2018: Step 2 CS...make it stop

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If this is so, it would effect everyone on their last station. I agree with APD and think it’s not likely that this test is that subjective. It’s more or less that it’s a stupid test that would fail someone who tries to go into it thinking they can reason through things vs. having a plug and chug strategy. The key to this exam I feel is to keep things simple, don’t try to complicate things by fixating in details.

That was the way I approached the exam... I was practicing with a girl and she was telling me to remember key phrases to say... I said f... that. I am going to approach these SP like I am interacting with patients everyday in the hospitals and clinics.

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The attempt in 2016 to end Step 2 CS attacked the NBME because this fake acting and typing exam in front of fake acting civilians in a fake, made-up, contrived scenario was ridiculously too inconvenient and expensive (it still is, now more so than before) and also because it allegedly didn't fail enough students. The point that they should have focused more on is that there is no proof whatsoever that this exam actually improves patient care and patient safety...and that the NBME is simply using this to rob students blind. All of the arguments supporting this fake acting and typing exam are made by the people who are making millions off of having it in place. It should be a crime to use this fake acting and typing exam to derail the careers of students with regards to obtaining residency...never giving any explanation to the student what went wrong with the exam other than showing "*" marks estimating their CIS, ICE, SEP performances on an "objective" report. Especially with regards to the CIS component, this fake acting and typing exam is far from objective. Putting the future careers of medical students on the line in front of civilians being paid $15/hour acting out fake cases that are just "so realistic to the actual encounter of working with a patient" and assuring us that these standardized patients won't make any mistakes or biased assessments in their grading of the student...give me a break. Medical students are being played for fools. There is such a lack of transparency with the grading of this fake acting and typing exam, it honestly makes me ill.

Didn't the last time we try this, they just responded by failing more students?
 
Didn't the last time we try this, they just responded by failing more students?
Because their reasons for getting rid of it last time were exactly because not enough students failed it. Re-read my first statement.
 
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That was the way I approached the exam... I was practicing with a girl and she was telling me to remember key phrases to say... I said f... that. I am going to approach these SP like I am interacting with patients everyday in the hospitals and clinics.

Awesome dude, I’m glad that’s worked for you. At the same time though, miss enough of those key questions and fail ICE so I wouldn’t say it’s a day in clinic and anyone who treats it as such without adequate (1 complete first aid pass) is putting themselves at risk for failing. Inb4 all these people come saying they took CS half drunk from a trip in Vegas and didn’t study a wink, please stop. That’s what’s causing all these failures. Adequately prepare people with one honest pass with First Aid and use a good partner and have a system and you should be good. This can be accomplished in a solid week. Otherwise, you can take the gamble.
 
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Awesome dude, I’m glad that’s worked for you. At the same time though, miss enough of those key questions and fail ICE so I wouldn’t say it’s a day in clinic and anyone who treats it as such without adequate (1 complete first aid pass) is putting themselves at risk for failing. Inb4 all these people come saying they took CS half drunk from a trip in Vegas and didn’t study a wink, please stop. That’s what’s causing all these failures. Adequately prepare people with one honest pass with First Aid and use a good partner and have a system and you should be good. This can be accomplished in a solid week. Otherwise, you can take the gamble.
Don't get me wrong! I studied for CS; I just did not memorize buzz phrases (i.e CIS section) . I read FA from cover to cover and practiced at least 10 cases...
 
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Yup, exactly. That’s good. CIS buzzwords are bull****, but First Aid does do a good job of identifying key questions and exam maneuvers you should be performing. Treating it like a day in clinic and doing heart, lungs, abdomen, and leg swelling will not cut it as you probably know.
 
Have to prepare very thoroughly. Practice timed, like it is the real thing.
 
Wanted to ask....has anyone ever heard of a student going in to an exam and having the standardized patient be someone that they know personally, or in real life?

If the student failed say because of the CIC component, isn't there some conflict going on there with regards to bias/subjectivity of the assessment??
 
Yeah the NBME responded real well the last time its precious Step 2 CS exam was threatened by the student body. Spoilers: they just screwed the students even harder

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Wanted to ask....has anyone ever heard of a student going in to an exam and having the standardized patient be someone that they know personally, or in real life?

If the student failed say because of the CIC component, isn't there some conflict going on there with regards to bias/subjectivity of the assessment??
 
On the DO side of the world there have been rumblings about allowing the schools themselves to administer the exam. I don't know if it would be better or worse overall but at least the travel wouldn't be such a pain.
 
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On the DO side of the world there have been rumblings about allowing the schools themselves to administer the exam. I don't know if it would be better or worse overall but at least the travel wouldn't be such a pain.
good point...
 
I’m not sure why this thread is still going...

CS sucks, is inconvenient, expensive, and just stupid overall. But it’s a part of the process.

Just make sure you 1. Take a look at first aid, 2. Practice a bit, 3. Just use whatever stupid lingo they want, and 4. Take it EARLY so if you need to re-take then you can do so before rank lists are due.
 
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I’m not sure why this thread is still going...

CS sucks, is inconvenient, expensive, and just stupid overall. But it’s a part of the process.

Just make sure you 1. Take a look at first aid, 2. Practice a bit, 3. Just use whatever stupid lingo they want, and 4. Take it EARLY so if you need to re-take then you can do so before rank lists are due.
Have you ever heard of a student having a standardized patient on the exam that they know personally, like in the real world? Do you think that would affect the performance of the student and also the objectiveness of the exam?
 
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Have you ever heard of a student having a standardized patient on the exam that they know personally, like in the real world? Do you think that would affect the performance of the student and also the objectiveness of the exam?

No, I have never heard of this. Why, did this happen to you? I feel like chances of this happening are incredibly low.
 
You can destroy the exam by doing a quick study on 'CS outcomes by race of examinees'

As with every other interview and employment study, you'll find a clear bias against blacks, hispanics, and indians. Possibly asians as well.

NBME response:

AA/Hispanics: Lower entrance stats... PR students might have some difficulty with the language, though SEP section has ~ 100% passing rate.


Indians or Asians in general: We are not too sure about their CIS

They will do and say anything to keep that money flowing.
 
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NBME response:

AA/Hispanics: Lower entrance stats... PR students might have some difficulty with the language, though SEP section has ~ 100% passing rate.


Indians or Asians in general: We are not too sure about their CIS

They will do and say anything to keep that money flowing.
Seriously though....

Does anyone know what the rules are if an examinee has a SP that they know personally in the real world? And like, not just like knowing their name, but having vast interaction with that SP...having gone to high school with them or having worked with them in the same company in a previous job ????

Very curious what the rules are with that....especially if that examinee fails the exam??
 
Seriously though....

Does anyone know what the rules are if an examinee has a SP that they know personally in the real world? And like, not just like knowing their name, but having vast interaction with that SP...having gone to high school with them or having worked with them in the same company in a previous job ????

Very curious what the rules are with that....especially if that examinee fails the exam??
You just have to sue NBME and force them to show the tapes of you interacting with these SP... I am not sure anyone knows what the rules are. Everything NBME does is opaque.
 
Really interested to see what the deal is with that...I think this has happened to examinees.
You just have to sue NBME and force them to show the tapes of you interacting with these SP... I am not sure anyone knows what the rules are. Everything NBME does is opaque.
 
I seem to recall a story about some cantankerous young Harvard kids, being on the forefront of medical education and all, who dared take on the NBME. It went something like this...

Med students: Step 2 CS is pointless, everyone passes it, it's just highway robbery...
NBME: Hmm maybe you're right, not enough people are failing CS.
Med students: Exactly that's what we're say--wait, what

And now, thanks to them, 1 out of every 10 med students fails CS. The end.
thats really the case these days . hate this silly exam.
 
NBME should be sued. Or students should just stop going to take it.
 
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NBME should be sued. Or students should just stop going to take it.

Step 2 CS is required for licensure in all 50 states. A student who refuses to take it, even if they're at a school that will allow them to graduate without it (lots do, mine did) AND gets accepted to a residency that will take them without it (questionable, state dependent), is still ineligible to ever take step 3 or get a medical license. You're welcome to sue, but for the time being, you still have to take it if you want to work as a physician.

The thing is though, this thread has a ton of hyperbole. Talking about one in ten students failing it and such. There is zero actual evidence of that. The Step 2 CS fail rate amongst US MD students as of 2016 (the last available data) is 3%. They did tighten up the standard a little bit last year, but the bulletin from last August said they made it only slightly tougher, with anticipated increase in the fail rate by 3%. My bet is it went up by less than that because medical students prepare more as time goes on, but even if it did go up to 6%, that's a far cry from 10%. And it's been 5% a few years ago. It varies in that 2-5% range every year regardless.

The test is stupid. It is a money grab from a population that can't argue with it and is often borrowing money to pay for it. It likely poorly discriminates between good and bad students. But as APD said, there's little to nothing any individual can do about it.
 
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Step 2 CS is required for licensure in all 50 states. A student who refuses to take it, even if they're at a school that will allow them to graduate without it (lots do, mine did) AND gets accepted to a residency that will take them without it (questionable, state dependent), is still ineligible to ever take step 3 or get a medical license. You're welcome to sue, but for the time being, you still have to take it if you want to work as a physician.

The thing is though, this thread has a ton of hyperbole. Talking about one in ten students failing it and such. There is zero actual evidence of that. The Step 2 CS fail rate amongst US MD students as of 2016 (the last available data) is 3%. They did tighten up the standard a little bit last year, but the bulletin from last August said they made it only slightly tougher, with anticipated increase in the fail rate by 3%. My bet is it went up by less than that because medical students prepare more as time goes on, but even if it did go up to 6%, that's a far cry from 10%. And it's been 5% a few years ago. It varies in that 2-5% range every year regardless.

The test is stupid. It is a money grab from a population that can't argue with it and is often borrowing money to pay for it. It likely poorly discriminates between good and bad students. But as APD said, there's little to nothing any individual can do about it.


It will be interesting to see the 2017 pass/fail step 2 cs rate when they come out. I still wish ever medical student in the country and on the planet would collectively just stop going to take it. Imagine the effect that would have, and the message that it would send...even if done for one week. I wish I wish I wish...
 
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Yeah and they're just words. The test isn't going anywhere just like the nfl isn't going anywhere over cte. Both are real gripes but money talks and all that bs walks.
2021: Hold my beer
 
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I hope valleyrekt can now find inner peace now that the CS beast has been slain
 
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