4 year residency programs

[emericana]

I remember reading a post on here a few months ago about a 4 year program in Philly associated with Temple. I cant for the life of me (used the search engine) find this post.

I remember the post said that this 4 year PA residency was "one of the only" 4 year programs in the country.

What are the other 4 year programs that exist? Does anyone know off the top of their head? I would imagine these programs are very competitive?

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[DPMer]

I remember reading a post on here a few months ago about a 4 year program in Philly associated with Temple. I cant for the life of me (used the search engine) find this post.

I remember the post said that this 4 year PA residency was "one of the only" 4 year programs in the country.

What are the other 4 year programs that exist? Does anyone know off the top of their head? I would imagine these programs are very competitive?

1) Temple University Hospital: Philly
2) Wyckoff Heights Medical Center: Bronx, NY
3) Penn Presbyterian Medical Center: Philly
4) St Barnabbas Hospital: Brooklyn, NY
5) University of Pittsburgh Medical Center/Mercy
6) Interfaith Medical Center: Brooklyn, NY

 

[347932]

1) Temple University Hospital: Philly
2) Wyckoff Heights Medical Center: Bronx, NY
3) Penn Presbyterian Medical Center: Philly
4) St Barnabbas Hospital: Brooklyn, NY
5) University of Pittsburgh Medical Center/Mercy
6) Interfaith Medical Center: Brooklyn, NY

Didn't realize there were that many 4 year programs out there.

 

[DPMer]

Didn't realize there were that many 4 year programs out there.

I am just wondering what is the premise/purpose of a 4 year program? Also, how did APMA come up with the number 3 as the number of years for podiatry residency training for the VISON 2015? Why 3? Why not 2 or 4? Is there a statistical research paper out there to choose 3 years? As opposed to Foot and Ankle MD and DO orthopods, their training requires 1 year of internship (PGY-1), 4 years of residency (PGY-2 to PGY-5), and 2 to 3 years of fellowship in foot and ankle (PGY 6 to PGY-7 or PGY-8) for a total hospital training of 7 to 8 years, in addition to their 4 years of medical school!

11 to 12 years total training to become a MD or DO foot and ankle orthopod , versus 6 to 8 years total training for a podiatrist .

 

[Podfather]

I am just wondering what is the premise/purpose of a 4 year program? Also, how did APMA come up with the number 3 as the number of years for podiatry residency training for the VISON 2015? Why 3? Why not 2 or 4? Is there a statistical research paper out there to choose 3 years? As opposed to Foot and Ankle MD and DO orthopods, their training requires 1 year of internship (PGY-1), 4 years of residency (PGY-2 to PGY-5), and 2 to 3 years of fellowship in foot and ankle (PGY 6 to PGY-7 or PGY-8) for a total hospital training of 7 to 8 years, in addition to their 4 years of medical school!

11 to 12 years total training to become a MD or DO foot and ankle orthopod , versus 6 to 8 years total training for a podiatrist .

Fellowships are typically 1 year.

 

[347932]

I am just wondering what is the premise/purpose of a 4 year program? Also, how did APMA come up with the number 3 as the number of years for podiatry residency training for the VISON 2015? Why 3? Why not 2 or 4? Is there a statistical research paper out there to choose 3 years? As opposed to Foot and Ankle MD and DO orthopods, their training requires 1 year of internship (PGY-1), 4 years of residency (PGY-2 to PGY-5), and 2 to 3 years of fellowship in foot and ankle (PGY 6 to PGY-7 or PGY-8) for a total hospital training of 7 to 8 years, in addition to their 4 years of medical school!

11 to 12 years total training to become a MD or DO foot and ankle orthopod , versus 6 to 8 years total training for a podiatrist .

Just as a correction to your statement. Foot and Ankle Fellowship trained Orthos spend AT MOST one year in the fellowship, although most only spend 6 months. And, according to an AMA article published several years ago, they are NOT being trained by Fellowship trained Foot and Ankle Orthos. They are being trained by General Orthos or, get this, Podiatrists.

In the past other than the one or two four year programs (there are more now of course), the MOST training you could get was three years of residency. For instance, I did a Primary Podiatric Medicine Residency for one year, followed by a two year surgical program (not at the same institution) specifically designed for those of us that had had a year already. Obviously, neither of these options are available anymore, but that's how some of us got the three years.This was the standard by which the ABPS let graduates sit for the RRA examination, so I guess that was the litmus test behind the new system.

That would be a great question to ask the CPME reps at their annual meeting in Boston during the APMA Annual Scientific Meeting, the last weekend of July.

 

[DPMer]

Just as a correction to your statement. Foot and Ankle Fellowship trained Orthos spend AT MOST one year in the fellowship, although most only spend 6 months. And, according to an AMA article published several years ago, they are NOT being trained by Fellowship trained Foot and Ankle Orthos. They are being trained by General Orthos or, get this, Podiatrists.

In the past other than the one or two four year programs (there are more now of course), the MOST training you could get was three years of residency. For instance, I did a Primary Podiatric Medicine Residency for one year, followed by a two year surgical program (not at the same institution) specifically designed for those of us that had had a year already. Obviously, neither of these options are available anymore, but that's how some of us got the three years.This was the standard by which the ABPS let graduates sit for the RRA examination, so I guess that was the litmus test behind the new system.

That would be a great question to ask the CPME reps at their annual meeting in Boston during the APMA Annual Scientific Meeting, the last weekend of July.

WOW! Only 1 year post grad training for foot and ankle medicine and surgery for the orthopods, compared to podiatry's 2 to 4 years post grad training??

If the F&A fellowship is only 1 year, then I am presuming that podiatrists have more prowess in terms of skills and knowledge of foot and ankle medicine and surgery. We do 6 to 8 years (pod school+2 to 4 years residency) as opposed to orthos doing 1 year of fellowship. I mean, do they get ENOUGH THOROUGH foot and ankle medicine and surgery in their general orthopedics residency (PGY 2 to PGY 5) comparable to podiatry? I just get the simple impression that podiatrists have more Post-Graduate training for foot and ankle medicine and surgery (2 to 4 years) as opposed to the orthos (1 year). The 4 year general ortho residency training seems to "neglect" foot and ankle medicine and surgery overall imho, with probably at most trauma (pilons, achilles tears, rearfoot) and not much or no forefoot.

 

[DPMer]

The main point for me is: if anyone decides to become a foot and ankle doctor, it is simple common sense to pursue the podiatry route because the time of total training is less compared to the orthopedic route. Not just that, the podiatry route provides much more time, detail, and depth of training overall. I mean, during the PGY-1 to PGY-5 periods for a DO or MD in an ortho residency, how much foot and ankle medicine and surgery are they exposed to compared to medicine and surgery of the shoulder, knees, hips, elbow, spine, or hand and wrist? I dont think it is much. Foot and ankle medicine and surgery is neglected overall in a 5 year ortho residency program in any US teaching hospital. That's where podiatry becomes very valuable in the US healthcare system. It fills a "deficiency" in foot and ankle medicine and surgery that is present in orthopedics today.

 

[DPMer]

It is interesting how hand fellowships are 2 to 3 years long. Compared to foot and ankle fellowships that are only 6 months to 1 year long. Orthopedics dont like feet that much?

 

[347932]

Orthopedics dont like feet that much?

They don't, unless it's trauma related. They don't touch diabetic foot wounds, do virtually NO soft tissue work, and don't really do much elective foot and ankle surgery either. Go figure.

 

[DPMer]

They don't, unless it's trauma related. They don't touch diabetic foot wounds, do virtually NO soft tissue work, and don't really do much elective foot and ankle surgery either. Go figure.

WHAT?!!! If so, then why do foot and ankle orthopods get much more political voice in their work place and in the general public compared to podiatrists? A newly hired foot and ankle orthopod fresh out of a 6 month or 1 year fellowship will get higher pay in an ortho group compared to a podiatrist fresh out of a 4 year residency in some instances. Where is the fairness? mad:

 

[347932]

WHAT?!!! If so, then why do foot and ankle orthopods get much more political voice in their work place and in the general public compared to podiatrists? A newly hired foot and ankle orthopod fresh out of a 6 month or 1 year fellowship will get higher pay in an ortho group compared to a podiatrist fresh out of a 4 year residency in some instances. Where is the fairness? mad:

Life isn't fair Bubba. You make your own luck.

 

[DPMer]

Life isn't fair Bubba. You make your own luck.

Now I truly respect Kidsfeet, PodFather, and PADPM for making their own good luck in this unfair world of US healthcare with these foot and ankle orthopods getting all the "perks" and "favors".

 

[PADPM]

1) Temple University Hospital: Philly
2) Wyckoff Heights Medical Center: Bronx, NY
3) Penn Presbyterian Medical Center: Philly
4) St Barnabbas Hospital: Brooklyn, NY
5) University of Pittsburgh Medical Center/Mercy
6) Interfaith Medical Center: Brooklyn, NY

Are you SURE that all of these programs are 4 years???? I was just on the residency website of Wycoff, Interfaith and University of Pittsburgh and their sites said the programs were 3 years.

 

[DPMer]

Now I truly respect Kidsfeet, PodFather, and PADPM for making their own good luck in this unfair world of US healthcare with these foot and ankle orthopods getting all the "perks" and "favors".

I can at least find relief that CMS (Medicare)and private health insurance companies (ex. Aetna, or Keystone Healthplan East) will reimburse the same fee for the same procedure (i.e. Lapidus procedure with the 60 to 90 day global period) for both the podiatrist and the foot and ankle orthopod.

This equal pay by insurance companies helps to distract me from the scenario where the partner(s) and owner of a group ortho practice pays the annual gross salary of a foot and ankle orthopod associate $10K or even higher (for example only) than the annual gross salary of a podiatrist associate with even more skills and knowledge of foot and ankle medicine and surgery! Probably better to work for a group podiatry practice instead. At least more "fairness" overall for newly hired associates by the owner and the partner(s) of the medicine and surgery staff.

 

[DPMer]

Are you SURE that all of these programs are 4 years???? I was just on the residency website of Wycoff, Interfaith and University of Pittsburgh and their sites said the programs were 3 years.

Yes, PADPM, they are all 4 years. There are currently 6 programs nationwide that offer 4 year programs (2 in Philadelphia, 1 in Pittsburgh, and 3 in the Big Apple). Check the annual salary for confirmation. Although the program says PM&S-36, they offer 1 extra year of salaried training for the resident. You have to go to the CASPR/CRIP website, which is more current and accurate.

Go to www.casprcrip.org. Go to participating programs for podiatry residencies 2011.

 

[FALL06]

1) Temple University Hospital: Philly
2) Wyckoff Heights Medical Center: Bronx, NY
3) Penn Presbyterian Medical Center: Philly
4) St Barnabbas Hospital: Brooklyn, NY
5) University of Pittsburgh Medical Center/Mercy
6) Interfaith Medical Center: Brooklyn, NY

Wyckoff has a 4 year and a 2 year program, but it's not in the Bronx, it's in Brooklyn.

Interfaith had a 2 year and 3 year program...is now offering (2) 3 year positions...but was never a 4 year program. They offer a fellowship in Ortho...but this fellow rarely covers foot and ankle cases.

New York Hospital of Queens is a 4 year program in Queens NY.

 

[PADPM]

I can at least find relief that CMS (Medicare)and private health insurance companies (ex. Aetna, or Keystone Healthplan East) will reimburse the same fee for the same procedure (i.e. Lapidus procedure with the 60 to 90 day global period) for both the podiatrist and the foot and ankle orthopod.

This equal pay by insurance companies helps to distract me from the scenario where the partner(s) and owner of a group ortho practice pays the annual gross salary of a foot and ankle orthopod associate $10K or even higher (for example only) than the annual gross salary of a podiatrist associate with even more skills and knowledge of foot and ankle medicine and surgery! Probably better to work for a group podiatry practice instead. At least more "fairness" overall for newly hired associates by the owner and the partner(s) of the medicine and surgery staff.

Sorry to burst your bubble big guy, but your comments aren't accurate. I believe that in some areas in the state of Pennsylvania (you've mentioned Keystone Health Plan East, which I believe is a PA insurance, hence the name "Keystone"), Keystone and Aetna are capitated with podiatry and not orthopedics.

That means that ALL services provided by the podiatrist, including surgery would be covered by the capitated fee. That same patient could be seen by an orthopedic surgeon and be paid fee for service.

Unfortunately, it's the fault of the podiatrists, since THEY allowed this to happen.

And to burst your bubble even more, most foot and ankle orthopods starting salaries are SIGNIFICANTLY greater than 10k more than a starting DPM. I would say on average, the starting salary is probably at least double.

 

[DPMer]

Sorry to burst your bubble big guy, but your comments aren't accurate. I believe that in some areas in the state of Pennsylvania (you've mentioned Keystone Health Plan East, which I believe is a PA insurance, hence the name "Keystone"), Keystone and Aetna are capitated with podiatry and not orthopedics.

That means that ALL services provided by the podiatrist, including surgery would be covered by the capitated fee. That same patient could be seen by an orthopedic surgeon and be paid fee for service.

Unfortunately, it's the fault of the podiatrists, since THEY allowed this to happen.

And to burst your bubble even more, most foot and ankle orthopods starting salaries are SIGNIFICANTLY greater than 10k more than a starting DPM. I would say on average, the starting salary is probably at least double.

I just get more surprised the more experience wisdom I get! Thanks PADPM for the reality bites check.

 

[DPMer]

Wyckoff has a 4 year and a 2 year program, but it's not in the Bronx, it's in Brooklyn.

Interfaith had a 2 year and 3 year program...is now offering (2) 3 year positions...but was never a 4 year program. They offer a fellowship in Ortho...but this fellow rarely covers foot and ankle cases.

New York Hospital of Queens is a 4 year program in Queens NY.

Which means there are 7 programs nationwide that are 4 years long. The PM&S 36 program for Interfaith is 4 years. Check www.casprcrip.org.

 

[air bud]

Dpmer you make my brain hurt.

 

[UW66]

GymMan, Thetachi, Darklord......now those were some true classics!

 

[PADPM]

Dpmer you make my brain hurt.

 

[Foot Doc]

WHAT?!!! If so, then why do foot and ankle orthopods get much more political voice in their work place and in the general public compared to podiatrists? A newly hired foot and ankle orthopod fresh out of a 6 month or 1 year fellowship will get higher pay in an ortho group compared to a podiatrist fresh out of a 4 year residency in some instances. Where is the fairness? mad:

they specialize in feet, but unlike us, are not limited to feet. They can be much more valuable to an orthopaedic group because of this.

 

[FALL06]

Which means there are 7 programs nationwide that are 4 years long. The PM&S 36 program for Interfaith is 4 years. Check www.casprcrip.org.

That site was updated Sept of 2010. I've rotated through the program and it's 3 years. Some residents may have issues with numbers and stay an extra year...but it's 3 year program.

 

[NebraskaFoot]

Are you SURE that all of these programs are 4 years???? I was just on the residency website of Wycoff, Interfaith and University of Pittsburgh and their sites said the programs were 3 years.

UPMC is not a 4 year program. There is one PMS-48 spot which is a fellowship with Dr Wukich (A foot and ankle orthopaedic surgeon who isthe director of the Foot and Ankle Division at the University). The rest of the residents (5 of the 6) are on a three year track.

 

[MaseratiGT]

GymMan, Thetachi, Darklord......now those were some true classics!

I think I got an ulcer from GymMan...nice rewind tho

 

[jonwill]

I still just can't imagine doing 4 years of residency.

 

[Feli]

GymMan, Thetachi, Darklord......now those were some true classics!

All I ask is that whiskers eventually finds his (her?) way back to SDN. I can dream..