3.55 GPA: smp/post-bacc necessary?

[Erised Moon]

Hi,

I graduated in 2015 from a top 15 liberal arts school with an undergrad GPA of 3.55 in Biology. I initially wanted to do research, but I decided during my senior year that I would enjoy doing medicine more as a career path, and now I'm looking how to boost my GPA for med school.

MCAT: haven't taken it yet, but practice scores are around 30, so I'm not too concerned there.

My low GPA is mainly due to a C- in Cell Biology II, a C+ in Biochemistry (both due to horrible teachers), and a B- in Analytical Chemistry. But I have A's in organic chemistry and advanced biology classes, so I don't know how med schools are going to think about that...?

I really really don't want to waste more than 1-2 years preparing for med school if I can help it, so I was thinking about simply taking several upper-level undergrad courses to boost my GPA, while shadowing/volunteering, doing research, extracurriculars....you know, the whole shebang. But everyone else seems to be considering post-bacc and SMP's (or even getting a master's) to boost their low GPA's. Am I in the wrong for thinking that I can simply take undergrad courses independently without being formally enrolled in a program to compensate for my low GPA?

The main reason why I'd rather not do SMP/post-bacc is that I'm currently working in a good lab where I wish to get a LOR from, but it will likely take up all my time for labwork if I were to enroll in any formal programs, or I may even have to leave the lab. And I hear these programs are dayuuum expensive, and mostly just accelerated versions of pre-med requirements anyway, which I don't really need as I've taken all the pre-reqs apart from Physics. But if most people say that my GPA needs these programs, I would have to make the big decision to do so soon.

Can anyone offer any words of advice? SMP, post-bacc, or just take independent undergrad courses for my 3.55 GPA? Thank you in advance!

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[ZedsDed]

You need to take a step back and reassess your application. Your issue isn't your GPA so focus on getting a strong MCAT score to compensate (~33+.)

 

[ChrisMack390]

3.55 is passable if the rest of your application is good. Do well on the MCAT and plenty of research and volunteering.

 

[ImmunoLove]

GPA is fine. Address any other deficiencies in your application.

 

[P0ke]

It depends on what your science GPA is. If that 3.55 cGPA is fluffed up by a bunch of easy humanities classes, then you might need one if your sGPA < 3.3

 

[Erised Moon]

It depends on what your science GPA is. If that 3.55 cGPA is fluffed up by a bunch of easy humanities classes, then you might need one if your sGPA < 3.3

Yes unfortunately, my sGPA is probably around 3.3 or 3.4, so that is partly why I'm concerned about it as well. I was aiming to get a 33 on the MCAT to compensate for it, but even so I've heard that this is borderline for medical schools. *sighs*

 

[Erised Moon]

Thanks all for your replies! It's very helpful to have input as I'm relatively new to this whole process.

You need to take a step back and reassess your application. Your issue isn't your GPA so focus on getting a strong MCAT score to compensate (~33+.)

That's so surprising to hear! Everybody kept on telling me that I needed at least a 3.7 or above to be competitive for any medical school. Sure, they look at extracurriculars and volunteering, but I thought the basic "must" for med school was having a GPA higher than 3.6.

 

[ZedsDed]

Thanks all for your replies! It's very helpful to have input as I'm relatively new to this whole process.



That's so surprising to hear! Everybody kept on telling me that I needed at least a 3.7 or above to be competitive for any medical school. Sure, they look at extracurriculars and volunteering, but I thought the basic "must" for med school was having a GPA higher than 3.6.

@GrapesofRath can give you a much better breakdown than I can

 

[GrapesofRath]

@GrapesofRath can give you a much better breakdown than I can

OP actually made multiple threads about this. I responded in the other one

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...bacc-program-necessary.1183689/#post-17423159

 

[ChrisMack390]

Thanks all for your replies! It's very helpful to have input as I'm relatively new to this whole process.



That's so surprising to hear! Everybody kept on telling me that I needed at least a 3.7 or above to be competitive for any medical school. Sure, they look at extracurriculars and volunteering, but I thought the basic "must" for med school was having a GPA higher than 3.6.

Your GPA will not be the strength of your application, but if you make your MCAT and ECs strong, you will stand a good chance.

 

[Buck Winters]

Take the MCAT more seriously. Many people experience a drop from their practice scores when it comes to the real thing. A 30 paired with a 3.55 is OK (not great, by any means) and you will really struggle with a 30> MCAT.

 

[Afp0731]

I graduated with a very similar GPA due to negligent early semesters but made a 4.0 for my last few years. MCAT is 29 which is competitive in my state and I have very solid ECs/Recs. I have applied three times now and although I have interviewed each time with an acceptable listing, I have yet to be accepted. My initial thought after graduating was that I balanced out and would be able to push through without a masters or extra courses. Looking back, had I gone straight for the masters and left no hole uncovered, I believe it would have given me the extra bump I needed to get through. It is certainly possible but you still face the dilemma of attempting to stand out among other qualified students who made perfect grades from the get go. I would suggest to start taking courses if you can and hope for an acceptance before having to spend too much time and money. If there is one thing my experience has taught me, it is that hoping for the best without consistently striving to do your absolute best never pays off. Grades will always be one of the most important factors.

 

[Erised Moon]

Take the MCAT more seriously. Many people experience a drop from their practice scores when it comes to the real thing. A 30 paired with a 3.55 is OK (not great, by any means) and you will really struggle with a 30> MCAT.

No I agree with you, and I've heard the new test is ridiculously harder lol. I'm scoring a solid 30 right now even without having taken Physics, but I don't want to risk anything, so I'm planning to just ace the MCAT in one go after I take all my pre-reqs and upper-level classes by the end of the year. I'm busting ass right now, so hopefully I'll get a 33+.

 

[Erised Moon]

I graduated with a very similar GPA due to negligent early semesters but made a 4.0 for my last few years. MCAT is 29 which is competitive in my state and I have very solid ECs/Recs. I have applied three times now and although I have interviewed each time with an acceptable listing, I have yet to be accepted. My initial thought after graduating was that I balanced out and would be able to push through without a masters or extra courses. Looking back, had I gone straight for the masters and left no hole uncovered, I believe it would have given me the extra bump I needed to get through. It is certainly possible but you still face the dilemma of attempting to stand out among other qualified students who made perfect grades from the get go. I would suggest to start taking courses if you can and hope for an acceptance before having to spend too much time and money. If there is one thing my experience has taught me, it is that hoping for the best without consistently striving to do your absolute best never pays off. Grades will always be one of the most important factors.

I see. Unfortunately for me, my GPA saw a very slight downward trend, and I have yet to get working on my clinical hours (I will do them this summer). So I guess I'm in a less favorable position than you were. May I ask which state you're from and/or which schools you applied to? Although I'm living in CA at the moment, I plan to apply to schools on the east coast.

Generally, I've heard people say that these pre-med programs WILL give you that extra assurance of getting into medical school, so the thought of SMP is very tempting. But I am based in California, where apparently there aren't any/many SMP programs (only post-bacc apparently). Thus I would have to leave my lab behind, which would result in less strong LOR and extracurriculars, which would mean more deficiencies to cover up....yeesh. So many things to think about lol.

 

[Goro]

Asked and answered in WAMC.

Hi,

I graduated in 2015 from a top 15 liberal arts school with an undergrad GPA of 3.55 in Biology. I initially wanted to do research, but I decided during my senior year that I would enjoy doing medicine more as a career path, and now I'm looking how to boost my GPA for med school.

MCAT: haven't taken it yet, but practice scores are around 30, so I'm not too concerned there.

My low GPA is mainly due to a C- in Cell Biology II, a C+ in Biochemistry (both due to horrible teachers), and a B- in Analytical Chemistry. But I have A's in organic chemistry and advanced biology classes, so I don't know how med schools are going to think about that...?

I really really don't want to waste more than 1-2 years preparing for med school if I can help it, so I was thinking about simply taking several upper-level undergrad courses to boost my GPA, while shadowing/volunteering, doing research, extracurriculars....you know, the whole shebang. But everyone else seems to be considering post-bacc and SMP's (or even getting a master's) to boost their low GPA's. Am I in the wrong for thinking that I can simply take undergrad courses independently without being formally enrolled in a program to compensate for my low GPA?

The main reason why I'd rather not do SMP/post-bacc is that I'm currently working in a good lab where I wish to get a LOR from, but it will likely take up all my time for labwork if I were to enroll in any formal programs, or I may even have to leave the lab. And I hear these programs are dayuuum expensive, and mostly just accelerated versions of pre-med requirements anyway, which I don't really need as I've taken all the pre-reqs apart from Physics. But if most people say that my GPA needs these programs, I would have to make the big decision to do so soon.

Can anyone offer any words of advice? SMP, post-bacc, or just take independent undergrad courses for my 3.55 GPA? Thank you in advance!

 

[Afp0731]

No I agree with you, and I've heard the new test is ridiculously harder lol. I'm scoring a solid 30 right now even without having taken Physics, but I don't want to risk anything, so I'm planning to just ace the MCAT in one go after I take all my pre-reqs and upper-level classes by the end of the year. I'm busting ass right now, so hopefully I'll get a 33+.

I can vouch for Buck Winters on that idea. I was scoring consistently in the mid 30s on practice exams but the real thing was much more grueling. Passages were far longer, more detailed, and more critical to answering questions in the science sections. I was barely finishing the practice exams in time so the extra passage length in the real thing forced me to guess a few of the last Qs in each section. I really wish I had practiced with a more stringent time frame in each passage to accommodate for this. The new MCAT is apparently more difficult and a bit longer but because it is still relatively new, lower percentile score are considered competitive for the time being so that may play out to be an advantage. If you haven't been there yet, check out the 30 plus thread on this site. So much valuable advice in there!

I see. Unfortunately for me, my GPA saw a very slight downward trend, and I have yet to get working on my clinical hours (I will do them this summer). So I guess I'm in a less favorable position than you were. May I ask which state you're from and/or which schools you applied to? Although I'm living in CA at the moment, I plan to apply to schools on the east coast.

Generally, I've heard people say that these pre-med programs WILL give you that extra assurance of getting into medical school, so the thought of SMP is very tempting. But I am based in California, where apparently there aren't any/many SMP programs (only post-bacc apparently). Thus I would have to leave my lab behind, which would result in less strong LOR and extracurriculars, which would mean more deficiencies to cover up....yeesh. So many things to think about lol.

I am from Louisiana and I have been applying to LSU Shreveport and LSU New Orleans. LSU New Orleans has something called a 32-hour rule where they will consider 32 hours of post back science as your GPA if it better serves you than your undergrad GPA.
Trust me, I know the feeling. When I made the commitment to pursue medicine, I was halfway through college with three semesters under a 2.5(one was under a 2.0) and no clinical experience. Even my parents, the most supportive people on the planet, were advising me to seek other career options. There is always so much to do and so much grey area to stress over haha. No matter where you stand, there is always a way to rebrand yourself, however. You will be just fine. If you are really interested in some good post-grad work and aren't opposed to relocate, check out the one year masters programs at Tulane. They have been known to really help applicants who need to beef up undergrad GPAs. Going back to what Buck Masters said, killing your MCAT will be a very solid place to start. Best of luck to you my friend.

 

[AirplaneFruit]

No offense but why are you saying "top 15 liberal arts school" like it's an excuse for your GPA or will make up for your GPA when you can't even get near a 35 MCAT? MCAT's supposed to be used to control for easy/hard UGs.

 

[sunset57]

Agree with prior poster that practice test scores are frequently less than the actual MCAT.

I don't think EC's or research will overcome that GPA for the majority of allopathic schools.

I also wouldn't place too much hope on a "top 15 liberal arts school" having any impact.

May be worthwhile to consider SMP's where you take courses with medical students, such as Tufts (http://publichealth.tufts.edu/Admissions/MS-in-Biomedical-Sciences).

It's in a great city, and the medical students you'll be taking classes with are happy, collaborative and relatively mellow.

The program offers good advising as well as a guaranteed interview at Tufts if you maintain a certain GPA (not sure what it is).

Keep your GPA above 3.7, and you'll significantly improve your chances.

The downside is more debt and the risk that you won't do well.

All of the above assumes a MCAT equivalent score of 31 or lower.

Tough call, good luck!

 

[TallPreMed]

My low GPA is mainly due to a C- in Cell Biology II, a C+ in Biochemistry (both due to horrible teachers)

OP I would address this attitude/problem before any other issue in your application.


If an SDN member posts multiple threads in different forums, will they get a difference response?

 

[ConfusedChemist]

You need to take a step back and reassess your application. Your issue isn't your GPA so focus on getting a strong MCAT score to compensate (~33+.)

It's not exactly going to help them in any way.....so I'd say that yes, it is an issue.
https://www.aamc.org/download/321508/data/factstablea23.pdf

33% acceptance vs 70% for a 3.8. I'd say it isn't good

 

[ZedsDed]

It's not exactly going to help them in any way.....so I'd say that yes, it is an issue.
https://www.aamc.org/download/321508/data/factstablea23.pdf

33% acceptance vs 70% for a 3.8. I'd say it isn't good

You might wanna take another look at that table.

 

[ConfusedChemist]

You might wanna take another look at that table.

Either way....a 3.5 is still LOW. It's below average for any MD school, so I don't see the point in falsely claiming that it'll give them a great shot at acceptance

 

[ZedsDed]

Either way....a 3.5 is still LOW. It's below average for any MD school, so I don't see the point in falsely claiming that it'll give them a great shot at acceptance

I didn't say he had a "great" shot. I said his GPA was fine. Historically 60% of applicants with a 3.5/33 get in somewhere... so I don't know what you're trying to get at.

 

[ConfusedChemist]

I didn't say he had a "great" shot. I said his GPA was fine. Historically 60% of applicants with a 3.5/33 get in somewhere... so I don't know what you're trying to get at.

That it would likely help them to do a post-bacc/smp, particularly if their sGPA is low.

To be fair, I am from Canada where a 3.5 would have a 0.0% chance at getting an interview, so it's hard for me to believe this can be considered 'good' by MD standards.

 

[Petrichor1]

That it would likely help them to do a post-bacc/smp, particularly if their sGPA is low.

To be fair, I am from Canada where a 3.5 would have a 0.0% chance at getting an interview, so it's hard for me to believe this can be considered 'good' by MD standards.

Dude Canadian schools are cray for gpas (too much demand for student admissions but so little seats), plus they have flexible GPA policies like discounting certain semesters if you prolong studies to better it; we don't have that here in us. If your math inclined,that 3.5 is close to an a-.

 

[GrapesofRath]

That it would likely help them to do a post-bacc/smp, particularly if their sGPA is low.

To be fair, I am from Canada where a 3.5 would have a 0.0% chance at getting an interview, so it's hard for me to believe this can be considered 'good' by MD standards.

This is a pretty clear cut case. Do well on the MCAT, and the OP has a pretty reasonable shot of getting into a US MD school assuming the sGPA isnt much lower. There's nothing to argue here; there are years and years of data to show this.

Arguing to do an SMP or something like that actually is a bad idea because it takes away valuable time that they could be using to improve their ECs which will be much more important in deciding their fate.

It's not a matter of "good" or not good. There's no value in a school nitpicking a 3.55 vs 3.7(which is the US MD average). Schools in the US dont work like Canada. There is more emphasis on ECs, particularly service and clinical experience. There isnt a fetish with statistics like how schools in Canada will screen out a "sub 130" or even "sub 128" in CARs. Likewise, Canadian schools are infamous for inflating their statistics by only counting say "your 2 best years of UG in their GPA calculations" or letting people take the MCAT 4-5X without penalty and using their highest scores. It's a much different game of admission in the US where statistics arent looked at so artificially; give advice appropriately knowing that.

 

[ConfusedChemist]

Dude Canadian schools are cray for gpas (too much demand for student admissions but so little seats), plus they have flexible GPA policies like discounting certain semesters if you prolong studies to better it; we don't have that here in us. If your math inclined,that 3.5 is close to an a-.

Haha a 3.7 is an A-, not a 3.5

And those GPA policies? They are at only a few schools. And regardless, would most people here have a 3.95 with 1 term dropped? Didn't think so. Plus, it ONLY applies if you have taken 5 courses (>15 credits) EVERY term, with >10 credits at/above your current year. Aka you can't take into spanish in senior year and get a term dropped.

The average for UofToronto was a 3.96/4 last year. Only if you have always, always taken a heavy course load they will drop 3 credits. Most people with a 3.7GPA don't jump to a 3.96 with 3 courses dropped.

And the school that will drop a full year? Provided >15 credits per term.....you need a MINIMUM of 130CARS. Yep, a 130 is the cutoff

 

[Petrichor1]

Haha a 3.7 is an A-, not a 3.5

And those GPA policies? They are at only a few schools. And regardless, would most people here have a 3.95 with 1 term dropped? Didn't think so. Plus, it ONLY applies if you have taken 5 courses (>15 credits) EVERY term, with >10 credits at/above your current year. Aka you can't take into spanish in senior year and get a term dropped.

The average for UofToronto was a 3.96/4 last year. Only if you have always, always taken a heavy course load they will drop 3 credits. Most people with a 3.7GPA don't jump to a 3.96 with 3 courses dropped.

And the school that will drop a full year? Provided >15 credits per term.....you need a MINIMUM of 130CARS. Yep, a 130 is the cutoff

A 3.3 is b+ and a 3.7 is a-, you do the math. Anyways, I certainly think that grapes of Rath has the point I was trying to explain. Oh and a few years ago, Canadian med schools didn't even require a mcat out of its applicants. I argue that there is certainly more pressure in the us side bc of its holistic review. The fact that Canadian schools are moving towards this is evident of our more rigorous system.

 

[ConfusedChemist]

A 3.3 is b+ and a 3.7 is a-, you do the math. Anyways, I certainly think that grapes of Rath has the point I was trying to explain. Oh and a few years ago, Canadian med schools didn't even require a mcat out of its applicants. I argue that there is certainly more pressure in the us side bc of its holistic review. The fact that Canadian schools are moving towards this is evident of our more rigorous system.

I give up......the US's more 'rigorous' system......I'm sorry but schools that accept people with sub-30 MCATs and 3.5 GPAs are not 'rigorous' by any sense of the word

You want to know what the alternative option for people who can't get into Canadian med schools is? Go to the US! Why? Because it's LESS rigorous. University advisors reccomend the US to Canadians who aren't able to get in here because their grades/MCATs are too low

But, I'm done here. And 'Canadian schools didn't require the MCAT a few years ago???' That's TOTALLY false. You clearly know absoluetly nothing about the Canadian process. the only schools that don't require it are FRENCH, because, you know, Quebec is an officially french province and the MCAT isn't offered in french

 

[GrapesofRath]

Im not sure what exactly caused this thread to become a pissing match where both countries trash the admission process of the other country and argue how "rigorous" each others are.

The whole point of what I was saying is it works differently for both countries. 3.55/33 are solid stats in the US. Maybe they arent in Canada. Likewise, maybe somebody with no real ECs outside of some research is all that amazing a candidate in the US with a 4.0/35 like they might be in Canada, or someone who needed 4X attempts to hit 35 on the MCAT might not be as good a candidate in the US as in Canada. Each country has different systems that emphasize different things. Dont carry expectations of how Canadian admission works and assume it willl be how it works in the US system. The reverse is also true. That is all.

 

[Petrichor1]

Im not sure what exactly caused this thread to become a pissing match where both countries trash the admission process of the other country and argue how "rigorous" each others are.

The whole point of what I was saying is it works differently for both countries. 3.55/33 are solid stats in the US. Maybe they arent in Canada. Likewise, maybe somebody with no real ECs outside of some research is all that amazing a candidate in the US with a 4.0/35 like they might be in Canada, or someone who needed 4X attempts to hit 35 on the MCAT might not be as good a candidate in the US as in Canada. Each country has different systems that emphasize different things. Dont carry expectations of how Canadian admission works and assume it willl be how it works in the US system. The reverse is also true. That is all.

I think the issue here is ConfusedChemist is a canadian providing postbacc encouragement to a person who is otherwise a good candidate for US schools. Canadian schools work like schools outside of US; they basically check off stats. This isn't the case here in the US and clearly things are differently looked at here. A 3.5 gpa is fine as long as the MCAT is among the good percentiles.

To quote this link: http://physical.utoronto.ca/docs/ug-docs/ugcgmedicine.pdf
"The following medical schools require the full MCAT: Queen's University, University of Toronto, and the University of Western Ontario. McMaster requires the Verbal Reasoning section of the MCAT."

Two different country systems just adapting to the techniques of one another for a more holistic review. A school is no worse if they accept some sub-par candidate either...you're probably dissing all our DO schools in the process...#confusedmuch lol.

 

[Erised Moon]

I can vouch for Buck Winters on that idea. I was scoring consistently in the mid 30s on practice exams but the real thing was much more grueling. Passages were far longer, more detailed, and more critical to answering questions in the science sections. I was barely finishing the practice exams in time so the extra passage length in the real thing forced me to guess a few of the last Qs in each section. I really wish I had practiced with a more stringent time frame in each passage to accommodate for this. The new MCAT is apparently more difficult and a bit longer but because it is still relatively new, lower percentile score are considered competitive for the time being so that may play out to be an advantage. If you haven't been there yet, check out the 30 plus thread on this site. So much valuable advice in there!

I am from Louisiana and I have been applying to LSU Shreveport and LSU New Orleans. LSU New Orleans has something called a 32-hour rule where they will consider 32 hours of post back science as your GPA if it better serves you than your undergrad GPA.
Trust me, I know the feeling. When I made the commitment to pursue medicine, I was halfway through college with three semesters under a 2.5(one was under a 2.0) and no clinical experience. Even my parents, the most supportive people on the planet, were advising me to seek other career options. There is always so much to do and so much grey area to stress over haha. No matter where you stand, there is always a way to rebrand yourself, however. You will be just fine. If you are really interested in some good post-grad work and aren't opposed to relocate, check out the one year masters programs at Tulane. They have been known to really help applicants who need to beef up undergrad GPAs. Going back to what Buck Masters said, killing your MCAT will be a very solid place to start. Best of luck to you my friend.

Thanks much! Your advice is very encouraging since everyone I know is telling me to change my career options, and there are a lot of cynical people on SDN lol. But hey, if you really want to be a doctor, you stick with it, and that's what I intend to So again, thanks!