38/4.0, no top tier schools

[cocimonster115]

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So a friend of mine is applying this cycle. Got a 38 MCAT and 4.0 GPA has been accepted to two state schools, but has gotten no responses (or rejections from) top tier schools (Duke and Vandy rejected with no interview).

They applied early (June), have average EC's (shadowing, volunteering and research), average LOC's and average essays.

I just find it strange that this person, which everyone expected to be going places has not heard a peep out of these places.

And to answer future remarks from the get go, this person is generally congenial and should perform well, not outstanding, but well in an interview (I've known them for many years now).

***Note - yes the applicant should (and is) grateful for the acceptances, but disappointed because they went through all the extra effort for mid-tier***

 

[mcloaf]

Not to sound harsh, but good numbers often aren't enough anymore. Average LORs, ECs, and essays don't cut it.

 

[cocimonster115]

Not to sound harsh, but good numbers often aren't enough anymore. Average LORs, ECs, and essays don't cut it.

You are right, but these stats are 99th percentile. And as far as I understood, MCAT and GPA outweigh other parts of the app. So here the applicant shows they are still well-rounded even if they are not a superstar in EC's.

 

[mcloaf]

You are right, but these stats are 99th percentile. And as far as I understood, MCAT and GPA outweigh other parts of the app. So here the applicant shows they are still well-rounded even if they are not a superstar in EC's.

Yeah, they are the two most important parts, but they are still parts of a much bigger picture. At mid-tier schools you can perhaps get a little more leverage on some parts if others are outstanding, such as this case. At top tiers, though, I think things are often competitive enough that this simply isn't the case. That being said, your friend must have a pretty underwhelming app outside of numbers to not have heard anything from top 20's assuming he/she applied to a number of them. That or a red flag you've not mentioned. Or, as is always possible, really really bad luck. 🙁

 

[aspiring20]

Top-tier schools want top-tier EC's. EVERYBODY who gets accepted to top-tier schools has stats that are well ahead of the curve. The hair splitting occurs with EC's. Everybody who gets into Harvard, Yale, JHU, Duke ect. has ridiculous EC's and have demonstrated an unwavering commitment to medicine and altruism. If you treat volunteering/shadowing/clinical exp as a checklist, then you can't expect top schools to give you a second glance, even with a 38 and a 4.0.

from a personal anecdotal experience, this is absolutely not true. you can say many and MAYBE most. but "everybody" is simply not true.

now, OP should know that top tiers (like harvard, jhu, duke, yale, etc.) place an overwhelming emphasis on scientific/medical research. "average" research probably won't cut it.

and from my own eyes, people have gotten into those few schools with 3.6+ 36+, solid/great research, and VERY cookie cutter everything else. believe it or not, most people i know who got into top tiers did not fill out over 10 spots on the works/activities section of the amcas (most had around 6-9 out of 15 filled). now, it is quality > quantity, but you dont need to be a superstar to get into a top tier.

for top tiers, focus on GPA, MCAT, and research.

 

[aspiring20]

You are wrong.

in what way? i am not making any of it up.

great GPA
high MCAT
excellent research
some other things

and you are good to go for top tiers

and not everyone who gets in have "shown unwavering dedication to medicine and altruism"

and lastly, i personally know 10+ people who have gotten into those schools, so i do have some basis. now, i agree with you that maybe everyone YOU know who got accepted to the top tiers are extraordinary - that's fine. but most definitely not everyone I know.

 

[Geebeejay]

So a friend of mine is applying this cycle. Got a 38 MCAT and 4.0 GPA has been accepted to two state schools, but has gotten no responses (or rejections from) top tier schools (Duke and Vandy rejected with no interview).

They applied early (June), have average EC's (shadowing, volunteering and research), average LOC's and average essays.

I just find it strange that this person, which everyone expected to be going places has not heard a peep out of these places.

And to answer future remarks from the get go, this person is generally congenial and should perform well, not outstanding, but well in an interview (I've known them for many years now).

***Note - yes the applicant should (and is) grateful for the acceptances, but disappointed because they went through all the extra effort for mid-tier***

Top tiers seek to matriculate future "leaders in medicine", so if you want to get into a top tier, you really need to stand out in this regard. He had high scores, but he's not the only one, and there are a lot of applicants with the same, or even slightly lower scores, with that one EC that really stands out, or that truly moving Personal statement - and they will be favored.

 

[DerpStore]

"a friend"

 

[aspiring20]

Top tiers seek to matriculate future "leaders in medicine", so if you want to get into a top tier, you really need to stand out in this regard. He had high scores, but he's not the only one, and there are a lot of applicants with the same, or even slightly lower scores, with that one EC that really stands out, or that truly moving Personal statement - and they will be favored.

Really? because most of my classmates who got into top tiers did not have any leadership activities outside of...well...nothing.

 

[La Presse]

in what way? i am not making any of it up.

great GPA
high MCAT
excellent research
some other things

and you are good to go for top tiers

and not everyone who gets in have "shown unwavering dedication to medicine and altruism"

and lastly, i personally know 10+ people who have gotten into those schools, so i do have some basis. now, i agree with you that maybe everyone YOU know who got accepted to the top tiers are extraordinary - that's fine. but most definitely not everyone I know.

Just to reiterate the point above, a commitment to medicine is absolutely necessary coupled with a history of academic achievement. It is very doubtful that one could make it very far without either. Judging from a cursory glance at applications that get accepted at top schools, international experience, global health, shadowing, leadership, powerful and ongoing research, and extensive clinical experience are among the imperative. It is safe to say that those lacking here face dismal chances at Ivy or top tier medical schools.




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[aspiring20]

Just to reiterate the point above, a commitment to medicine is absolutely necessary coupled with a history of academic achievement. It is very doubtful that one could make it very far without either. Judging from a cursory glance at applications that get accepted at top schools, international experience, global health, shadowing, leadership, powerful and ongoing research, and extensive clinical experience are among the imperative. It is safe to say that those lacking here face dismal chances at Ivy or top tier medical schools.




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do you mind elaborating a bit on what do you mean by international experience? are we talking about the typical 1 wk medical mission trip that cost upwards of $2,000? it is to my knowledge that many med schools dont like favorably on these experiences.

 

[La Presse]

do you mind elaborating a bit on what do you mean by international experience? are we talking about the typical 1 wk medical mission trip that cost upwards of $2,000? it is to my knowledge that many med schools dont like favorably on these experiences.

Sorry for being so vague. Apparently, international experience can mean a variety of things or activities done overseas. In fact, I knew of a young man who started a hospital overseas (more like a free clinic)--in his home country where the native doctors and nurses would rotate patients. It can also mean medical mission trips. Included within this broad umbrella is volunteering, starting organizations, etc. I have not been informed of a rule that says these types of experiences (int'l) must be clinical or medically related. Likewise, I am not entirely sure about the duration in relation to medical school admissions. Obviously, if it was not sustained, it is not very significant.

 

[aspiring20]

Sorry for being so vague. Apparently, international experience can mean a variety of things or activities done overseas. In fact, I knew of a young man who started a hospital overseas (more like a free clinic)--in his home country where the native doctors and nurses would rotate patients. It can also mean medical mission trips. Included within this broad umbrella is volunteering, starting organizations, etc. I have not been informed of a rule that says these types of experiences (int'l) must be clinical or medically related. Likewise, I am not entirely sure about the duration in relation to medical school admissions. Obviously, if it was not sustained, it is not very significant.

i see. i think a fair number of applicants have international experiences. i have a combined ~ 2 months in a foreign country doing non-medical volunteering and field research for my current independent project.

having said that, those with the kinds of experiences you described (starting a clinic) are astronomically few and far between. most common "international" experience at my school is GT tours across Europe, you get my drift. (actually i mean study abroad programs that are actually, well, vacations.)

 

[La Presse]

i see. i think a fair number of applicants have international experiences. i have a combined ~ 2 months in a foreign country doing non-medical volunteering and field research for my current independent project.

having said that, those with the kinds of experiences you described (starting a clinic) are astronomically few and far between. most common "international" experience at my school is GT tours across Europe, you get my drift. (actually i mean study abroad programs that are actually, well, vacations.)

Of course.

Oh and before I forget, congrats on getting accepted to you-know-where. 😉

 

[aspiring20]

Of course.

Oh and before I forget, congrats on getting accepted to you-know-where. ;)

what do you mean? i haven't applied yet.

 

[La Presse]

what do you mean? i haven't applied yet.

err, never mind. Mistook you for another.

 

[aspiring20]

err, never mind. Mistook you for another.

haha i see. i thought it was a sarcastic comment regarding the caribbeans.

 

[La Presse]

haha i see. i thought it was a sarcastic comment regarding the caribbeans.

Actually, someone whose username resembles yours got accepted into utmb? Somewhere like that.

/derail


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[cocimonster115]

"a friend"

I'm already in medical school, so yes a friend.

 

[cocimonster115]

Top tiers seek to matriculate future "leaders in medicine", so if you want to get into a top tier, you really need to stand out in this regard. He had high scores, but he's not the only one, and there are a lot of applicants with the same, or even slightly lower scores, with that one EC that really stands out, or that truly moving Personal statement - and they will be favored.

This makes the most sense. Unfortunately I feel like med school admissions are so competitive they want people to be practically doctors before they even start.

 

[red doctober]

So a friend of mine is applying this cycle. Got a 38 MCAT and 4.0 GPA has been accepted to two state schools, but has gotten no responses (or rejections from) top tier schools (Duke and Vandy rejected with no interview).

They applied early (June), have average EC's (shadowing, volunteering and research), average LOC's and average essays.

I just find it strange that this person, which everyone expected to be going places has not heard a peep out of these places.

And to answer future remarks from the get go, this person is generally congenial and should perform well, not outstanding, but well in an interview (I've known them for many years now).

***Note - yes the applicant should (and is) grateful for the acceptances, but disappointed because they went through all the extra effort for mid-tier***

I think it's really these things, although I'm surprised that not one top-tier has bitten. WashU, I'm looking at you.

 

[Lollygag]

I think a big part of this depends on how exactly you define top schools. If you are talking about top 25-15 then I don't think you need to start a medical clinic in Africa to be competitive. I honestly think that people can get lucky and get interviews at those places without publishing in multiple journals or serving in a third world country. Like aspiring20 said, people who do things like this are uncommon and there are more than a 1,000 seats distributed among top 25-15 schools, I just don't think there's enough of these amazing people to fill over a 1000 seats, some of them are bound to just have good extracurriculars. I don't think any of them would be too average though.

Now If you are talking about top 5 schools like Harvard, then there is no way you're getting accepted without being amazing. Because everyone at that level is applying with 3.7+/35+ stats, it's totally normal and high stats no longer make you interesting. So your extracurricular's mean everything at that level, more than they would at bob jones state school where the mean stats are 3.6/31 .

 

[Geebeejay]

Really? because most of my classmates who got into top tiers did not have any leadership activities outside of...well...nothing.

feel free to read the mission statements of the schools in question.

 

[aspiring20]

I think it's really these things, although I'm surprised that not one top-tier has bitten. WashU, I'm looking at you.

average volunteering/shadowing isn't a big deal. but average research is a big red flag for a top tier.

most of my peers who got into top tiers had very average/few hospital volunteering hours, but they all have AT LEAST 2 full years of intensive and productive research (many have closer to 3). they also had strong LORs from their research mentors/PIs, and because my school is quite strong in terms of medical research, they probably had big-name scientists/professors/physicians writing those letters.

 

[MedPR]

Herpderp

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[jcaptian]

"a friend"

"I see what you did there." 😉

 

[cocimonster115]

**Update** so so far this person has been accepted to 2 average level state schools (in Florida). All the top state schools they have been wait listed at and have not been taken off the wait list. This situation continues to baffle me. I don't know why everyone freaks out over MCAT and GPA if those don't even help you to get into a better school in your own state.

I will reiterate again, no red flags. Average EC's, but he did shadow, some clinical volunteering and about 1 year and a half of research. Also has a second major in non-medical field. Interviews were average as I understand, but nothing that would make someone not want to accept you to their school

 

[SpartanGuy]

Do you think this friend of yours might have carried an attitude with him/herself into interviews that may have given admissions the impression that this friend had their nose in the air so to speak? I can say if I had those stats it would be a struggle to not let pride turn into arrogance.

 

[cocimonster115]

Do you think this friend of yours might have carried an attitude with him/herself into interviews that may have given admissions the impression that this friend had their nose in the air so to speak? I can say if I had those stats it would be a struggle to not let pride turn into arrogance.

That is a really hard question to answer being that I wasn't sitting in the same room. Also it really depends on the interviewer and what their perception is of "arrogance".

In terms of the person himself (and I've known him for a long time), he has never paraded himself around anyone because of his high scores. In fact, quite the opposite. But again, I really don't know how I can answer your question. Those kind's of things depend on subtleties of demeanor and non-verbal communication. They also depend on any pre-conceived notions that an interviewer might have, or maybe an interviewer had just talked with a similarly well-achieving student who was arrogant and then is projecting that image on the next interviewee. Who knows??

 

[sliceofbread136]

His research was probably lacking. Excellent research is often the missing piece of the top tier puzzle.