(2025!) Which MD-PhD/MSTP programs won't kill my chances...

[LastOneToDo]

of also being considered for MD? I was happy to learn that some programs do truly consider applicants equally for both programs, and people on SDN have previously compiled a list of these programs. Since admissions policies have surely changed in the last decade, I wanted to ask for help compiling a more updated list for this round.

some context:

I'm going to be applying to both MD and dual degree programs in this cycle. From conversations with admissions coordinators and former applicants, I've come to understand that, for most schools, applying to a dual degree program effectively ends your chances of being admitted in the MD pool. Though these schools ask if you want to be considered for both MD and MD-PhD, you are only considered for MD after you are rejected from the MD-PhD pool. That means by the time you start at square one in the MD process (likely in the winter or even spring of the following year) every MD applicant who will receive an acceptance has already done so, and the incoming class is all but full.

I hope this does not come across as arrogant. I understand that these programs serve different purposes, and I ideally should know which one I want to be admitted to, but I've spent the last four years dedicated to gaining both research and clinical experience precisely so I could be have some flexibility during applications. I really love research and will pursue it in some way regardless of the title I receive at the end of graduate school, and also know that MDs frequently do research and even open up their own labs, so I'm frustrated to hear from school reps and mentors that I need to know which program I want. If it really is the case that a student will either be a good MD or MD-PhD to me is detracted by the fact that the programs are nearly identical in their requirements, and schools offer "dual-consideration" in the first place. Thank you for reading. <3

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[Mr.Smile12]

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I don't agree with the characterization but I defer to those involved with the process more.

I think the description that one is effectively blocked from the MD process if you are considered for MD/PhD is hyperbole; you have to meet expectations for MD admission too. The MD class isn't full until spring, and we set aside seats for articulation admission and contingencies like those not selected for MD/PhD. Maybe some offices do a better job than others, but admissions directors try to keep up with getting those file reviews expedited.

I get your perspective. Some MD programs encourage student scholarship without pursuing a PhD. Some students take research leaves for stronger residency applications. You should understand how to manage your future career if you lock yourself into 8+ years of schooling. In short, make sure your school list resonates with your goals with translational research.

Also, ask the APSA.

 

[LizzyM]

Look at it from the school's perspective: if you want MD/PhD and you aren't getting an offer from my school's MSTP office, we could consider you for MD-only but we might think that you'll choose another school's MD/PhD over us so why should we expend any effort on considering you a late entry into the MD pool? In other words, schools to which you are not selected for MD/PhD will yield protect when it comes to considering you for MD-only.

 

[Neuronix]

so I'm frustrated to hear from school reps and mentors that I need to know which program I want.

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but you should make up your mind about MD or MD/PhD before you apply.

Why can't you decide about this now?

 

[LastOneToDo]

Look at it from the school's perspective: if you want MD/PhD and you aren't getting an offer from my school's MSTP office, we could consider you for MD-only but we might think that you'll choose another school's MD/PhD over us so why should we expend any effort on considering you a late entry into the MD pool? In other words, schools to which you are not selected for MD/PhD will yield protect when it comes to considering you for MD-only.

Again, I apologize if I come across as arrogant. I am venting my frustration in my position, but I understand your point completely that schools design their applications according to rational considerations. Moving past justifications, I just want to find schools that do offer equal chances at both MD and MD-PhD.

Why can't you decide about this now?

The primary concern for me as an applicant is getting into a program. I've worked for the last four years as a pre-medical student for the one thing I am sure of: I want to be a doctor. Again, I will try to pursue research regardless whether it be through the dual degree or a future fellowship/masters as an MD, so my first priority was having a successful application to medical school. Since MD-PhD programs are more difficult to enter (more rigorous requirements, relatively tinier class sizes, and more competitive applicant pool) I would only apply to the dual degree programs that had the best value or would allow me to apply simultaneously to MD; I tried to make this determination by soliciting the advise of the current students from the programs. I looked for programs (as per the students) who integrated the two tracks well, offered a wide array of laboratories and research fields to enter, and regularly coordinated with students during the grad years to make sure PhD projects were completed in due time. For these schools I will choose to apply dual-degree. For the other programs I will apply MD, as the MD path leaves me the most flexible: as an MD, if I really wanted to I could still apply internally to MD-PhD in my first year, I was also recommended by MSTP students to instead pursue their school's masters in research programs rather and save myself the 2-3 years for the PhD—conversely I've also heard that a PhD is truly unique in its ability to teach project design and grant writing so I would probably prioritize the internal application beyond a masters. Again this is to explain what my personal thoughts are, not to be dogmatic or say what I think is right.

Thanks for your replies.

For a list of programs I've compiled so far:

UCSF -> Truly simultaneous consideration where you will be considered by two different programs and will receive independent interviews and acceptances from both committees at different times.

Brown -> Doesn't have a direct MSTP application at all but rather you apply to the MD program and enter an internal PhD application in your first year.

 

[InternationalChaos]

From what I hear from you, I think you should be applying to MD only programs, and leave the PhD work for some later date. One of my colleagues did his PhD about a decade after medical school, as an established attending. There are some distinct advantages you gain from doing the PhD later, chiefly having the career experience to select a PhD topic that is truly right for you. It can be easy to throw years of your life into studying some mitochondrial defect that your PI knows a lot about, when years later you realize what really inspires you is developing biomaterials, for example. You can also stop at the MD and still establish a lab career, as you mentioned.

By the way, I'm in the same position as you as far as still being an applicant for MD/PhD programs, so I am not speaking from direct experience, but I have the perspective of being surrounded by physicians, scientists, and physician-scientists every day at Duke University. Let me tell you, on the lab side, absolutely no one but yourself cares about which title you hold. Research speaks for itself. If you publish great work in great journals, you gain respect in the field.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

The primary concern for me as an applicant is getting into a program. I've worked for the last four years as a pre-medical student for the one thing I am sure of: I want to be a doctor. Again, I will try to pursue research regardless whether it be through the dual degree or a future fellowship/masters as an MD, so my first priority was having a successful application to medical school. Since MD-PhD programs are more difficult to enter (more rigorous requirements, relatively tinier class sizes, and more competitive applicant pool) I would only apply to the dual degree programs that had the best value or would allow me to apply simultaneously to MD; I tried to make this determination by soliciting the advise of the current students from the programs. I looked for programs (as per the students) who integrated the two tracks well, offered a wide array of laboratories and research fields to enter, and regularly coordinated with students during the grad years to make sure PhD projects were completed in due time. For these schools I will choose to apply dual-degree. For the other programs I will apply MD, as the MD path leaves me the most flexible: as an MD, if I really wanted to I could still apply internally to MD-PhD in my first year, I was also recommended by MSTP students to instead pursue their school's masters in research programs rather and save myself the 2-3 years for the PhD—conversely I've also heard that a PhD is truly unique in its ability to teach project design and grant writing so I would probably prioritize the internal application beyond a masters. Again this is to explain what my personal thoughts are, not to be dogmatic or say what I think is right.

You have come to the right place to express your frustrations. It is good to know all of your options as you narrow down a school list that can fit your expectations best.

Again, I can't address whether MD/PhD programs are more difficult to enter because of their requirements, class size, or more competitive applicant pool. I know that you have many offramps for research if you only get into an MD-only program/track; others have commented to that effect.

Have you connected with the APSA Undergraduate & Post Baccalaureate Mentorship Program https://www.physicianscientists.org/page/ugmentoring ? Is ti still around?

 

[Fencer]

The APSA program is still around and growing. I saw some of their outcomes at a recent meeting; they were terrific.