2021 ARRO Graduating Resident Jobs Survey

[dieABRdie]

They definitely mixed this data up. This graph actually represents 100 job solicitations FROM the residents... not the other way around.

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[madchemist89]

I had zero solicitations.

 

[fiji128]

Looking at their page, out of the past five years' worth of graduates, 3 went into fellowship: Our trainees - For Professionals | Northwell Health

There is one who was a research fellow but unsure if they continued on a research-based track or in straight clinical practice.

I personally know one of the former residents on that page and they also did a post residency fellowship but its not listed (site just states the current employer), lol. So that makes at least 4 of 12.

 

[RickyScott]

This is what "they" are counting on.

In American culture, it's relatively taboo to talk about salary. Doubly so with medical culture, with the added wrinkle that people often refer to it as a "calling" and whenever physicians indicate that they're human beings with wants and needs (like geography preferences), it can get quickly twisted into you "not doing what's best/right for your patients".

Throw into the mix: to successfully survive the gauntlet of education and training it requires to independently practice medicine in America, it requires years of making sure you're conforming to the system and only answering "how high" to the question of "jump", lest you not get a much needed "Honors" in a clerkship, a rec letter for residency, or a phone call on your behalf for a job.

This is how the system has evolved to where it is, RadOnc or otherwise. They'll continue to pay us just enough where we feel guilty voicing grievances. Compared to the prior generation of Radiation Oncologists, we get paid less (certainly in relative terms, and often in absolute terms), with less autonomy, and more paperwork. However, we still get paid significantly more than the average American household income, and so we feel bad about asking for more.

Isn't there the metaphor about frogs placed in a pot of warm water? It's like that.

The calling started with the notion that a truly worthy radonc should be location agnostic, willing to live thousands of miles from family and friends.

 

[GapCalc]

When I was a brand new PGY5 just a few years ago, my very famous chair invited me to their office to discuss my job interests. I explained what I was looking for: community based practice, either freestanding or hospital based, open to satellites or hospital employment, and with an airport that had direct flights to the town where I trained (big city with >2M population). We reviewed my CV and cover letter, after which limited feedback was provided.

When asked about salary expectations, I said I hoped to make the ARRO average to start, and get up to median RO salaries as posted on MGMA etc within 5ish years.

Chair: (paraphrasing) "You're expecting too much. I think the days of radiation oncologists making that kind of money are over."

Chair went on to ask if I'd be interested in a job in a city which met none of my criteria, working for another (overpaid) chair. That was the extent of their involvement in my job search. No phone calls were made, no emails sent. Pretty cool. Luckily, I found a spot on my own that is working out well but definitely don't feel like I have any flexibility to move given these conditions.

 

[deleted1111261]

Wow. Your chair spoke to you? Like you were an actual human being? Interesting. Our department didn’t even discuss positions with us (in our out of our department). No phone calls were made.

 

[communitydoc13]

Chair went on to ask if I'd be interested in a job in a city which met none of my criteria, working for another (overpaid) chair.

I honestly hate the standing chair position model. Chair club serves nobody but chairs. I've commented on this before. Solution is rotating chairmanship for mid to late career physicians as an administrative duty with 3 year terms. This is how they do it in many non-medical departments. This takes away so much from the cult of personality bs and the conflating of being in an administratively powerful position and actually being a thoughtful or good doctor. This would actually help even relatively august academic places with retention of mid-career docs (not a problem in radonc for obvious reasons).

 

[medgator]

Wow. Your chair spoke to you? Like you were an actual human being? Interesting. Our department didn’t even discuss positions with us (in our out of our department). No phone calls were made.

Sounds like you won. That chair conversation sounded awful. My chair didn't do jack for me or talk to me either. Would probably prefer that over them whoring me out to another chair as cheap attending labor, Hallahan style

 

[deleted1116990]

I’m just tired of the same old fight.

The young generation tells us on paper that the landscape is good. Potters’ says things are fine and only a sock puppet and me respond. Nobody publicly will admit that they are working harder for less, that they have less autonomy, that admin is making their lives more difficult, that the day to day practice is not the same, that it’s fine.

Simul, it is a fight. I also interviewed recently as an experienced grad and made a lateral move (which seems to have been a step backwards). I can say confidently that there is much less opportunity now than there was a few years ago. Chairs and program directors are very upset, understandably, about declining applicant quality and are looking for someone to blame. The problem is that they specifically blame this website for spreading what they view as lies about there being no jobs and scaring applicants away. There's a disconnect here. They are believing something that isn't true, that people like us who have looked for work recently are lying and saying there are none. There are places that need rad oncs, definitely. Virtually all of us will be able to put food on the table with a 6 figure income. What we are saying is that the landscape has changed dramatically and that the opportunities that were there before aren't there anymore. Many areas of the country are essentially off limits. For instance, for myself, I can confidently say that there are no jobs for me in Florida. I have tried and tried. I will never get work there because of the names on my C.V. So are there really no jobs? Technically no, I can find work in Wisconsin. But not in Florida. And if by some miracle, I did ever get a call back from a Florida practice, it would be non-negotiable. The middleman between you and payors takes a bigger cut now because he can. This is what is scaring med students away. Not the lie that they will be unemployed and have to retrain in something else. There are plenty of other fields they can go into and make comparable amounts of money and find a job in Florida if they want it.

 

[deleted1111261]

Simul, it is a fight. I also interviewed recently as an experienced grad and made a lateral move (which seems to have been a step backwards). I can say confidently that there is much less opportunity now than there was a few years ago. Chairs and program directors are very upset, understandably, about declining applicant quality and are looking for someone to blame. The problem is that they specifically blame this website for spreading what they view as lies about there being no jobs and scaring applicants away. There's a disconnect here. They are believing something that isn't true, that people like us who have looked for work recently are lying and saying there are none. There are places that need rad oncs, definitely. Virtually all of us will be able to put food on the table with a 6 figure income. What we are saying is that the landscape has changed dramatically and that the opportunities that were there before aren't there anymore. Many areas of the country are essentially off limits. For instance, for myself, I can confidently say that there are no jobs for me in Florida. I have tried and tried. I will never get work there because of the names on my C.V. So are there really no jobs? Technically no, I can find work in Wisconsin. But not in Florida. And if by some miracle, I did ever get a call back from a Florida practice, it would be non-negotiable. The middleman between you and payors takes a bigger cut now because he can. This is what is scaring med students away. Not the lie that they will be unemployed and have to retrain in something else. There are plenty of other fields they can go into and make comparable amounts of money and find a job in Florida if they want it.

I 100% agree, but if no one says this publicly, then the assumption is that we are anonymous and lying. People call me all sorts of things and blame all sorts of things on me. If nobody else says anything or backs me up, then I look like a liar. So, what's the point?

 

[RickyScott]

… whoring me out to another chair as cheap attending labor, Hallahan style

Ain’t no fun if the homies can’t have none.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Wow. Your chair spoke to you? Like you were an actual human being? Interesting. Our department didn’t even discuss positions with us (in our out of our department). No phone calls were made.

Beginning of PGY5 year, my chair offered me a position. I explained that I wanted to move closer to my (and partner's) family.

He promptly got up and walked away without saying a word. Didn't speak to me the rest of the year, including a 3 month rotation with him. Like honest to goodness didn't speak to me. Even as we were sitting there together waiting for a patient. I just did all his work and treated all his patients without complaint.

It was actually the best year of my residency.

 

[deleted1116990]

I 100% agree, but if no one says this publicly, then the assumption is that we are anonymous and lying. People call me all sorts of things and blame all sorts of things on me. If nobody else says anything or backs me up, then I look like a liar. So, what's the point?

You're a brave man. You surely know that you have closed doors by putting your name out there. I hope I can get to that point one day. Unfortunately, I, like so many, can't afford to close doors in this market right now. I avoid lying, but I have learned when it's crucial to keep my mouth shut and when I can get away with presenting a different opinion. I have personally made the mistake before of calling out my superiors on obvious lies. While I was right and able to prove it, ultimately nothing I said or did hurt them, it only hurt me. They knew it was a lie, everyone knew it was a lie. So what did I accomplish by pointing out what everyone already knew? Luckily they just ignored me, but in retrospect, as a resident this was stupid -- I had far more to lose than to gain and I burned bridges over something trivial in the long run. So yeah, you are definitely hurting yourself and doing it knowingly, but the difference is I do think you are helping others in the long run. What you're doing is not stupid because you know and accept the risks up front and you're not doing it just for yourself. So that's admirable and worth something. Keep saying what you think -- it's important.

 

[RickyScott]

When I was a brand new PGY5 just a few years ago, my very famous chair invited me to their office to discuss my job interests. I explained what I was looking for: community based practice, either freestanding or hospital based, open to satellites or hospital employment, and with an airport that had direct flights to the town where I trained (big city with >2M population). We reviewed my CV and cover letter, after which limited feedback was provided.

When asked about salary expectations, I said I hoped to make the ARRO average to start, and get up to median RO salaries as posted on MGMA etc within 5ish years.

Chair: (paraphrasing) "You're expecting too much. I think the days of radiation oncologists making that kind of money are over."

Chair went on to ask if I'd be interested in a job in a city which met none of my criteria, working for another (overpaid) chair. That was the extent of their involvement in my job search. No phone calls were made, no emails sent. Pretty cool. Luckily, I found a spot on my own that is working out well but definitely don't feel like I have any flexibility to move given these conditions.

While many university hospitals are recovering 5x cms prices and chair salaries have exploded, you should be ashamed to expect median or historical radonc pay! And a job near family and friends? wtf you ungrateful bastard.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

I truly believe that an inflection point is coming and hard data re: bad times will be here soon. 'Til then we are climate modeling and forecasting really bad problems. And comparing to the past when things were awesome... things are easily much less awesome now, but they are not conflagrational. APM cancellation provided a respite.

More rad oncs are keeping upward pressure on the amount of money rad onc "costs" society; this cost would be falling were it not for rad onc over-supply (hypofractioning and decreasing RT utilization would mean less cost... these are hard facts and not predictions!). One ever increasing sign of rad onc over-supply, and a thorn in all of our sides, is more and more Evicore battling... and Medicare's APM fascination.

One thing is for certain: workforce studies, or papers on under- or over-supply, are COMPLETELY USELESS in rad onc. No one listens to data; everyone just will believe whatever one wants to believe to fit one's own narrative(s). There's a plethora of jobs in rad onc, and 2 solid job offers per graduating resident is 95% or more less job offers than residents in other specialties but 100% more job offers than one really needs!

I have always said that the next recession would prompt the "bad times" due to delayed retirements and practices belt tightening.

 

[deleted1111261]

I have always said that the next recession would prompt the "bad times" due to delayed retirements and practices belt tightening.

Bad times can (will?) occur, but the gaslighting / "everything is fine" mentality will not change. Look at social media. As long as the charlatans continue to say everything is fine, get 200 likes and re-tweets, students won't know the difference. The applicant numbers have stabilized (forget about defining or talking about quality of candidates; irrelevant). No programs are contracting. We are probably a few years from further expansion. My guess is a few years from now, people that think like us will be further marginalized, the groupthink will persist and an ideal job will be 20 on beam, a low base, 10% quality incentives and this will be in not so great areas. And, the people that everyone will listen to will forget the past and say that this is how it always was and it's great.

Sorry, I think the gloomy weather has gotten to me.

 

[TheWallnerus]

People call me all sorts of things and blame all sorts of things on me.

He promptly got up and walked away without saying a word. Didn't speak to me the rest of the year, including a 3 month rotation with him.

the groupthink will persist and an ideal job will be 20 on beam, $450k base, 10% quality incentives and this will be in not so great areas

🤮

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Bad times can (will?) occur, but the gaslighting / "everything is fine" mentality will not change. Look at social media. As long as the charlatans continue to say everything is fine, get 200 likes and re-tweets, students won't know the difference. The applicant numbers have stabilized (forget about defining or talking about quality of candidates; irrelevant). No programs are contracting. We are probably a few years from further expansion. My guess is a few years from now, people that think like us will be further marginalized, the groupthink will persist and an ideal job will be 20 on beam, $450k base, 10% quality incentives and this will be in not so great areas. And, the people that everyone will listen to will forget the past and say that this is how it always was and it's great.

Sorry, I think the gloomy weather has gotten to me.

If we didn't know what the landscape looked like 10-15 years ago, we probably wouldn't think this is too bad either.

If that's the "worst" outcome for everyone, it'd be great. I fear far worse outcomes for many.

 

[deleted1116990]

My guess is a few years from now, people that think like us will be further marginalized, the groupthink will persist and an ideal job will be 20 on beam, $450k base, 10% quality incentives and this will be in not so great areas.

You just described all employed jobs in the country's interior. It's not a bad life, but the problem is there is no upward mobility and the multiple levels of disassociation from what you do and how you get paid for your service causes people to just check out and become button clickers following guidelines and doing the bare minimum. It also allows administrators to slowly creep more work in for less pay over time.

It's going to be hard for residencies to have it both ways. If you want to attract the highest quality and highest scoring med students, you are going to have to prove to them that there is a path to high earning potential without diminishing returns for increasing effort. Saying, hey no matter what you do or how hard you work you'll make around 450k will make rad onc a middle of the road specialty and you will get middle of the road applicants. The ones who are willing to bust their butts will choose ortho or urology or something while those than just want to check out and live a nice life will do something like anesthesia or EM with a higher number of practitioners. Rad onc will attract the kinds of students that are already choosing these fields for these reasons. I think that's what's changed in the calculus. It's not that the jobs are all gone, it's just that rad onc seems to be re-inventing itself as an EM-like specialty, where you clock in, do your tasks, leave, and make a relatively consistent paycheck totally removed from the business.

 

[radiation]

I think a big part of the angst on this board about jobs is where the current situation is, and where most people think the current situation ought to be if all was logical and fair in the world. I think the reality of the situation is that the salary and job security of the "golden years" will end up in the long run being the outlier situation. Some will say that it didn't have to be this way and that the bad actors in the field are responsible for ruining a great thing. They might be right, but no matter where the blame goes it doesn't change how things will look in the future. So comparing today's and tomorrow's jobs to yesteryear's is really a futile exercise - its never going back to that era. So even if today's jobs are comparatively objectively worse, it behooves people to judge them on their own terms independent of the past. Its almost like a kind of work inflation - your worth is less now than it was before and there's really nothing that can be done about it.

Nevertheless as it has been said in on this board many times, most of us actually like our jobs, so even if you are pessimistic about the future and feel like the pay is not fair compared to what we "should" get paid, I can understand why a med student would still want to do it - because at the end of the day the job itself is a pretty sweet gig (meaningful outpatient work with no nights or weekends will always be desirable).

 

[RickyScott]

I think a big part of the angst on this board about jobs is where the current situation is, and where most people think the current situation ought to be if all was logical and fair in the world. I think the reality of the situation is that the salary and job security of the "golden years" will end up in the long run being the outlier situation. Some will say that it didn't have to be this way and that the bad actors in the field are responsible for ruining a great thing. They might be right, but no matter where the blame goes it doesn't change how things will look in the future. So comparing today's and tomorrow's jobs to yesteryear's is really a futile exercise - its never going back to that era. So even if today's jobs are comparatively objectively worse, it behooves people to judge them on their own terms independent of the past. Its almost like a kind of work inflation - your worth is less now than it was before and there's really nothing that can be done about it.

Nevertheless as it has been said in on this board many times, most of us actually like our jobs, so even if you are pessimistic about the future and feel like the pay is not fair compared to what we "should" get paid, I can understand why a med student would still want to do it - because at the end of the day the job itself is a pretty sweet gig (meaningful outpatient work with no nights or weekends will always be desirable).

So if a medstudent is happy earning a below than average physician salary in a location far from family and friends, then by all means, radonc calls. There is also the Worst case existential scenario where they end up unemployed, a risk which does not exist in the rest of medicine. Lots of interesting specialties to choose from.

In the original limb xrt sparing sarcoma trials, I thought there was no qol difference between amputees and limb preservation arm. Amputees were just so happy to be cancer free.

 

[fiji128]

Bad times can (will?) occur, but the gaslighting / "everything is fine" mentality will not change. Look at social media. As long as the charlatans continue to say everything is fine, get 200 likes and re-tweets, students won't know the difference. The applicant numbers have stabilized (forget about defining or talking about quality of candidates; irrelevant). No programs are contracting. We are probably a few years from further expansion. My guess is a few years from now, people that think like us will be further marginalized, the groupthink will persist and an ideal job will be 20 on beam, $450k base, 10% quality incentives and this will be in not so great areas. And, the people that everyone will listen to will forget the past and say that this is how it always was and it's great.

Sorry, I think the gloomy weather has gotten to me.

Basically my job now. No way anything in the speciality changes for the better moving into the future on a macro level. Best case we can tread water for awhile and not lose ground. The math of shrinking footprint while pumping out more grads then docs retiring is inescapable as gravity. The people in a position to change this do not care. Save aggressively and develop other interest so you can FIRE out when you choose to.

 

[deleted1111261]

Basically my job now. No way anything in the speciality changes for the better moving into the future on a macro level. Best case we can tread water for awhile and not lose ground. The math of shrinking footprint while pumping out more grads then docs retiring is inescapable as gravity. The people in a position to change this do not care. Save aggressively and develop other interest so you can FIRE out when you choose to.

Well.. it’s you and other people here that say this. And I believe you. This just gives credence to what I’ve been saying the last few days. Nobody says this publicly and non anonymously. So, basically it doesn’t exist - “angry internet people”. The surveys and the popular people say it’s fine. So, it’s fine. Until there are real faces saying it’s bad out there, it’s just rumors / “SDN” making stuff up. I don’t mean to say you are. Just perception.

 

[medgator]

Well.. it’s you and other people here that say this. And I believe you. This just gives credence to what I’ve been saying the last few days. Nobody says this publicly and non anonymously. So, basically it doesn’t exist - “angry internet people”. The surveys and the popular people say it’s fine. So, it’s fine. Until there are real faces saying it’s bad out there, it’s just rumors / “SDN” making stuff up. I don’t mean to say you are. Just perception.

People say it in private all the time, med students come on here and have said as much when they are applying/rotating through the field.

Obviously it isn't just a bunch of angry anonymous internet malcontents that have tanked the match multiple years in a row now??

 

[deleted1111261]

People say it in private all the time, med students come on here and have said as much when they are applying/rotating through the field.

Obviously it isn't just a bunch of angry anonymous internet malcontents that have tanked the match multiple years in a row now??

Doesn’t matter. Applicant numbers stabilized. Surveys say there are jobs.

That is so interesting that you think the match was tanked. How many spots weren’t filled after SOAP?

But, okay …

 

[medgator]

Doesn’t matter. Applicant numbers stabilized. Surveys say there are jobs.

That is so interesting that you think the match was tanked. How many spots weren’t filled after SOAP?

But, okay …

It is a different time now and any slot is a good slot to the right applicant.

Medical school enrollments grow, but residency slots haven’t kept pace

The AAMC’s annual survey shows student body growth won’t alleviate physician shortage unless residency and clinical training site shortfalls also are addressed.

www.aamc.org

Remember some of these rad onc matches couldn't even secure pgy1 prelim surgery spots last cycle. What happens when some of these folks actually have to try and take boards? Hospitals will stop caring about board certification? Paul and Lisa going to nuke the oral boards once and for all?

Do you think the current situation is sustainable long term?

 

[RickyScott]

I can’t prove this, but I am quite sure that most the American MDs in the match are not very intelligent/utter tools or both. Qualitatively I have heard this comes through via eloquence of candidates during interviews.

 

[medgator]

I can’t prove this, but I am quite sure that most the American MDs in the match are not very intelligent/utter tools or both. Qualitatively I have heard this comes through via eloquence of candidates during interviews.

Plenty of anecdotal evidence to support this regarding many grads from the 70s and 90s

 

[radiation]

I can’t prove this, but I am quite sure that most the American MDs in the match are not very intelligent/utter tools or both. Qualitatively I have heard this comes through via eloquence of candidates during interviews.

this is why no one takes the board seriously when people say they want to try to help med students make the right career choices etc. People come on the board to vent and convince others they are right and other people are wrong.

 

[medgator]

this is why no one takes the board seriously when people say they want to try to help med students make the right career choices etc. People come on the board to vent and convince others they are right and other people are wrong.

Yeah clearly no one has been taking this board seriously and the match has been totally normal since 2019 🙄

 

[deleted1111261]

And so? Spots are filled. Don’t what to tell ya. The problem is - there is no mechanism that doesn’t rely on people speaking openly / honestly to help change things. Potters goes out there with a complete clown comment, bro and it’s me and Ridge and then utter silence. How can change happen?

 

[radiation]

Yeah clearly no one has been taking this board seriously and the match has been totally normal since 2019 🙄

You are deep in your career coming on a website called Student Doctor Network calling med students utter tools because you don't agree with their decisions, I think it probably says more about you than them

 

[medgator]

You are deep in your career coming on a website called Student Doctor Network calling med students utter tools because you don't agree with their decisions, I think it probably says more about you than them

Says the guy who's been sticking his head in the sand the last few years wrt to the match and the specialty at large? You're the one who actually has to deal with this, being in academics and all 😂. At least you aren't talking about expansion or telling us contraction is a waste of time anymore though.... Whew

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

My guess is a few years from now, people that think like us will be further marginalized, the groupthink will persist and an ideal job will be 20 on beam, $450k base, 10% quality incentives and this will be in not so great areas. And, the people that everyone will listen to will forget the past and say that this is how it always was and it's great.

You just described all employed jobs in the country's interior. It's not a bad life, but the problem is there is no upward mobility and the multiple levels of disassociation from what you do and how you get paid for your service causes people to just check out and become button clickers following guidelines and doing the bare minimum. It also allows administrators to slowly creep more work in for less pay over time.

I think a big part of the angst on this board about jobs is where the current situation is, and where most people think the current situation ought to be if all was logical and fair in the world. I think the reality of the situation is that the salary and job security of the "golden years" will end up in the long run being the outlier situation. Some will say that it didn't have to be this way and that the bad actors in the field are responsible for ruining a great thing. They might be right, but no matter where the blame goes it doesn't change how things will look in the future. So comparing today's and tomorrow's jobs to yesteryear's is really a futile exercise - its never going back to that era. So even if today's jobs are comparatively objectively worse, it behooves people to judge them on their own terms independent of the past. Its almost like a kind of work inflation - your worth is less now than it was before and there's really nothing that can be done about it.

I think these three posts basically summarize where we are, and where we're headed.

Even though $450k base means less and less year after year due to inflation, student loan debt, etc - most everyone else in America faces similar issues, and $450k will put you in the bottom half of the top 1%, at least during our lifetimes (barring some systemic collapse).

As such, people will feel guilty "asking for more". People will say that it's "futile" comparing previous job opportunities to the current and future opportunities, "even if they are objectively worse".

Which is fine, I guess. But the academicians with residency programs need to seriously recalibrate expectations of quality and interest. While 20 on beam (an easy 40 hour week, if that) for $450k is "good" by many definitions, that's also all there is. Depending on your employer, it might be VERY hard to change your work and pay, in either direction. If you're a solo or two-doc practice in the woods 3 hours from a real airport, and you want to go part-time, that's potentially a very difficult prospect, even in a saturated market. You're going to need to find another RadOnc willing to work part-time in the woods 3 hours from a real airport, which might be a tough sell for several years (if ever possible). If you decide you "want more"...how? Other specialties can expand their hours, work more shifts, schedule more procedures from their long wait lists...it's generally hard for us to do that. Even then, your RVU production bonus might cap at a certain point for diminishing returns. Then, there's always the lingering issue of geography. Even if you're happy with 20 on beam $450k...what if you (or your spouse, or your family) wants/needs to move somewhere else? What if you're working in Nebraska and your spouse gets a job in Miami? How's that going to go?

To get into medical school, graduate, and finish residency takes a certain type of personality. Those personalities are, on average, ambitious, and have expectations for their future. Even if the system has elasticity to keep new grad unemployment low, that "employment" is potentially a very vanilla prospect, with a tight ceiling and floor on salary, limited room for growth (or intentional shrinkage), significant dependence on a referral chain, and extremely limited geography.

There will always be medical students willing to take such a job. But that type of medical student personality is unlikely to be the same type of personality which creates an AOA MD-PhD kid with a 260+ Step 1 score who can walk into residency and carry a Boomer Attending's service from Day 1.

So, everyone just needs to recalibrate their expectations in BOTH directions, and perhaps something will be invented in 2030 that recaptures the bottled lighting that IMRT was in 2000.

 

[OTN]

And so? Spots are filled. Don’t what to tell ya. The problem is - there is no mechanism that doesn’t rely on people speaking openly / honestly to help change things. Potters goes out there with a complete clown comment, bro and it’s me and Ridge and then utter silence. How can change happen?

A big part (most really) of my unwillingness to enter the playing field is the fact that I genuinely do not want to be a part of Twitter.

 

[Lamount]

median physician salary is $206kSo if a medstudent is happy earning a below than average physician salary in a location far from family and friends, then by all means, radonc calls. There is also the Worst case existential scenario where they end up unemployed, a risk which does not exist in the rest of medicine. Lots of interesting specialties to choose from.

In the original limb xrt sparing sarcoma trials, I thought there was no qol difference between amputees and limb preservation arm. Amputees were just so happy to be cancer free.

To be fair, the median physician salary is $206k

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

To be fair, the median physician salary is $206k

Ok I won't get too far down the rabbit hole here but you're linking the US News "median physician salary". So immediately we should ask "where does this number come from? It's not quickly apparent, but evidently it's from the Bureau of Labor Stats.

So now let's go to the BLS and look at their salary data.

Well clearly there's a wide range based on specialty:

Let's drill down here:

What could the [5] hyperlink bring us to, as it indicates the median income and higher?

So if a job hits at least $100 per hour, BLS throws their hands in the air? Ergo, for high paying jobs the median is around $208k?

I don't want to dig deeper, so if someone else feels like it, let us know. I don't know if US News is my go-to for doctor salary references though.

 

[madchemist89]

One of the things many residents and medical students do not grasp is being so heavily dependent on referrals. Getting referrals is a whole other job in and of itself. Keeping referring docs happy isn't easy. Some of them can turn on you if they don't like what you do for just one patient. Its scary how little control you have of your own practice. Its not something I had anticipated before graduating.

 

[deleted1111261]

Ok I won't get too far down the rabbit hole here but you're linking the US News "median physician salary". So immediately we should ask "where does this number come from? It's not quickly apparent, but evidently it's from the Bureau of Labor Stats.

So now let's go to the BLS and look at their salary data.

Well clearly there's a wide range based on specialty:

View attachment 347057

Let's drill down here:

View attachment 347058

What could the [5] hyperlink bring us to, as it indicates the median income and higher?

View attachment 347059

So if a job hits at least $100 per hour, BLS throws their hands in the air? Ergo, for high paying jobs the median is around $208k?

I don't want to dig deeper, so if someone else feels like it, let us know. I don't know if US News is my go-to for doctor salary references though.

$206k is NOT median physician salary.
Pediatricians are probably one of the lowest paid specialties and they earn more than that, in general… that’s just bad math.

 

[Chartreuse Wombat]

To be fair, the median physician salary is $206k

Fake news. No way median salary in 206k. Methodology..

 

[RO28]

Ok so + 1 for $450 base and (what I’m now realizing) basically zilch upward mobility. If anything downward mobility 😒.

I go back and forth about talking about it openly on Twitter. Maybe I will eventually?I care less about the rad Onc world response and more about doing something I may regret with my current employment. Also it’s a PITA to navigate this stuff and I’m lazy.

hose personalities are, on average, ambitious, and have expectations for their future. Even if the system has elasticity to keep new grad unemployment low, that "employment" is potentially a very vanilla prospect, with a tight ceiling and floor on salary, limited room for growth (or intentional shrinkage), significant dependence on a referral chain, and extremely limited geography.

This statement is so spot on. It’s hard to see yourself as someone who used to describe yourself as ambitious but then the vanilla has sucked you dry for a couple of years and you’re not really sure what to do about it or what kind of pivot to make. It’s a really challenging situation.

 

[Chartreuse Wombat]

10 highest-paid physician specialties

Neurosurgery boasts the highest compensation of any physician specialty, according to Doximity's

www.beckersasc.com

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

10 highest-paid physician specialties

Neurosurgery boasts the highest compensation of any physician specialty, according to Doximity's

www.beckersasc.com

These numbers are closer, but if you drill down here too, they're from Doximity, and they're averages, which is very important.

If you take an average of my salary as an associate in a private practice and the salary of one of the partners in the same practice, you certainly get A number, which is definitely AN average...but that average doesn't reflect reality for either of us.

There are definitely some "whales" in the RadOnc salary surveys which, since we're so small, really can skew things. The closest to reality I can find is the median salary data for new grads. Anything else I've seen should come with a huge margin of error.

 

[TheWallnerus]

There are definitely some "whales" in the RadOnc salary surveys

Most rad onc salary surveys I've ever seen are less than 100 respondents. I remember one year the MGMA data was based on less than 40 rad oncs.

 

[Lamount]

Fake news. No way median salary in 206k. Methodology..

I am not an economist thus I wouldn't know how to evaluate their methodology. I will, however, point out that this is what a number of surveys report, including government sources

Do you have a trusted source that points to a median physician salary that is vastly different?

 

[Bequerel]

I am not an economist thus I wouldn't know how to evaluate their methodology. I will, however, point out that this is what a number of surveys report, including government sources

Do you have a trusted source that points to a median physician salary that is vastly different?

Are you really trying to double down on 206k being average physician salary? Move on

 

[Lamount]

Are you really trying to double down on 206k being average physician salary? Move on

Not doubling down per se... I would be comfortable moving on if someone had some stats to dispute it rather than simply dismissing it out of hand.

 

[RickyScott]

Are you really trying to double down on 206k being average physician salary? Move on

In many locations with radonc availability (satellite in kentucky, or iowa), we would be the lowest paid specialist.

 

[jondunn]

In many locations with radonc availability (satellite in kentucky, or iowa), we would be the lowest paid specialist.

this is nonsense

along with your post about medical students being utter tools.

dude.

 

[communitydoc13]

So, everyone just needs to recalibrate their expectations in BOTH directions, and perhaps something will be invented in 2030 that recaptures the bottled lighting that IMRT was in 2000.

No academic is going to be concerned about grads who don't go into academics making ~400K with limited geographic options. The money remains good in radonc at present relative to many fields (I make much more than my PCP spouse, who works hard), although not what it once was. Academics typically view themselves as choosing to make less money by going into academics and don't perceive (although they are) that they are hurt by diminishing PP opportunities.

I believe many academics clearly resented the very wealthy PP folks from a generation ago and admittedly, the money that I have heard was generated by physician owned machine groups remains baffling to me. This is honestly a completely different social class. Many employed docs would look at that money and be like "work for 5 years and then do something interesting". It was a peculiar combination of entrepreneurship and being a doctor that most physicians are not sympathetic to.

We shouldn't demean the students.

Students should know that if they become radiation oncologists, their family will likely have to move to where they get a job, and they are not well positioned to follow their spouse if spouses' career dictates location.

They should know that it is unlikely that they will be at the forefront of cancer care going forward.

If they are serious about oncologic research, unless they have so much early career esteem that they can all their own shots or are true physics folks, they should strongly consider medical oncology.

These real truths should be enough that our applicant pool is slightly below average regarding competitiveness. I believe this is where it should be.

The hypercompetitive era was just sad and was in fact what needed correction.

I don't know what an academic breast radiation oncologist does with their time.