2024 USNWR Medical School Rankings

[tompremed]

---

Members don't see this ad.

If you believe there's any possibility that removing standardized testing requirements or making them pass/fail could negatively impact American science and medicine in the long term, you have an extremely poor understanding of what those exams test. How about this. Go take every person who got 520+ on the MCAT but no med school and put them in the clinic. See how they do.

I need you to read up on IQ history. Yes in the US, Asians score on average better than white people. That's not the case in other parts of the world. In the UK, Africans score the highest. IQ score is a reflection of access, opportunity, and successful assimilation to Western culture. In order for it to have any value, all cultures around the world must have the exact same values wrt "intellect", and must all have the same frame of reference regarding what's being asked. In a society where buildings are round, you're more likely to observe perceived deficits is understanding 3D shapes. Doesn't make them less intelligent. Tl;dr IQ is useless. And given it's eugenics origins (which you should educate yourself on), it should not be used.

Ha - "In the UK, Africans score the highest" so much for your argument that IQ test is racist! From what I saw on the newer IQ tests, most are pattern recognition based and nothing to do with Western culture. And if you want to trace everything to its origins - remember don't use the Autobahn when you are in Germany, as it was promoted by Hitler. And we should throw out US constitution as it only allowed 3/5 votes for slaves.

And what's your suggestion for measuring an applicant's potential as a medical researcher (not just a doctor) to replace MCAT and GPA?

 

[ItAintEasyBeingCheesy]

The MSAR is really cheap compared to literally every other part of the process, but fyi it's free for students who receive FAP. So not perfect, but there is free access to MSAR for people from lower income families. And for other students, it's like $28 for one year, $36 for 2 years lol.

Again, more information parents and premeds don’t have access to. Why don’t you go market and publicize this knowledge to premeds nationwide. Or find someone to do it. Because until then, the reality of the situation is that USNews rankings is the best option for the masses as a whole. Can’t use MSAR if no one knows about it.

 

[tompremed]

It does, because my point (which I didn't state but assumed would be understood) is that the MCAT does not test how good of a physician you'll be or if you're prepares to practice medicine. It tests how well you can take the exam, which has a mild correlation to how well you do in the pre-clinical phase of medical school (correlation basically dissapears around 504/505) and how well you'll do on board exams (also stops correlating at a relatively low score).

You assumed I was making a statement about performance based on different MCAT scores (and I can see why you'd think that), but I was focused on the fact that the MCAT does not assess preparedness for medicine. It tests how well you can do on the MCAT...and we could also get into the fact that many high scorers have far more time and resources to prepare than lower scorers. However, while we're on the topic, I'm highly confident that there is no meaningful difference in physicians who scored closer to 500 vs 520. Anecdotally, every DO I've seen is every bit as good as their MD colleagues, and DO MCAT averages are much lower than MD MCAT averages.

Remember we are discussing research ranking, not primary care ranking. I am asserting that MCAT/GPA provided one measure, but not perfect and not all, of an applicant's preparedness to be a medical research. Also everything has a distribution/spread. I am sure most DO graduates make good doctors and some may make great contributions to medical discoveries. But on balance more discoveries are made by people who had higher MCAT/GPAs.

 

[deleted1115000]

It does, because my point (which I didn't state but assumed would be understood) is that the MCAT does not test how good of a physician you'll be or if you're prepares to practice medicine. It tests how well you can take the exam, which has a mild correlation to how well you do in the pre-clinical phase of medical school (correlation basically dissapears around 504/505) and how well you'll do on board exams (also stops correlating at a relatively low score).

You assumed I was making a statement about performance based on different MCAT scores (and I can see why you'd think that), but I was focused on the fact that the MCAT does not assess preparedness for medicine. It tests how well you can do on the MCAT...and we could also get into the fact that many high scorers have far more time and resources to prepare than lower scorers. However, while we're on the topic, I'm highly confident that there is no meaningful difference in physicians who scored closer to 500 vs 520. Anecdotally, every DO I've seen is every bit as good as their MD colleagues, and DO MCAT averages are much lower than MD MCAT averages.

Your own words just stated that you were trying to prove "the MCAT does not test how good of a physician you'll be" and your example was that a board certified physician with a lower score (say 505) would outperform a premed with a 520 in clinic. That example is worthless because you're not controlling for medical training, obviously the person who completed medical school and residency will fair better regardless of their aptitude. If you wanted to definitely prove the quoted claim you'd have to compare different level scorers who received the SAME medical training. 520+ who went to X school and X residency, 510-520 who went to X school and X residency, etc. This study will never occur because it's not possible to obtain reliable data on physician outcomes and it wouldn't change anything about physician practice anyway. What you say very well could be true (there's 0 difference in physician performance across all scores) but using faulty claims to make your point just weakens your argument.

I would like to see some data for correlation to board scores stopping at "relatively low scores" as I remember it correlating quite well for step 1 all the way up to the 524-528 bracket

slide is at 42 minute mark

 

[deleted1065184]

Ha - "In the UK, Africans score the highest" so much for your argument that IQ test is racist! From what I saw on the newer IQ tests, most are pattern recognition based and nothing to do with Western culture. And if you want to trace everything to its origins - remember don't use the Autobahn when you are in Germany, as it was promoted by Hitler. And we should throw out US constitution as it only allowed 3/5 votes for slaves.

And what's your suggestion for measuring an applicant's potential as a medical researcher (not just a doctor) to replace MCAT and GPA?

It's really clear that you're reading to argue, not to comprehend. The IQ test has eugenecist origins. It was created to intentionally try to prove non-white people are intellectually inferior. It has been used in this way for most of its existence, even with newer iterations. Some people of color have assimilated to Western society such that they are now able to perform well on the test, but people of color without exposure to the West or in a highly marginalized position within the West still do not perform well.

This does not make them less intelligent than white people. And to say it does is literal white supremacy. If you believe that IQ truly measures intellect objectively, and know that in the vast majority of situations white people score better, you're inadvertently saying that white people are intellectually superior. No, I don't believe you're trying to say this. But I need you to understand that's what it functionally means. You could have understood my initial comment better if you had read it for that purpose, but now here we are.

It's an objective fact that IQ exams have very strong Western biases. *Nothing* is objective, and all creations reflect the biases of their creators. So if you truly believe that a test created in the West, by the West, and *specifically* for the purpose of advance eugenics is not heavily culturally and racially biased....you are *SADLY* mistaken.

There's no test that can measure how good of a scientist a person will be. You just have to put them in a lab, give them resources and mentorship, and see how they do. That's why PhD and MD/PhD programs care a lot about exposure to research and ability to think critically during interviews.

 

[deleted1065184]

Again, more information parents and premeds don’t have access to. Why don’t you go market and publicize this knowledge to premeds nationwide. Or find someone to do it. Because until then, the reality of the situation is that USNews rankings is the best option for the masses as a whole. Can’t use MSAR if no one knows about it.

If a student spends any amount of time on SDN, reddit, or has any premed advising, they will learn about MSAR just as easily as they'll learn about USNWR. You're making the assumption that most students know about USNWR med school rankings, but I've actually been quite surprised at how many premeds know nothing about them. USNWR has an outside importance and utility on SDN, which is not surprising.

And it's quite disingenuous for you to think it's a gotcha to ask me to take on the job of widely broadcasting information to students. That's the AAMC's job. But just know that the slightly easier access to USNWR as opposed to MSAR doesn't suddenly make it more useful. It's still useless lol, there's no inherent value in it being more accessible.

I'm not going to go to a holistic healer who's easy to get in touch with when I could just put in a bit more work and find a physician tl see me lol

 

[wondervisions]

Medical school rankings create perverse incentives and allow schools to completely ignore the things that actually matter to students, like lower tuition. Instead of advertising better quality of life or educational opportunities, schools can just brag that they've moved up 2 spots over the previous year! Wow, what a steal.

 

[deleted1065184]

Remember we are discussing research ranking, not primary care ranking. I am asserting that MCAT/GPA provided one measure, but not perfect and not all, of an applicant's preparedness to be a medical research. Also everything has a distribution/spread. I am sure most DO graduates make good doctors and some may make great contributions to medical discoveries. But on balance more discoveries are made by people who had higher MCAT/GPAs.

Yes, and I'd argue that MCAT and GPA are probably even less relevant to research lol.

And I am in absolute awe that you made that last statement. That is absolutely baseless. Where did you come up with such a ridiculous thought?

 

[deleted1065184]

Your own words just stated that you were trying to prove "the MCAT does not test how good of a physician you'll be" and your example was that a board certified physician with a lower score (say 505) would outperform a premed with a 520 in clinic.

I didn't make this comparison. First I said take a premed who performed well on the MCAT and see how they perform in the clinic to demonstrate the the MCAT does not test anything relevant to clinical medicine.

Next, I said that there's no difference between *physicians* who score 500 vs 520. I did not compare a physician with a low score to a premed to a high score. Quit making things up for talking points, please.

That example is worthless because you're not controlling for medical training, obviously the person who completed medical school and residency will fair better regardless of their aptitude. If you wanted to definitely prove the quoted claim you'd have to compare different level scorers who received the SAME medical training. 520+ who went to X school and X residency, 510-520 who went to X school and X residency, etc. This study will never occur because it's not possible to obtain reliable data on physician outcomes and it wouldn't change anything about physician practice anyway. What you say very well could be true (there's 0 difference in physician performance across all scores) but using faulty claims to make your point just weakens your argument.

See above comment, same response. Please read what I write better.

I would like to see some data for correlation to board scores stopping at "relatively low scores" as I remember it correlating quite well for step 1 all the way up to the 524-528 bracket

slide is at 42 minute mark

I'm not going to watch this right now lol, but feel free to summarize the finding and strength if correlation here.

 

[Lawpy]

The vast majority of MD/DO researchers are not making new medical discoveries, they are participating in clinical trials to test out a drug or intervention that somebody else came up with, doing chart review/retrospective stuff, doing reiterations of previous research with different patient populations, etc. Research as it is most commonly done by physicians is not quite as innovative as you seem to think and you do not have to be some sort of genius to do it well.

I don’t know, clinical trials can be just as innovative in both directions (whether confirming hypotheses backed by preclinical studies or rejecting them and forcing a shift in basic science investigations). Not to mention, case reports can be fairly groundbreaking and open new lines of investigation.

 

[Lawpy]

I’m also really confused how the discussion on the validity of USNWR rankings changed to GPA/MCAT as predictors of clinical years and medical research? Feels like we’re talking about several different things in parallel

 

[pierty]

This has derailed. I'm not particularly surprised.

Regardless of what opinions someone holds regarding the utility of rankings as a whole (and the value of student selectivity measures), one thing is clear: the magazine's rank list fails to achieve its stated purpose. The focus should remain on this.

 

[deleted1065184]

I’m also really confused how the discussion on the validity of USNWR rankings changed to GPA/MCAT as predictors of clinical years and medical research? Feels like we’re talking about several different things in parallel

We brought up USNWR metrics (which includes MCAT/GPA), one person said reducing their importance was going in the wrong direction, I disagreed, somebody else disagreed with me, so on and so forth. But I'm also tired of discussing MCAT/GPA so I'm on board with stopping that convo lol

 

[bGMx]

It went from USNWR to MCAT/GPA because there is a correlation to the "Top" institutions with high GPA/MCAT. I think the world of medicine misses out on a lot by focusing on MCAT/GPA just the same as it misses out on a lot by focusing on USNWR. I don't know that the conversation can be had in isolation though.

I'm personally going to try my best to advocate for students who come to medicine for good reasons but don't go to "top tier colleges" just like I advocated for college students who went to community college. Underdogs FTW!

 

[Lawpy]

That's fair, I guess my point is that you don't have to have a 4.0/520 to be able to manage any of what you said here. The people who are coming up with novel drugs and that sort of thing are generally PhD type of people, no? That's what I would actually consider medical innovation, not just doing a clinical trial comparing the new drug to the old one.

Ok i agree. Sorry i’m struggling to follow this thread so i addressed your comment out of context

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

If a student spends any amount of time on SDN, reddit, or has any premed advising, they will learn about MSAR just as easily as they'll learn about USNWR. You're making the assumption that most students know about USNWR med school rankings, but I've actually been quite surprised at how many premeds know nothing about them. USNWR has an outside importance and utility on SDN, which is not surprising.

And it's quite disingenuous for you to think it's a gotcha to ask me to take on the job of widely broadcasting information to students. That's the AAMC's job. But just know that the slightly easier access to USNWR as opposed to MSAR doesn't suddenly make it more useful. It's still useless lol, there's no inherent value in it being more accessible.

I'm not going to go to a holistic healer who's easy to get in touch with when I could just put in a bit more work and find a physician tl see me lol

What about 🐅 or 🚁 parents and their extended family who only know about USNWR? 😀

 

[ItAintEasyBeingCheesy]

If a student spends any amount of time on SDN, reddit, or has any premed advising, they will learn about MSAR just as easily as they'll learn about USNWR. You're making the assumption that most students know about USNWR med school rankings, but I've actually been quite surprised at how many premeds know nothing about them. USNWR has an outside importance and utility on SDN, which is not surprising.

And it's quite disingenuous for you to think it's a gotcha to ask me to take on the job of widely broadcasting information to students. That's the AAMC's job. But just know that the slightly easier access to USNWR as opposed to MSAR doesn't suddenly make it more useful. It's still useless lol, there's no inherent value in it being more accessible.

I'm not going to go to a holistic healer who's easy to get in touch with when I could just put in a bit more work and find a physician tl see me lol

At the moment, USNWR dominates public perception when it comes to med school prestige. If you’d like to see that change, then you should play a role in making it happen. If you think it’s AAMC’s job to advertise MSAR and make it more well known amongst the premed crowd then you should reach out to AAMC requesting that they do so.

Instead of complaining, you should put effort into changing the system to how you believe it should be run. If you don’t have the time or energy, then don’t expect others to, and just accept the fact USNWR is the best, practical option we currently have.

 

[deleted1065184]

At the moment, USNWR dominates public perception when it comes to med school prestige. If you’d like to see that change, then you should play a role in making it happen. If you think it’s AAMC’s job to advertise MSAR and make it more well known amongst the premed crowd then you should reach out to AAMC requesting that they do so.

Instead of complaining, you should put effort into changing the system to how you believe it should be run. If you don’t have the time or energy, then don’t expect others to, and just accept the fact USNWR is the best, practical option we currently have.

I don't think it's their job. It's literally their job. It's their product and they're the company that runs all things concerning getting into medical school. Acting like it's unrealistic to expect a company whose sole purpose is facilitating medical school admissions to widely promote a resource that they've made to do just that is absurd. The USNWR is not the best option (not even a good option), and many thousands of premeds are using MSAR. MSAR is the best option.

And I'm so over the "if you don't like it, you fix it" approach. It's a very lazy way to engage in conversation. You act as if people aren't allowed to have opinions on things they're not actively working tirelessly to change. You're so disingenuous, and you've been discussing this in bad faith the entire time. This conversation is pointless, I'm ending my communication with you here.

 

[Lawpy]

At the moment, USNWR dominates public perception when it comes to med school prestige.

No it doesn’t when schools are dropping out of the rankings and US News is being practically shamed in media reports

 

[pierty]

At the moment, USNWR dominates public perception when it comes to med school prestige. If you’d like to see that change, then you should play a role in making it happen. If you think it’s AAMC’s job to advertise MSAR and make it more well known amongst the premed crowd then you should reach out to AAMC requesting that they do so.

Instead of complaining, you should put effort into changing the system to how you believe it should be run. If you don’t have the time or energy, then don’t expect others to, and just accept the fact USNWR is the best, practical option we currently have.

It is neither "best" nor "practical" by any angle of the definition. Neither is it for a medical student to attempt to influence how a private business lists institutions through publicly available data. This is the business of medical school deans.

Change is happening - slowly, as everything else in medicine's culture does.

 

[deleted1156722]

Sneak preview of this years rankings are out. Looks like US News intends to include withdrawn schools moving forward using past and publicly available information. What are people's thoughts?

If you’d like to see that change, then you should play a role in making it happen. If you think it’s AAMC’s job to advertise MSAR and make it more well known amongst the premed crowd then you should reach out to AAMC…
Instead of complaining, you should put effort into changing the system to how you believe it should be run. If you don’t have the time or energy, then don’t expect others to, and just accept the fact USNWR is the best, practical option we currently have.

I have no dog in this fight, but seriously you started this thread and solicited people’s thoughts… And so people expressed their opinions. So why this now?

 

[Goro]

Remember we are discussing research ranking, not primary care ranking. I am asserting that MCAT/GPA provided one measure, but not perfect and not all, of an applicant's preparedness to be a medical research. Also everything has a distribution/spread. I am sure most DO graduates make good doctors and some may make great contributions to medical discoveries. But on balance more discoveries are made by people who had higher MCAT/GPAs.

And you know this exactly how, other than your own notions???

 

[bGMx]

I suspect Werner Forßmann didn't have a high MCAT when he threaded a catheter up his own vein to his heart and took an xray of it. Thank goodness for Dr. Forßmann's low risk-adverse tendencies as now we have cath labs! Unfortunately, Dr. Forßmann was also a Nazi. It appears we can't predict success.

 

[ItAintEasyBeingCheesy]

I don't think it's their job. It's literally their job. It's their product and they're the company that runs all things concerning getting into medical school. Acting like it's unrealistic to expect a company whose sole purpose is facilitating medical school admissions to widely promote a resource that they've made to do just that is absurd. The USNWR is not the best option (not even a good option), and many thousands of premeds are using MSAR. MSAR is the best option.

And I'm so over the "if you don't like it, you fix it" approach. It's a very lazy way to engage in conversation. You act as if people aren't allowed to have opinions on things they're not actively working tirelessly to change. You're so disingenuous, and you've been discussing this in bad faith the entire time. This conversation is pointless, I'm ending my communication with you here.

Not acting in bad faith here, just stating my opinion. If this is an open forum for discussion where we’re allowed to express our opinions I don’t see why I shouldn’t be able to express my opinion that it’s fruitless to complain over a ranking system that’s currently our best practical option. If it wasn’t the best practical option then someone would swoop in and fix it, but the fact no one has means that it’s quite possibly a much more difficult problem to solve than people in this thread are making it out to be. If USNWR is such a faulty metric and there are much better ones around that are clear and obvious, then someone would’ve done it by now. The fact no one has means this clearly is a much more complicated issue than just “USNews = bad, premeds should do their own research”.

And to reiterate, I’m not assigning any negative qualities onto you like “lazyness” or “ineptitude”. The fact that I suggested you should try fixing this actually means I think very highly of you, in the sense I think you’re a capable and intelligent enough person to be able to tackle such a complicated problem. Any negative traits you’re assuming I’m making of you is your own interpretation of what I’ve been saying, and might be a product of internal conflict from your views being challenged.

 

[Kierkegaard's Bud]

I suspect Werner Forßmann didn't have a high MCAT when he threaded a catheter up his own vein to his heart and took an xray of it. Thank goodness for Dr. Forßmann's low risk-adverse tendencies as now we have cath labs! Unfortunately, Dr. Forßmann was also a Nazi. It appears we can't predict success.

I guess we have CASPer and interviews for Nazi's

 

[ItAintEasyBeingCheesy]

And you know this exactly how, other than your own notions???

Could be a conclusion that he came to logically. Higher MCAT scores on average correlate with greater critical thinking and reasoning skills. Such skills are essential towards performing high quality, investigative research. High quality, investigative research leads to scientific breakthroughs and discoveries. Seems like a sensible line of thinking. When data isn’t available, the next best alternative is deductive reasoning, which is how he probably came to this conclusion.

 

[Kierkegaard's Bud]

Could be a conclusion that he came to logically. Higher MCAT scores on average correlate with greater critical thinking and reasoning skills. Such skills are essential towards performing high quality, investigative research. High quality, investigative research leads to scientific breakthroughs and discoveries. Seems like a sensible line of thinking. When data isn’t available, the next best alternative is deductive reasoning, which is how he probably came to this conclusion.

In God we trust, all others must present data. - Google CEO Eric Schmidt

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

USNWR is not superior, it’s simply easier to obtain and access. All it takes to see the US news rankings is a quick google search of “top med schools”, vs the MSAR, which requires paid subscription access and awareness of its existence which many premeds/parents don’t have. If you’d be willing to negotiate a deal with AAMC to make MSAR a free tool and then willing to do all the search engine optimization necessary and marketing to bump it up to the top of google search results whenever someone queries “best med schools”, then I think MSAR would be a fantastic alternative to the select few premeds willing to do the type of thoughtful research necessary to make use of the information in the tool. Though my suspicion is that the vast majority of premeds aren’t capable of interpreting MSAR to the extent where it’d provide more utility than a general heuristic like USNews rankings- I know I certainly wasn’t when I was deciding between schools.

MSAR is a great tool. Could it be even better and have more data / information ? Of course. Best $28 I ever spent. I mean for the cost of one pizza/beer you get a wealth of data. You have to study it and put some thought into what you're reading but it's helpful. Supplemented with school websites and reddit.

You do have to put in the work though.

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

In God we trust, all others must present data. - Google CEO Eric Schmidt

It's a lot older than that...been above the door of the Johnson Space Center Mission Control Room for many decades.

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

While weak students from top programs are still, most likely among the top 20% of the med school graduates in a given year, what you don't have are the data for the top students at the least impressive programs. It is possible for those students to rise to the top and garner good residencies, if that is what they want. Schools that are lower in the research rankings are often deliberately working to fulfill their mission to train physicians who will serve underserved communities and to provide primary care.

On the other hand, some of the least amazing residency programs in the US are not attracting any US med school grads. I was quite astounded when my mom was transferred from a community hospital to a hospital in a bigger city for a procedure (that ended up not being done). Every single medicine resident in this backwater city of 100,000 was a foreign medical graduate. I suspect that being a graduate of a US med school is an advantage and the dregs are going to FMGs.

Exactly. I think I'll tack your post on my refrigerator. One just has to look at the match data for many of the mid-pack / lower tier schools. People match to amazing places every year from those schools.

 

[ItAintEasyBeingCheesy]

In God we trust, all others must present data. - Google CEO Eric Schmidt

Well when the data is so heavily guarded and unattainable I don’t see any other option. And I’m not just making random speculation, I laid out my line of thinking towards why MCAT scores would correlate with greater scientific discovery. If you see any gaps or missteps in my logic, I welcome any objections.

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

Again, more information parents and premeds don’t have access to. Why don’t you go market and publicize this knowledge to premeds nationwide. Or find someone to do it. Because until then, the reality of the situation is that USNews rankings is the best option for the masses as a whole. Can’t use MSAR if no one knows about it.

If someone is seriously looking to apply to med school, it's hard to not stumble on MSAR. I mean you go to AAMC for the application process, do a little bit of reading and familiarization about the process, and pretty soon you see MSAR. Between AAMC and one's pre-med advisor, I hardly think it's hidden.

 

[pierty]

Not acting in bad faith here, just stating my opinion. If this is an open forum for discussion where we’re allowed to express our opinions I don’t see why I shouldn’t be able to express my opinion that it’s fruitless to complain over a ranking system that’s currently our best practical option. If it wasn’t the best practical option then someone would swoop in and fix it, but the fact no one has means that it’s quite possibly a much more difficult problem to solve than people in this thread are making it out to be. If USNWR is such a faulty metric and there are much better ones around that are clear and obvious, then someone would’ve done it by now. The fact no one has means this clearly is a much more complicated issue than just “USNews = bad, premeds should do their own research”.

And to reiterate, I’m not assigning any negative qualities onto you like “lazyness” or “ineptitude”. The fact that I suggested you should try fixing this actually means I think very highly of you, in the sense I think you’re a capable and intelligent enough person to be able to tackle such a complicated problem. Any negative traits you’re assuming I’m making of you is your own interpretation of what I’ve been saying, and might be a product of internal conflict from your views being challenged.

It's not a particularly difficult issue. You make many assumptions.

Assuming that everyone views the USNews as an "authority" in the same way you do is myopic. It is an opinion - and a bad example of begging the question.

Assuming no one else has "done it" means that it is "the best possible solution" is a false dichotomy. It is illogical.

And assuming no one else has provided alternate methodologies or assessments denies sources already provided to you. While none are "perfect", they are in the realm of a reasonable approximation of what they purport to measure. Focusing on student outcomes is not sufficient - but absolutely necessary as a first step for any measure of education.

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

Well when the data is so heavily guarded and unattainable I don’t see any other option. And I’m not just making random speculation, I laid out my line of thinking towards why MCAT scores would correlate with greater scientific discovery. If you see any gaps or missteps in my logic, I welcome any objections.

Pure speculation. MCAT likely correlates with a lot of things ---- and is uncorrelated or mildly correlated with others. If you don't have the data, don't speculate!

 

[deleted1065184]

If someone is seriously looking to apply to med school, it's hard to not stumble on MSAR. I mean you go to AAMC for the application process, do a little bit of reading and familiarization about the process, and pretty soon you see MSAR. Between AAMC and one's pre-med advisor, I hardly think it's hidden.

This!!!! If you put in all the work to take all the prereqs, make good grades, do ECs, shadowing, research, and take the MCAT, *surely* the barrier to understanding information about med schools isn't whether you learn about the existence of MSAR or not, lol. Worst case scenario, you can literally go browse school websites. If you can't put in the effort to do that, you're SOL anyway bc you have to do it for secondaries and interviews lol

 

[tompremed]

And you know this exactly how, other than your own notions???

Based on the empirical fact that most of the discoveries (e.g. Nobel prize in medicine) are made by graduates of elite schools (e.g. Harvard, MIT, etc) who historically (.e.g. pre-2000) accepted their students based on their GPAs and SAT (undergraduates)/or GREs (for graduate students).

According to chatGPT, among American universities, the following undergraduate institutions have produced the most Nobel Prize winners in science and medicine:
Harvard University - 31 Nobel laureates
California Institute of Technology (Caltech) - 22 Nobel laureates
Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) - 19 Nobel laureates
Stanford University - 18 Nobel laureates
University of Chicago - 13 Nobel laureates

 

[deleted1065184]

Based on the empirical fact that most of the discoveries (e.g. Nobel prize in medicine) are made by graduates of elite schools (e.g. Harvard, MIT, etc) who historically (.e.g. pre-2000) accepted their students based on their GPAs and/or GREs (for graduate students).

Have you actually gone through the list of the medicine Nobel Laureates? A really nice chunk of them didn't even do their doctorate in the US, lol. Also, have you taken the GRE? It is the exact same for every single graduate program. People getting a PhD in molecular microbiology took the same entrance exam as people getting a PhD in French literature. It was a useful exam, that's why nobody uses it anymore.

 

[tompremed]

Have you actually gone through the list of the medicine Nobel Laureates? A really nice chunk of them didn't even do their PhD in the US, lol. Also, have you taken the GRE? It is the exact same for every single graduate program. People getting a PhD in molecular microbiology took the same entrance exam as people getting a PhD in French literature. It was a useful exam, that's why nobody uses it anymore.

See the above for the undergraduate institutions of Nobel prize winners.

"According to ETS, the GRE aims to measure verbal reasoning, quantitative reasoning, analytical writing, and critical thinking skills that have been acquired over a long period of learning. (Wikipedia)" One can argue that these qualities are foundational to scientific discoveries no matter what discipline it is. Also as I recall, besides GRE General Test there are subject GREs where most of science graduate programs require.

As for stopping GREs - I believe most science graduate programs still require them and only waive them due to COVID. I can only speculate that the programs that dropped them permanently were virtual signaling and were pressured by DEI activists. I won't be surprised some schools stop all math testing altogether as math is "racist" according to at least one Stanford professor. Yet another reason is probably legal. As you must be aware, SAT scores are one of the main evidences for the supreme court affirmative action case, it make sense schools will drop these test requirements to avoid future lawsuits.

 

[deleted1065184]

See the above for the undergraduate institutions of Nobel prize winners.

"According to ETS, the GRE aims to measure verbal reasoning, quantitative reasoning, analytical writing, and critical thinking skills that have been acquired over a long period of learning. (Wikipedia)" One can argue that these qualities are foundational to scientific discoveries no matter what discipline it is. Also as I recall, besides GRE General Test there are subject GREs where most of science graduate programs require.

As for stopping GREs - I believe most science graduate programs still require them and only waive them due to COVID. I can only speculate that the programs that dropped them permanently were virtual signaling and were pressured by DEI activists. I won't be surprised some schools stop all math testing altogether as math is "racist" according to at least one Stanford professor. Yet another reason is probably legal. As you must be aware, SAT scores are one of the main evidences for the supreme court affirmative action case, it make sense schools will drop these test requirements to avoid future lawsuits.

Dude I don't understand why you are so confident despite not knowing what you're talking about. Again, I have a STEM PhD. Do you? There has been a movement to drop the GRE for several years due to it being useless. Most biomedical sciences PhD programs got rid of the GRE (or made it optional) between 2018-2019, before COVID. As somebody who was a grad student during this time and actively involved in the discussions with deans, I can assure you that the driving force behind getting rid of it was that it was universally viewed by faculty and students as useless and not predictive of success...while also posing as a financial barrier for less wealthy students. That's why it got dropped.

You're doing all of this speculating based on what you think is true. I'm telling you that I was there and I know what happened. Science | AAAS

 

[tompremed]

Dude I don't understand why you are so confident despite not knowing what you're talking about. Again, I have a STEM PhD. Do you? There has been a movement to drop the GRE for several years due to it being useless. Most biomedical sciences PhD programs got rid of the GRE (or made it optional) between 2018-2019, before COVID. As somebody who was a grad student during this time and actively involved in the discussions with deans, I can assure you that the driving force behind getting rid of it was that it was universally viewed by faculty and students as useless and not predictive of success...while also posing as a financial barrier for less wealthy students. That's why it got dropped.

You're doing all of this speculating based on what you think is true. I'm telling you that I was there and I know what happened. Science | AAAS

LOL a science Ph.D. So you are not a real doctor then. And for a science Ph.D. you need to refresh your logic skills. You claimed IQ test is racist yet mentioned in Africans in UK have higher average IQ scores. By the way I cannot find any reference to this. can you supply?

Also I found the below headline from Science (29 May 2019). Clearly diversity played a major role (ahead of predictive value) in schools dropping GRE, contrary to what you said. And only about 1/3-50% dropped GRE requirement in 2019, not most as you claimed.

"Amid concerns about diversity and the test’s predictive value, an increasing number of science Ph.D. programs are joining the "GRExit" movement, according to our investigation"​

 

[deleted1065184]

LOL a science Ph.D. So you are not a real doctor then. And for a science Ph.D. you need to refresh your logic skills. You claimed IQ test is racist yet mentioned in Africans in UK have higher average IQ scores. By the way I cannot find any reference to this. can you supply?

I'm not sure what you mean by "not a real doctor", but that just told me a lot about your maturity. This really reads like a middle schooler's relatiatory outburst, lol. Scientists are real doctors. Doctor is a broad term. I'm not a physician, but I'm very much a real doctor. Period. But I'm also an M3, so in a little over a year I'll have 2 doctorates more than you.

And I literally addressed that point about IQ in an earlier comment. Is there a reason you a restating something that was already addressed? Either you haven't been reading my responses (would not he surprised), or you're simply not understanding. And yes I could supply the data, but I'll let you figure that out. It will help you improve your reasoning skills.

Also I found the below headline from Science (29 May 2019). Clearly diversity played a major role (ahead of predictive value) in schools dropping GRE, contrary to what you said. And only about 1/3-50% dropped GRE requirement in 2019, not most as you claimed.

"Amid concerns about diversity and the test’s predictive value, an increasing number of science Ph.D. programs are joining the "GRExit" movement, according to our investigation"​

Semantics arguement wrt "most". The point was that COVID was not the when programs started to drop the GRE, which you erroneously stated. This is not saying anything differently than what I said. I *literally* said it was not predictive of success and brought up the financial barrier (clearly relevant to diversity). Again, I was in the rooms, I was having the convos. You need to learn to read to comprehend, not to argue. You continue to make baseless statements, and it's getting ridiculous. This is the last message you're getting from me. Goodnight.

 

[tompremed]

I'm not sure what you mean by "not a real doctor", but that just told me a lot about your maturity. This really reads like a middle schooler's relatiatory outburst, lol. Scientists are real doctors. Doctor is a broad term. I'm not a physician, but I'm very much a real doctor. Period. But I'm also an M3, so in a little over a year I'll have 2 doctorates more than you.

And I literally addressed that point about IQ in an earlier comment. Is there a reason you a restating something that was already addressed? Either you haven't been reading my responses (would not he surprised), or you're simply not understanding. And yes I could supply the data, but I'll let you figure that out. It will help you improve your reasoning skills.

Semantics arguement wrt "most". The point was that COVID was not the when programs started to drop the GRE, which you erroneously stated. This is not saying anything differently than what I said. I *literally* said it was not predictive of success and brought up the financial barrier (clearly relevant to diversity). Again, I was in the rooms, I was having the convos. You need to learn to read to comprehend, not to argue. You continue to make baseless statements, and it's getting ridiculous. This is the last message you're getting from me. Goodnight.

Wow - feeling superior, aren't we?! I am curious on what basis you claim to have two doctorates compared to me. Are you assuming that I do not also hold a Ph.D or M.D., or both? It is dangerous to reach a conclusion based on incomplete information. And also to conclude about the effectiveness of GRE while it is still being debated. Certainly not what I want to see in a medical doctor. It seems that your argument is based solely on emotions rather than evidence. I have provided the majority of the evidence while you have merely waved it away, i.e. historically, GPA and standardized testing have yielded demonstrable results, i.e. the success of science and medicine in recent years.

My concluding remarks are that as an immigrant, I am most concerned with the current trend of getting rid of what's has been working in favor of DEI (much of the antics are similar to what happened during Cultural Revolution in China), and it may lead to irreparable harm to the competitiveness of the United States and the advancement of science as a whole.

Goodnight.

 

[deleted1115000]

I didn't make this comparison. First I said take a premed who performed well on the MCAT and see how they perform in the clinic to demonstrate the the MCAT does not test anything relevant to clinical medicine.

Next, I said that there's no difference between *physicians* who score 500 vs 520. I did not compare a physician with a low score to a premed to a high score. Quit making things up for talking points, please.



See above comment, same response. Please read what I write better.

I'm not going to watch this right now lol, but feel free to summarize the finding and strength if correlation here.

Summary: You made a baseless claim that isn't correct.

You're coming after the other person in this thread for doing the same thing you yourself are doing, touting opinions as fact. Where is the data that shows there's no difference in physicians based on MCAT score? It does not exist, and will never be conducted, so any opinion on the matter is purely speculation.

It is my opinion that it should be used for medical school admission and should reflect on a schools rank as it takes critical thinking and the ability to perform under pressure to do well, two very important qualities.

 

[deleted1065184]

Summary: You made a baseless claim that isn't correct.

You're coming after the other person in this thread for doing the same thing you yourself are doing, touting opinions as fact. Where is the data that shows there's no difference in physicians based on MCAT score? It does not exist, and will never be conducted, so any opinion on the matter is purely speculation.

It is my opinion that it should be used for medical school admission and should reflect on a schools rank as it takes critical thinking and the ability to perform under pressure to do well, two very important qualities.

My claim wasn't baseless, just not statistically proven. I know plenty of physicians who scored within a broad range of MCAT scores, and several of the lower scoring ones are now department chairs, highly respected in their fields, etc. I'll agree that it's not statistically backed, but your understanding of what I was saying was completely flawed from the beginning. You misunderstood me and that led to this tangent.

I don't have statistical proof that a premed who scores well on the MCAT won't be a good clinician, but I think there's room to acknowledge that not all statistically unproven claims are made equal. Anecdote is not entirely useless. I'm sure you'd agree that a premed with a good MCAT score won't be a good physician. If I made the claim that you don't know if I could beat LeBron in a 1v1 game of basketball or not, because there's no evidence, you'd immediately realize I was speaking non-sense.

The other poster was making claims like most Medicine/Physiology Nobel Laureates were people with high MCAT scores, and that more scientific discoveries were being made by people with higher MCAT/GPAs. Considering most scientific discoveries are made by PhDs and not MDs, that sounds already a ridiculous claim. And considering PhD programs care MUCH less about GPA than MD programs, that's also ridiculous. That's quite different than my reasonable, yet unproven, assumption that there's not a difference between performance as a clinician based on MCAT scores (which I base on my personal experience).

Lastly, you should apologize for leading with statement that you have no stake in this debate, because you very clearly do and have since the beginning. You presented yourself as a neutral party, when that last paragraph just made it clear that you actually have a very clear stance on the topic.

I disagree on the last part, but there's no need for us to discuss it further. (1) I don't have the energy anymore and (2) I'm sure we won't change each other's minds. I don't have anything else to say on this subject matter. Goodnight to you.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Let’s stop bickering with each other, or I’ll be thread banning people. If you don’t like someone else please put on ignore.

 

[esob]

To expound on the details of this topic, the original post states, "Looks like US News intends to include withdrawn schools moving forward using past and publicly available information. What are people's thoughts?"

- If you are taking the conversation out to left field (which has already happened) = derailing the thread = infraction +/- ban
- If you are making statements that are obvious personal attacks against another member = violation of TOS = infraction +/- ban


- Having a difference of opinion with another member and offering a rebuttal to a "topic-relevant" discussion is entirely fine.

 

[Lawpy]

Considering most scientific discoveries are made by PhDs and not MDs, that sounds already a ridiculous claim.

I keep thinking about this, and while I agree with your broader point, I still think this comparison downplays MDs. The discrepancy exists largely because of how few MDs go into research to make groundbreaking discoveries. There are lots of examples of MDs making Nobel Prize winning discoveries ranging from cardiac catheterizations to G proteins to oxygen sensing, it’s just that most MDs would like to spend time in the clinic but the existence of PhD is fundamentally settled in research.

 

[Lawpy]

Back to the main point, US News is doing heavy damage control after it sustained a severe blow to its reputation. They’re writing opeds in the WSJ trying to defend their rankings but it’s clear schools aren’t going to be persuaded, and people interested in prestige aren’t going to buy the fact that Harvard suddenly dropped in rankings simply because it withheld information

Rankings by their nature are flawed but the fundamental purpose behind the existence of USNWR rankings has been completely undermined. At this point, it’s no different from taking the Top 10-20 schools and using a random number generator to publish rankings.

 

[deleted1065184]

I keep thinking about this, and while I agree with your broader point, I still think this comparison downplays MDs. The discrepancy exists largely because of how few MDs go into research to make groundbreaking discoveries. There are lots of examples of MDs making Nobel Prize winning discoveries ranging from cardiac catheterizations to G proteins to oxygen sensing, it’s just that most MDs would like to spend time in the clinic but the existence of PhD is fundamentally settled in research.

I agree. To be clear, I'm not dismissing MDs or their capacity to make scientific discoveries. In the early-to-mid 1900s, MDs were the biomedical scientists. At that time, being an MD more commonly meant inherently being a clinician and a researcher.

Some of the most accomplished and talented older scientists at my school came up in this era, prior to the MD/PhD boom and shift of biomedical science research from MDs to PhDs and MD/PhDs. None of three I'm thinking of who went to school in the US went to a T20 medical school, and 2 of them didn't even go to a T50 medical school lol. The other 2 went to school overseas at reasonably well-respected institutions but no huge names like Oxford, Cambridge, Karolinska, Toronto, ICL, etc.

My statement was specifically within the context of a claim made that most discoveries are made by high MCAT/GPA people, and I only intend for it to be read within that context. I'm not disrespecting the many MD-only scientists who have also made great contributions to science over the decades.

And to take it back to the original context of the thread, *in my opinion*, MCAT/GPA do not correlate with research prowess and should not be a consideration in the development of a medical school research rankings...which is another one of the clear flaws to USNWR methodology and why I don't believe it should be used by premeds to choose medical schools. This, along with the fact that the difference in research resources between Hopkins and a school like UNC/UCLA is functionally meaningless to medical students. They will never utilize even a fraction of the incredible research resources UNC/UCLA has.

I'm going to bow out of this discussion now before I get in trouble lol, y'all have a good weekend.

 

[MDMechEngr]

People will still gravitate toward USNWR for school ranking. That will not change as they have already "coner the market." LOL.