4 year OMFS smear from MD plastics?

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Its pretty much old news. Its definitely dirty tactics by those behind the websites.

Bottom line is that its pretty hard to truthfully/factually argue against us performing these procedures since we are the ones that typically manage & treat the vast majority of craniomaxillofacial trauma, perform orthognathic surgery (the ultimate in cosmetic surgery), and treat facial tumors.

In a 4 year residency, the residents spend close to 3 years doing facial surgery. Plastics programs don't get 3 years of facial surgery experience.
 
I tend to think med school will make me a more qualified surgeon but I still think single degree surgeons are qualified enough to do anything within the scope of omfs. I also believe that one can seek more medical training without attending medical school and getting a medical degree. the 2 letters just let the public know that you have achieved a certain standardized educational level.
 
armorshell said:
This website is hilarious.

This is my favorite:
http://www.safeplasticsurgery.org/documents/comp_chart.pdf

I love how oral surgeons are committed to "30 months of clinical oral health" during a 4 year residency. Epic funny.
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"4 years medical school - 24 months devoted to learning Diagnosis and Management of the total patient."

What an absurd statement. First of all, only 16 months of clinical rotations are required while the rest of the 8 months are intermixed with useless electives and bull**** holidays. Second, I would argue that a medical student is less functional than a rotating nursing student because medical students do NOTHING MORE than talking to patients and performing scut work.

I like how plastic surgeons feel so threatened that they need to resort to dirty tactics.
 
Doggie said:
I like how plastic surgeons feel so threatened that they need to resort to dirty tactics.
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Is there even a huge amount of oral surgeons who go on to do primarily plastic surgery? I would think that most would eventually weigh the +'s and -'s of each scope and go with the bread and butter of OMFS.

ie. 1) the people they have to deal with: most people who want nose jobs for purely cosmetic reasons are unstable to begn with (correct me if I am wrong), vs. the person who needs impacted 3rds pulled.

2) The amount of $$ to be made, again bread and butter 3rds, implants vs. a 3 hour face lift, rhino, brow tuck, whatever, etc.

3) Do plastics feel this threatened by OS docs?

My gut feeling is that the people who started he website saw the superior work being done by OS and felt a little jealous, to the point that a website was developed.👍
 
1992Corolla said:
Is there even a huge amount of oral surgeons who go on to do primarily plastic surgery? I would think that most would eventually weigh the +'s and -'s of each scope and go with the bread and butter of OMFS.

ie. 1) the people they have to deal with: most people who want nose jobs for purely cosmetic reasons are unstable to begn with (correct me if I am wrong), vs. the person who needs impacted 3rds pulled.

2) The amount of $$ to be made, again bread and butter 3rds, implants vs. a 3 hour face lift, rhino, brow tuck, whatever, etc.

3) Do plastics feel this threatened by OS docs?

My gut feeling is that the people who started he website saw the superior work being done by OS and felt a little jealous, to the point that a website was developed.👍
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Don't you mean "cosmetic surgery"? When people say Plastic you are inferring that we are practicing someone else's specialty and outside our scope. Cosmetic facial surgery is fully within the scope of OMFS. I just want to make sure people reading this thread don't get confused.

I agree with you that teeth and titanium hold more $$ for us per hour than cosmetics (esp. if you factor in the amount of time most of the annoying cosmetic patients waste). However, even though I have little interest personally in practicing heaps of cosmetic facial surgery, I am a strong supporter of OMFS keeping current in this area of our scope.
 
Dr.Millisevert said:
Don't you mean "cosmetic surgery"? When people say Plastic you are inferring that we are practicing someone else's specialty and outside our scope. Cosmetic facial surgery is fully within the scope of OMFS. I just want to make sure people reading this thread don't get confused.

I agree with you that teeth and titanium hold more $$ for us per hour than cosmetics (esp. if you factor in the amount of time most of the annoying cosmetic patients waste). However, even though I have little interest personally in practicing heaps of cosmetic facial surgery, I am a strong supporter of OMFS keeping current in this area of our scope.
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Yes I meant cosmetic surgery and I also think that OMFS should keep this within their scope. That is why you guys receive the training you do...hence the name Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery.
 
1992Corolla said:
Yes I meant cosmetic surgery and I also think that OMFS should keep this within their scope. That is why you guys receive the training you do...hence the name Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery.
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👍
 
Doggie said:
"4 years medical school - 24 months devoted to learning Diagnosis and Management of the total patient."

What an absurd statement. First of all, only 16 months of clinical rotations are required while the rest of the 8 months are intermixed with useless electives and bull**** holidays. Second, I would argue that a medical student is less functional than a rotating nursing student because medical students do NOTHING MORE than talking to patients and performing scut work.

I like how plastic surgeons feel so threatened that they need to resort to dirty tactics.
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The best thing is that the fundamental argument isn't that 4 year OMFS don't have the ability to manage a patient and perform complex surgery; they admit on the website that OMFS rules surgery of the jaws. The only contention they're trying to make is that the DDS only guys don't get enough actual experience doing facial surgery, which makes most of the "Educational comparison" ridiculous.

One could argue that the classes they champion for years 3 and 4 of med school are just as unrelated to facial surgery as the ones listed for dental. Note that before a 6 year residents jumps up my bunghole, I'm not saying med school doesn't help prepare you to be a great surgeon, I'm just saying that rotating through pediatrics in med school teaches you as much about a blepharoplasty as doing an operative dentistry block in dental school.
 
Dr.Millisevert said:
Don't you mean "cosmetic surgery"? When people say Plastic you are inferring that we are practicing someone else's specialty and outside our scope. Cosmetic facial surgery is fully within the scope of OMFS. I just want to make sure people reading this thread don't get confused.
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I know this is lame but one of my all time biggest peeves is when OMFS people call cosmetic surgery "plastics" or "facial plastics." It really makes me want to puke every single time. I think it probably even affected my rank list. Plastic and reconstructive surgery is a VERY broad specialty and cosmetic surgery is probably one of the more basic things they do. Afterall, these PRS guys have 6-8 years of PGY training.
 
servitup said:
I know this is lame but one of my all time biggest peeves is when OMFS people call cosmetic surgery "plastics" or "facial plastics." It really makes me want to puke every single time. I think it probably even affected my rank list. Plastic and reconstructive surgery is a VERY broad specialty and cosmetic surgery is probably one of the more basic things they do. Afterall, these PRS guys have 6-8 years of PGY training.
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Yeah, crazy OMFS people trying to act like they have the skill and knowledge of a Periodontal Plastic Surgeon. Tsk, tsk.
 
haha, it's all good. oral and maxillofacial surgeons are called oral surgeons sometimes too. no need to riot 👍
 
dravid said:
haha, it's all good. oral and maxillofacial surgeons are called oral surgeons sometimes too. no need to riot 👍
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Maybe we should be encouraging more people to refer to us as "Maxfacs", or “Face surgeon”, or “Maxillofacial surgeons” rather than simply “oral surgeons” alone. The "oral" would of course be inferred in the title “Maxillofacial surgery”.

ENT …or now as they preferred to be referred to "Head and Neck Surgeons"; the Ears, Nose, and Throat, are similarly inferred as being encompassed in the new title.

Be careful allowing too many people to drop the “maxillofacial” half of our title as many fought hard to obtain it and it would be a shame to loose it.
👍
 
dravid said:
haha, it's all good. oral and maxillofacial surgeons are called oral surgeons sometimes too. no need to riot 👍
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A lot of physicians refer to us dual-degreers as "dentists with MD."
I like to think of those physicians as "nobodies with MD." :laugh:
 
Doggie said:
What an absurd statement. First of all, only 16 months of clinical rotations are required while the rest of the 8 months are intermixed with useless electives and bull**** holidays. Second, I would argue that a medical student is less functional than a rotating nursing student because medical students do NOTHING MORE than talking to patients and performing scut work.
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Yeah meanwhile dental students are running surgeries solo 🙄
 
MacGyver said:
Yeah meanwhile dental students are running surgeries solo 🙄
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Dental students perform irreversible procedures daily in years 3 and 4 of dental school. My big sis at school spent an afternoon last week laying an apically positioned flap and drilling bone out of her patients mandible. She's a 2nd year dental student, and this isn't an uncommon procedure to see in the clinics.

Besides that, his point was that years 3 and 4 of medical school are roughly equivalent to years 3 and 4 of dental school to learning technical facial surgery, in that you learn nothing of the sort.
 
armorshell said:
My big sis at school spent an afternoon last week laying an apically positioned flap and drilling bone out of her patients mandible.
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Sounds like some hardcore perio crown lengthening baby!!!!!
 
armorshell said:
Dental students perform irreversible procedures daily in years 3 and 4 of dental school. My big sis at school spent an afternoon last week laying an apically positioned flap and drilling bone out of her patients mandible. She's a 2nd year dental student, and this isn't an uncommon procedure to see in the clinics.
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Yeah well I did a heart transplant. Beat that! :laugh:
 
MacGyver said:
Yeah well I did a heart transplant. Beat that! :laugh:
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I got to saw off a foot on a general surgery rotation one time. It was kinda fun to hold a severed foot in your hands, but that procedure was less technical than the attachment of a wax sprue. No, seriously.
 
armorshell said:
Still 5x as much cutting as a med students will do outside of the anatomy lab.
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Oh please. I got that beat with back to back whipples! Not impressed. :laugh:
 
Before this turns into a pissing contest, lets jst say that the last 2 years of ed school are different from the last two years of dental school.

Facts:
Dental students do perform minor surgery in the mouth working by completely by themselves with supervision. The supervision is usually a dentist sitting in another room of the clinic sipping coffee.

The procedures are mostly (like 99%) irreversible. This includes everything from removal of alveolar bone, to tooth structure, to teeth themselves.

Dental students are responsible for the majority of the treatment planning with dentist input when necessary. They are responsible to know the medications the patient is taking along with the health histry and current health condition.

On the other hand:

Enlighten me with what med students do (I'm not being sarcastic I want to know) the last two years of med school. Do you get to perform surgery? Do you get to sit in? Hold a retractor? Suction?

Are you in charge of any patients or are you under the direct supervision of another doc?

Clinic?

Just curious before this thread goes nowhere fast.
 
Two Words: Varaztad Kazanjian.

OMFS's, Dentist's, and MD's would all benefit from reading the article linked above.

It describes Varaztad Kazanjian, the American Dentist who essentially started modern Plastic Surgery by doing huge reconstructive surgeries on WW1 soldiers. A few other surgeries he commonly performed in the early 1900's: Cleft Palate reconstruction, orthognathics, bone grafts, TMJ surgeries, Maxillofacial prosthetic reconstructions, etc.

He was named Harvard's first Professor of Plastic Surgery. So actually, Dentists have allowed MD's to take on and eventually claim for themselves the specialty of Plastic Surgery.

Any MD who claims OMFS is encroaching on their turf or practicing outside their scope in any way by doing major head and neck surgeries or cosmetic surgeries is an uneducated fool.
 
Dentists developed the first anaesthetics as well. Imagine if anesthesiologists created a site decrying dentists for sedating their patients

bu..bu..but...they don't have MD after their name!! *runs crying to teacher*
 
dravid said:
Dentists developed the first anaesthetics as well. Imagine if anesthesiologists created a site decrying dentists for sedating their patients

bu..bu..but...they don't have MD after their name!! *runs crying to teacher*
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I don't think they're worried about us when they have nurses doing the same job these days in the US.
 
no matter how slimy and shady that website is, OMFS folk who practice plastic surgery should set up a rebuttal website. the average person can be easily swayed by such a website.
 
fightingspirit said:
no matter how slimy and shady that website is, OMFS folk who practice plastic surgery should set up a rebuttal website. the average person can be easily swayed by such a website.
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I agree with what you're saying.. however, please use the term "cosmetic surgery" and not "plastic surgery". The two terms mean very different things. 👍
 
1992Corolla said:
Enlighten me with what med students do (I'm not being sarcastic I want to know) the last two years of med school. Do you get to perform surgery? Do you get to sit in? Hold a retractor? Suction?

Are you in charge of any patients or are you under the direct supervision of another doc?

Clinic?

Just curious before this thread goes nowhere fast.
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From what I've seen at the hospital where I work, med students on their rotations are basically interns but to a lesser capacity. When they are rotating thru surgical rotations, I've seen them hold sticks and depending on the chief, they would be able to help close a case after all the "good stuff" was done. But mostly scut work. You gotta remember Medicine is not all about surgery though. During my internal medicine rotation, the medicine intern would be in charge of up to 11 patients, OMFS interns would take up to 6, and med students would get up to 2 (but if they were good, we would dump...I mean allow them to treat more😀). Just like dental school, there would be the bottom of the barrell and the the superstars. I remember seeing total train wrecks and then there were those that knew more than the medicine intern. So yes, they do get to take care of patients and get their hands a little dirty....at least at Highland.
 
flat4 said:
From what I've seen at the hospital where I work, med students on their rotations are basically interns but to a lesser capacity. When they are rotating thru surgical rotations, I've seen them hold sticks and depending on the chief, they would be able to help close a case after all the "good stuff" was done. But mostly scut work. You gotta remember Medicine is not all about surgery though. During my internal medicine rotation, the medicine intern would be in charge of up to 11 patients, OMFS interns would take up to 6, and med students would get up to 2 (but if they were good, we would dump...I mean allow them to treat more😀). Just like dental school, there would be the bottom of the barrell and the the superstars. I remember seeing total train wrecks and then there were those that knew more than the medicine intern. So yes, they do get to take care of patients and get their hands a little dirty....at least at Highland.
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Nice. I knew a guy at Temple med who was doing some neat stuff as a 4th year med student, so I was curious. That is if you think placing a femoral line is neat. Again, in my ignorance I am unsure as to how cool this is. His story was interesting though. The lady was comatose, weighed 400 lbs and for some reason he was told to place the line. He said he had to use surgical tape to strap her 'extremities' (gut) out of the way. He was sweating and taping and poking and I am sure someone out in the hall was laughing.👍
 
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