2nd Looks?

[PMR TX MS]

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I have questions regarding second looks. When is a second look recommended? Is it pretty much required if you are seriously interested in a program? If you are pretty sure of how you plan on ranking, is a second look recommended? I appreciate the help.

Thanks!

 

[OUsooner]

I would also appreciate some feedback on this subject. I am from the midwest and I know from my personal experience programs in the Northeast seemed to tell applicants to come back for a second look if they are seriously interested (if i wasn't seriously interested I wouldn't have flown out there to interview in the first place!).
I am going back for a second look only to the program I plan to rank #1. I am frustrated that many of my interviews in the northeast don't hold as much water because I did not go back for a second look ($$$).
By the way does anybody have any experience of being told not to come back for a second look - I take it this would be the courteous thing to do if they are not seriously considering you.

 

[DigableCat]

During my residency, hardly anyone did "second looks". And I can hardly blame students. Personally, I think doing a second look is crap and should be frowned upon by the residency programs that encourage it to make it appear that you are "serious" about the program. I agree with you OUsooner that if you weren't serious you wouldnt have wasted time/money/mental energy in visiting. If 2nd looks were to hold any more weight, only those with extra money to burn(not many of us) would be able to do them. And a 2nd look does not ensure a match. Some of my friends can attest to that.

Many programs will interpret a follow up email/telephone call as interest, as well as a call from an alumni of the program/chairman of another program. Whether that will bump you up from #53 on their list to #12 is highly circumspect, but it doesn't harm you.

 

[axm397]

I would only do a 2nd look if there's something you get out of it - like getting a better "feel" for a program, helping you decide btwn your top couple choices, etc. A 2nd look can help but it can also hurt. If you don't interview well, you probably won't 2nd look well either. If a program was NOT going to rank you, showing up for a 2nd look will not change anything. If a program had you as one of their top candidates and the top candidates were all equally as excellent, a 2nd look may show more interest. But you can show interest in other ways - like writing letters, etc. I did one 2nd look at RIC - more for myself - to get a better feel for the program and to look at the city of Chicago and decide if I could live there. I was trying to choose btwn RIC and a couple other places for my #1 choice and needed the 2nd look to solidify my decision. Did it make a difference in terms of me matching at RIC? I dont' know.

 

[windycitygeezer]

2nd looks arre helpful for you but not for the program. I have been involved with interviewing candidates and organizing the rank list for my institution for several years and it really makes no difference to us. It could be very helpful for you because it is really hard to get an accurate picture of a program based on one day of interviewing.

I have questions regarding second looks. When is a second look recommended? Is it pretty much required if you are seriously interested in a program? If you are pretty sure of how you plan on ranking, is a second look recommended? I appreciate the help.

Thanks!

 

[mehul_25]

I disagree with some of the above comments. Writing thank you letters and keeping in contact with programs directors can be very helpful. I think however, that going back to a program for a 2nd look can be beneficial. In fact if you were a borderline candidate after your first interview this can push you over the top. Certainly it shows interest and gives the program some insight into your commitment. Of course if they "hated" you during your first interview it will not make a difference, but if you are very interested and you go back to your first choice it can not hurt.

 

[PMR TX MS]

Thanks for the good input so far.

Another question--what should be the timing of the second look if one decides to go for a second look?

Thanks!

 

[windycitygeezer]

Timing depends on when an institution makes their rank list. Our institution does it in mid-Feb but many others do it at the beginning of Feb so as long you make it back for a 2nd look before they make their rank list you should be fine. Although as I stated in my previous post, 2nd looks don't really change our opinions of candidates. To be honest, our residency director does not even know at times when people come back for 2nd looks because it is scheduled by a secretary in the medical education office. There is no formal evaluation of a second look so its not guaranteed that if someone likes you that the info will get back to our residency director. You can still learn a lot about the program on a 2nd look to make you more/less comfortable about your rank order

 

[euroboy98]

What does one actually do at a second visit? Pretty much shadow a resident/attending? Should I bring a white coat with me? Any other "tools" I should bring along? Thanx!

 

[hederahelix96]

I'm curious too. I am thinking of doing a second look and desperately need this opportunity to help me decide...

somebody please advise...

 

[beeda]

In november I interviewed at a program that I had heard was very good (a PGY2 friend of mine who matched somewhere else told me about it). I applied there and was granted an interview, but didn't really think that the program/area would be what I was really looking for. By the time the interview was over however, the program had jumped WAY up my list. Since I had not done a rotation there, and had only spent 5-6 hours during the interview process, I called up and asked if I could spend two or three days in the department (i.e. a second look). I wanted to go back to get a better feel for the faculty, the facilities, and the resident/attending/ancillary staff interactions.

For me, it turned out to be a great experience, and I'm very happy I went. I got to spend time with several attendings that I did not interview with, spend time in three different facilities that are part of the program, and have additional opportunities to talk to residents. In my case, I was not going back to try and "up my stock." I went because I wanted to be able to make a better decision about a program that I was thinking about ranking very highly (and am).

Additionally, I have to disagree with some of windycitygeezer's comments (no offence!) just because I think that second looks are very program specific. In my case, I spent half a day with the program director, and had a great time. I also got to spend an afternoon with another attending who is on the resident selection committee. He mentioned that he was glad that I came, because he had not been available to interview candidates on the day I was there, and he now had the chance to get to know me a little bit. In fact we spent a while doing an "informal interview" before starting clinic.

All in all, I went because I wanted to learn more about the program (not just to "show interest" - I don't have that kind of money 🙂 ) and make a better decision about what had become a very attractive/interesting/promising program for me. In my case, the experience was very valuable, and I am glad that I took the opportunity to go.


To reply to another question:

What does one actually do at a second visit? Pretty much shadow a resident/attending? Should I bring a white coat with me? Any other "tools" I should bring along? Thanx!

In my case I asked to spend a couple days in the department, and therefore I approached it very much like a rotation--I took everything I would normally take to the hospital, and just assumed that I would be asked to participate in evaluations and treatment decisions. Since everyone knew that I was also there to eval the program and get to know a little more about the people/places however, I felt free to ask as many "program-specific" questions as I wanted, and all the residents and attendings I worked with were super helpful.

 

[euroboy98]

Hi Beeda, thanks so much for the provided info; very helpful. Best of luck to you!

 

[windycitygeezer]

Additionally, I have to disagree with some of windycitygeezer's comments (no offence!) just because I think that second looks are very program specific. In my case, I spent half a day with the program director, and had a great time. I also got to spend an afternoon with another attending who is on the resident selection committee. He mentioned that he was glad that I came, because he had not been available to interview candidates on the day I was there, and he now had the chance to get to know me a little bit. In fact we spent a while doing an "informal interview" before starting clinic.

To reply to another question:

In my case I asked to spend a couple days in the department, and therefore I approached it very much like a rotation--I took everything I would normally take to the hospital, and just assumed that I would be asked to participate in evaluations and treatment decisions. Since everyone knew that I was also there to eval the program and get to know a little more about the people/places however, I felt free to ask as many "program-specific" questions as I wanted, and all the residents and attendings I worked with were super helpful.

I agree that it can be program specific but now that I have been involved in the selection process for my institution and after talking to my friends who are now involved in the selection process at their insitutions, 2nd looks are really not a major influencing factor for us. That line about 1st impressions is pretty true. I definitely feel that they are of tremendous value for the candidates to learn about a program. If you do a 2nd look and would like to influence your rank list position, I would just try to do a 2nd look with someone on the residency selection committee, program director, etc. Its kinda like med school....you gotta impress the right people to get a good grade