2019 Starting Salary For Dentists?

[321931]

Do you think with a recession tuition prices would go down or schools would be easier to get into?

Does anyone have any kind of data on this? It only makes economic sense

No, as long as the access to the money is available, why would it go down?

Ironically, I would say that schools would be harder to get into. When people lose their jobs, their livelihood, they look at other careers that can provide an income. The good thing about dentistry is that it is "recession proof." When your margins are 30-50%...and the economy tanks, you can take a sizable hit before you are in the red. Imagine if you lose 10-20% of your patient base..ok thats fine...you can sitll meet your bills and work on 10-30% margins. I can technically take a 40% hit on my margins before I am in the red. I have done the math to see the bare minimum to meet rent/loans/liabilities. 40% is like the world is ending recession. Even in the red, I have enough savings to survive 1-2 years without paying myself... So ...dentistry is pretty good. Restaurants work on 5% margins. Any fluctuation there- and you are literally out of business.

No data, but it makes sense right?

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[Anondds87]

Do you think with a recession tuition prices would go down or schools would be easier to get into?

Does anyone have any kind of data on this? It only makes economic sense

I would argue that tuition prices will continue to go up.

1: tuition is based on supply and demand. there is no shortage of kids who still think dentistry is a golden ticket and will do anything to get into dental school. Tuition has no reflection on salary after grad. It is based purely on supply and demand of number of positions offered at dental schools

2: people in general will probably be more inclined to study during a recession as job opportunities aren't as good

 

[Rambunctious]

Do you think with a recession tuition prices would go down or schools would be easier to get into?

Does anyone have any kind of data on this? It only makes economic sense

Tuition will continue to rise

 

[2TH MVR]

No, as long as the access to the money is available, why would it go down?

Ironically, I would say that schools would be harder to get into. When people lose their jobs, their livelihood, they look at other careers that can provide an income. The good thing about dentistry is that it is "recession proof." When your margins are 30-50%...and the economy tanks, you can take a sizable hit before you are in the red. Imagine if you lose 10-20% of your patient base..ok thats fine...you can sitll meet your bills and work on 10-30% margins. I can technically take a 40% hit on my margins before I am in the red. I have done the math to see the bare minimum to meet rent/loans/liabilities. 40% is like the world is ending recession. Even in the red, I have enough savings to survive 1-2 years without paying myself... So ...dentistry is pretty good. Restaurants work on 5% margins. Any fluctuation there- and you are literally out of business.

No data, but it makes sense right?

You'll find out soon enough.

 

[WingZeroM3]

What part of Cali?

Do these corporate dental offices offer benefits like 401K match and yearly bonuses?

Orange County, California.

 

[Cold Front]

Do you think with a recession tuition prices would go down or schools would be easier to get into?

Does anyone have any kind of data on this? It only makes economic sense

On the contrary, the demand for education and training goes up during a recession - therefore the tuition goes up. Since the Great Recession of 2008 - tuition and fees at dental schools doubled and in some cases tripled.

When the economy is strong, enrollment usually goes down due to workforce demand. Typically, people can get good jobs with good income without advanced degrees. Since there are about 60 dental schools with 6,000 seats, and the US population growing about 3.5 million every year - the overall demand for dentists is still very strong, and tuition will go up regardless of an economic downturn or not.

 

[GeneralDentistry4Kids]

The dentist owned group I work with starts associates out at between 140,000-170,000 per year (28-30% collections) and the variation usually depends on the location and the need for dentists there. They do a guarantee for the first 2 years and then the second contract is negotiated after that involving a percentage of collections (usually no higher than 35%). The current clinic locations are in AZ, TX, MS, and NC but there are plans to move into new states. They also offer a pretty clear path to ownership with the group. I think 14 of the 19 current owners started as associates

 

[pubhealthdent]

Do you think with a recession tuition prices would go down or schools would be easier to get into?

Does anyone have any kind of data on this? It only makes economic sense

Actually, grad schools in general typically see an increase in applicants during a recession bc its seen as a "safe shelter" to protect from unemployment, paying off existing loan debt, etc.

 

[finalpsychyear]

Man what happened to dentistry? The tuition seems insane relative to salaries. Those salary numbers seem very low as i recall 15 years ago associates getting nearly that much.

 

[AEGD Director]

Working a busy schedule at any corp/private practice clinic does not compare to a good GPR/AEGD residency because it's not only speed which needs improvement for a new grad. New grads need exposure to a variety of cases and guidance on how to treat/manage them. With that comes the confidence needed to set the new grad up for success in the real world. This is how a good GPR/AEGD program can add 3-5 of clinical experience in only 12 months.

Zesty is "spot on" ,from my prospective
In our AEGD residency here is 10 quick ''NOW" tips that come to mind, how an AEGD is way better than any CE you could possible buy or attend:
1- OS_-Root tip is broken and is close to nerve= get faculty to help you NOW..when can you leave tip? 4mm ? 3mm?
2- Endo- canal is perfed- get faculty to help you use MTA
3_endo- can't find or ledged canal made by prior pulpectomy
4-pros- flat ridge on movable tissue and pt can't afford implants-get pros specialist( Me)
5- implant pros- bridge /crown wont seat from tissue/bone interfence- get pros specialist(me) and will help you bone mill or mini flap
6-Oversight- pt swallowed a broken bur,loose crown, cavitron tip ,etc etc- get me and I will help you stay out of trouble
7-crown wont seat and xray looks open- get me and I will show how a prosth specialist handles it
8-ethical challenges come up all the time- mentorship will help you gain confidence because we have seen it all and lost much sleep in our lives
9- Perio- we learn to code properly,so that claims are not rejected( SRP is commonly miscoded)- getting flaps started and closed needs help now.
Making sure your barriers are secure for 3 weeks ..needs checked NOW...graft is ruined if barrier come loose in a week..graft is now ruined!
10- plus much more ...that is done on the spot. We work as team, we trust each other and when that happens we accel as a team and the patient magic happens. It is hard work,however it can re center the " why" you got into dentistry.

This is a typical week in our clinic.

DrE

 

[P7898]

My first job offer was for $100k. I didn't take it. Instead I did more job searching and connected with recruiters. I received guaranteed salary offers of $175k (private) & $200k (corp). I ended up not taking either of them for different reasons and settled as an associate with a different private practice. I was offered $800/day or 32% production, whichever greater and I made $180k the first year at 32 hours a week.

It's very possible to make $200k 5 years out but there's no formula, everyone's way of getting there will be different.

Did you complete an AEGD?

 

[ZestyToothpaste]

Did you complete an AEGD?

Yes

 

[monkeykey]

Yes

What is the difference between an AEGD vs a GPR vs a OMS internship? What skills do you get from each and what would be the pros and cons of each for running a private practice?

 

[P7898]

Yes

Do you think that had any influence on your salary when it came time to negotiate?

 

[Rambunctious]

What is the difference between an AEGD vs a GPR vs a OMS internship? What skills do you get from each and what would be the pros and cons of each for running a private practice?

 

[monkeykey]

I guess it may also be worth asking. What can a new dentist expect in terms of time off? How much do corps offer? Would this ever be equivalent to MDs who seem to be averaging 6 weeks of PTO?

 

[theleatherwalle]

I was a 2015 graduate, but my offer was 120k a year salary with 2 week vacation and 6 paid holidays. I talked to a recent to a graduate of the 2019 class recently. He had the exact same offer.

 

[pubhealthdent]

I guess it may also be worth asking. What can a new dentist expect in terms of time off? How much do corps offer? Would this ever be equivalent to MDs who seem to be averaging 6 weeks of PTO?

4 weeks vacation, 2 weeks CE, 8 holidays in public health

 

[monkeykey]

I was a 2015 graduate, but my offer was 120k a year salary with 2 week vacation and 6 paid holidays. I talked to a recent to a graduate of the 2019 class recently. He had the exact same offer.

Is this with a 5 day work week?

 

[monkeykey]

4 weeks vacation, 2 weeks CE, 8 holidays in public health

Do you think public health might be a better route for new grads? Seems like it would pay around the same as a new Corp job but with better benefits and probably a wider selection of procedural experience.

 

[pubhealthdent]

Do you think public health might be a better route for new grads? Seems like it would pay around the same as a new Corp job but with better benefits and probably a wider selection of procedural experience.

I'm obviously biased but I would definitely recommend public health for new grads. Likely dont get the opportunity to do any of the full mouth rehab/implant cases that you may be able to get from corporate but it's a great place to start and build up your speed

 

[monkeykey]

I'm obviously biased but I would definitely recommend public health for new grads. Likely dont get the opportunity to do any of the full mouth rehab/implant cases that you may be able to get from corporate but it's a great place to start and build up your speed

What procedures does public health mainly consist of? Are you basically proving government care for people for free and being paid by the government? Is this an accurate depiction of public health?

 

[pubhealthdent]

What procedures does public health mainly consist of? Are you basically proving government care for people for free and being paid by the government? Is this an accurate depiction of public health?

Filling, extractions, dentures, crowns, root canals.

Well Medicaid is funded by mostly by tax money so the fed is paying me and we all are paying for their care

 

[AONLINE]

@pubhealthdent, when you were job searching did you come across a lot of public health jobs in big cities?

 

[monkeykey]

I was a 2015 graduate, but my offer was 120k a year salary with 2 week vacation and 6 paid holidays. I talked to a recent to a graduate of the 2019 class recently. He had the exact same offer.

Also would this be in what’s considered a saturated big city?

 

[pubhealthdent]

@pubhealthdent, when you were job searching did you come across a lot of public health jobs in big cities?

They're definitely out there, I wasnt really looking for jobs in bigger cities but I did stumble across a few

 

[theleatherwalle]

Is this with a 5 day work week?

Well, I worked 9 days a week but it still came out to 40 hours a week. Looking back at my original contract. I only had 1 week vacation and another week was offered after 1 year with the DSO. You had a bonus potential of 2k up 10k if you hit certain production and recall goals.

Also would this be in what’s considered a saturated big city?

I live in a saturated in south-eastern metropolitan area. I have seen recently many new grads only getting offers to work 2-3 days a week and having to drive an hour out to find full time positions and most private practices only offering 100k to have a full time associate.

Dentist earnings have not moved in nearly 10 years. I honestly would expect them to move in a negative direction instead of a positive one in the future.. I will say the vast majority of salaries or earnings are location dependent, but I recently attended a lecture that showed dentist to patient ratio in the USA. Ideally, you want less than 60 dentist to 100,000 people. Once you go over 60, you have reached saturation. We are currently above 61 and the number is expected to climb steadily in the next 5-10 years as 6,000 grads are pumped out per year.

This is still the best job in the US of A though and you can make a killing in certain markets as I know practice owners making 300-400k

 

[monkeykey]

Well, I worked 9 days a week but it still came out to 40 hours a week. Looking back at my original contract. I only had 1 week vacation and another week was offered after 1 year with the DSO. You had a bonus potential of 2k up 10k if you hit certain production and recall goals.



I live in a saturated in south-eastern metropolitan area. I have seen recently many new grads only getting offers to work 2-3 days a week and having to drive an hour out to find full time positions and most private practices only offering 100k to have a full time associate.

Dentist earnings have not moved in nearly 10 years. I honestly would expect them to move in a negative direction instead of a positive one in the future.. I will say the vast majority of salaries or earnings are location dependent, but I recently attended a lecture that showed dentist to patient ratio in the USA. Ideally, you want less than 60 dentist to 100,000 people. Once you go over 60, you have reached saturation. We are currently above 61 and the number is expected to climb steadily in the next 5-10 years as 6,000 grads are pumped out per year.

This is still the best job in the US of A though and you can make a killing in certain markets as I know practice owners making 300-400k

What?? 9 days a week? Sounds like it sucked

 

[Cold Front]

There is no salary in dentistry. You eat what you kill. Good luck!

Precisely. Every employer knows that as a fact. New grads income will be based on; speed > how busy the office is > insurances/production - the trifecta! There is no magic number for income. If you are a slow and shaky new grad, don’t expect to make over $150k first year or second year, maybe longer. If you are fast, confident and motivated - the opposite is true.

It’s as simple as that.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[laundry]

lol....tuition to go DOWN? I will eat my shoes if this happens.

I pay my associates 27% production for GP and 40% for specialists. No daily minimum.

 

[AONLINE]

I pay my associates 27% production for GP.

27% of production or collection? This number is on the low side. Are you located in a saturated city/suburb?

 

[laundry]

Production. SF Bay Area. Maybe low, but they made 200K plus on four 7-hr days...

 

[P7898]

27% of production or collection? This number is on the low side. Are you located in a saturated city/suburb?

Production is key. I don't think a dentist should get paid on collections. As an associate, it is not their job to collect payments.

 

[Anondds87]

Production. SF Bay Area. Maybe low, but they made 200K plus on four 7-hr days...

How are they producing so much? What does a normal day look like for them?

 

[monkeykey]

How do I become a “production god” ?

 

[laundry]

Production is key. I don't think a dentist should get paid on collections. As an associate, it is not their job to collect payments.

Amen. I didn't think so when I was one, so I treat mine like I would have liked to be treated.

How are they producing so much? What does a normal day look like for them?

How do I become a “production god” ?

I don't think that producing ~800K on 4 days constitutes a god like status, but here's a typical day (keep in mind we are a 50/50 mix of delta ppo and FFS, as we are only in network with Delta, which is why our fees fluctuate patient by patient):
9am-10am: #14 BU/crown ($1700)
10am-10:30am: #2MO, #30DO composites ($260)
10:30am-12pm: #4RCT/BU ($1150) and cement (double book)
12pm-1pm: #4MOD ($174)
1pm-2pm: lunch
2pm-3pm: #19 MODL onlay ($990)
3pm-3:30pm: limited exam, BWX/PA ($210)
3:30pm-4:30pm: #2 BU/crown ($912)
4:30pm-5pm: cement
Plus exams from 2 columns of hygiene (~$200)

Total daily production: $5596 [x0.27 = $1510]

We are open ~48 weeks 4 days per week, so $1500x48x4=$288K

 

[AONLINE]

Amen. I didn't think so when I was one, so I treat mine like I would have liked to be treated.




I don't think that producing ~800K on 4 days constitutes a god like status, but here's a typical day (keep in mind we are a 50/50 mix of delta ppo and FFS, as we are only in network with Delta, which is why our fees fluctuate patient by patient):
9am-10am: #14 BU/crown ($1700)
10am-10:30am: #2MO, #30DO composites ($260)
10:30am-12pm: #4RCT/BU ($1150) and cement (double book)
12pm-1pm: #4MOD ($174)
1pm-2pm: lunch
2pm-3pm: #19 MODL onlay ($990)
3pm-3:30pm: limited exam, BWX/PA ($210)
3:30pm-4:30pm: #2 BU/crown ($912)
4:30pm-5pm: cement
Plus exams from 2 columns of hygiene (~$200)

Total daily production: $5596 [x0.27 = $1510]

We are open ~48 weeks 4 days per week, so $1500x48x4=$288K

This sounds like a dream job. Are your associates relatively new dentists or seasoned veterans?


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[laundry]

New dentists. I trained them in school.

This sounds like a dream job. Are your associates relatively new dentists or seasoned veterans?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

 

[monkeykey]

@laundry what do you think you are doing differently? Are most dentist struggling with speed or having enough patients or billing expensive procedures?

 

[laundry]

@laundry what do you think you are doing differently? Are most dentist struggling with speed or having enough patients or billing expensive procedures?

I know I’m doing something different. Different enough to have a successful consulting business to other offices.

And no, demographics, geography, etc dont matter

 

[cyro8]

You could work for Indian Health Service. It’s a federal entity, so there’s a guaranteed salary......and federal salaries are public information, so you can see how much dentists make in the VA, Indian Health Service (IHS), and BOP.

The thing about IHS is that they can pay you recruitment and retention incentives and they offer loan repayment as well.

I think most dentists start off between 140-180k before incentives and loan repayment.

With federal retirement, you get a pension, a rocking 401k (TSP), and excellent health insurance.

Downside is Most of these clinics are extremely rural and there’s a low compliance rate with the population, but it’s a job that will provide you unmatched benefits in the industry.

Here’s a salary list for dental officers with IHS.

Search Federal Employee Salaries

Search individual federal employee salaries by name, job title, location, agency and year

www.fedsdatacenter.com

 

[pubhealthdent]

With federal retirement, you get a pension, a rocking 401k (TSP), and excellent health insurance.

Downside is Most of these clinics are extremely rural and there’s a low compliance rate with the population, but it’s a job that will provide you unmatched benefits in the industry.

Here’s a salary list for dental officers with IHS.

Search Federal Employee Salaries

Search individual federal employee salaries by name, job title, location, agency and year

www.fedsdatacenter.com

Be careful. Those benefits (same as military or govt employees) only apply if you work in IHS as a Public Health Service Commissioned Corp Member. Otherwise you're simply an employee of the IHS clinic with non-govt benefits.

And they have plenty of clinics in larger metro/suburban areas, especially in the southwest. And compliance rate is also going to vary drastically from one clinic to another. Really can't generalize too much when talking about public health or Indian health because every clinic is it's own entity and operates on it's own accord

 

[cyro8]

If you have any general questions with how the federal system works

Be careful. Those benefits (same as military or govt employees) only apply if you work in IHS as a Public Health Service Commissioned Corp Member. Otherwise you're simply an employee of the IHS clinic with non-govt benefits.

And they have plenty of clinics in larger metro/suburban areas, especially in the southwest. And compliance rate is also going to vary drastically from one clinic to another. Really can't generalize too much when talking about public health or Indian health because every clinic is it's own entity and operates on it's own accord

what are you talking about? Indian health service employees ARE federal employees and you can work as a federal civilian in those clinics. How do I know? My wife works for Indian Health Service as a civilian. It’s a mixture of USPHS and civilian employees. If you work for a tribal (PL 93-638 facility), then you won’t have access to federal benefits.

how did you get the idea IHS dentists only had to be commissioned corps?

 

[pubhealthdent]

If you have any general questions with how the federal system works

what are you talking about? Indian health service employees ARE federal employees and you can work as a federal civilian in those clinics. How do I know? My wife works for Indian Health Service as a civilian. It’s a mixture of USPHS and civilian employees. If you work for a tribal (PL 93-638 facility), then you won’t have access to federal benefits.

how did you get the idea IHS dentists only had to be commissioned corps?

Not what I said. You can't get military/govt benefits if you're hired as a civilian hire

 

[cyro8]

Not what I said. You can't get military/govt benefits if you're hired as a civilian hire

You don’t get military benefits unless you’re commissioned Corp. YOU DO get government benefits if you work for an IHS run facility.
Did you interview at a tribal facility or a facility that is run by IHS?

 

[pubhealthdent]

You don’t get military benefits unless you’re commissioned Corp. YOU DO get government benefits if you work for an IHS run facility.
Did you interview at a tribal facility or a facility that is run by IHS?

Both

 

[cyro8]

Both

I can assure you that you can get federal benefits as an IHS dentist. I live with 5 of them in our compound and none are USPHS.

 

[ldomfs]

As an OMFS from eastern Europe, in practice for 8 years now, would like to inquire about opportunities of reaching Oral Surgery field in the States, upon graduation from US dental school as a GP.
In other words, how realistic is to anticipate to find a full time job, limited mostly or solely to OS procedures, having in mind the only employement option would be corporate dentistry (not a green card holder).
Assuming volume of OS cases in an average office is not high enough to get busy 40 hrs/wk, moreover I might not be the first choice on the job market (many US trained OMFS looking for same, even in remote areas)...
Alternatively, is combining 2 or more offices technically possible at all (as a fresh grad) without breaking trust or ethical rules by referring my check ups or complications to other colleagues with less or no surgical experience....
Having no plans on additional training, the private loan has to be payed off.
Any thoughts would be most appreciated.
Many thx!

 

[ldomfs]

As an OMFS from eastern Europe, in practice for 8 years now, would like to inquire about opportunities of reaching Oral Surgery field in the States, upon graduation from US dental school as a GP.
In other words, how realistic is to anticipate to find a full time job, limited mostly or solely to OS procedures, having in mind the only employement option would be corporate dentistry (not a green card holder).
Assuming volume of OS cases in an average office is not high enough to get busy 40 hrs/wk, moreover I might not be the first choice on the job market (many US trained OMFS looking for same, even in remote areas)...
Alternatively, is combining 2 or more offices technically possible at all (as a fresh grad) without breaking trust or ethical rules by referring my check ups or complications to other colleagues with less or no surgical experience....
Having no plans on additional training, the private loan has to be payed off.
Any thoughts would be most appreciated.
Many thx!

 

[allDAT]

The challenge you’ll have is that reimbursement for surgery as a GP is sometimes absurdly low, so the corporations depend on the specialists to get higher reimbursement from insurances.

I don’t know what you’re job outlook will really look like, but my best guess would be not great if you want to limit your practice to OS, and need FT employment.