2021 ARRO Graduating Resident Jobs Survey

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I am not an economist thus I wouldn't know how to evaluate their methodology. I will, however, point out that this is what a number of surveys report, including government sources

Do you have a trusted source that points to a median physician salary that is vastly different?

Academic physicians; 99% response rate (Instructors >200K)


Only 20000 respondents but the numbers are well above 208

Of course all of these surveys have problems but it strikes that 208 is just not an accurate average salary for a US physicians; much too low.

Looking closer at the government website "This wage is equal to or greater than $208,000 per year or $100.00 per hour."

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A big part (most really) of my unwillingness to enter the playing field is the fact that I genuinely do not want to be a part of Twitter.
And I appreciate that. It’s such a bunch of navel gazing, anyway.
 
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Academic physicians; 99% response rate (Instructors >200K)


Only 20000 respondents but the numbers are well above 208

Of course all of these surveys have problems but it strikes that 208 is just not an accurate average salary for a US physicians; much too low.

Looking closer at the government website "This wage is equal to or greater than $208,000 per year or $100.00 per hour."
Anyone that has met another physician knows that it’s just not even possible that the average annual salary could be $206k. That means half are below and half are above. Who in their right mind thinks that is even possible? The median salary for a pediatrician, the lowest paid specialty (travesty, by the way), earns more than that on average. So, if the lowest paid is more than the median, how can the overall median be $206k? Why are we having this discussion? Bring back KHE88!
 
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No academic is going to be concerned about grads who don't go into academics making ~400K with limited geographic options. The money remains good in radonc at present relative to many fields (I make much more than my PCP spouse, who works hard), although not what it once was. Academics typically view themselves as choosing to make less money by going into academics and don't perceive (although they are) that they are hurt by diminishing PP opportunities.
These are great points. In my experience, a lot of academic RadOncs are apathetic/indifferent to what private practice docs are doing, other than to imply (or state outright) to medical students and residents that they don't practice good medicine and only care about money.

But private practice opportunities are a good barometer of macro issues in the field, a...canary in the coalmine, as it were.

Everyone has different priorities. While, on balance, it's still probably easier for a RadOnc to have a higher base salary than a PCP, that salary comes at a price (pun intended). By "PCP", I'm implying a catch-all term for an IM Generalist, Family Med, or Pediatrics (I know the term can be broader though).

RadOnc requires an anachronistic/disconnected intern year which requires additional applications, interviews, and moving costs. As was illustrated last year, it's possible to Match in RadOnc but be orphaned for intern year, which could be very problematic. The PCP fields are "all-in-one", no extra applications, interviews, or moving. If we, as a field, are truly dedicated to increasing the presence of underrepresented populations, and are aware that those populations often have more challenging financial situations, eliminating the disconnected intern year should be a high priority. I know how much money that year cost me. It took me until I was an attending to pay off those credit cards.

RadOnc is 5 years of training in total; the common PCP fields are usually 3. That's two additional years of opportunity costs for attending wages. Similar point as above: the populations we claim to want more of are more likely to be saddled with high levels of student loan debt. An additional two years in residency is an additional two years of forbearance/minimum payments and interest accumulation.

RadOnc has the most arduous board exam/certification process of all specialties (at least as far as I can tell). We have three written exams (two in basic science), and a (bias-prone) oral exam which can only be taken starting after your first year as an attending. PCP fields have a single written exam completed before, or concurrent with, the end of residency.

PCP fields are the polar opposite in terms of career preferences/options. While I'm sure there are some ultra-prime locations and jobs which are hard to get, in general: you can't be "locked out" of an entire city or region like you can with RadOnc. If you want to try to make more money, you can have longer hours or work more days. You can learn and offer additional procedures and services. You can go the opposite direction and work fewer hours or less days.

I'm a first generation college student and had zero connections to medicine when I started. I could find the numbers on the internet that have been posted here. When I did that, 20 years ago, the numbers paint a picture like "oh man you make so little in Family Med compared to RadOnc or Ortho". On average, perhaps there's truth in that statement, then and now. Then I became a part of the system. I made a lot of friends. I personally know Family Med docs making "RadOnc" money (to clarify: in an above-board, not shady manner).

They don't tell you this in med school. Why? Because the academicians who hold all power over students and trainees are apathetic/indifferent to what private practice docs are doing.

So, sure. If a high likelihood of "locking in" a $350k-$500k salary while simultaneously "locking in" everything else (location, hours, workload) is something that's appealing to someone, I imagine there will always be jobs of that nature out there.

Heaven help you if you want to ever move before you retire or die, though.
 
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In many locations with radonc availability (satellite in kentucky, or iowa), we would be the lowest paid specialist.
We are probably at least one of the lowest paid locums nowadays.
I don't know what an academic breast radiation oncologist does with their time.
Improving locoregional control in 8 out of the 400 patients they see a year. C'mon man. Wait... I do it too.

I personally know Family Med docs making "RadOnc" money (to clarify: in an above-board, not shady manner).
I have a good family med friend who got a $60K bonus check last week from one of his main insurance companies for his patients for doing some clinical quality thing right all this year.
 
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I have a good family med friend who got a $60K bonus check last week from one of his main insurance companies for his patients for doing some clinical quality thing right all this year.
Lol. You mean 60K they withheld from your friend at the outset that they had to win back based on a crazy performance system at the end of the year provided that they or their midlevel checked enough quality boxes. And you never get all the points.
 
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He's not wrong if we are talking procedural specialists. I know for a fact and med onc and surgical specialists command far higher per diem rates for locums

'he's not wrong if we're talking about a totally different thing than the thing he said'
 
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He was responding to locum rates in that message. I just looked it up. And it was bolder. And he is right. For oncologic specialties, we are typically the lowest pairs.
I just received a solicitation for locums in AZ yesterday. January-July $1500/day
$1500/day for coverage is one thing. $1500/day for independently managing a practice for 6 months is different (and definitely possible they will make you do all the work in less than 5 days a week).

For context, I have seen ads for travelling nurses at $5000/week. This is a supply/demand fluke right now. But. That's up to $260k/year for someone with a 2 year degree. Think about that.
 
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In many locations with radonc availability (satellite in kentucky, or iowa), we would be the lowest paid specialist.

this is what he said. he definitely wasn't talking about locums, even if it turns out the 206k came from locums data. satellites in kentucky don't post locums jobs.

come on simul. it was ridiculous exaggeration.
 
I just received a solicitation for locums in AZ yesterday. January-July $1500/day
$1500/day for coverage is one thing. $1500/day for independently managing a practice for 6 months is different (and definitely possible they will make you do all the work in less than 5 days a week).

For context, I have seen ads for travelling nurses at $5000/week. This is a supply/demand fluke right now. But. That's up to $260k/year for someone with a 2 year degree. Think about that.
I think equivalent to median junior faculty starting salary when you factor in no PTO, health insurance. Would be okay for someone just out of residency looking for A job.
 

Academic physicians; 99% response rate (Instructors >200K)


Only 20000 respondents but the numbers are well above 208

Of course all of these surveys have problems but it strikes that 208 is just not an accurate average salary for a US physicians; much too low.

Looking closer at the government website "This wage is equal to or greater than $208,000 per year or $100.00 per hour."
It looks like the average salary is a bit higher (>300k in many sources). This is median so would be less influenced by the outliers, who are likely earning quite a bit more than average. It does strike me as low, but I also heard a lot of anecdotes about the low salaries in primary care practices. Who knows? If someone has a reliable source for this info (@TheWallnerus, looking at you), I would be interested to see what it really is. If this median salary IS, indeed, accurate or close-to-accurate (and I can't be certain that it is), it certainly puts our compensation into perspective.

...as I duck under the table in anticipation of angry responses from numerous posters :nailbiting:
 
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I think equivalent to median junior faculty starting salary when you factor in no PTO, health insurance. Would be okay for someone just out of residency looking for A job.
I would not consider a 6 month locums job "okay" for someone out of residency. There is enormous opportunity cost moving somewhere for a few months and having long gaps between jobs. I have known older rad oncs who basically spent their entire careers doing 6 month jobs like that in rural areas. Lets just say that it was lucrative enough back then that those opportunity costs of having no benefits, unpaid gaps in employment, and the hassle of moving all the time and living in short-term rentals was actually worth it. The money they told me they made was unbelievable.

But now, if this is the only job a new grad could get, it would be a disaster and seriously blow someone's career plans up. The hit your CV would take would snowball.
 
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I just received a solicitation for locums in AZ yesterday. January-July $1500/day
$1500/day for coverage is one thing. $1500/day for independently managing a practice for 6 months is different (and definitely possible they will make you do all the work in less than 5 days a week).

For context, I have seen ads for travelling nurses at $5000/week. This is a supply/demand fluke right now. But. That's up to $260k/year for someone with a 2 year degree. Think about that.
I have had numerous locums offers for under 1500 a day. In my location, a locums physicist is paid more than a radonc.
 
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Not angry.

It’s illogical to think half of all US MDs make <$100/hr. Even cursory survey would make anyone dismiss that as out of hand.
It seems low, but I haven't seen anything else that demonstrates otherwise. Have you?
 
If someone has a reliable source for this info (@TheWallnerus, looking at you),
Only data I have is from all the locums emails I get; they are restricted to certain rad-adjacent and onc-adjacent specialties obv. Last time I looked was mid-2020. Rad onc is significantly the lowest (based on this questionable stat analysis):

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I think these numbers are pretty typical. I'm pretty sure something very strange with USNews (the 206k number) methodology. Could they perhaps have included resident and fellowship physicians? Part-timers? Definitely not concordant with self reported full time docs.

VA will pay a PCP in the 200K range with excellent benefits early on. It is difficult for them to recruit.
 
I believe many academics clearly resented the very wealthy PP folks from a generation ago and admittedly, the money that I have heard was generated by physician owned machine groups remains baffling to me. This is honestly a completely different social class. Many employed docs would look at that money and be like "work for 5 years and then do something interesting". It was a peculiar combination of entrepreneurship and being a doctor that most physicians are not sympathetic to.

We shouldn't demean the students.

Students should know that if they become radiation oncologists, their family will likely have to move to where they get a job, and they are not well positioned to follow their spouse if spouses' career dictates location.

I think this is an incredibly relevant point. It ought to also be reinforced that the "spirit of entrepreneurship" is very rare to find in grads of the current generations. There are many (good) reasons for this and the reality is that most RO grads can still enjoy a very comfortable living though decreasingly likely to be in an area of the country where they want to live.
 
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I just received a solicitation for locums in AZ yesterday. January-July $1500/day
$1500/day for coverage is one thing. $1500/day for independently managing a practice for 6 months is different (and definitely possible they will make you do all the work in less than 5 days a week).

For context, I have seen ads for travelling nurses at $5000/week. This is a supply/demand fluke right now. But. That's up to $260k/year for someone with a 2 year degree. Think about that.
Scratch that. Update. $13k/week for travelling nurses.


Can rad onc moonlight as an icu nurse? Hah.
 
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I think these numbers are pretty typical. I'm pretty sure something very strange with USNews (the 206k number) methodology. Could they perhaps have included resident and fellowship physicians? Part-timers? Definitely not concordant with self reported full time docs.

VA will pay a PCP in the 200K range with excellent benefits early on. It is difficult for them to recruit.

I agree that the 206k from US new and 208k from US gov seem low... but then again, medscape is average, not median. I am assuming that median will be lower than average given that there are almost certainly more outliers in the high price range. The question is, how much lower do we expect the median to be.

Despite the fact that our speciality is certainly not in it's golden years, I suspect that we still crush the national median of physicians.
 
Not angry.

It’s illogical to think half of all US MDs make <$100/hr. Even cursory survey would make anyone dismiss that as out of hand.

It would be like relying on indeed job postings. I saw one for neurosurg making 150K for FT estimated per indeed. Their salary data is garbage.
 
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Folks... pretty much all MD salary data is garbage. What is the average salary for someone who works on Wall Street. What is the average salary of someone who owns a Chick-fil-A.
 
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Yes. I don’t know any physicians that work full time that make 200k. The study you cited says that is the floor - everything above $100/hr is lumped together
FWIW, I just looked up my GP's salary, which is public because he works at a state university. He is making ~160k (between academic and clinical contributions). I am sure you could find similar results with family docs at state universities. Granted, this is not including benefits, 401k etc... but it still puts my own salary into perspective.
 
FWIW, I just looked up my GP's salary, which is public because he works at a state university. He is making ~160k (between academic and clinical contributions). I am sure you could find similar results with family docs at state universities. Granted, this is not including benefits, 401k etc... but it still puts my own salary into perspective.
Any time I see data (a website with someone’s salary) like this I think… what am I missing. I guess people go into medicine now with all its hurdles and hassles to make less than what they could more easily and quickly make in other fields. Wild stuff.
 
FWIW, I just looked up my GP's salary, which is public because he works at a state university. He is making ~160k (between academic and clinical contributions). I am sure you could find similar results with family docs at state universities. Granted, this is not including benefits, 401k etc... but it still puts my own salary into perspective.
This may represent his true compensation. I don't know. But I will warn you of taking these publically mandated numbers seriously.

Academic neurosurgeons will often appear on these lists with compensations on the order of 250K. In reality, they are bringing in 3x this amount (often much more). There are multiple ways in which transparency mandates only reveal a portion of true compensation. (for instance, physician may be employed by both university and physician working group).
 
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Perhaps average physician SALARY is $208k. But have you met his friend, Mr. BONUS? He's the really, really big guy standing next to SALARY.

If you actually believe that the average American physician grosses out 200k, I'd wonder if you are actually a physician.
 
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Perhaps average physician SALARY is $208k. But have you met his friend, Mr. BONUS? He's the really, really big guy standing next to SALARY.

If you actually believe that the average American physician grosses out 200k, I'd wonder if you are actually a physician.

The physicians at my wife's primary care office (IM/FM) max out at 180k, gross. The pediatricians make less. These are not unusual numbers for these specialties in my state. Also, these are very common specialties nationally.

I think rad oncs have a distorted view of compensation for non-specialists.
 
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Neuronix, I think you live it the Bermuda Triangle of physician salary though. where incomes disappears.

FWIW, I know lot's of IM, FM, Primary Peds.
 
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This may represent his true compensation. I don't know. But I will warn you of taking these publically mandated numbers seriously.

Academic neurosurgeons will often appear on these lists with compensations on the order of 250K. In reality, they are bringing in 3x this amount (often much more). There are multiple ways in which transparency mandates only reveal a portion of true compensation. (for instance, physician may be employed by both university and physician working group).

true of rad oncs too.

or really anyone who has a publicly listed salary
 
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The physicians at my wife's primary care office (IM/FM) max out at 180k, gross. The pediatricians make less. These are not unusual numbers for these specialties in my state. Also, these are very common specialties nationally.

I think rad oncs have a distorted view of compensation for non-specialists.
I used to work in a very large group of diverse specialties and MDs and knew exactly to dollar what non specialists made. I wish I still had the spreadsheets lol. These numbers are pretty low. Busy IMs “maxing out” at 180 is really low!
 
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To be fair, my wife states that in private practices in the next county they make in the low to mid-200s depending on how busy they are.

She has interviewed at these places but doesn't want the commute. Or if we moved up there I don't want the commute.

In academics mid-high 100s are common for outpatient practices in FM/IM as Lamount mentioned. In my area the urban academic primary care jobs are almost impossible to get because they are stable, have good benefits, and don't push the docs to produce a ton. I will back up Lamount here--there is no hidden source of extra income unless the general practitioner is hustling side gigs.
 
I used to work in a very large group of diverse specialties and MDs and knew exactly to dollar what non specialists made. I wish I still had the spreadsheets lol. These numbers are pretty low. Busy IMs “maxing out” at 180 is really low!

Depends on what you mean by “maxing out”
 
This debate is not going to look good for us:lol:.

Truth is many docs (mostly PCPs of some sort) willing to make very little money (sometimes marginally different than well paid nurses) to live in good locations or do academics.

I'm sure some of those hard-core medoncs doing mostly lab work are pulling down low numbers. They're doing it for the love and mad props.

Now academic radoncs have largely closed the gap on community practice radonc. Both are typically well paid but there are some very low offers out there for good locations.

The hard truth is the money was a driving factor for nearly all of us that went into this field. This is not so much the truth with many other docs.

As an ID friend of mine (a subspecialty where you can make less than a PCP!) who travels to Haiti and does heroic medical work said to me, "you have a machine that prints money".

We should know who we are.

edit: I should add, some of these docs just don't care that much about money and are even motivated by some moral imperative.
 
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Perhaps average physician SALARY is $208k. But have you met his friend, Mr. BONUS? He's the really, really big guy standing next to SALARY.

If you actually believe that the average American physician grosses out 200k, I'd wonder if you are actually a physician.

I don't know what the average salary is across all specialties, but for primary care (outpatient IM, family med, peds) in a coastal, major urban area, $200K is probably about the highest that you're going to go without doing something extra - seeing a ton of patients, working six days a week or extended evening hours, nursing home rounds, doing both outpatient AND inpatient, etc. In a place like NYC or Boston, $200K is probably being a bit generous.

Midwestern major urban areas are probably a touch higher, but not by a huge amount. Midwestern mid-sized urban areas are higher, and rural areas (midwest, mountain states, southeast) are the highest of all, obviously.

Peds will be even less.

None of this should be a surprise, though. I feel like these numbers and trends are common knowledge on SDN by now.

Any time I see data (a website with someone’s salary) like this I think… what am I missing. I guess people go into medicine now with all its hurdles and hassles to make less than what they could more easily and quickly make in other fields. Wild stuff.

I feel like this incredibly naive or disingenous. Can you really not wrap your mind around why someone would go into medicine (yes, even with its hurdles and hassles) to make less than they could in other fields?

This is like the old trope of a roomful of old white guys debating why women would want to vote.

As someone who has been in primary care for over a decade, here are my reasons:

- I don't have the attention span to be a specialist. Call it attention span, mentality, mindset, whatever - I don't have it.

As residents, we would have to spend a month in the outpatient office of various specialties. There were 3 phases for me:
1) "Ohhh, this specialty is awesome! I should have done THIS instead!")
2) "Well, the shine has worn off, but it's still pretty cool."
3) "OMG, if we talk about BPH/gastritis/CHF/COPD/cataracts/bread-and-butter issue for that specialty one more time, I'm going to rip my f***ing ears off."

There were also some specialties where phase 1 never happened (Emergency medicine and outpatient ENT, I'm looking at you. Nothing against the specialties, just not for me.)

- Flexibility. As a rad onc, you're tied to either a large hospital that can afford the expensive machinery that you guys need, or a major corporation (21st Century, Cancer Treatment Centers of America) that can. As a BC family med physician, I can do so many things if I wanted to, and can work in literally almost any location in the world. I can do urgent care, hospitalist, community clinics, locums, part time, full time, off hours, and now telemedicine. If I have to pick up and move to Alabama tomorrow, I'll be able to find a job. If we had to move to Manhattan, I could find a job.

- I genuinely believe that healthcare should be for everyone - young, old, rich, poor, undocumented or not. I really don't care. But this healthcare system is hard to navigate for the average lay person and many specialists do not always take the time to explain things. I get a lot of satisfaction out of making complicated things clear and understandable.

- I genuinely believe that prevention the optimal strategy. Some of the cancers that you treat are unavoidable, but don't you guys ever feel a pang of sadness when you treat a patient with a cancer that could have been avoided? Like advanced cervical or colon cancer? Or HPV-mediated anal/rectal cancers? I know it sounds like the usual lip service that you write about on your personal statement to get into medical school, but preventing bad diseases honestly matters to me.

I don't need a lot of money. I don't have expensive tastes in cars, or jewelry, or vacations. Even "only" $200K is plenty.
 
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Wow.

Okay. I stand corrected. Thank you for that answer. It is eye opening. I had no idea. @Lamount - my bad. I’m in a silo, for sure.
 
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Could also include part time physicians.

PS talking about salary might not be the best thing to do in an open forum.
 
yes compared to many primary care positions and academics the pp world is certainly well compensated. Compared to "back then" however, student debt certainly makes up a much bigger proportion of monthly expenses. The other factor to consider with compensation is the housing market....it can be really hard in the metro areas (I'm looking at you Boston, NYC, West Coast) to afford a home on the primary care/academic pay scale, depending on what your partner does. I mean this certainly brings up a much bigger discussion, but it can be a hard pill to swallow when after medical school/residency some of these financial goals are really challenging to meet.
 
Do offers to new grads like this still happen. Randomly came across this email from January, 2013. The 500K floor was a real thing... at least I remember things that way...

I am looking for old spreadsheets from a group of like 20 IM physicians from 2005-08 or so. I swear I don't remember a single one under 250K. And remember a couple pushing 500K. But maybe I have dementia.

OnM3Rrz.png
 
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But maybe I have dementia.
I'm sure you don't. But there is a critical part of that offer

The non-urban south (Not FL, but GA, SC, AL) has always paid well for nearly all specialties per my understanding. When I was an intern, intensivist fellow said he could make double in south than in mid-atlantic. Just one region down.

I didn't do a national job search, so I can't speak to radonc offers from that time period.
 
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To be fair, my wife states that in private practices in the next county they make in the low to mid-200s depending on how busy they are.

She has interviewed at these places but doesn't want the commute. Or if we moved up there I don't want the commute.

In academics mid-high 100s are common for outpatient practices in FM/IM as Lamount mentioned. In my area the urban academic primary care jobs are almost impossible to get because they are stable, have good benefits, and don't push the docs to produce a ton. I will back up Lamount here--there is no hidden source of extra income unless the general practitioner is hustling side gigs.
Hospitalists near me start at $265k.... All about supply and Demand....
 
Re the claim: 206k is the average doctor salary.

About 1/3 of docs are primary care physicians (gen IM, primary peds, FM). Even if we assume the “average” primary doc makes 180k, then…the average specialist (including rad onc, neurosurgery, ortho, uro, interventional cards, radiology, anesthesia, etc… etc…) must make 219k per year to arrive at the above number.

I don’t have to tell anybody that it’s obviously (prima facie) nonsense, but people will believe what they want.

Everyone knows A doc who makes less than 200k. Ask yourself, do half the docs you know make less than 200k? Of course not. The number is completely bogus.
 
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Do offers to new grads like this still happen. Randomly came across this email from January, 2013. The 500K floor was a real thing... at least I remember things that way...

I am looking for old spreadsheets from a group of like 20 IM physicians from 2005-08 or so. I swear I don't remember a single one under 250K. And remember a couple pushing 500K. But maybe I have dementia.

OnM3Rrz.png


These def happen still, though I’m not sure about the signing bonus
 
The physician salary stat needs to be for full time BC docs. Otherwise your including people who want to and are working 3 days a week, people who can’t pass boards for whatever reason or people just doing locums or whatever. If the standard is just anyone with a MD behind their name it’s a pretty useless stat.
 
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The physician salary stat needs to be for full time BC docs. Otherwise your including people who want to and are working 3 days a week, people who can’t pass boards for whatever reason or people just doing locums or whatever. If the standard is just anyone with a MD behind their name it’s a pretty useless stat.
To be fair, I am only in clinic three days a week
 
When I was an intern the IM chief on my service (major west coast town) was offered $120,000/year at NYU. These jobs exist. I think people that take are definitely somewhat immature, at least finically speaking. Why let a system exploit you and by extension your family like that? Making less then you are worth and what you bring in doesn’t mean you’re are a better doctor.
 
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I am a resident at a big name program . I frequently see "instructors" in the department of medicine, department of surgery, well...hell. even our rad onc department. these are typically folks straight out of training. I am always curious how the instructor positions pay. i should ask around.

I think our instructor was paid like a PGY-6 or maybe like a bit more ~100k. Fortunately they found a better job and are leaving for greener pastures.
 
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I am a resident at a big name program . I frequently see "instructors" in the department of medicine, department of surgery, well...hell. even our rad onc department. these are typically folks straight out of training. I am always curious how the instructor positions pay. i should ask around.

I think our instructor was paid like a PGY-6 or maybe like a bit more ~100k. Fortunately they found a better job and are leaving for greener pastures.
If literally translating “doctor” from Latin, calling a doctor “instructor” is very redundant.

Discuss.
 
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