3rd Time Re-Applicant, what do you think?

[BergXK]

Hey Folks, I’m a 3rd time re-applicant and would grateful some insight on where I stand this 2012 application cycle. Any input would greatly be appreciated and please be blunt with me on what I can expect this year, I want to have realistic expectations coming into the cycle and if I’m a stretch I would appreciate honestly.


First here is some background information on myself. I am of East Asian descent and I graduated in 2009 with a degree in biochemistry and psychology. My stats at the time were:

3.35 NONSCI
3.11 SCI
33M MCAT

Experience Pre College:
-150 Hours of doctor shadowing
-100 Hours of volunteer at Patient step down Ward
-2 summer internships at large pharm
-2 years of Insignificant Undergrad research
-Member of community Service club in college

I applied very late in October to a broad number of schools and received no interest. I applied the following year with almost no change in my stats in august and again received no interest. My substandard ECs, low gpa and late amcas submission were my cruxes. I had many recommendations from professors, the doctors I shadowed, and places of employment. I did not receive one interview and while the complete lack of interest was expected I was still quite disappointed. (In myself that is)

After applying 2 consecutive cycles in 2010/2011 I decided to skip 2012 to give myself some time to explore life. Although some of these life experiences have been life altering and strengthen my decision to pursue a career in medicine only very few seem to strengthen my application in my pursuit of medicine. The ones that do are as follows:

Experience Post College:
- 2 years of full time work experience after college in cell processing lab (Not really research but lab work)
-EMT-B certified and member of local squad since last Sept.
- 100 Hours of hospital transport and Pathology Lab volunteer
- Taken 5 Graduate Level courses with a 3.5 post bac Sci GPA
-Retook MCATs when my last ones expired last summer for a 35M (2pt Improvement)

I have gotten two more recs since my last application cycle, one from my employment and the other from a professor whose class I recently took. My days consist of day trading equities and derivatives in the morning for my primary source of income, and a full time second shift job as a lab tech. I am taking one class this semester and I am also on call one night a week for my squad. I’m 25 years old and I’m ready and excited to take the next step. I have money put aside and I am planning to apply to pretty much every school out there this year that takes any significant number of out of states. But the question is, do I have a realistic shot?? Or will it be another one in the dark?

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[ineed2stpsmurfn]

ok don't take offense to what I'm about to say, cause it's only my opinion and what do I know, right?


your undergrad gpa. thats whats screwing you. you don't need to take grad classes just retake all of those classes yanking down your gpa significantly. The problem is, since your east asian your competing versus a LOT of others east asians who have steller 3.8-9 gpa's. why should they accept you when they can get someone with a gpa that is way higher and everything else is the same or better? you have to look at your competition. anyways maybe someone else can give a better analysis.

 

[flodhi1]

OP a 35 on the MCAT is a great score. Honestly, you're going to have to enroll in a SMP program and get a GPA > 3.6 and then surely you would get attention. Even now I believe that if you expand your clinical experience, apply early and very broadly that you might stand a chance. How is your personal statement? does it stand out? do you know how your LORs are?

 

[vin5cent0]

Once again, SDN harps on stats. You're out of your bleeping mind if you think a 3.35/35 is going to keep someone out of medical school.

If you got rejected with a 3.35/33, it was likely your PS or something along those lines. Those things are HUGE in the application cycle. Schools want to see genuine applicants, not people with perfect stats and nothing else to offer. Your ECs are also a little weak, but your application now looks solid. Get a good PS going, answer the essays well.. you're golden.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

Definitely disagree with the above post. With the process being more and more competitive, people with 3.5s and 33s or 35s aren't having much luck. And the nonsci gpa is 3.35 and a sci gpa of 3.11 giving a cgpa of 3.2ish. The grad classes aren't going to hold nearly as much weight, plus the 3.11 is in the classes that matter. A good PS will be essential, but so will an SMP or DO application. OP there is nothing to indicate that you can do well in med school. You need to do the SMP. A 3.2/35 will definitely keep someone out of MD school. You can probably get in DO though.

 

[Buzz Me]

Agree with the above. Matriculants tend to have GPAs around 3.65 now.

 

[gman33]

Once again, SDN harps on stats. You're out of your bleeping mind if you think a 3.35/35 is going to keep someone out of medical school.

If you got rejected with a 3.35/33, it was likely your PS or something along those lines. Those things are HUGE in the application cycle. Schools want to see genuine applicants, not people with perfect stats and nothing else to offer. Your ECs are also a little weak, but your application now looks solid. Get a good PS going, answer the essays well.. you're golden.

You are way off base.
3.35 overall with 3.1 science gpa will get you screened out of tons of places.
Not only won't you get in, your app will never even get looked at.

No harm in applying this cycle. Also apply to DO schools.

 

[Jlaw]

OP are you applying MD only or to both MD and DO? Your GPA is definitely low for MD but I wouldn't think its insurmountable.

Like others have said I think you have a mediocre but still acceptable GPA, especially for DO, you have an awesome MCAT, your EC's seem adequate as long as you actually have an interest in the stuff you've done. and can tie these activities into your interest in medicine on your personal statement.

At this point I think you need to look at recommendation letters and your essays as possible issues. Do you think the recs are strong? Assuming you can't see them yourself could you ask your undergrad school committee to take a look at them? Have you had someone read your personal statement? If you PM it to me I would be glad to take a look and give you my opinion.

 

[BergXK]

GPA was low but mostly in the basic sciences, like biology, chemistry and organic. All Cs across the board. I was very immature and actually training to become a bodybuilder at that time so the focus was not on the studies at all.

Science grades in my subsequent years were higher and I received As in classes like Pchem, astrophyics and biochem electives. However in my senior year to due some personal problems my grades once drifted towards the b range. It makes an unconvincing argument that I went from a poor student to a great one but there are very noticeable improvements from the beginning to the end.

But i guess the truth is that the screen will block me out of a lot of schools. My recs are fairly strong, I have about 9 of them and I have personally seen 5 of them because of the closeness to my recommenders but I have no idea which ones my Health professions office are going to choose for my recommendation package. I plan AMCAs submission June 1st and I am currently working very hard on my PS.

I really wanted to avoid the DO and Caribbean schools but with the current landscape does it seem I fall more within the DO range then the MD range?? I was under the impression that I was still competitive (On the very low end) based on past stats. I think I saw that people with 3.15 sci with 35 mcats had a roughly 50% acceptance rate if they applied am I incorrect in my assumptions?
Thanks for all the replies guys, big help.

 

[OldBat]

You have almost the same stats as my son. Would you be able to take some upper level science during the summer semester. Not graduate classes but 3000 4000 level classes. Three or four A's would pull up both GPA's.

 

[Buzz Me]

I really wanted to avoid the DO and Caribbean schools but with the current landscape does it seem I fall more within the DO range then the MD range?? I was under the impression that I was still competitive (On the very low end) based on past stats.

Why are you avoiding applying to DO schools? After two previous failed cycles, why limit yourself?

Your GPA is more than a standard deviation below the mean for MD schools.

 

[BergXK]

Unfortunately all courses I take now undergrad or grad level count as "postbac" my undergrad GPA is now written in stone. So my 5 graduate courses after college are all I have to go off of and that will be a 3.5 by the end of this current semester.

My last two cycles I applied very late and my files were not complete till late October and last August for those two trials. This left me with a lot to be desired, considering I found out most of the interviews came in July.

I am not against neither DO nor Caribbean schools however if I am eligible for an MD, I would definitely prefer it. Although you hear people say there is no difference, looking at the residency matches between the comparative programs I'm inclined to believe a bias still exists. It would save me some headache down the road.

I will throw in some DO schools for safety this cycle and apply to the Caribbean in spring if I still generate no interest in MD programs, but I am much more confident towards these options, because I have had friends enter both these alternatives this previous year with much lower stats and experience.

I've been told I interview very well and I prepared to apply to upwards of 40 schools this coming cycle for MD. I'm also playing with the thought of retaking my MCATs as well. I did not find them to be as horrific as many of my peers and I believe I have a lot left in the tank considering my last preparation consisted of taking a week off work before the MCAT to review my materials and taking 4 practice tests where I scored roughly 35 on all of them.

I was really focused on generating more income right now with my trading and work but I guess priorities come first. Would a 3-5 point increase in MCAT put me in another ball park?? Or would the effort in this case not be worth the time b/c of my GPA?

I guess the purpose of these posts was to gauge my expectations. Its been a while since I applied and it seems the landscape has gotten a little bit more competitive compared to even the previous years. I would gladly put all my money in for even a chance at this dream, however If i'm that far off the mark I would at least like to prepare for the alternatives.

Again thanks for all the insight guys!

 

[FrkyBgStok]

i feel like you already answered all your questions by being a 3rd time reapplicant. Being complete in august is not late by any stretch of imagination, so you are just making excuses. and a 3.15 is not competitive. As someone said, you are too far away from the accepted student gpa.

i think retaking a 35 is a waste. really, your options are enrolling in an SMP or applying DO. If you want to do MD, you go SMP. Again, being a 3rd time reapplicant means there are things wrong that you haven't fixed. It is the gpa.

And no offense, but applying with a 3.15 and trying to prove you can handle med school, you need a 4.0, not a 3.5 gpa.

 

[BergXK]

well sir, thx for being honest. I appreciate that.

I will take the MCATs again as it seems its I can do at this point to make me more attractive to the the folks looking at my apps. I am still looking apply to MD, but I will also widen my DO net now as well.

I just found this as well,
https://www.aamc.org/download/157598/data/table25-a-mcatgpa-grid-asian.pdf
37% acceptance rate for similar stats. Odds aint great but I placed bets on much worse before.

Things suddenly don't seem as bright as they were, but hey, its worth a shot.

 

[ineed2stpsmurfn]

I just found this as well,
https://www.aamc.org/download/157598/data/table25-a-mcatgpa-grid-asian.pdf
37% acceptance rate for similar stats. Odds aint great but I placed bets on much worse before.

Things suddenly don't seem as bright as they were, but hey, its worth a shot.

that is exactly what i was talking about before. I've looked at all of thsoe grids and you really have to asses WHO your competition is. It isn't the entire group of applicants... People really overlook this factor time and time again.

 

[Buzz Me]

With your stats I'm not sure why you didn't apply widely (the aforementioned 40+ med schools) the first time. And after your first round of applications, I would have done everything possible to apply as early as possible, and to DO programs as well

Post-bacc work helps your undergrad GPA. Grad-level courses don't help. An SMP may.

I would focus more on your GPA than your MCAT (tough to significantly improve a 35, and if you go down, that's bad).

 

[DrShazam]

Unfortunately all courses I take now undergrad or grad level count as "postbac" my undergrad GPA is now written in stone. So my 5 graduate courses after college are all I have to go off of and that will be a 3.5 by the end of this current semester.

Those classes may count as post-bacc, but if they are taken at the undergraduate level, they will still count towards your overall science GPA, which is where you should focus your energy. There are online alternatives available such as UC Berkley Extension in case deadlines have passed to enroll this semester. Improving your MCAT will help, but after you cross a certain threshold, each point has diminishing returns. On the other hand, your GPA is at the point where any increase in it will provide significantly greater returns.

 

[blue0rchid]

don't retake the mcat. retake some classes to replace grades for DO. Or do SMP.
If you're dead set on retaking the mcat, how about doing both that and applying for SMP at the same time. If you don't get in next cycle, at least you get into SMP then.

As a reapplicant, each year of rejection counts against you. Your chance will be lower than 38% because you're a 3rd time reapplicant. AFAIK, adcoms will look at repplicant apps with scrutiny and if you don't try to improve your app at its weakness (GPA), instead keep trying to raise mcat hoping to get in, they will pass you. Unless you get 40+ then you'll get some attention. Good luck.

 

[Law2Doc]

Those classes may count as post-bacc, but if they are taken at the undergraduate level, they will still count towards your overall science GPA, which is where you should focus your energy. There are online alternatives available such as UC Berkley Extension in case deadlines have passed to enroll this semester. Improving your MCAT will help, but after you cross a certain threshold, each point has diminishing returns. On the other hand, your GPA is at the point where any increase in it will provide significantly greater returns.

Yeah, OP, you aren't understanding the concept of postbac. Postbac is undergraduate level courses you take after graduation. When school look at your GPA on AMCAS, they look at the undergrad plus undergrad postbac category. Grad classes don't factor in. There is no graduate level postbac. Courses taken in a SMP may help allay adcom fears of how you will handle the rigors of med school, but those numbers aren't really ever averaged in. So your graduate grades taken outside of a SMP don't matter at all. Undergrad courses taken from here on out will.

 

[Supisak]

+1000 - to vin5cent10
leave it to SDN premeds that know it all, fix your PS and TELL AN INTERESTING STORY in it. A lot of these pre-meds think the PS is where they get mention their sick grandmother in the first paragraph and use the rest of it to gloss over their previously stated ECs - tired!
Tell a story that people want to read and be honest about,
And clean up the rest of the app for content and grammar

DO NOT retake mcat, retake any low grades and sprinkle in some epi or stats as those are becoming more vogue
Apply EARLY and broadly

 

[scarshapedstar]

You had me at 35 MCAT. Sheesh.

I'll be brief: take an SMP, get a 4.0, hello MD. You are obviously more than smart enough. I doubt there's anything I can tell you about your study habits that you haven't already heard from your High Expectations Asian Father, but I did a GPA comeback myself, and the truth is that you will never get a 4.0 unless you are prepared to be a 4.0 student. Don't go out, don't make excuses, B = fail, study study study.

One year to prove you're not a B student. Do whatever it takes - I smoked a pack (and luckily managed to quit over a year ago now) and drank one or two cans of Nos every day (I've cut back dramatically...) to cope. Not necessarily recommending such a lifestyle, but I do endorse a general death-or-glory attitude, because right now you look like you're not giving 100% and that's a problem.

On the other hand, to never get a single interview definitely suggests that you are also coming across poorly in your PS or activities. I don't know if your "stats" are exhaustive but you could use a little flair. Cliff-diving, for example, would pique someone's interest.

In fact, let me ask you right now, because this is a classic interview question: What do you think sets you apart from all the other applicants?

 

[235009]

your insistence on retaking the MCAT is very typical of unsuccessful applicants. you are avoiding the actual problem (your GPA) and focusing on the part of your app that you find easier to control but isn't what's holding you back (the MCAT).

you are basically a shoe-in for DO programs as-is. they will be thrilled about your MCAT score which is 7-10 points above their average score and will not hold the GPA against you.

however the only path you have to US MD is an SMP! those programs were made for people like you: very competitive MCAT score and low gpa. it's a very expensive do-or-die situation though and you'll have to give 110% for a whole year with an almost flawless performance to prove yourself.

carribbean should not even be on the table for you. your MCAT is too good. carribbean is mostly for people with low gpa and low mcat.

 

[Buzz Me]

Great advice above.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

For the record, I didn't read all the posts, I'm just throwing out what I know...

Your science GPA is a bit on the low side, and you could benefit from taking some UG science classes. Your MCAT is awesome. I would have all the people on SDN read your statements because it could be that... From my rejections, my GPA (c/s 3.18, PB (80cr) c-3.83, s-3.91) was not the issue it was my MCAT (7ps)... I think you need to have some people who don't know you review your paperwork, AND you need to get your stuff in on Day 1, not August...

 

[Lederhosen]

You had me at 35 MCAT. Sheesh.

I'll be brief: take an SMP, get a 4.0, hello MD. You are obviously more than smart enough. I doubt there's anything I can tell you about your study habits that you haven't already heard from your High Expectations Asian Father, but I did a GPA comeback myself, and the truth is that you will never get a 4.0 unless you are prepared to be a 4.0 student. Don't go out, don't make excuses, B = fail, study study study.

One year to prove you're not a B student. Do whatever it takes - I smoked a pack (and luckily managed to quit over a year ago now) and drank one or two cans of Nos every day (I've cut back dramatically...) to cope. Not necessarily recommending such a lifestyle, but I do endorse a general death-or-glory attitude, because right now you look like you're not giving 100% and that's a problem.

On the other hand, to never get a single interview definitely suggests that you are also coming across poorly in your PS or activities. I don't know if your "stats" are exhaustive but you could use a little flair. Cliff-diving, for example, would pique someone's interest.

In fact, let me ask you right now, because this is a classic interview question: What do you think sets you apart from all the other applicants?

This is terrible, but I love it.

 

[scarshapedstar]

This is terrible, but I love it.

Come to think of it, sometimes I feel really frustrated about having to wait another year to start med school, but I'm really glad to have had another year to detox.

 

[Lederhosen]

Come to think of it, sometimes I feel really frustrated about having to wait another year to start med school, but I'm really glad to have had another year to detox.

I might be taking a year off too. It seems like a nice idea not to worry about school and grades for a year.
Detox is bueno.