but they come with more teeth for programs (responsibility for applicants) later on. You are embarking into a profession that truly requires professionalism... (not like the fixers testifying in c-span because they got caught).

"Commit to Enroll" means that you closed your recruitment. You are supposed to inform other programs that you are no longer in their waitlist. If you withdraw because someone invites you to another school, believe me, you will be marked by taking two slots away. A program that begins on June 1 can't just reopen their enrollment in mid or late June because "an applicant" decides to go and train elsewhere. [EDIT: The program that loses that applicant, loses that slot for that class. MSTP grants will need to consider that "attrition" for that program because a matriculated applicant leaves.] Even MSTP programs from SOMs ranked in the 50-100 USNW&R consistently place graduates in top 10 schools (of same ranking) for residency/fellowship. If you are not prepared to "Commit to Enroll", place the "Plan to Enroll" in your decision, but be prepared to own the consequence, which might a though conversation and/or as it will likely be in my personal case, a rescinded acceptance at 21 days from orientation. That would open the position to another person who wants to train at my institution within the time-frame that allows other programs to recover. The following cycle, you will need to explain to your perceived top Ten (or perceived better) programs why you did that in the first place, if they ever would give you that opportunity... This is not a game, but a community training the physician-scientists for the future of biomedical research. As the Ivy programs released acceptances, I was ecstatic that some of my accepted or waitlisted applicants made decisions, and contacted me. I am truly happy for them...

Edit (for clarification):
On April 30, you need to choose a single program AND then choose Plan to Enroll or Commit to Enroll. This is without penalty. Every program would have slightly different policy, but the system encourages programs to make a policy that at a time no more than 21 days from orientation (first official MD/PhD activity) to require every applicant to Commit to Enroll or risk rescindance of the acceptance.

Just hoping for some clarification as this is the first I have heard of the possibility of a rescinded acceptance after the April 30th deadline. I am currently waitlisted at my top choice and thinking about the possibility of an acceptance sometime in May. If I understand you correctly, if I don't withdraw from my top choice's waitlist by April 30th, my current acceptance could be rescinded? I was under the impression that there was going to be so much waitlist movement in May then it was acceptable to remain on waitlists? Or is it acceptable to remain on the waitlist until 21 days out from the start of the program? Thank you for clarifying - I just don't know what one should be doing in the event that this happens in a few months.

 

[Fencer]

I edited my prior post to clarify several issues.

• By April 30, select only one program and withdraw from other acceptances.
• It is acceptable to remain on several waitlists AFTER April 30.
• If you get another acceptance AFTER April 30, you have up to 2 days (or sooner) to make up your mind.
• 21 days prior to orientation, you will need to close your recruitment and pull out from other waitlists.

 

[WhiteblossoM]

I am curious to know more about how the waitlist system works. Is it different for each school? Is it like a ranking and they just go down the list or meet weekly to select new candidates? Also, is there a number of waitlist candidates schools typically keep?

 

[WhiteblossoM]

Also is there anything to do to increase chances of being selected off the waitlist?

Still wondering about this as well. Will a letter of continued interest help? A phone call? Is it bad to ask the director for chances of admissions?

 

[Lucca]

Still wondering about this as well. Will a letter of continued interest help? A phone call? Is it bad to ask the director for chances of admissions?

I probably wouldn’t explicitly ask the director for chance of admissions as even they probably can’t answer that. I would definitely reach out and express your intent / interest in the program after March 15th when all initial acceptances will have gone out and everyone starts making final decisions. Or send it now if you’ve already made up your mind!

 

[swiftimpetuous]

I edited my prior post to clarify several issues.

• By April 30, select only one program and withdraw from other acceptances.
• It is acceptable to remain on several waitlists AFTER April 30.
• If you get another acceptance AFTER April 30, you have up to 2 days (or sooner) to make up your mind.
• 21 days prior to orientation, you will need to close your recruitment and pull out from other waitlists.

@Fencer , about your last point. For MD/PhD programs with summer rotations does "orientation" count as the day you begin your summer rotation or the day the med school orientation begins? And how does this work if you're on waitlists for MD programs where you could hear from a waitlist anytime until August?

 

[Fencer]

You are accepted into the MD/PhD program. The day for orientation of that program is the date of matriculation to that program. If you are only accepted into a MD program (typically late July or August start up), you can withdraw (into a MD/PhD program) until 21 days prior to that matriculation date. Waitlists for MD programs, fortunately, are much larger than for MD/PhD programs.

 

[tilapiaexpress]

@Fencer , about your last point. For MD/PhD programs with summer rotations does "orientation" count as the day you begin your summer rotation or the day the med school orientation begins? And how does this work if you're on waitlists for MD programs where you could hear from a waitlist anytime until August?

Every institution that I was accepted to said that in order to do a summer rotation you must "commit to enroll". I would imagine that holds pretty true at every school. Thus, if you are on a wait list that you are giving strong consideration and the summer rotation is optional I would stay in your current job/find something temporary to hold you over. If it isn't clear, I would contact the programs to figure it out.

 

[Fencer]

The rationale for an early rotation is that it gives you a head start potentially in the lab of your eventual mentor. About 20% of my students do something during those 3 months that leads to a manuscript, and almost 100% of them graduate in 3-4 years (7-8 total years).

 

[WhiteblossoM]

I am curious to know more about how the waitlist system works. Is it different for each school? Is it like a ranking and they just go down the list or meet weekly to select new candidates? Also, is there a number of waitlist candidates schools typically keep?

Also can any school tell a candidate where they are on the waitlist or only that they are on the waitlist?

 

[LateApplicant2018]

Also can any school tell a candidate where they are on the waitlist or only that they are on the waitlist?

Curious about this and whether it's appropriate to send a letter of intent to another school after a rejection was received from one's top choice.

 

[looptheloop]

Curious about this and whether it's appropriate to send a letter of intent to another school after a rejection was received from one's top choice.

I think it must be okay to send a LOI to another school if you've been rejected from the school you sent one to earlier. Since your original top choice is off the table, it's perfectly reasonable that you'd have a new top choice.

 

[looptheloop]

Also can any school tell a candidate where they are on the waitlist or only that they are on the waitlist?

I'm not sure what the answer is, but I would bet that it is entirely school-dependent. Some schools don't have ranked WLs, some do, and I imagine that a fraction of those that do would gladly tell you your ranking while others (for whatever reason) would not.

 

[peanutbuttercup24]

Thoughts on reaching out to a school for a status update post-interview? I'm going on 3 months of waiting for an initial decision so I'm assuming it's a WL or R, but would like some confirmation so I can stop going crazy....

 

[looptheloop]

Thoughts on reaching out to a school for a status update post-interview? I'm going on 3 months of waiting for an initial decision so I'm assuming it's a WL or R, but would like some confirmation so I can stop going crazy....

Is it a non-rolling school? It's so close to when all schools will send final decisions that I would probably just wait. OTOH, I don't see how it could hurt.

 

[peanutbuttercup24]

Is it a non-rolling school? It's so close to when all schools will send final decisions that I would probably just wait. OTOH, I don't see how it could hurt.

It's semi non-rolling (they say non-rolling, but then also say they might accept a few earlier). I have confirmation that another applicant heard back which is why I'm guessing WL or R. Based on past years though, it looks like they might silent WL/R, but I guess after months of waiting what's another few months. This is just brutal.

 

[Fencer]

@peanutbuttercup24 I hear your pain... I am sorry about the current system. I also don't like it. I suggest to send an update/LOI to the top 3 programs that haven't rejected you as of yet. Make sure that you include names of 3-5 potential PIs in the institution and the PhD discipline that you are intending to pursue. It would be good if these 3-5 PIs are all NIH R01 funded (see: NIH Reporter), and even better, if they have current or recent MD/PhD students.

 

[Envro55]

Anyone heard anything from UCLA today or yesterday?

 

[nakamarra]

Anyone heard anything from UCLA today or yesterday?

nope

 

[raysearch]

nope

I think they should let us know this week because second look is about a month away.....

 

[klucket2]

@peanutbuttercup24 I hear your pain... I am sorry about the current system. I also don't like it. I suggest to send an update/LOI to the top 3 programs that haven't rejected you as of yet. Make sure that you include names of 3-5 potential PIs in the institution and the PhD discipline that you are intending to pursue. It would be good if these 3-5 PIs are all NIH R01 funded (see: NIH Reporter), and even better, if they have current or recent MD/PhD students.

I sent a LOI to my top choice program that I am waitlisted at a few weeks ago. I included some updates about a future publication and a conference I presented research at, as well my specific research interests and the department at the institution I would be most interested in doing my thesis work in. Do you think it would be worth writing a second letter at some point naming specific PIs I would like to work with? I can't think of any other updates that I would be able to talk about, so I'm not sure what the rest of the substance of that letter would be.

 

[vaticrunner]

I sent a LOI to my top choice program that I am waitlisted at a few weeks ago. I included some updates about a future publication and a conference I presented research at, as well my specific research interests and the department at the institution I would be most interested in doing my thesis work in. Do you think it would be worth writing a second letter at some point naming specific PIs I would like to work with? I can't think of any other updates that I would be able to talk about, so I'm not sure what the rest of the substance of that letter would be.

I don’t know if PD’s care, but I also included a why this program section in one letter of interest that I sent awhile ago. It was in my hometown, and I mentioned that I have a great support network, which was important to me. I don’t know if that pertains to your situation, but it might be worth a shot.

 

[peanutbuttercup24]

Is it ok to send a LOI before being waitlisted?

 

[Fencer]

Is it ok to send a LOI before being waitlisted?

yes

 

[Typatt50]

@Fencer is it appropriate to ask a program around where you rank on a waitlist and how active historically the waitlist is?

 

[brownPiano]

@Fencer is it appropriate to ask a program around where you rank on a waitlist and how active historically the waitlist is?

One school I asked said they can't share my waitlist position with me. What was odd about the program is that they said last year they went through 30+ spots on their waitlist, but that they were confident with most of this years accepted students in choosing the school. Then they went on to say I still have a really good chance...didn't know how to interpret this.

 

[MSTPadvocate]

One school I asked said they can't share my waitlist position with me. What was odd about the program is that they said last year they went through 30+ spots on their waitlist, but that they were confident with most of this years accepted students in choosing the school. Then they went on to say I still have a really good chance...didn't know how to interpret this.

Each school is different. At our relatively large program, we don't specifically rank wait list applicants. Often most are equally qualified and we make decisions largely on demographics. For instance, if we have a number of matriculants interested in neuroscience but not many in immunology, we might pick someone interested in immunology. Most years , we will offer between 2 and 5 spots on our wait list to fill 2 positions with the understanding that as it gets into May, some won't want to come as they've signed leases, etc.

I will say this about letters of intent - we've been burned on this. People on the wait list who swore we were their top choice and they would definitively come if admitted, backed out. In fact, one held a spot with us while continually holding one at their "second" choice until almost June. Needless to say, when they dropped us, we couldn't fill the slot. It was very unprofessional and we now look with skepticism at those letters of intent. One bad apple...

 

[Fencer]

This year the waitlists are likely not behave as historical waitlist. While I am encouraged by the behavior of accomplished applicants withdrawing from programs and keeping their 2nd visits to no more than 3 schools, I still believe that things are going to develop slower than in prior years. The CYMS tool for Schools is not very helpful. The threshold for information is 10 currently accepted students, well... my program takes 7 students per year and I can't over enroll, thus we are quite conservative and have very little information. I heard similar reactions from other PDs. California state schools also can't over enroll...

 

[Lucca]

Each school is different. At our relatively large program, we don't specifically rank wait list applicants. Often most are equally qualified and we make decisions largely on demographics. For instance, if we have a number of matriculants interested in neuroscience but not many in immunology, we might pick someone interested in immunology. Most years , we will offer between 2 and 5 spots on our wait list to fill 2 positions with the understanding that as it gets into May, some won't want to come as they've signed leases, etc.

I will say this about letters of intent - we've been burned on this. People on the wait list who swore we were their top choice and they would definitively come if admitted, backed out. In fact, one held a spot with us while continually holding one at their "second" choice until almost June. Needless to say, when they dropped us, we couldn't fill the slot. It was very unprofessional and we now look with skepticism at those letters of intent. One bad apple...

Yah, I can imagine its a very stressful position for PDs to be in as well and it's a shame LOIs can't carry more weight. That said, sudden changes of heart do happen. Just as getting that Acceptance instead of a WL is a game of inches at these small, competitive programs making decisions between them is likewise a game of inches in most cases; at least this has been my experience.

 

[klucket2]

I will say this about letters of intent - we've been burned on this. People on the wait list who swore we were their top choice and they would definitively come if admitted, backed out. In fact, one held a spot with us while continually holding one at their "second" choice until almost June. Needless to say, when they dropped us, we couldn't fill the slot. It was very unprofessional and we now look with skepticism at those letters of intent. One bad apple...

Ugh this is so upsetting to hear. My top choice program is my top choice, no questions asks I would attend, I've been dreaming about going there since like 2014. I want to know that the LOI I wrote means something. I wish LOI had some sort of truly binding agreement like colleges that have early action/decision programs for high schoolers. Not that those haven't been broken and wiggled out of before by fickle 17-18 year olds, but there's definitely more consequences in terms of other schools hearing about it and taking action, possibly rescinding acceptances, etc.

 

[Fencer]

From the point of view of the applicants, this is what I think is the best to do:
a) If you have NO acceptances - then, every program that has not rejected you is your top program (unfortunately, for us).
b) If you have at least 1 acceptance - then, clearly indicate in your LOI that while you have a MD/PhD (MSTP) acceptance(s), however, program X remains your top dream program because ...

As indicated above, the LOI should be truthful, and if you already have an acceptance, you shouldn't be writing to everybody but only to your top dream destination. Now, the real issue is if you are split between 2 or 3 programs, and you are waitlisted in both. I don't have a good answer for that...

I personally don't believe that you can't exclude one program out of 4 or more acceptances... that, in my view, is immaturity (keep in mind, that we all were immature at one point, and sporadically this trait is on, at times, when someone push our buttons). Serious reflection should be able to narrow the field to 2-3 programs at most.

Good luck to everyone...

 

[Wardo]

I have multiple schools telling me to fill out a FAFSA, but it wants me to enter a school code. If I am still unsure which I will be attending, do I need to wait to fill out FAFSA? Or do I put it multiple school codes somehow? Or something else?

Thanks!

 

[klucket2]

I have multiple schools telling me to fill out a FAFSA, but it wants me to enter a school code. If I am still unsure which I will be attending, do I need to wait to fill out FAFSA? Or do I put it multiple school codes somehow? Or something else?

Thanks!

It's good the get the FAFSA process started early even if you don't know where you will end up. Yes, you can put in the school codes for all of the places where you have offers, which you should do.

 

[Lucca]

Do we need to do FAFSA as funded positions?

 

[klucket2]

Do we need to do FAFSA as funded positions?

No, unless an individual program requires you to do it for some reason. Unless they contact you telling you to do it, don't.

 

[Fencer]

Despite that these are funded positions from endowments or other sources of funding, FAFSA is often required by the medical schools for all of their students. You can wait until May... after all, the stipend would be the same for you regardless of the number. What changes is the source where the school takes out the funds to support you.

 

[navy kenzo]

x

 

[Fencer]

This is the weblink to the 2018-19 MSTP national list (below the map): Maps

NIH reporter is the only tool that you have to check whether a program has the grant or there is a lapse of funding. To achieve the level of excellence of MSTP, it takes a lot, as all students in the program are considered MSTP students, and programs need to track their outcomes for 15 years. A program might enter into a bit of complacency for particular renewal, and their application might not be funded for a cycle, but often those issues are corrected rather quickly in a follow-up grant submission. The majority of the MSTP positions are financed by other methods. Therefore, there is no major effect on program size. Certainly, change in leadership might be one of those reasons for difficulty renewing the MSTP grant. Now, the big elephant in the room is the new MSTP T32 FOA beginning on May 25, 2019. Every single MSTP will undergo a "new" grant application using their older track-record and other metrics of the success of their training. We still don't know how well this is going to work. Some established MSTPs might have a few months without the award. I suspect that quality programs will remain quality programs, no matter the funding source, and having a one cycle loss of funding might just be a hiccup along the road. The other aim of this new FOA is to reset the number of slots rather than by historical renewals for high proportional number of slots. The FOA aims to set the total funded slots to about 25% of total positions in the program.

 

[MSTPadvocate]

Also keep in mind that what you see on Reporter isn't necessarily reflective of what's the future funding situation. For instance, for one large program, NIH reporter says it is funded through June 30, 2019. I know for a fact from talking with the director that the renewal scored very well and they are waiting on the Notice of Award. Every program goes through this every 5 years and its nothing unusual.

If you are concerned about something like this, why not just email the director of the program? Its a reasonable question.

 

[pubh12]

@navy kenzo, now i'm curious what program you heard this about

 

[Fencer]

Another week in the 2019 cycle... Brief update as of admission actions by Friday 03/08/19 (overnight sync to today) for the 2019 AMCAS MD/PhD cycle (Changes since 03/01 admission actions).

This is the BEST result for each individual applicant (WA or AC is better than Active/Looking, which is better than Rejected - PW, PR, RJ).

Total MD/PhD Applicants ----------- 1767 (+1)
Withdrawn BEFORE AC ---------------------- 5 (-2 ?)
Rejected --------------------------------- 1067 (-14)
Actively seeking (not RJ) ----------------- 695 (+17)
At least 1 MD/PhD AC ---------------- 624 (+30) PAST 6-year average 774
Withdrawn AFTER AC ------------------------ 13 (+8 ?)
Defer to a future class ----------------------- 1 (0)
Currently MD/PhD Accepted -------------- 610 (+22)
Still looking for a MD/PhD position - 71 (-13)

Next week is the deadline for all programs to extend at least as many offers as the programs intend to enroll. Let's hope that applicants keep making their choices among acceptances. Although historical standards might not be fully applicable to this weird cycle, we should be expecting about 150 additional "first" MD/PhD acceptances among applicants who were interviewed. The past 6-year average has been a total of 774 applicants with at least one MD/PhD acceptance (range is 749-791 applicants - see post #225 of this thread).

 

[Maebea]

I do not know whether it is due to @Fencer's entreaties, but the decision-making by applicants to my program is running 2.5 weeks ahead of the average of the previous 4 years. Whatever, the explanation, keep up the good work. Make those decisions and notify programs promptly; everyone wins when you make a decision.

 

[Housekeeping_Gene]

I do not know whether it is due to @Fencer's entreaties, but the decision-making by applicants to my program is running 2.5 weeks ahead of the average of the previous 4 years. Whatever, the explanation, keep up the good work. Make those decisions and notify programs promptly; everyone wins when you make a decision.

Should we let a program know that we intend to matriculate, or is that against the rules

 

[futuredocz]

How impactful are letters of support from PIs at a school of interest (accompanying a letter of intent) in the interest of getting accepted off of the waitlist?

 

[Fencer]

Should we let a program know that we intend to matriculate, or is that against the rules

You can write a LOI as an accepted applicant indicating that you intend to matriculate. That would be helpful, particularly if you tell in writing to that particular program that you have closed your recruitment (i.e.: withdrawn from all waitlist). Now, although this LOI is not binding, please don't do it if you are not intending to do withdraw from waitlists. As indicated in a prior thread, programs have gotten burned out by false promises...

At the present time, programs have no way to tell if a particular applicant is planning to enroll or not.