25 CCOMers held back?

[moy505]

So according to the CCOM website in 2015 the class of 2014 had a "88.24% (preliminary as defined by IPEDS)" graduation rate. This means that ~12% of the class did NOT graduate in 4 years. Since the class size is 206 that means about 25 students graduate in 5 years/dropout. Doesn't that sound really high?


https://www.midwestern.edu/programs-and-admission/il-osteopathic-medicine.html

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[PIacebo]

We have lost over 25 people in a class less than 125..and we haven't even found out how many from this past semester of 2nd year! I would say that is a lot, no??

 

[cbrons]

So according to the CCOM website in 2015 the class of 2014 had a "88.24% (preliminary as defined by IPEDS)" graduation rate. This means that ~12% of the class did NOT graduate in 4 years. Since the class size is 206 that means about 25 students graduate in 5 years/dropout. Doesn't that sound really high?


https://www.midwestern.edu/programs-and-admission/il-osteopathic-medicine.html

We have lost over 25 people in a class less than 125..and we haven't even found out how many from this past semester of 2nd year! I would say that is a lot, no??

Depends on if those are drop-outs, voluntary leave of absences, and failures. If its a mixture of ALL of those, then it is still pretty high. High enough that at an MD school I would imagine LCME would investigate.

If those represent only failures, that is astronomical.

 

[FistLength]

That is absurdly high.

Lulz@ "Fun Facts"

 

[Low Flow]

That does seem a bit outlandish. I wonder what could be going on with that many students requiring an extra year (or more) to graduate. The percentage goes up for each class going back, so a decent amount of them must be graduating late.

 

[AlteredScale]

So according to the CCOM website in 2015 the class of 2014 had a "88.24% (preliminary as defined by IPEDS)" graduation rate. This means that ~12% of the class did NOT graduate in 4 years. Since the class size is 206 that means about 25 students graduate in 5 years/dropout. Doesn't that sound really high?


https://www.midwestern.edu/programs-and-admission/il-osteopathic-medicine.html

There's a "decelerated" 5 year program at CCOM. This does not mean that 25 students dropped out but more likely means they are taking an extra year either for 1) academic troubles (unlikely 25 students are doing that) or 2) spending an extra year committed to full time research before applying for residency. Those in the second category are more than likely shooting to enter competitive specialties like dermatology, ENT, or neurosurgery, which all look for things beyond an excellent step score and solid LORs..so research output.

 

[SLC]

That is absurdly high.

Lulz@ "Fun Facts"

My class at SOMA lost less than 10 (out of 110). I think it was 6 total.

 

[ortnakas]

Mine lost 4 between year 1 and 2 out of 115 or so. One decided to pursue something else, and 3 are first years again so they should graduate within 5 years.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

We have lost over 25 people in a class less than 125..and we haven't even found out how many from this past semester of 2nd year! I would say that is a lot, no??

Personally I would say that's unreasonably high. No school should be failing out or having substantial chunks of their class remediate a year ( I think over 5% is pushing it).

 

[costales]

We have lost over 25 people in a class less than 125..and we haven't even found out how many from this past semester of 2nd year! I would say that is a lot, no??

Name your school, please.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

Personally I would say that's unreasonably high. No school should be failing out or having substantial chunks of their class remediate a year ( I think over 5% is pushing it).

Maybe they weren't all academic related.

People do stupid things to get kicked out. Like trying to steal a HDD from a school computer...

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Maybe they weren't all academic related.

People do stupid things to get kicked out. Like trying to steal a HDD from a school computer...

I don't think anyone will top that this year I think....

 

[hallowmann]

So according to the CCOM website in 2015 the class of 2014 had a "88.24% (preliminary as defined by IPEDS)" graduation rate. This means that ~12% of the class did NOT graduate in 4 years. Since the class size is 206 that means about 25 students graduate in 5 years/dropout. Doesn't that sound really high?


https://www.midwestern.edu/programs-and-admission/il-osteopathic-medicine.html

Actually that isn't so bad. Many MD schools have a similar percentage. Don't forget that this includes people who take an LOA for personal or medical reasons, take a research year, take extra time to study for boards (them being off-cycle of the match even by a month might make it worth it to just extend your graduation to the next year), fail and retake, and those that just say screw it to med school.

And to the comment the LCME would sanction a school with a 4 yr graduation rate in the 88.5% range, that's ridiculous. Maybe 4-6yr graduation rate in that range, but believe it or not MDs take LOAs, research years, and even *gasp* remediate as well.

12% full attrition isn't that damning. What I'd like to see is what percentage of the class finishes in 5-6 yrs, because if that's <4%, then it might be a bit alarming.

And in case anyone is doubting my assertion about MD schools and the LCME, the AAMC did a report about graduation rates at MD schools examining historic data and the 2013 graduation year. Here it is: https://www.aamc.org/download/37922...onratesandattritionfactorsforusmedschools.pdf

 

[hallowmann]

Maybe they weren't all academic related.

People do stupid things to get kicked out. Like trying to steal a HDD from a school computer...

Woah, woah, woah, what did I miss?

 

[asdf123g]

Name your school, please.

osu, wcu, or atsu-soma. All class sizes under 125 according to CIB.

 

[GUH]

Some LOAs are also due to pregnancy, which the school can't really help.

 

[SLC]

Maybe they weren't all academic related.

People do stupid things to get kicked out. Like trying to steal a HDD from a school computer...

Wait, what?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

osu, wcu, or atsu-soma. All class sizes under 125 according to CIB.

ATSU and WCU have both historically had some higher than normal drop out rates, though SOMA has seemed to reverse this and is more normal. But honestly WCU needs to be majorly reviewed. They're scrapping bottom of the barrel applicants, their 3rd and 4th years seem very weak and have been very heavily criticized on this board, and in general should probably reduce their class size even further down to below 100.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Woah, woah, woah, what did I miss?

Wait, what?

A very unique method to getting an expulsion.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

Wait, what?

The student body at our school has transformed quite a bit in the last 2-3 years. As the stats have increased so have the personality quirks of the in coming classes. c/o 2017 was this amazingly laid back class that loved helping eachother out and would go out of their way to make sure their juniors succeeded. My anatomy tutor came in the night before our neuro practical to make sure we got all the help we needed. I didn't even know he had a final the next day.

C/o 2018 is sort of in the middle. C/o 2019 are just...

Someone thought it would be a great idea to steal a HDD from one of the school computers. He thought the exams were stored on the HDD. The cleaning lady caught him in the act. I believe he was arrested and taken away.

Another student had a cheat sheet hidden in his iPad cover while taking an anatomy practical.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The student body at our school has transformed quite a bit in the last 2-3 years. As the stats have increased so have the personality quirks of the in coming classes. c/o 2017 was this amazingly laid back class that loved helping eachother out and would go out of their way to make sure their juniors succeeded. My anatomy tutor came in the night before our neuro practical to make sure we got all the help we needed. I didn't even know he had a final the next day.

C/o 2018 is sort of in the middle. C/o 2019 are just...

Someone thought it would be a great idea to steal a HDD from one of the school computers. The cleaning lady caught him in the act. I believe he was arrested and taken away.

Another student had a cheat sheet hidden in his iPad cover while taking an anatomy practical.

I'm not going to lie, 2019 is a lot more gunnerish and a lot more orientated around being the highest caliber applicants come residency applications to the point that people are scoring unrealistically on some of our exams and putting a lot of pressure on the bottom quartile of our class. I mean even from the beginning when we were doing biochem and I got my midterm score back it seemed like more than half the class failed and the other half got 100s and we had tons of ppl fail or get close to failing.

 

[costales]

Someone thought it would be a great idea to steal a HDD from one of the school computers. He thought the exams were stored on the HDD. The cleaning lady caught him in the act. I believe he was arrested and taken away.
Another student had a cheat sheet hidden in his iPad cover while taking an anatomy practical.

I bet that wasn't their first time doing that crap. Good riddance.

 

[AlteredScale]

I'm not going to lie, 2019 is a lot more gunnerish and a lot more orientated around being the highest caliber applicants come residency applications to the point that people are scoring unrealistically on some of our exams and putting a lot of pressure on the bottom quartile of our class. I mean even from the beginning when we were doing biochem and I got my midterm score back it seemed like more than half the class failed and the other half got 100s and we had tons of ppl fail or get close to failing.

A good chunk of our class is extremey competitive. You have people who are wanting to do cardiothoracic surgery and ortho (at JHU to add)....So they put their money where their mouth is to make sure they score at the very tippy top. It's tiring because I myself can't get away from "grades". There's more to medicine than grades but our class doesn't seem to really get that.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I bet that wasn't their first time doing that crap. Good riddance.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was though. It seems like over half our class has self built computers rocking extreme processors, top tier gpus in sli/crossfire that cost like small cars. Like I've never seen so many PC gamers in the same room ever lol. So the skill set is well, there more or less.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

A good chunk of our class is extremey competitive. You have people who are wanting to do cardiothoracic surgery and ortho (at JHU to add)....So they put their money where their mouth is to make sure they score at the very tippy top. It's tiring because I myself can't get away from "grades". There's more to medicine than grades but our class doesn't seem to really get that.

I was really grade intensive when I got in and probably till the end of Immuno I was like all about aiming really high. But then MSK happened and Cardiopulm and I realized that I need to start thinking about actually getting through medical school in healthy set of mind and honestly, if losing a A- or a B+ has to happen for that, then it's really fine. My only issue is that with all of these tests and the limited amount of time they give us, I'm left with some irritable holes in my knowledge that I just pretend I can cover by knowing other stuff well enough.

But yah, honestly when it comes to DO schools I think we have legitimately some of the most gunnerish and high tier aspiring students that one could imagine. It just really ends up kinda screwing with the averages however, I mean when the professors are repeatedly expecting the averages to be 5% lower it basically means that there's some damage to the curve for the ppl at the bottom of the class.

 

[MidwestSanta]

CCOM doesn't decrease their class sizes as students leave. 206 is the number of students that show up to orientation. Considering the school is located in an area with a ton of other med schools 1-2 students each year end up being accepted to a different med school during the "trial" week and leave to attend Rosalind Franklin or Loyola. 4 students will be lost to the 5 year Osteopathic fellowship. From our class 5 students (that I know of) took a medical leave of absence - either for themselves or to help family members. 2 Students dropped during first year. 3 dropped after the first block of micro during second year. You lose touch with students after second semester second year. But if you consider pregnancies, medical leaves, delays from failing COMLEX level 1 (1/2 students), and repeats - its not difficult to imagine why the number is so high.

Honestly the vast majority of the students as far as my class year was concerned, left/repeated for non-academic reasons.

 

[IsWhat]

The student body at our school has transformed quite a bit in the last 2-3 years. As the stats have increased so have the personality quirks of the in coming classes. c/o 2017 was this amazingly laid back class that loved helping eachother out and would go out of their way to make sure their juniors succeeded. My anatomy tutor came in the night before our neuro practical to make sure we got all the help we needed. I didn't even know he had a final the next day.

C/o 2018 is sort of in the middle. C/o 2019 are just...

Someone thought it would be a great idea to steal a HDD from one of the school computers. He thought the exams were stored on the HDD. The cleaning lady caught him in the act. I believe he was arrested and taken away.

Another student had a cheat sheet hidden in his iPad cover while taking an anatomy practical.

Are you talking about SOMA?

 

[AlteredScale]

Are you talking about SOMA?

Nah KCU

 

[Low Flow]

I was really grade intensive when I got in and probably till the end of Immuno I was like all about aiming really high. But then MSK happened and Cardiopulm and I realized that I need to start thinking about actually getting through medical school in healthy set of mind and honestly, if losing a A- or a B+ has to happen for that, then it's really fine. My only issue is that with all of these tests and the limited amount of time they give us, I'm left with some irritable holes in my knowledge that I just pretend I can cover by knowing other stuff well enough.

But yah, honestly when it comes to DO schools I think we have legitimately some of the most gunnerish and high tier aspiring students that one could imagine. It just really ends up kinda screwing with the averages however, I mean when the professors are repeatedly expecting the averages to be 5% lower it basically means that there's some damage to the curve for the ppl at the bottom of the class.

It's unfortunate if the students at the top are truly "gunners"--they're being snobby about it or actually gunning. But to group them together with "high tier aspiring" students seems a bit dishonest. The responsibility shouldn't fall on those students working hard to tone it down for everyone else.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

It's unfortunate if the students at the top are truly "gunners"--they're being snobby about it or actually gunning. But to group them together with "high tier aspiring" students seems a bit dishonest. The responsibility shouldn't fall on those students working hard to tone it down for everyone else.

Oh I don't disagree. I'm usually in the middle of my class so I don't particularly disagree that people need to study less or anything. I just think that there is indeed a lot of people on the top tier who are gunning hard.

 

[AlteredScale]

Oh I don't disagree. I'm usually in the middle of my class so I don't particularly disagree that people need to study less or anything. I just think that there is indeed a lot of people on the top tier who are gunning hard.

I still believe a big reasson why there was such a discrepancy for the first few blocks was we had a good number in our class who had either done an smp or were in cob (which particularly gave an advatage up until renal). The renal avgs were pretty low compared to everything else so far.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I still believe a big reasson why there was such a discrepancy for the first few blocks was we had a good number in our class who had either done an smp or were in cob (which particularly gave an advatage up until renal). The renal avgs were pretty low compared to everything else so far.

That has to do with our professor not teaching it very well and her questions basically ranging from including material we've never covered to being out there in space.

 

[AlteredScale]

That has to do with our professor not teaching it very well and her questions basically ranging from including material we've never covered to being out there in space.

Hmm gues we have a different opinion on this. I think she did fine. Her test questions were much harder though compared to anything else we have had. First order questions are quickly becoming myths.

 

[68PGunner]

I still believe a big reasson why there was such a discrepancy for the first few blocks was we had a good number in our class who had either done an smp or were in cob (which particularly gave an advatage up until renal). The renal avgs were pretty low compared to everything else so far

The equalizer will be in your clinical year. That's where top tier applicants based on grades but without a personality will get weeded out or face a harsh reality check.

 

[AlteredScale]

The equalizer will be in your clinical year. That's where top tier applicants based on grades but without a personality will get weeded out or face a harsh reality check.

Yeah ive seen a handful of very smart students with dead end personalities. As you alluded to, itll be a tough road come third year.

 

[PIacebo]

It was 95% from failures. Less than 5 left on their own.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

Oh I don't disagree. I'm usually in the middle of my class so I don't particularly disagree that people need to study less or anything. I just think that there is indeed a lot of people on the top tier who are gunning hard.

Yeah ive seen a handful of very smart students with dead end personalities. As you alluded to, itll be a tough road come third year.

When Dr. Puthoff begins teaching a lot of arrogant students will start to become more humble.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Hmm gues we have a different opinion on this. I think she did fine. Her test questions were much harder though compared to anything else we have had. First order questions are quickly becoming myths.

Personally I came to really like renal by the end of the course. I found that it followed a logic and generally that compensated for what I would call a slight unfamiliarity with certain parts of the physiology which she herself seemed to struggle to explain or did not bother explaining at all beyond a very general accept that it's this way. And there were a decent amount of first order questions on the test, some literally were memorizing where what electrolyte is reabsorbed or secreted ( Which I personally can't say I knew 100% of the top of my hand for save MG or etc) and a few were remembering what diuretic affects what.

Idk, I liked renal a lot and I just wish we learned a bit more instead of having an excessive amount of CISes where we kinda just rehashed material over and over.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The equalizer will be in your clinical year. That's where top tier applicants based on grades but without a personality will get weeded out or face a harsh reality check.

By then plenty have dropped or left, the top tier on grades has their high USMLE board score and can get through rotations on passes and match their residency.

 

[AMEHigh]

I don't think it sounds that high. I think I can think of about 20 people who didn't graduate "on-time" myself included for positive reasons. There are several combined programs at my school that people decided to do, I decided to work overseas for a year, a few people had kids and others had health problems. I think the classes at my school usually start with around 270 and end up graduating around 240-250 that originally started with that class and the majority aren't for failing.

 

[costales]

By then plenty have dropped or left, the top tier on grades has their high USMLE board score and can get through rotations on passes and match their residency.

Depending on the specialty, a mere pass or a tepid LOR will poison their app at their top choices.

 

[SLC]

I don't think it sounds that high. I think I can think of about 20 people who didn't graduate "on-time" myself included for positive reasons. There are several combined programs at my school that people decided to do, I decided to work overseas for a year, a few people had kids and others had health problems. I think the classes at my school usually start with around 270 and end up graduating around 240-250 that originally started with that class and the majority aren't for failing.

That's still only around 10%.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

That's still only around 10%.

I think 10% failing out or being held back is a reasonable number. It's when that number hits into the 20s or 30s when you need to start reevaluating a school's existence. Which is why again, I have no idea why WCU is not being audited atm when it clearly has repeatedly had both very poor COMLEX pass rates and the lowest retention and graduation rate of all DO schools. I mean it's clearly doing something entirely wrong.

 

[SLC]

I think 10% failing out or being held back is a reasonable number. It's when that number hits into the 20s or 30s when you need to start reevaluating a school's existence. Which is why again, I have no idea why WCU is not being audited atm when it clearly has repeatedly had both very poor COMLEX pass rates and the lowest retention and graduation rate of all DO schools. I mean it's clearly doing something entirely wrong.

I sometimes forget WCU even exists.

But yeah, 10% or so is pretty much average nationwide for attrition from what I can tell.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I sometimes forget WCU even exists.

But yeah, 10% or so is pretty much average nationwide for attrition from what I can tell.

I think we all forget some of these nonsense schools after a while. They're simply put as close to a bottom tire as we are going to get with DO schools and honestly in my opinion might not actually survive another 20 years.

 

[AzizImSorry]

Oh I don't disagree. I'm usually in the middle of my class so I don't particularly disagree that people need to study less or anything. I just think that there is indeed a lot of people on the top tier who are gunning hard.

Forgive the ignorance, but how exactly do you define a gunner? I thought I knew until I read some of these posts. I did a quick search and found that it's usually people who use misinformation to get ahead and will basically do whatever they need to succeed (which is what I had thought originally)... Are you saying that there are a disproportionate number of people at KCU who fit that definition, and that most of them are at the top of the class? From your earlier posts in this thread about gunners killing the curve I figured you meant that "gunners" are people who study hard and get great grades.

I'd like to think that there are good-intentioned people who study harder than most and get good grades without being branded as gunners by their classmates haha (like @Hrdrock alluded to).

I realize this is off-topic - apologies

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Forgive the ignorance, but how exactly do you define a gunner? I thought I knew until I read some of these posts. I did a quick search and found that it's usually people who use misinformation to get ahead and will basically do whatever they need to succeed (which is what I had thought originally)... Are you saying that there are a disproportionate number of people at KCU who fit that definition, and that most of them are at the top of the class? From your earlier posts in this thread about gunners killing the curve I figured you meant that "gunners" are people who study hard and get great grades.

I'd like to think that there are good-intentioned people who study harder than most and get good grades without being branded as gunners by their classmates haha (like @Hrdrock alluded to).

I realize this is off-topic - apologies

There aren't many gunners, we just have more in our class than the last. We honestly just have a lot of high aiming students in our class who are very dedicated to an ungodly and unreasonable amount of studying to get grades to the point that we're almost always 5% above what the professors expect which puts an unfortunately high amount of stress on the bottom tier of our class since our grades are affected by usually a substantial curve the first year ( 5-8%; though next year apparently the curve is almost always 10+%).

All I can say is as our dean said, a mid tier student at our school is probably going to be top tier at most other DO schools.

 

[AzizImSorry]

There aren't many gunners, we just have more in our class than the last. We honestly just have a lot of high aiming students in our class who are very dedicated to an ungodly and unreasonable amount of studying to get grades to the point that we're almost always 5% above what the professors expect which puts an unfortunately high amount of stress on the bottom tier of our class since our grades are affected by usually a substantial curve the first year ( 5-8%; though next year apparently the curve is almost always 10+%).

All I can say is as our dean said, a mid tier student at our school is probably going to be top tier at most other DO schools.

Gotchya. Well that's good to know. Time to start studying neuro since I only have ~400 days till that starts

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Gotchya. Well that's good to know. Time to start studying neuro since I only have ~400 days till that starts

Being entirely honest, you should spend some time learning basic muscle anatomy. MSK was arguably the most painful thing I've gone through.

 

[AlteredScale]

Seeeeeems like this thread has met it's need. If you guys want to continue a conversation about "ivy-league" competitive nature of KCU students feel free to make a new thread or add to the existing KCU threads if you want. Closing.