3-year med school as a way to decrease physician debt...

[BestDoctorEver]

I just started med school, but I already noticed that there are a bunch of fluffy stuff in the curriculum that should not be there. I also talked to a MS-IV at my school who is about to start residency and he told me the whole fourth year was mostly spent traveling for residency interviews. We were also talking about the crushing debt one will have after residency and we concluded that our curriculum can be reduced to 3 years if they take out some the fluffy stuff and better design the curriculum. And it won't put a big burden on the students... My school overall COA is about 230k and if the curriculum was 3 years, it would be around 170k... I think many who might want to do primary care won't be so push off by it if they can graduate with <2ook in debt... Am I completely wrong in my assessment?

Do others think that curriculum can be done in 3 years without putting too much burden on the students?

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[Brain Bucket]

I just started med school, but I already noticed that there are a bunch of fluffy stuff in the curriculum that should not be there. I also talked to a MS-IV at my school who is about to start residency and he told me the whole fourth year was mostly spent traveling for residency interviews. We were also talking about the crushing debt one will have after residency and we concluded that our curriculum can be reduced to 3 years if they take out some the fluffy stuff and better design the curriculum. And it won't put a big burden on the students... My school overall COA is about 230k and if the curriculum was 3 years, it would be around 170k... I think many who might want to do primary care won't be so push off by it if they can graduate with <2ook in debt... Am I completely wrong in my assessment?

Do others think that curriculum can be done in 3 years without putting too much burden on the students?

Good thing you noticed. You should go ahead and make other people aware of the problem. Often. People sometimes forget.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Good thing you noticed. You should go ahead and make other people aware of the problem. Often. People sometimes forget.

Was that sarcasm? Cant' tell...

 

[DermViser]

Spoiler alert: ALL schools have "fluffy" stuff in their curriculum. Much of it is LCME-mandated.

#2 - The 4th year is important for many esp. if they're going into fields that aren't in MS-3 clerkships: Derm, Rads, Anesthesia, Ophtho, Ortho, PM&R, Path, Neurosurgery, Urology, etc.

The ones that have 3 year med school pathways: Texas Tech, Mercer, etc. are for primary care.

 

[Brain Bucket]

Was that sarcasm? Cant' tell...

I actually tried to make it rather obvious.

 

[Mad Jack]

My bet is that if all schools went to 3 years, tuition would increase substantially, resulting in people paying the same amount but feeling better about graduating faster, while schools administrators make out like bandits from the massively increased revenue.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

@DermViser... Can they better design the curriculum in some way without putting much burden for the ones who are going into these specialties?

 

[Priapism4tooLong]

I just started med school, but I already noticed that there are a bunch of fluffy stuff in the curriculum that should not be there. I also talked to a MS-IV at my school who is about to start residency and he told me the whole fourth year was mostly spent traveling for residency interviews. We were also talking about the crushing debt one will have after residency and we concluded that our curriculum can be reduced to 3 years if they take out some the fluffy stuff and better design the curriculum. And it won't put a big burden on the students... My school overall COA is about 230k and if the curriculum was 3 years, it would be around 170k... I think many who might want to do primary care won't be so push off by it if they can graduate with <2ook in debt... Am I completely wrong in my assessment?

Do others think that curriculum can be done in 3 years without putting too much burden on the students?

so finish in 3 years and the year after do only interviews? or do you mean do interviews + 3rd year stuff?

 

[Brain Bucket]

My bet is that if all schools went to 3 years, tuition would increase substantially, resulting in people paying the same amount but feeling better about graduating faster, while schools administrators make out like bandits from the massively increased revenue.

Here I was, thinking med school should be at least 5, if not 6 years.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

My bet is that if all schools went to 3 years, tuition would increase substantially, resulting in people paying the same amount but feeling better about graduating faster, while schools administrators make out like bandits from the massively increased revenue.

We, as students, always get the other end of the stick no matter what...

 

[DermViser]

@DermViser... Can they better design the curriculum in some without putting much burden for the ones who are going into these specialties?

Well many med schools have:
-- shaving the basic science curriculum from 2 years down to 1 or 1.5 years.
-- or if it stays 2 years, then allowing you to have one elective in MS-3 year.
-- incorporating a research year.

 

[DermViser]

so finish in 3 years and the year after do only interviews? or do you mean do interviews + 3rd year stuff?

Finish in 3 years and move straight on to primary care residency.

 

[Priapism4tooLong]

I feel like most medstudents come out of medschool knowing very little on how to actually treat patients. In my opinion medschool should be extended and undergrad should be gotten rid of (kind of like the rest of the world).

i agree with this to a certain extent as well, but that would make high school pretty much determine the rest of your life.. lol too much pressure.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

I feel like most medstudents come out of medschool knowing very little on how to actually treat patients. In my opinion medschool should be extended and undergrad should be gotten rid of (kind of like the rest of the world).

I kind of agree with that... I think they should require just the important prereqs only--not along with a BA/BS...

 

[BestDoctorEver]

i agree with this to a certain extent as well, but that would make high school pretty much determine the rest of your life.. lol too much pressure.

Why can't they require just the prereqs just like pharm school? I think that will take away that HS argument...

 

[Priapism4tooLong]

Finish in 3 years and move straight on to primary care residency.

Sounds like an intense course, im guessing they do all the core rotations starting middle of second year?

 

[Priapism4tooLong]

Why can't they require just the prereqs just like pharm school? I think that will take away that HS argument...

Yeah thats true. But you know how med school likes well "rounded" people. They like to see people from all majors.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

My cousin who did med school in Argentina (6-year program) right out of high school was amazed to see the stuff I was studying for the MCAT. He looked at the AAMC outline and told me that was basically his first two year of med school+ Anatomy/histology and a little more emphasis in biochem and physiology ... And he is a practicing IM physician here... After he told me that, I could not help to wonder how did he pass Step 1... Was step 1 easier back then (like early 2000)?

 

[Brain Bucket]

You trolling?

 

[BestDoctorEver]

You trolling?

I am not... That was what he told me... Maybe he was blowing smoke.

 

[Brain Bucket]

I am not... That was what he told me... Maybe he was blowing smoke.

He wasn't. Even if they just twiddled their thumbs the first two years, that still leaves 4 years.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

He wasn't. Even if they just twiddled their thumbs the first two years, that still leaves 4 years.

http://www.unc.edu.ar/facultades/facultad-de-ciencias-medicas/medicina-02


That is the school he went to... Obviously the classes are listed in Spanish...

 

[Brain Bucket]

http://www.unc.edu.ar/facultades/facultad-de-ciencias-medicas/medicina-02


That is the school he went to... Obviously the classes are listed in Spanish...

Seems perfectly fine.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Seems perfectly fine.

Why did you think I was trolling then? I guess my cousin was right...

 

[Brain Bucket]

 

[bhog]

There are a couple of schools in Canada - University of Calgary and McMaster University that have 3-year programs that are not specifically geared for primary care. The programs run year-round, so the same amount of training occurs, just over a more compressed timeline. I thought pretty seriously about those programs, since it would be nice to graduate at 27 instead of 28, but I think that for me, the extra year is worth having a bit more time to explore all my options. I also think that having the first two summers off is going to be helpful for me in terms of mental health and avoiding burnout.

Folks who already have a pretty good grasp on what they want to do might not mind starting their clinical stuff after 18 months, though.

 

[DermViser]

There are a couple of schools in Canada - University of Calgary and McMaster University that have 3-year programs that are not specifically geared for primary care. The programs run year-round, so the same amount of training occurs, just over a more compressed timeline. I thought pretty seriously about those programs, since it would be nice to graduate at 27 instead of 28, but I think that for me, the extra year is worth having a bit more time to explore all my options. I also think that having the first two summers off is going to be helpful for me in terms of mental health and avoiding burnout.

Folks who already have a pretty good grasp on what they want to do might not mind starting their clinical stuff after 18 months, though.

Med school as it is now, burns people out. I think it is absolutely ridiculous the schools that compress all of their basic sciences into 1 year. That does such a disservice to their students, IMHO.

 

[drcrispmd]

What do you consider fluff in med school? I'm just curious.

 

[DermViser]

What do you consider fluff in med school? I'm just curious.

Likely anything that is not basic science that relates to Step 1: i.e. medical ethics, public health, social determinants of disease, professionalism, etc.

 

[Mass Effect]

I just started med school, but I already noticed that there are a bunch of fluffy stuff in the curriculum that should not be there

How could you possibly know this if you just started med school?

I also talked to a MS-IV at my school who is about to start residency and he told me the whole fourth year was mostly spent traveling for residency interviews

Yes, and this is necessary, especially for those going into non-core specialties as @DermViser mentioned.

Do others think that curriculum can be done in 3 years without putting too much burden on the students?

No. For the students who know they want to do primary care, there are three-year programs available. For everyone else, I don't see a way around the four-year curriculum.

 

[Evil_Abed]

I just started med school, but I already noticed that there are a bunch of fluffy stuff in the curriculum that should not be there.

Like several others have mentioned, how do you know there's a "bunch of fluffy stuff in the curriculum" if you just started med school? You don't really have enough experience yet to say what's fluff vs. not, what's "high-yield" vs. "low-yield," etc. Work hard to learn and understand everything they throw your way. You'll develop a sense of what's fluff and what's not as the year goes by. Right now, you can't really make that call.

 

[PL198]

There's still a decent amount of actual fluff. I agree that ethics is necessary, but my school literally had a class where I took the exams dry. They were literally just common sense.

 

[circulus vitios]

I just started med school, but I already noticed that there are a bunch of fluffy stuff in the curriculum that should not be there. I also talked to a MS-IV at my school who is about to start residency and he told me the whole fourth year was mostly spent traveling for residency interviews. We were also talking about the crushing debt one will have after residency and we concluded that our curriculum can be reduced to 3 years if they take out some the fluffy stuff and better design the curriculum. And it won't put a big burden on the students... My school overall COA is about 230k and if the curriculum was 3 years, it would be around 170k... I think many who might want to do primary care won't be so push off by it if they can graduate with <2ook in debt... Am I completely wrong in my assessment?

Do others think that curriculum can be done in 3 years without putting too much burden on the students?

Schools would just jack up the COA by 33% if they ever went to a 3 year model.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

No. For the students who know they want to do primary care, there are three-year programs available. For everyone else, I don't see a way around the four-year curriculum.

I don't think there are enough 3-year primary care programs for these students... I have heard of 4-5 programs, maybe there are more. I guess schools can make the fourth year optional for students who are not going into specialties... I don't know how that would work though.

To be honest, I don't know the answers. Maybe there is a better way to design the med school curriculum and make it three years without putting too much burden on students...

Maybe there are stuff that are not that important in biochem/histo etc... for a med student to know... Like I said above, my cousin, who is an internist did his med school (6-year program after HS in Argentina) saw the stuff I was studying for the MCAT told me these were the same stuff he did in his first 2 years of med school plus anatomy and a little more emphasis in biochem, physiology and histology. One poster above challenged me because he thought that was impossible and I pulled the curriculum where my cousin went to school, and it turned out that my cousin was correct. Below is a link of the curriculum...

http://www.unc.edu.ar/facultades/facultad-de-ciencias-medicas/medicina-02

You know what is astonishing, 1-year internship is included within that 6-year. Something that take US students 8 years to do, other countries do it in 5 and these people from these countries (like my cousin) are practicing medicine here... And people are telling me the system is not inefficient as it is...

 

[sinombre]

I just started med school, but I already noticed that there are a bunch of fluffy stuff in the curriculum that should not be there.

First time I've actually lol'd from reading SDN in quite some time. This quote belongs in a signature.

 

[Siggy]

I feel like most medstudents come out of medschool knowing very little on how to actually treat patients.

I think the problem is that med students learn the very basics of how to treat patients (diagnose this disease, give this drug, etc), but you don't, and can't, learn the ins and outs of actually treating patients until you're responsible for carrying patients as an intern and actually writing orders.

 

[colbgw02]

There's still a decent amount of actual fluff. I agree that ethics is necessary, but my school literally had a class where I took the exams dry. They were literally just common sense.

Were there many people taking the exams literally wet? That seems like it would be uncomfortable and a distraction.

 

[Wordead]

Were there many people taking the exams literally wet? That seems like it would be uncomfortable and a distraction.

Depends on the subject. Pathophys was always a panty-wetting test.

 

[Psai]

Depends on the subject. Pathophys was always a panty-wetting test.

You should have brought a spare

 

[colbgw02]

Depends on the subject. Pathophys was always a panty-wetting test.

Benzos, man. Benzos.

 

[Wordead]

You should have brought a spare

It was a joke. I free balled it to all tests.

 

[PL198]

Alright you all know what I meant damn it

 

[Mass Effect]

I don't think there are enough 3-year primary care programs for these students... I have heard of 4-5 programs, maybe there are more. I guess schools can make the fourth year optional for students who are not going into specialties... I don't know how that would work though.

To be honest, I don't know the answers. Maybe there is a better way to design the med school curriculum and make it three years without putting too much burden on students...

Maybe there are stuff that are not that important in biochem/histo etc... for a med student to know... Like I said above, my cousin, who is an internist did his med school (6-year program after HS in Argentina) saw the stuff I was studying for the MCAT told me these were the same stuff he did in his first 2 years of med school plus anatomy and a little more emphasis in biochem, physiology and histology. One poster above challenged me because he thought that was impossible and I pulled the curriculum where my cousin went to school, and it turned out that my cousin was correct. Below is a link of the curriculum...

http://www.unc.edu.ar/facultades/facultad-de-ciencias-medicas/medicina-02

You know what is astonishing, 1-year internship is included within that 6-year. Something that take US students 8 years to do, other countries do it in 5 and these people from these countries (like my cousin) are practicing medicine here... And people are telling me the system is not inefficient as it is...

If the pre-clinical curriculum is the same as MCAT material at any school, I would seriously question the knowledge of students at that school. You're barely a first year. Perhaps you want to take some time to actually, you know, learn medicine before you decide the U.S. medical system is inadequate? Just a thought.

 

[Silent Cool]

How about,

"Ending federal subsidies of higher education" as a way to decrease student debt.

 

[BurghStudent]

While we're at it, can't we make pre-med/college 3 years? How about those general education requirements (that justify the 100s of adjunct professorships you're tuition dollars pay for) amiright?

 

[BestDoctorEver]

If the pre-clinical curriculum is the same as MCAT material at any school, I would seriously question the knowledge of students at that school. You're barely a first year. Perhaps you want to take some time to actually, you know, learn medicine before you decide the U.S. medical system is inadequate? Just a thought.

I never said the system was inadequate (perhaps inefficient)... Did you take a look at the link? These people did the whole med school (without internship) in 5 years and they are practicing here....

 

[graviton]

It would make more sense to shave 2 years off of undergrad. Make the entry requirements an associates degree plus the prerequisites. If you won't get into med school, you could still go on to do a full bachelor's.

I'm going to a six year program in Europe and here we took the prerequisites in high school.

 

[DermViser]

First time I've actually lol'd from reading SDN in quite some time. This quote belongs in a signature.

You didn't get the memo? Now even premeds can decide what parts of med school are "fluff" or "homo" (not the OP) and which parts are important. Always amazing to me the level of hubris.

 

[Brain Bucket]

It was a joke. I free balled it to all tests.

Is there another way?

You didn't get the memo? Now even premeds can decide what parts of med school are "fluff" or "homo" (not the OP) and which parts are important. Always amazing to me the level of hubris.

Dude, it's ubiquitous. It's late in the interview season here, and one of classmates' cousin came to interview about a month ago. My classmate sent him to me to ask about which books to buy and how to get started properly on the first year. First, he insisted on speaking in the local language, even though he was born and brought up in London, then, for every bit of advice I gave, he either said, 'yeah, that's right/I know', or contradicted me. That kid isn't going to pass the first semester.

 

[PL198]

Is there another way?


Dude, it's ubiquitous. It's late in the interview season here, and one of classmates' cousin came to interview about a month ago. My classmate sent him to me to ask about which books to buy and how to get started properly on the first year. First, he insisted on speaking in the local language, even though he was born and brought up in London, then, for every bit of advice I gave, he either said, 'yeah, that's right/I know', or contradicted me. That kid isn't going to pass the first semester.

Not your fault, let him wallow in the thousands of dollars of paperweights he buys from the " required reading list." I always love that whole concept. If I don't buy the book, are you going to put me into time out? Is it unprofessional?