4.0 GPA = bad

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desklamp

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This might sound ridiculous, but I've read and been told enough times that a 4.0 GPA can be detrimental to a pharmacy application for residencies or jobs for me to want to dig into it further.

Anyone heard/experienced something like this?

And I'm not talking 4.0 GPA with nothing else to show for it. What about a candidate with a 4.0, research experience, abstracts, multiple leadership positions, volunteer, and work experience, or a 4.0 with a combination of the above? (not talking about me, by the way, just people I know).

I mean reading my post, the idea of academic excellence being harmful to someone's chances sounds absolutely ******ed, but there has been some cutthroat, jealousy related, petty stuff going down in pharmacy school (including bad-mouthing others to faculty and residency directors) I have been privvy to hearing about (though rumors only, of course) so I've lost a bit of faith in the system.

Thanks.
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It's true in certain places. But if a student has work experience and leadership, posters, etc., I can't imagine it keeping someone from an interview.

It's the interview that matters in the end, though. People can tell when someone is an arrogant a-hole (for the most part).

But I know the whole 4.0 student being an idiot and/or douche attitude definitely exists. Fact.

I think in these times, a student from a new school should be the most worried, though.

Fortunately for you, I don't think you have to worry about that.
 
It's all about balance. A 4.0 student with zero extracurricular activities is someone I wouldn't want to invite to my college of pharmacy or ask to work at my hospital. Just how I feel and I've seen it too. Used to know a guy that had a 3.9 GPA with a 98 PCAT that was rejected NINE times from colleges of pharmacy from all over the country because he doesn't have that social balance and his interview suffered because of it.

I'm not joking or trolling either. You send an application to me with a 4.0 GPA and zero work/activity experience? Enjoy the bottom of the stack.
 
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Yeah totally agree with both of you.

GPA doesn't = great clinician. Just was concerned hearing people talk badly about people in Rho Chi, saying they would never hire someone with a 4.0, etc. Also have seen people with decent GPAs, publications, good work experience have to scramble this year, so it confuses me what people are looking for in a residency candidate. I mean how much can you really tell about a person based on spending one day with them during an interview process rampant with nerves and good acting?

And I'm interested in hearing more about these 4.0 douche types 😛.
 
I have a really good 4.0 dbag story. Took a chemistry class in undergrad and the professor had a policy that if you missed more than 3 classes or made below a 70 on an exam you would be guaranteed a grade no higher than a B. One kid missed 4 classes, passed all of his exams, and made an A. Girl in my class had a final grade of 89.4 in the class, was given a B, and went up to the professor with documentation, witnesses, the whole sha-bang and told the professor that she would report him to the regents for academic misconduct if she didn't get an A.

He caved. Gave her an A. Still has a 4.0 and is still a...you know...dbag.
 
Unfortunately this is true in my experience.
 
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lactonerx said:
Unfortunately this is true in my experience. About to graduate with a 4.0 and did not match. I have been widely involved in organizations, worked all during school, presented posters etc. Program directors' negative perceptions of the 4.0 were too hard to overcome.
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Were you ever the prez/VP of any organization?
 
To me a 4.0 means you had way too much time on your hands and should have been busy doing something else.
 
@BenJammin: Man, that's cutthroat :/

@Notecard: I'm curious, why is this your perception of a 4.0 rather than thinking the person might just be really smart or hard working? The reason I ask is because, at least among pre-meds when you hear about the guy with the 4.0 and the 40 MCAT score, or honors every class,everyone kind of idolizes them rather than undermining (unless said high achieving student was the dbag gunner type or got their As in the manner that BenJammin mentioned).

@lactonerx: If you're okay with it, could you expand more about your experience with negative perception of high GPAs? Were people just really snotty about it, or just walked into the interview with the preconceived notion that 4.0 = no-lifer, no social skills, etc?

Interestingly, from a residency website:

Q: I've heard that only the smartest students in pharmacy school are able to complete a residency. How important are grades when applying to a top program?

A: It would be difficult to convince me that a pharmacy student with a 4.0 GPA is any smarter than a student with a 3.0 GPA. Just about everyone that can successfully meet the demands of today's doctorate program is intelligent. When really analyzing an applicant's GPA, several other factors must be considered, such as: leadership activities, society involvement, community service, work experience, organizational abilities, and time management. You could argue that the student with a 4.0 GPA kept themselves better organized by utilizing stronger time management skills…but were they involved with extracurricular activities, or did they only focus on their grades? The most "residency ready" students are those that were able to juggle a little bit of each of the previously mentioned activities throughout their entire academic career.
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I'll chime in. I had a 3.94 cumulative (Valedictorian), President of APhA-ASP for one year, Secretary of Rho Chi, served on two administrative committees for the College (Assessment and Curriculum), worked 15–20 hours a week in a research lab since P1 year, had three publications with a faculty member, and volunteered in a local pharmacy part time. Of thirteen applications I sent in, I got four interviews, though I did eventually match. I spent a great deal of time on my applications, had my letters of intent and CV reviewed by many people, and got what I felt would be good letters from my preceptors.

In the end, I think I hurt myself by applying primarily to big name academic institutions who get a massive number of excellent applications.
 
Marcus X said:
I'll chime in. I had a 3.94 cumulative (Valedictorian), President of APhA-ASP for one year, Secretary of Rho Chi, served on two administrative committees for the College (Assessment and Curriculum), worked 15–20 hours a week in a research lab since P1 year, had three publications with a faculty member, and volunteered in a local pharmacy part time. Of thirteen applications I sent in, I got four interviews, though I did eventually match. I spent a great deal of time on my applications, had my letters of intent and CV reviewed by many people, and got what I felt would be good letters from my preceptors.

In the end, I think I hurt myself by applying primarily to big name academic institutions who get a massive number of excellent applications.
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This really depresses me : ( I'm not anywhere near that level of awesome-ness.

Out of curiosity, what general region of the US were you applying to? When you say big name do you mean like, Johns Hopkins, Yale, UCSF, etc.?
 
That is what I mean by "big name". I applied all over the country, no particular region in particular.
 
It's just a stereotype that's in people's minds bc pharmacy school students with high GPAs tend to be really awkward...which makes sense bc all they do is study and not talk to people or socialize! Just a story, but I was really excited to have a Rho Chi girl in one of my group competitions but it turned out to be awful because even though her work was good, her presentation was AWFUL (kept stammering...sentences didnt make sense...skipped a whole thought on a slide...) AND on the day of the presentation (that was in front of faculty!) she wore awful clothes with SNEAKERS whereas everyone else is top dressed. it was awful. I was so dissapointed.
 
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There's a big difference in what you learn in a class when you get a 4.0 vs. a 3.0. I pushed myself in undergrad and got 4.0s in every single class my sophomore and junior year, but it was not an easy ride. I also didn't have that many classes and was able to take classes based on when I could to do the best in them (i.e. no more than 2 hard science/math classes a quarter).

When I was in pharmacy school, I did push myself and got As in some classes, but the ones that I just didn't see as relevant or just didn't have as much time for, I got Bs. I know I learned much more in the classes I got As in than the ones I got Bs in. And while I don't remember everything I ever learned, I know that in the classes I got higher grades in, I learned the material much more in depth.

I would be leary about a student that had a 4.0 coming out of pharmacy school or any university or graduate program, really. Sometimes, it's because they are that intelligent, but sometimes it's because they'll do everything in their power to get that A. Sometimes, they have intelligence at the expense of social skills.

That said, I disagree with the statement that you quoted, desklamp. A student closer to a 4.0 probably knows more than one coming out with a 3.0 of pharmacy school. However, regardless of what we think, that is the opinion of someone who interviews residents. I think your best bet is to do as well as you can (but if you're in danger of getting a 4.0 overall, give yourself a break with a class or two 😉), but make sure you get some outside EC experience, i.e. leadership, volunteering, and/or a job.
 
desklamp said:
@Notecard: I'm curious, why is this your perception of a 4.0 rather than thinking the person might just be really smart or hard working? The reason I ask is because, at least among pre-meds when you hear about the guy with the 4.0 and the 40 MCAT score, or honors every class,everyone kind of idolizes them rather than undermining (unless said high achieving student was the dbag gunner type or got their As in the manner that BenJammin mentioned).
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This isn't medicine. If you have a problem with 4.0's not being considered god-tier then you're in the wrong profession. I'm not undermining it either. I'm saying that the time it takes to get a 4.0 in pharmacy school isn't worth it unless you really want a residency and the rest of your application looks great. But most of the people I know don't aren't anything like that. They have a huge GPA with some fluff on their CV pretending to be meaningful extracurriculars and expect to have it made.

Most of the people I've talked to who were in rho chi that didn't do residencies wish that they would have worked more and relaxed during school rather than study all the time. I'll stick with my 3.5 GPA and work 30-40 hours a week. Honestly I see graduating with 1/4th the amount of loans as a much better achievement than a ~4.0 GPA.
 
Not to discourage you, but this is true in my experience as well. I didn't match anywhere, and it seemed like the candidates who had lower GPAs in my class were actually better off for the residency process. I also had interviewers make some very negative comments about my GPA (not a 4.0) on at least two of my residency interviews that I can think of. I did lack somewhat in work experience, but not in anything else. So just prepare yourself that the stereotype is out there.

The above comment about medicine is very accurate; I feel that medicine values academics; pharmacy, eh, not so much. I wouldn't tell anyone not to study and try to do well in school, but honestly you are better off focusing on other things.

P.S. I would say for job-related purposes, they will only know your GPA if they ask to see your transcripts or something. So other than that, I would keep your GPA off your resume and not bring it up unless otherwise asked directly...and you will be just fine for jobs.
 
I had a near perfect GPA, lots of activities, and worked 18hrs a week while in school. I had no problems getting interviews or matched. Programs look at the whole package. If you only have a 4.0 with nothing else, then no, maybe you aren't a well rounded candidate. If you have a 2.5, and lots of work/activities we probably won't look at you.

Our average GPA for our residents who matched last yr was a 3.6...all had work experience and leadership...some where higher (3.96/3.92)...
 
KARM12 said:
I had a near perfect GPA, lots of activities, and worked 18hrs a week while in school. I had no problems getting interviews or matched. Programs look at the whole package. If you only have a 4.0 with nothing else, then no, maybe you aren't a well rounded candidate. If you have a 2.5, and lots of work/activities we probably won't look at you.

Our average GPA for our residents who matched last yr was a 3.6...all had work experience and leadership...some where higher (3.96/3.92)...
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This sounds about right. Most residency directors I've spoken with say 3.3-3.4ish is their arbitrary cut off for interviews unless someone has something exceptional. But pretty much lower than 3.0 and getting an interview is veeeery slim.
 
Notecard said:
This isn't medicine. If you have a problem with 4.0's not being considered god-tier then you're in the wrong profession. I'm not undermining it either. I'm saying that the time it takes to get a 4.0 in pharmacy school isn't worth it unless you really want a residency and the rest of your application looks great. But most of the people I know don't aren't anything like that. They have a huge GPA with some fluff on their CV pretending to be meaningful extracurriculars and expect to have it made.

Most of the people I've talked to who were in rho chi that didn't do residencies wish that they would have worked more and relaxed during school rather than study all the time. I'll stick with my 3.5 GPA and work 30-40 hours a week. Honestly I see graduating with 1/4th the amount of loans as a much better achievement than a ~4.0 GPA.
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Right, I realize things are different in med vs. pharm, but if you think about it, don't both professions want similar things? I'm talking clinical pharmacy more so than retail.

You want someone who can represent the profession in a positive way, to push the field into the spotlight, garner more respect from other practitioners, etc. and at the same time be an excellent clinician, ask well formed research questions, achieve goals, aim high etc. In that respect, I don't see why a type A personality would be a bad thing (though obviously non 4.0 students do this as well) 😛. But I guess I don't understand why we think 4.0 students can't do this stuff just as well, or better?

I also agree with FarscapeGirl regarding learning more in A vs. B classes.

That is why I'm confused about the negative perception of GPA in pharmacy (for residencies). I can see people being leery and wanting to make sure the candidate is well rounded, but to outright have to hide the fact that someone has a high GPA due to negative stereotypes is worrisome, though i realize this won't be the case with all directors.

It sounds like the reasons for stereotypes may be that the hiring directors themselves did not put stock in grades or Rho Chi students did a poor job representing high achievers in school : (.

@mustang sally: What were the negative comments? :/

P.S. Thanks to everyone for responding btw, really interesting stuff 😀
P.P.S Just FYI, most of the Rho Chis I've met are genuinely intelligent people. Some have the aforementioned flaws: no ECs, cutthroat, difficult to work with. But a lot of them are also well rounded, and go out of there way to help others. I feel that this variation also applies equally to the rest of the student body, so attaching this negative stereotype to high achievers rather than looking at their accomplishments just seems....blah.
 
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mustang sally said:
The above comment about medicine is very accurate; I feel that medicine values academics; pharmacy, eh, not so much. I wouldn't tell anyone not to study and try to do well in school, but honestly you are better off focusing on other things.
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When it comes to ranking academics, pharmacy is definitely at the bottom of the list. You would never hear about a law school or medical school turning away a 4.0 for that reason alone. I have too many stories about 4.0 students being rejected from my alma mater.
 
I don't remember what the exact comments were, but it was just a general snarkiness about why my GPA was so high. I would never be rude or arrogant during an interview and I remember being really taken aback that someone else would be. I do remember that the pharmacists making the comments were random people on interview panels, and not the residency directors themselves.

It was very discouraging to me to have worked so hard in pharmacy school (both academically and otherwise) and then not match. However, I think it's important for all non-matchers to realize that failure at this one thing does not mean you are going to be a bad pharmacist. You are still going to go on to make a difference in patients' lives and you can still accomplish your professional goals. Maybe you need to reapply, or maybe you just look a little harder for that job that will allow you to do as much of what you want to do without residency training.

Okay, I will get off my soap box now 🙂 I know you said this post was not about you specifically, but I think the most you can do at this point is as others have said, and try to make yourself as well rounded as possible. There is not much point in worrying about what your GPA is or is not, especially if you are far along in school. Now if you are just starting out, it's a different story...
 
Q: Were you ever the prez/VP of any organization?
A: yes

Q: @lactonerx: If you're okay with it, could you expand more about your experience with negative perception of high GPAs? Were people just really snotty about it, or just walked into the interview with the preconceived notion that 4.0 = no-lifer, no social skills, etc?
A: I got asked a lot of questions about my hobbies. Some interviewers said conversational things about the gpa, like "I would never have made it into residency with my gpa if the competition is what it is like now!" and "What would you do if you got a B in school?"
 
lactonerx said:
Q: Were you ever the prez/VP of any organization?
A: yes

Q: @lactonerx: If you're okay with it, could you expand more about your experience with negative perception of high GPAs? Were people just really snotty about it, or just walked into the interview with the preconceived notion that 4.0 = no-lifer, no social skills, etc?
A: I got asked a lot of questions about my hobbies. Some interviewers said conversational things about the gpa, like "I would never have made it into residency with my gpa if the competition is what it is like now!" and "What would you do if you got a B in school?"
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Hah that last one is such a weird question to ask a candidate.
Not sure what they are expecting to hear... "I would jump off a building"? "I would cry....a lot."? 😛
 
This is stupid. It's not because you had a 4.0....the stats only get you the interview. If you had a 4.0...got an interview and didn't get an offer...it's because someone else interviewed better than you (they came off more ambitious/eager...they came off more compassionate/human...they were more social..etc).

It's not that companies and interviewers are actively seeking lower GPA candidates...it's just that the lower GPA candidates tend to be more active in their communities and have other accomplishments to show besides just studying all day....hence they have a lower GPA.
 
desklamp said:
This might sound ridiculous, but I've read and been told enough times that a 4.0 GPA can be detrimental to a pharmacy application for residencies or jobs for me to want to dig into it further.

Anyone heard/experienced something like this?

And I'm not talking 4.0 GPA with nothing else to show for it. What about a candidate with a 4.0, research experience, abstracts, multiple leadership positions, volunteer, and work experience, or a 4.0 with a combination of the above? (not talking about me, by the way, just people I know).

I mean reading my post, the idea of academic excellence being harmful to someone's chances sounds absolutely ******ed, but there has been some cutthroat, jealousy related, petty stuff going down in pharmacy school (including bad-mouthing others to faculty and residency directors) I have been privvy to hearing about (though rumors only, of course) so I've lost a bit of faith in the system.

Thanks.
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I don't think having a 4.0 GPA or near 4.0 GPA would be a detriment. Then again, it could explain why I haven't been able to find a pharmacy job in medical school... but then again its probably because of how bad the job market is right now. Haha.
 
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I'm not so sure if the 4.0 is a negative factor. Correlation doesn't always equal causation. From my experience some 4.0 students are arrogant and have poor personal skills. Even if they have a 4.0 they could have always flopped the interview or displayed qualities that residency directors didn't want in their residents.

For certain teaching hospitals high academic scores are pretty much necessary in order to match with them.
 
I don't think it's the 4.0 GPA that's the issue, it might be the dull personality that goes with it. When I was at Touro and on the student ADCOM, me and the students on the ADCOM would ask them questions about what they like to do. If anyone ever answered these questions with "study, research, work", I'd immediately give them a zero. If they said "drink, party, play sports", then **** yeah I'm giving them a max grade on the interview". Also, sexy women got a preference too.

I'm pretty sure this carries on into the residency world.
 
Sparda29 said:
I don't think it's the 4.0 GPA that's the issue, it might be the dull personality that goes with it. When I was at Touro and on the student ADCOM, me and the students on the ADCOM would ask them questions about what they like to do. If anyone ever answered these questions with "study, research, work", I'd immediately give them a zero. If they said "drink, party, play sports", then **** yeah I'm giving them a max grade on the interview". Also, sexy women got a preference too.

I'm pretty sure this carries on into the residency world.
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What, I would had failed that interview. I just said play video games, gym and reading a book. Lol, video games as in trauma center haha.
 
Sparda29 said:
Also, sexy women got a preference too.

I'm pretty sure this carries on into the residency world.
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Heh, I'm sure this is true. One of our major residency programs here takes photos of their interviewees and places them with their file.
 
nycrxdream said:
What, I would had failed that interview. I just said play video games, gym and reading a book. Lol, video games as in trauma center haha.
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That's similar to my lifestyle too 😆

Although I was asked the "what do you do for fun" question and I answered honestly.

For me a big pet peeve is when someone asks "what is your biggest weakness?" and someone answers "I just work too hard and strive for perfection." That person would get negative marks in my book.
 
Lnsean said:
This is stupid. It's not because you had a 4.0....the stats only get you the interview. If you had a 4.0...got an interview and didn't get an offer...it's because someone else interviewed better than you (they came off more ambitious/eager...they came off more compassionate/human...they were more social..etc).

It's not that companies and interviewers are actively seeking lower GPA candidates...it's just that the lower GPA candidates tend to be more active in their communities and have other accomplishments to show besides just studying all day....hence they have a lower GPA.
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Well the reason I created this thread was because of reading/hearing specific comments against high GPAs, and wanting to see if others had heard or experienced something similar. It's too idealistic to think that every time someone gets a position over you it's purely because they were "better" and there were no stigmas or personal opinions that factored into the decision. If that were the case, and no one was trash talking Rho Chi, or saying how 4.0 candidates were not "trustworthy" (among other things) I wouldn't be worried haha.
 
Sparda29 said:
I don't think it's the 4.0 GPA that's the issue, it might be the dull personality that goes with it. When I was at Touro and on the student ADCOM, me and the students on the ADCOM would ask them questions about what they like to do. If anyone ever answered these questions with "study, research, work", I'd immediately give them a zero. If they said "drink, party, play sports", then **** yeah I'm giving them a max grade on the interview". Also, sexy women got a preference too.

I'm pretty sure this carries on into the residency world.
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: ( what's wrong with research and working!

what if we drink AND do research. simultaneously. while being super hot. and have very defined abs.
 
desklamp said:
: ( what's wrong with research and working!

what if we drink AND do research. simultaneously. while being super hot. and have very defined abs.
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You're not supposed to like to do research and work in your off time, you do it because you have to.

I work to enable my party lifestyle and buy stuff for my car.
 
rxlea said:
Eat ritalin, add girls :meanie:

Or so they say.
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Ha. My coffee habit + ritalin = is the world shaking or is it just me? 😛

Maybe one day when I'm solid in my professional development I'll be able to workout, be social, and be good at my job, but for now, I have too damn much catching up to do in learning for all that
 
pharmasaur said:
looking at your signature....you're allowed to have more than one non-patient care APPE? USC only lets us have one max 🙁
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Not usually. Long story. Abbreviated version:

I did something uber nice that no one else wanted to do, which involved sacrificing something great. Then I got the short straw anyway. They found an alternative, which requires additional work for our Exp Educ director. Got a dream schedule. I'm buying her lunch. Win.
 
rxlea said:
Not usually. Long story. Abbreviated version:

I did something uber nice that no one else wanted to do, which involved sacrificing something great. Then I got the short straw anyway. They found an alternative, which requires additional work for our Exp Educ director. Got a dream schedule. I'm buying her lunch. Win.
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i am so jelly! i have no idea how im gonna pick between all the cool non-patient care APPES 4th yr.
 
pharmasaur said:
looking at your signature....you're allowed to have more than one non-patient care APPE? USC only lets us have one max 🙁
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We got two. I thought that was the standard, guess not.
 
Sorry to intrude again but...I'm starting I see where the Rho Chi stereotypes are coming from now.

So just...thought I'd retract some of my gung ho defense of all things Rho Chi. Good academics != good leadership, good participation, etc.

.....

Carry on.
 
desklamp said:
Sorry to intrude again but...I'm starting I see where the Rho Chi stereotypes are coming from now.

So just...thought I'd retract some of my gung ho defense of all things Rho Chi. Good academics != good leadership, good participation, etc.

.....

Carry on.
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Looking at who was wearing Rho Chi cords at graduation, I will say that many were the "total package" or at least not the stereotype sometimes depicted. OTOH, some were the classic stereotypical Straight A, no life experience types.

I think it is fair to say the only conclusion you can draw from Rho Chi is that the student had great grades. 😀
 
When I graduated, 8 out of the 10 people who received leadership awards their senior year were not Rho Chi.
 
owlegrad said:
Looking at who was wearing Rho Chi cords at graduation, I will say that many were the "total package" or at least not the stereotype sometimes depicted. OTOH, some were the classic stereotypical Straight A, no life experience types.

I think it is fair to say the only conclusion you can draw from Rho Chi is that the student had great grades. 😀
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Agreed!

Interestingly, at my school, the few who graduated summa cum laude (that's the highest one right) in the class graduating above me had barely any ECs.
 
desklamp said:
Agreed!

Interestingly, at my school, the few who graduated summa cum laude (that's the highest one right) in the class graduating above me had barely any ECs.
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Not true at all at my institution. I think it is absolutely absurd to say that having a 4.0 GPA is a bad thing. Its not like having a 3.2 GPA with the same amount of EC/research/etc makes you a better candidate. Some people are just efficient studiers and excellent test takers and are able to do it all while in pharmacy school. This 'debate' is a bunch of nonsense.
 
owlegrad said:
Looking at who was wearing Rho Chi cords at graduation, I will say that many were the "total package" or at least not the stereotype sometimes depicted. OTOH, some were the classic stereotypical Straight A, no life experience types.

I think it is fair to say the only conclusion you can draw from Rho Chi is that the student had great grades. 😀
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Most of ours were the total packages. Yes, we tended to be the competitive types, had plan on what we wanted to accomplish. Many wanted to go residency and clinical, others wanted to go into management, others were gunning for scholarship money to pay for school, etc. Having a near perfect GPA was just a part of the plan, the other parts of the plan was a hospital internships, as well as completing the picture with research and leadership experience. Most had all of those basis covered.

Of course there are one trick ponies in Rho Chi, but most at my school just had Rho Chi offered to us while off chasing our plans and goals.
 
desklamp said:
This might sound ridiculous, but I've read and been told enough times that a 4.0 GPA can be detrimental to a pharmacy application for residencies or jobs for me to want to dig into it further.

Anyone heard/experienced something like this?

And I'm not talking 4.0 GPA with nothing else to show for it. What about a candidate with a 4.0, research experience, abstracts, multiple leadership positions, volunteer, and work experience, or a 4.0 with a combination of the above? (not talking about me, by the way, just people I know).

I mean reading my post, the idea of academic excellence being harmful to someone's chances sounds absolutely ******ed, but there has been some cutthroat, jealousy related, petty stuff going down in pharmacy school (including bad-mouthing others to faculty and residency directors) I have been privvy to hearing about (though rumors only, of course) so I've lost a bit of faith in the system.

Thanks.
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Get real. There is no way that doing well in school could go against you.
 
pharm4312 said:
Get real. There is no way that doing well in school could go against you.
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Hah have you read some of the posts on SDN (granted not a large sample size)? You make it sound like no hiring manager would ever look at a 4.0/3.9 GPA and be more liable to scrutinize.

Anyway I asked because some of our P4s this year had a pretty good package but didn't match, as well as some people in this thread.

I'm sure certain areas/school think differently, esp. schools that have a high admittance rate of high achievers. And maybe "bad" is too extreme of a word.
 
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