3-year med school as a way to decrease physician debt...

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calvnandhobbs68 said:
And so the real problem is reduced responsibility for everybody, from fellows down to medical students. Everyone is so concerned about liability that medical students are lucky if they're even allowed to write a real note in the EMR on a patient, even on their sub-I. Back in the day, med students were doing intern level **** writing admission orders, doing minor surgeries with attendings and whatnot. You're absolutely right, it's very difficult to figure out the ins and outs and keep track of everything that's going on with a patient unless you're the one writing the orders and getting paged about everything. As we all know after doing rotations, half the battle is just figuring out how to do stuff and if you're not even allowed to do it, it gets pretty difficult.
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That... and it's hard to follow patients when you aren't fielding the nursing calls from the patient (so you don't know when things change) or when you're only writing notes a couple of times a week (q4 medicine call where you don't write progress notes on call day, post call day, and weekends are off when not on call). On the other hand, there's already been an M&M generated at my hospital from an intern. To be honest, if I was in his spot, it could have easily been an M&M that I had generated.
 
Siggy said:
That... and it's hard to follow patients when you aren't fielding the nursing calls from the patient (so you don't know when things change) or when you're only writing notes a couple of times a week (q4 medicine call where you don't write progress notes on call day, post call day, and weekends are off when not on call). On the other hand, there's already been an M&M generated at my hospital from an intern. To be honest, if I was in his spot, it could have easily been an M&M that I had generated.
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Pt. died bc of the intern?!?!
 
DermViser said:
You didn't get the memo? Now even premeds can decide what parts of med school are "fluff" or "homo" (not the OP) and which parts are important. Always amazing to me the level of hubris.
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That's why he's the "BestDoctorEver" as an incoming MS1.
 
DermViser said:
Bc usually he/she has an upper level monitoring like a hawk.
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Meh. Even with an overly monitorial resident, there are hundreds of things an intern could do (or not do) that could harm a patient before anyone even knows about it.
 
DermViser said:
You didn't get the memo? Now even premeds can decide what parts of med school are "fluff" or "homo" (not the OP) and which parts are important. Always amazing to me the level of hubris.
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Some medical schools have required projects that are ******ed and worthless. It's kind of like the pre-med curriculum. You don't need to sit through undergrad psychology and sociology to realize that it's a complete waste of time.
 
circulus vitios said:
Some medical schools have required projects that are ******ed and worthless. It's kind of like the pre-med curriculum. You don't need to sit through undergrad psychology and sociology to realize that it's a complete waste of time.
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I agree if that's what the OP was referring to. I thought he was more referring to courses in the curriculum. That being said the point of those projects is more to assess your ability to work with others. It's a way to start measuring "professionalism" in the early years vs. previously when MS-1/MS-2 were mainly multiple choice exams, "professionalism" issues were largely hidden.
 
circulus vitios said:
Some medical schools have required projects that are ******ed and worthless. It's kind of like the pre-med curriculum. You don't need to sit through undergrad psychology and sociology to realize that it's a complete waste of time.
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I'm reaaalllyyy hoping you don't have a professional job, especially in the medical field, and still use the word "******ed" in that context. The connotation of that word is just so inappropriate.
 
calvnandhobbs68 said:
And so the real problem is reduced responsibility for everybody, from fellows down to medical students. Everyone is so concerned about liability that medical students are lucky if they're even allowed to write a real note in the EMR on a patient, even on their sub-I. Back in the day, med students were doing intern level **** writing admission orders, doing minor surgeries with attendings and whatnot. You're absolutely right, it's very difficult to figure out the ins and outs and keep track of everything that's going on with a patient unless you're the one writing the orders and getting paged about everything. As we all know after doing rotations, half the battle is just figuring out how to do stuff and if you're not even allowed to do it, it gets pretty difficult.
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Actually, what you should be doing on rotations is learning medicine, even if it means writing your own notes (and orders) on your own paper. Being upset that as a med student you can't log into the EMR to order things makes me think you have no idea the level and depth of things you don't know.

circulus vitios said:
Some medical schools have required projects that are ******ed and worthless. It's kind of like the pre-med curriculum. You don't need to sit through undergrad psychology and sociology to realize that it's a complete waste of time.
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It's been my experience that most of the time, those who believe that psychology and sociology are a "complete waste of time" are those who need the lessons learned in those subjects the most.
 
Brain Bucket said:
Here I was, thinking med school should be at least 5, if not 6 years.
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Come on man, medicine already requires the most upfront time and monetary investment out of any career in the world. Let's not make it require even more.
 
DermViser said:
You didn't get the memo? Now even premeds can decide what parts of med school are "fluff" or "homo" (not the OP) and which parts are important. Always amazing to me the level of hubris.
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I thought we were friends, why you gotta make a dis like that mang?
 
Mass Effect said:
It's been my experience that most of the time, those who believe that psychology and sociology are a "complete waste of time" are those who need the lessons learned in those subjects the most.
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3 credits each of sociology and psychology aren't going to make heartless bastards into compassionate, culturally-sensitive doctors.
 
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PL198 said:
Not your fault, let him wallow in the thousands of dollars of paperweights he buys from the " required reading list." I always love that whole concept. If I don't buy the book, are you going to put me into time out? Is it unprofessional?
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I take pride in never having bought a single textbook for medical school.
 
sinombre said:
Well, do you still talk that way? If I were your friend and you used words like "homo" in conversation I would call you out on it, as most reasonable people would.
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Actually my friends encouraged me to use "homo" in my vocabulary.
 
DermViser said:
I agree if that's what the OP was referring to. I thought he was more referring to courses in the curriculum. That being said the point of those projects is more to assess your ability to work with others. It's a way to start measuring "professionalism" in the early years vs. previously when MS-1/MS-2 were mainly multiple choice exams, "professionalism" issues were largely hidden.
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I was mostly referring to professionalism/ethics courses etc... I am writing a 3-page paper right now about professionalism... really!
 
BestDoctorEver said:
I was mostly referring to professionalism/ethics courses etc... I am writing a 3-page paper right now about professionalism... really!
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That's fair, but cutting that stuff out of the curriculum probably wouldn't make medical school much shorter. It's not as if you spend an entire year's worth of time writing reflection essays.
 
Arkangeloid said:
Actually my friends encouraged me to use "homo" in my vocabulary.
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Get better friends.

BestDoctorEver said:
I was mostly referring to professionalism/ethics courses etc... I am writing a 3-page paper right now about professionalism... really!
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Like psychology and sociology, it's been my experience that most of the people who complain about ethics courses are the ones who could benefit from them the most.
 
calvnandhobbs68 said:
Ah the good old "you don't know what you don't know" argument. Got it homie, save that spiel for the NPs. Medical students can practice getting familiar with the EMR, typing notes into the EMR and writing/pending orders without causing any trouble, we all know it's for liability. You know, practicing things that will help them in the JOB they have after medical school. We can handle doing both and I can be annoyed about it while learning medicine at the same time.
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Who said you can't practice getting familiar with the EMR (although it's probably a waste of time unless your hospital is using EPIC or some other very well-known and/or popular EMR since when you get into residency, you'll have to learn their EMR all over again)? The point is that not being allowed to write in the EMR is no excuse for not writing notes, not writing orders, and not knowing your patients. You can still do all that, even if you can't do it in the EMR. Med students should be able to write H&Ps and progress notes in the EMR (with a co-sign), but they shouldn't have access to writing/pending orders.
 
BestDoctorEver said:
I was mostly referring to professionalism/ethics courses etc... I am writing a 3-page paper right now about professionalism... really!
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Yeah, like who needs ethics? The reality is, it's in the curriculum and required by LCME because some dumb@ss/jack@ss doctor did the things they're telling you not to do.
 
DermViser said:
The ones that have 3 year med school pathways: Texas Tech, Mercer, etc. are for primary care.
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Though this thread has taken a somewhat different direction, it's worth noting that NYU has their new 3yr program for any specialty. I'm curious if other schools will follow that model if it ends up successful.
 
Amba said:
Though this thread has taken a somewhat different direction, it's worth noting that NYU has their new 3yr program for any specialty. I'm curious if other schools will follow that model if it ends up successful.
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Suicide in physicians and medical students is already a huge problem. Want to know a way to increase that? Move to 3 yr programs.
 
Amba said:
Though this thread has taken a somewhat different direction, it's worth noting that NYU has their new 3yr program for any specialty. I'm curious if other schools will follow that model if it ends up successful.
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Yeah but they end up in NYU residencies. It's great if you want to stay in New York City and their programs are generally solid but if you're from Cali and want to go back, it's that much harder.
 
Psai said:
Yeah but they end up in NYU residencies. It's great if you want to stay in New York City and their programs are generally solid but if you're from Cali and want to go back, it's that much harder.
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Amba said:
Though this thread has taken a somewhat different direction, it's worth noting that NYU has their new 3yr program for any specialty. I'm curious if other schools will follow that model if it ends up successful.
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Yes, and in that program students are limited as to what fields they can be given dibs at. Take a wild guess which specialty gets the most spots.

http://school.med.nyu.edu/system/files/3YMD_Webinar.pdf (Slide #8)
 
SicEmBears said:
I'm reaaalllyyy hoping you don't have a professional job, especially in the medical field, and still use the word "******ed" in that context. The connotation of that word is just so inappropriate.
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upload_2014-7-1_14-36-17.png
 
xffan624 said:
Yeah, like who needs ethics? The reality is, it's in the curriculum and required by LCME because some dumb@ss/jack@ss doctor did the things they're telling you not to do.
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Pretty much. Our ethics course consisted of lectures by an attorney who was also an M.D., and seminars by people from different specialties who went over the most common reasons physicians were sued in their fields. Kids in my class who didn't have family in medicine learnt a lot.
 
xffan624 said:
Yeah, like who needs ethics? The reality is, it's in the curriculum and required by LCME because some dumb@ss/jack@ss doctor did the things they're telling you not to do.
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A few classes won't override what is presumably an inborn ethical defect. If someone needs to be told that the Tuskegee syphilis experiment (or whatever) is bad, then they're beyond saving.
 
circulus vitios said:
A few classes won't override what is presumably an inborn ethical defect. If someone needs to be told that the Tuskegee syphilis experiment (or whatever) is bad, then they're beyond saving.
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Not every case is as clear cut as that.

Regardless, the doctors in charge of the experiments were likely not evil men. They probably thought they were doing good for many at the expense of the few. You'd be surprised how many straight utilitarians there are still in your class.
 
I mean I wouldn't say that being a straight utilitarian is wrong, and there are certainly numerous situations in which I feel a utilitarian approach is the way to come up with action. I think the point of most of these classes are to get you aware of these issues. If we didn't have ethics class, students would just think medicine is like solving problems and if you get them right you're a good doctor and if you get them wrong you're a bad one. Medical students have very little common sense and it's pretty clear to me they wouldn't even consider a lot of issues when dealing with a case if they had no prior exposure to those issues or concepts.
 
circulus vitios said:
A few classes won't override what is presumably an inborn ethical defect. If someone needs to be told that the Tuskegee syphilis experiment (or whatever) is bad, then they're beyond saving.
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Wow. It's like you make up your mind before analyzing something and then rationalize your opinion after. You seem to be implying that you believe the point of ethics lectures in medical school is to "fix" people with broken moral compasses, rather than provide food for thought for normal people who haven't yet been exposed to ethical dilemmas they will likely encounter in some way, shape, or form in the future.
 
Brain Bucket said:
View attachment 182940
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Maybe you should also look up the definition of connotation vs. the definition of denotation. I totally agree with you though, the denotation is completely inoffensive. However, the connotation of the word is offensive in today's culture. Just trying to save the poster some flack he will certainly receive in the future if he uses that word. Not trying to be mean or anything, it's just offensive to people like myself who have family members with special needs. It's in line with using the word "gay" in a negative sense; it's just inappropriate after you graduate middle school.
 
SicEmBears said:
Maybe you should also look up the definition of connotation vs. the definition of denotation. I totally agree with you though, the denotation is completely inoffensive. However, the connotation of the word is offensive in today's culture. Just trying to save the poster some flack he will certainly receive in the future if he uses that word. Not trying to be mean or anything, it's just offensive to people like myself who have family members with special needs. It's in line with using the word "gay" in a negative sense; it's just inappropriate after you graduate middle school.
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Thank you, Hilary Duff.
 
SicEmBears said:
Maybe you should also look up the definition of connotation vs. the definition of denotation. I totally agree with you though, the denotation is completely inoffensive. However, the connotation of the word is offensive in today's culture. Just trying to save the poster some flack he will certainly receive in the future if he uses that word. Not trying to be mean or anything, it's just offensive to people like myself who have family members with special needs. It's in line with using the word "gay" in a negative sense; it's just inappropriate after you graduate middle school.
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Lol. its denotation was my point. It's amusing that you pointed me to the definition, when you conveniently ignored it in your original post. Both, the denotation and context, are completely inoffensive. It's you that's seeing smoke where there is no fire. His usage can be considered insensitive/crass at worst, no more.
 
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Brain Bucket said:
Lol. its detonation was my point. It's amusing that you pointed me to the definition, when you conveniently ignored it in your original post. Both, the denotation and context, are completely inoffensive. It's you that's seeing smoke where there is no fire. His usage can be considered insensitive/crass at worst, no more.
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Definitely didn't ignore the denotation when I was thinking about my original post, I spoke about the connotation because the denotation is straight forward. I guess I should've shared why I think he meant it that way originally, I just didn't think this would stir up any controversy: I only wanted to help him out as he steps into the professional world and begins medical school.

I checked out his post history and noticed he used the phrase "******ed" in other posts. This led me to believe it was in his everyday vernacular, not just an accidental mixup. I don't assume he is malicious in his intent with the word, and I totally agree with you when you say his post can only be "insensitive/crass" because I wasn't saying it was anything more than that. I do not hold any judgements for his character or anything, just informing him that it is inappropriate to use that word. 🙂 I hope this helps you understand where I'm coming from: I'm not attacking him, I'm just trying to help! If you have any further desire to talk about connotations, denotations, etymologies, cultural sensitivities, or just about how life is going for you, feel free to DM me 🙂
 
SicEmBears said:
Definitely didn't ignore the denotation when I was thinking about my original post, I spoke about the connotation because the denotation is straight forward. I guess I should've shared why I think he meant it that way originally, I just didn't think this would stir up any controversy: I only wanted to help him out as he steps into the professional world and begins medical school.

I checked out his post history and noticed he used the phrase "******ed" in other posts. This led me to believe it was in his everyday vernacular, not just an accidental mixup. I don't assume he is malicious in his intent with the word, and I totally agree with you when you say his post can only be "insensitive/crass" because I wasn't saying it was anything more than that. I do not hold any judgements for his character or anything, just informing him that it is inappropriate to use that word. 🙂 I hope this helps you understand where I'm coming from: I'm not attacking him, I'm just trying to help! If you have any further desire to talk about connotations, denotations, etymologies, cultural sensitivities, or just about how life is going for you, feel free to DM me 🙂
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Ah, my bad.
 
Duke, NYU, and Vanderbilt are all switching to three year programs. I believe they're eliminating one of the preclinical years.
 
Love circlejerks about semantics and definitions of words. thumpsup.jpeg
 
LiamNeesons said:
Duke, NYU, and Vanderbilt are all switching to three year programs. I believe they're eliminating one of the preclinical years.
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I will revive this thread in 7+ when most US schools become a 3-year program...
 
LiamNeesons said:
Duke, NYU, and Vanderbilt are all switching to three year programs. I believe they're eliminating one of the preclinical years.
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Um, Duke and Vanderbilt don't have 3 year MD programs. They have cut down basic sciences to 1 year but have made one year essentially a research year. NYU 3 year MD makes you choose a specialty beforehand.
 
DermViser said:
Um, Duke and Vanderbilt don't have 3 year MD programs. They have cut down basic sciences to 1 year but have made one year essentially a research year. NYU 3 year MD makes you choose a specialty beforehand.
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Therefore basic sciences can be cut to one year if Duke and other schools could do it... No research requirement and med school would be 3 year...
 
BestDoctorEver said:
Therefore basic sciences can be cut to one year if Duke and other schools could do it... No research requirement and med school would be 3 year...
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Yes, MS-0, but then you would have no 4th year to do audition electives, if you wanted to do something that isn't primary care, and which doesn't have a corresponding MS-3 clerkship.
 
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