Apr 5, 2003
3,688
128
Peoples's Democratic Republic of NY
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
Way to derail the thread again. So you're saying military medicine is not at all the same as being in the military ? You're not actually military as a military physician and nothing that involves the organization as a whole has anything to do with you?

22 year olds considering military scholarships for med school should only be concerned with not getting all 30 days of leave or not having the best residencies? They are completely exempt from the issues that their slightly younger counterparts will deal with when enlisting?

If you look at my past threads, you will probably realize that I am not a big fan of milmed. There are too many issues. If I post the most recent problem that I have run into, even the most ardent supporters would have to step back and think about it (can't do it now - maybe once I drop my resignation paperwork. It's a small world). However, your entry into this thread ["fighting Al Qaeda while our government sends them 100s of millions of dollars and weapons."] was way over the top, and borders on UCMJable if an AD person were to openly state such an opinion. Your clearance would certainly be in question. I am not arguing the validity of your opinions, or your right to express them. However, this is probably not the thread for it. Just because you don't like the US gov leadership, you served as PFC Snuffy for a few years, and you are a "pre-med" (whatever that actually means), doesn't mean that your opinion belongs in a thread discussing serving in the Medical Corps
 
Last edited:
About the Ads

deuist

Stealthfully Sarcastic
15+ Year Member
Jun 14, 2004
4,535
445
Florida
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
They are completely exempt from the issues that their slightly younger counterparts will deal with when enlisting?

For the most part, yes. Think about the fresh enlisted crowd versus what we go through: we won't ever live in dorms. Our leadership is murky (i.e., I don't have majors and lieutenant colonels telling me what to do on a regular basis versus junior airmen and their sergeants). Physicians are non-combatants. A doc can fail every PT test during his entire pay back and can still can be promoted. It happened at my base. A doc can get an Article 15 and still make O-5. At some bases the leadership turns a blind eye to physicians' coming to work while not in uniform.

Instead, listen to what the complaints are here on SDN. We are frequently lied to about residency and fellowship opportunities. CME is gone. Our pay is 1/2 to 1/3 of what our civilian counterparts make. Our electronic medical records system is from the 1980's, frequently crashes, and leaves us without ways to order basic tests like X-rays. Speaking of radiology, that often goes down, too. Senior leadership uses non-scientifically validated metrics to judge quality. The junior enlisted crowd won't care one bit about the plight of doctors, nor should they. As far as your multiple rants that this thread is going to turn 17-year-olds off of the military, you are very misguided. A 17-year-old stumbling on SDN would take one look at this thread, get a glazed over look, and click the "back" button to head back to Google.
 

futuredoc331

7+ Year Member
Apr 29, 2012
507
146
Status (Visible)
  1. Pre-Medical
For the most part, yes. Think about the fresh enlisted crowd versus what we go through: we won't ever live in dorms. Our leadership is murky (i.e., I don't have majors and lieutenant colonels telling me what to do on a regular basis versus junior airmen and their sergeants). Physicians are non-combatants. A doc can fail every PT test during his entire pay back and can still can be promoted. It happened at my base. A doc can get an Article 15 and still make O-5. At some bases the leadership turns a blind eye to physicians' coming to work while not in uniform.

Instead, listen to what the complaints are here on SDN. We are frequently lied to about residency and fellowship opportunities. CME is gone. Our pay is 1/2 to 1/3 of what our civilian counterparts make. Our electronic medical records system is from the 1980's, frequently crashes, and leaves us without ways to order basic tests like X-rays. Speaking of radiology, that often goes down, too. Senior leadership uses non-scientifically validated metrics to judge quality. The junior enlisted crowd won't care one bit about the plight of doctors, nor should they. As far as your multiple rants that this thread is going to turn 17-year-olds off of the military, you are very misguided. A 17-year-old stumbling on SDN would take one look at this thread, get a glazed over look, and click the "back" button to head back to Google.

Come on now, I'm starting to get bored responding to the same things. You guys love derailing the thread don't you?

Your post was great up until the end. Neither my initial comment, or my defenses of it, were aimed to dissuade 17 year old kids thinking of the military. It was one reason why someone should really think about not joining the military today whether they are going in as an enlisted grunt, intel, medic , JAG corps, or physician.

When you enter the military in any of those capacities you represent the military as a whole. You are a part of the military as a whole. To anyone outside of the military you are the same as every other servicememner. Your actions support the organization.

A person considering taking a scholarship and signing a commitment to serve should understand current and future political issues in regards to their job just as much as every other issue. The military is one of a few occupations where that is true, but that doesn't invalidate it.

If anyone disagrees with what I posted let's chat it out in a different thread. Otherwise, stop making me respond to alerts saying my post was quoted.

Cheers
 

futuredoc331

7+ Year Member
Apr 29, 2012
507
146
Status (Visible)
  1. Pre-Medical
I've never met anyone that got prosecuted on an Art 88 infraction. However, with electronic media one has to be prudent.

The thing about this whole "debate" is I never asked these guys to say anything contemptuous about anyone.

Hell, I didn't even say anything about anyone. I made a statement regarding the use of certain forms of financial and military aid to certain groups and countries.

Nobody needed to agree or disagree. Even if they disagreed that's okay. The snarky comments are where the problem was.
 

Gastrapathy

no longer apathetic
10+ Year Member
Feb 27, 2007
5,448
4,895
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
Been a while since I've had to bust out the ignore. Allen, these people would have been a real resource for you over the next decade+ that you'll be someone's female dog, but you've tossed that away for an argument about nothing. Reminds me of that Ridley guy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

pgg

Laugh at me, will they?
Administrator
Volunteer Staff
15+ Year Member
Dec 15, 2005
13,403
12,969
Home again
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
Come on now, I'm starting to get bored responding to the same things. You guys love derailing the thread don't you?

If you're bored, then go away. Multiple people have explained to you why your initial "contribution" was completely irrelevant to the topic of this thread, which is a compilation of reasons for physicians and pre-meds to not to join the military. Moreover, it has been explicitly pointed out that political criticism of our civilian leadership is at best inappropriate and at worst UCMJ'able for active duty officers. You still don't get it. It's as if you're deliberately choosing to not understand. We're not interested in that line of discussion.

People like you come through here a couple times per year: prior or current military, usually enlisted but sometimes prior line officers, who think that their experience gives them useful insight to life as a military physician. It doesn't. It's not. They get defensive and upset when we refute or dismiss their opinions, just as you are.


Here's the bottom line: People don't read these join/don't-join threads because they're interested in discussing politics. They are people who have decided to be physicians and want to know how training and practice in the military compares to training and practice as civilians. They're not teenagers trying to find their way in the world, thinking about enlisting. They are adults who have their **** together who visit the Military Medicine forum of the Student Doctor Network to get information about being a doctor in the military.

Give them some credit - if they're considering joining the military, they've already decided what they think about all that political crap before they get here.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users

futuredoc331

7+ Year Member
Apr 29, 2012
507
146
Status (Visible)
  1. Pre-Medical
We will have to agree to disagree then. I don't think 20-22 year old kids have a complete idea about anything, let alone the muddy waters of politics.
 
Jan 21, 2014
6
1
Status (Visible)
  1. Resident [Any Field]
My wife and I ran the numbers both for the HSPS before medical school and for the FAP before residency. Either way, the numbers just don't make sense. Even for the low-paying specialties, I doubt you would even break even considering that most federal student loans can be consolidated at a ridiculously low rate which for us amounts to about $500 bucks a month until I die (and at 43 I might be dead before I finish paying it back).

I'm perpetually surprised at how scared people are of debt. Granted, a 50,000dollar credit card balance for personal watercraft and hooker sandwiches is probably a bad idea but the couple hundered thousand investment in human capitol represented by medical school loans pays big dividends and is just the cost of doing business.

I can see your point about most of the items on your list. Still, I don't understand the trouble people have with one through six. Isn't that the whole point of military medicine, to deploy with the troops?

Uhhh I ran the numbers too (taking into account me being a neonatologist in the future) no matter what military medicine was the best financial option for me, even with the money lost being a neonatologist in the military where as in the civilian side starting out pay is 350,000.
 
Jan 21, 2014
6
1
Status (Visible)
  1. Resident [Any Field]
Oh my gosh the things you are complaining about are ridiculous, you seem like a very depressed and unhappy person. Yeah there are a ton of things that suck about the military but to be this unhappy about it is just pathological.... your experience int he military is 99% dependent on your attitude in life
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

colbgw02

Delightfully Tacky
15+ Year Member
Dec 9, 2004
4,492
2,793
By the guy with the thing at the place
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
Uhhh I ran the numbers too (taking into account me being a neonatologist in the future) no matter what military medicine was the best financial option for me, even with the money lost being a neonatologist in the military where as in the civilian side starting out pay is 350,000.

Dude, you're replying to a post from 2006.
 
About the Ads

bricktamland

Duos habet et bene pendentes
10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Jul 25, 2007
125
58
"No one's semen is in Uranus."

That quote is from a transcribed medical report I received in my CHCS queue recently. No it wasn't a colonoscopy report. It was from a CT urinary stone protocol I dictated. What I actually said was, "no stone is seen in the ureters." That is just one example of a myriad of butchered reports I have to painstakingly repair every day. Another example was a "Hill-Sachs lesion" being mangled into a "heel socks lesion." Nearly every report I receive back is riddled with botched words and errors with spelling, grammar and syntax (despite my efforts to speak slowly and enunciate). I waste hours every day fixing reports that could instead be better utilized toward some inane mandated online training. The transcribed reports are also back-logged on an order of weeks and we have providers and patients complaining routinely. Unfortunately, the transcription service falls under a different department and we little power other than to complain to our higher-ups. A voice-recognition system is on the horizon, but I will be shocked if its implemented any time near its projected launch date. No private practice could ever survive being run this way.

Anyway, I can't remember if substandard support staff was already mentioned, but if not, add that to the list.
 

navdoc47

10+ Year Member
Sep 18, 2006
72
5
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
31 reasons to not join, from my perspective. In no particular order

1. Low pay for specialties (rad/ortho/ent)
2. Deployments
3. PT
4. Bad base locations (middle-of-nowhere Missouri, Kansas, Louisiana, other flyover holes)
5. Your spouse doesn't matter if (s)he is not military as far as assignments
6. Required military online training is often an insult to your intelligence (How to dress when it's cold)
7. Your colleague may be a total *****, but since he has been in for longer, he outranks you, and makes more money
8. Your commander below POTUS is a nurse
9. Your nurse probably outranks you
10. You are automatically demoted to "provider" level, where you are in the same group as the RN, LPN, DC, DPM, PA, DDS, social worker, etc.
11. Want CME? Go pay for it yourself.
12. Want to go away for the weekend? Nope – your "Cold Weather training" is not up-to-date. Not allowed. Anywhere you go, they need to give you permission.
13. Meetings, meetings to schedule meetings, meetings to schedule meetings about having a meeting. You are (involuntarily) invited.
14. Do you have a serious illness? They will never release you unless you are dead.
15. Potential stop-loss
16. IRR leaves you vulnerable to call-up
17. Lazy, incompetent civilians that can't be fired due to union protection
18. You have to go to meetings where they remind you not to rape women
19. Old equipment that your command won't replace.
20. They do anything possible to extend your commitment. Want to get your (ISP) bonus in your last year? Ooops, you just signed up for 4 more months
21. Need medical care? Go see how many times your physician has been sued or disciplined before he ended up washing up at your MTF
22. Forced, often unnecessary, often dangerous vaccines. Refusal lead to prosecution.
23. Drug tests at 4 am. Someone actually watching you urinate into a cup. The fact that drugs stay in your system for days is lost on them.
24. You can be forced to undergo an invasive medical treatment against your will
25. Your social security number is posted everywhere for thieves to take
26. There is no incentive to improve your skills. No matter how good or bad you are, you still have your job.
27. Progressive skill rot. Cases seen will not allow you to keep up your skills
28. Moonlighting is considered a privilege, even though it is needed to keep up #27
29. Want a fellowship? Minimum of 2 years extra commitment
30. Three letters – G M O
31. Residency training of variable, borderline deficient quality.

Well said. I especially enjoyed #18
 
Apr 5, 2003
3,688
128
Peoples's Democratic Republic of NY
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
REBUTTAL (I agree with some though)

.
Thanks for the some, I guess? Talk to you when (and if) you graduate from your premed status.

I'll briefly address
4-google army vs AF
8-look up the credentials of the surgeon general
11-get a clue
14-You have absolutely no clue, none whatsoever about this subject and the draconian regulations applicable only to the MC
21-get another clue. You have no idea what you are talking about as you were never involved in credentials. I am.
28- This gave me a chuckle. Here is another former enlisted coolaid drinker who thinks he knows everything, and has talked to everyone. WRONG.
30-It's not that I didn't know - it's the fact that it's still used in 2014. Pure malpractice, government-sanctioned.
31-Wow, thanks?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

dr zaius

10+ Year Member
Oct 27, 2008
1,368
418
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
yes probably.

any additional insight?
I don't think anyone has an issue with exercise and maintaining fitness standards. I think the issue is that PT seems to be put on a higher pedastal than clinical activities in many cases.

My popcorn emoticon was in response to you punching the hornet's nest.
 

HighPriest

Specialized in diseases of the head holes
10+ Year Member
Jan 1, 2008
2,380
3,186
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
Ok, ef it. I'll chime in.

1. Low pay for specialties (rad/ortho/ent) Shouldn't join military for money

Totally agreed. I make that point all the time.

2. Deployments embrace the suck

'Truf. I don't complain about deployments because, well, that's the job. That being said, the thread is entitled "reasons not to join," which to me means the OP wanted to document his reasons for avoiding service. Unless you want to deploy, this is probably one most people would agree with. It just depends upon whether that's a deal breaker or not.

3. PT Seriously? Exercise is a reason not to join?

Yeah, I don't sweat the PT. I would venture to assume the actual complaint is making PT more of a priority than patient care. I have not personally had that experience, but it seems like a LOT of people have. If that were the case, I'd have issue with it, too.

4. Bad base locations (middle-of-nowhere Missouri, Kansas, Louisiana, other flyover holes)Travis, San Diego, Andrews, San Antonio? Agreed-some army bases are no bueno but there are others that are awesome.

But some are not awesome. I would say "uncertainty" is the reason not to join here. If you absolutely can't live in BF Kansas, you may want to reconsider.

5. Your spouse doesn't matter if (s)he is not military as far as assignments agreed; spouse's career may take a hit.

'Truf

6. Required military online training is often an insult to your intelligence (How to dress when it's cold) It's easy and does not take long. I take online training for my current job (not in military) also.

I have to agree with OP. It takes quite a bit of time to actually keep up to date. So much so that we're required to spend at least half a day every month trying to work towards what seems like an unattainable goal of being in the green. They won't let me schedule clinic or non-emergent surgery during that time. That may sound like a good thing, but my goal is patient care, not personally owned vehicle inspections. You're not going to easily find a civilian physician with that amount of ancillary training.

7. Your colleague may be a total *****, but since he has been in for longer, he outranks you, and makes more money There are *****s everywhere. I have worked with *****s in military and civilian hospitals.

Yeah, idiots abound. Not sure that ever goes away.

8. Your commander below POTUS is a nurse Sometimes, yes.

...Probably shouldn't comment....all I'll say is that the priorities in Army medicine have changed dramatically, and I don't believe in the most efficient, patient-centered way. I personally think that May be because of an unusual command perspective....

9. Your nurse probably outranks you So? She still takes orders when it comes to patient care and you make more money.

Usually. I have had run-ins with nurses who try to pull rank. My response has been to not give a crap about their rank when it comes to patient care, and so far command has been supportive. -Some- of those nurses make more than you think. I was floored when I found out what my circulating nurse brings in.

10. You are automatically demoted to "provider" level, where you are in the same group as the RN, LPN, DC, DPM, PA, DDS, social worker, etc. ?? Elaborate?

I believe that he means the Army views you as all being in one pot: physicians, nurses, chiropractors, ARNPs, CRNAs, PAs. Usually not an issue for me, but it ain't that way outside the DOD. I have seen this as an issue when, for example, the majority group (nurses) lobby command for changes that then effect all providers. But again, not the biggest hang up for me.

11. Want CME? Go pay for it yourself. Not true, at least in Air Force hospital I was in.

Definitely true. They used to pay for CME out the whazoo, but since we stopped rolling over third world countries that fountain has run dry. They pay for exactly zero CME currently.

12. Want to go away for the weekend? Nope – your "Cold Weather training" is not up-to-date. Not allowed. Anywhere you go, they need to give you permission. False.

Not false. I have seen this happen first hand. Usually when the CO has other motives, and not often, but you never know.

13. Meetings, meetings to schedule meetings, meetings to schedule meetings about having a meeting. You are (involuntarily) invited. Lots of meetings, agree. Whereas in civilian world there are none..

There are a lot outside DOD too. But I know I'm required at a lot more meetings than my civilian colleagues. What's best is that they tell me about them literally less than 48 hours before the actual meeting time. So if I have patients scheduled: sorry, SGT Johnson, your problem will have to be rescheduled. That happens ALL THE TIME.

14. Do you have a serious illness? They will never release you unless you are dead. False. Grow a pair and have an appropriate conversation with supervisor.

Can't comment for sure. I can say that the regs make it very, very unclear about what makes a provider medically unfit. So they CAN keep you around with more or less any illness so long as you can work. Whether they DO or not, I dunno. I have no plans to try to get med boarded, so whatever.

15. Potential stop-loss extremely rare.

Yeah, probably pretty rare. But this is a thread about things you should consider prior to joining. That'd be one.

16. IRR leaves you vulnerable to call-up When was last time IRR personel were used?

Same as above.

17. Lazy, incompetent civilians that can't be fired due to union protection So now military folks are better than civilians? Contradiction much?

I think what he means is that there are two kinds of civilians in DOD hospitals: those with a very specific reason for being there (spouse stationed there, spouse was military and now they're a short hop from a pension, or maybe this is their first job), and then there's everyone else. I always related military hospitals to a $#!T filter. The good employees move on to higher pay and better conditions, and the crap stays in the filter (always with some exceptions). The fact is that federal employment is one of the primary habitats of the un-fireable bitching slug. It is not a favorable species.

18. You have to go to meetings where they remind you not to rape women I have sexual harassment seminars all the time at a major civilian academic facility.

Yeah, ubiquitous. Was definitely not as frequent when I was in corporate America, but that was many moons ago.

19. Old equipment that your command won't replace. At my last duty station (when I was enlisted) equipment was constantly being upgraded.

Naw, there's a lot of crap. They ARE always working to replace it, but there's about a 2 year lag time. So it's pretty backed up with crap, like a truck stop toilet.

20. They do anything possible to extend your commitment. Want to get your (ISP) bonus in your last year? Ooops, you just signed up for 4 more months Can't comment on this; have not experienced it. But physicians I knew did not have issues. You may be correct though.

They used to let you renegotiate the dates on your ISP so that you'd get it every year. No longer is that the case. They changed the deal a while back, as is their prerogative to change the deal on you at any time (that'd be a reason not to join for me.) now you do need to stay until October to get that last ISP, even if your ADSO is up in June. For me personally, it's not worth the time earning civilian pay.

21. Need medical care? Go see how many times your physician has been sued or disciplined before he ended up washing up at your MTF BS 'nuff said.

Heheheh......sometimes there is a boogeyman....

22. Forced, often unnecessary, often dangerous vaccines. Refusal lead to prosecution. See response to#21

Haven't experienced it. Hear it all the time. Might be true, might be like Bigfoot.

23. Drug tests at 4 am. Someone actually watching you urinate into a cup. The fact that drugs stay in your system for days is lost on them. Agreed

I've been tested 7 times in 7 months. It's not even random anymore.

24. You can be forced to undergo an invasive medical treatment against your will Please elaborate?

It is possible to be required to undergo a procedure to avoid MEB. But as far as I know you can choose MEB. I personally would refuse to operate on a patient who refused a surgery, consequences be damned.

25. Your social security number is posted everywhere for thieves to take Like on billboards?

No, like in the medical record, which has been hacked at least twice that I know of in the last decade. That's why civilian hospitals assign a random number. It's not that someone couldn't hack your computer or what not, it's that the DOD has put all those eggs in one nice basket. It's a big mistake on the part of the system.

26. There is no incentive to improve your skills. No matter how good or bad you are, you still have your job. So you are not motivated to better yourself?

Not really the point. This is infused into every aspect of your job. Even if you WANT to work more, hospitals aren't set up for the individual in the DOD or in the civilian world. If the people around you don't give a crap, it is only marginally meaningful if you do. Goes back to the $#!T filter idea. I'm sure there were people in the Soviet Union who wanted to better themselves, but they stood in line for TP because no one else cared. Lack of motivation is a bad thing.

27. Progressive skill rot. Cases seen will not allow you to keep up your skills Possibly. However, I worked with many that moonlighted.

Again, still something to consider when thinking about joining. There's no guarantee that you'll be able to moonlight. For me, I can only moonlight if intake leave and go out of state. Even then, it's call coverage only, so it doesn't really help keep my skillz up to date. Luckily, currently, my practice is pretty good.

28. Moonlighting is considered a privilege, even though it is needed to keep up #27 Not if you approach correctly, others did not have an issue with this.

It is a privilege, and can be revoked at any time. That is made very clear from the get-go.

29. Want a fellowship? Minimum of 2 years extra commitment Depends on fellowship, but yes I agree. Some require 1 year extra, but you knew this going in, no?

Doesn't actually depend on the Fellowship in any capacity that the OP meant. 2 year minimum for medical fellowships, at least for any in my field.

30. Three letters – G M O You knew about this possibility going in?

My recruiters told me they did not do GMO in the Army, only the Navy. I asked that question specifically. Now, I'm not a recruiter basher, I blame the system that fails to educate them.

31. Residency training of variable, borderline deficient quality.
From my contacts (all Air Force) the training is high quality. You may have more insight than I however.
My residency training was excellent. I do know a lot of docs who don't feel the same way about their training. All I have to say about that.

Ultimately, I think you should -consider- all (most) of these issues when joining, and OP feels that these are reasons not to join. That's valid even if someone disagrees with him.
 
Last edited:
Apr 5, 2003
3,688
128
Peoples's Democratic Republic of NY
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
I don't think anyone has an issue with exercise and maintaining fitness standards. I think the issue is that PT seems to be put on a higher pedastal than clinical activities in many cases. My popcorn emoticon was in response to you punching the hornet's nest.

Thank you for understanding. My point is that PT doesn't score doesn't make up for your medical deficiencies, and that doing PT at 5 am doesn't increase your clinical acumen, not that you shouldn't join because the army makes you do PT.

The point of my post was to list negatives related to joining the MC. It doesn't mean that we all experience all things on the list. It means that if you join, you will more than likely experience many of them.

-For example, my command likes the army medic song, so we spend 30 minutes singing it instead of seeing patients. I am not a friggin' medic. I am a field grade officer and a board certified physician with a full schedule of patients. Let me go see patients!!

This type of idiocy permeates the medical corps. We lost focus. We stopped caring about patients. We change the system with a change in command, just because people can't get a star without changing stuff. We spend millions of dollars on upgrades for hospitals slated to close. We let the midlevels practice independently. We prioritize CCC attendance over CME attendance. We are forced to follow outdated MEDCOM medical guidelines because these clowns haven't bothered to keep up with the literature. We strive to achieve unrealistic performance goals set by command, and we "achieve" them by fudging the numbers. We are forced to keep patients in house that we cannot possibly and safely take care of.

All of the above I experienced in some way in just the past week. I came in wanting to make a positive difference. I have been beaten down by my experience. I still go out of my way to fight for my patients, but I am signing off on the rest.

iDq1i, M.D, t -612 days
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

denali

Senior Member
15+ Year Member
Jan 26, 2003
365
19
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
This type of idiocy permeates the medical corps. We lost focus. We stopped caring about patients. We change the system with a change in command, just because people can't get a star without changing stuff. We spend millions of dollars on upgrades for hospitals slated to close. We let the midlevels practice independently. We prioritize CCC attendance over CME attendance. We are forced to follow outdated MEDCOM medical guidelines because these clowns haven't bothered to keep up with the literature. We strive to achieve unrealistic performance goals set by command, and we "achieve" them by fudging the numbers. We are forced to keep patients in house that we cannon possibly and safely take care of.

All of the above I experienced in some way in just the past week. I came in wanting to make a positive difference. I have been beaten down by my experience. I still go out of my way to fight for my patients, but I am signing off on the rest.

Unfortunately an itemized list doesn't capture the synergy of interacting frustrations: Providing patient care to the best of my ability while under formal pressure to minimize transfers out from non-physician and bean-counter leadership who deny the need for specialty resources but in their ignorance continue to go ape**** over individual cases involving serious diagnoses with unfortunate prognoses/outcomes, in a setting of across-the-board skill atrophy (physicians & nurses alike), negative support for CME ("You don't need PTDY, we have lunchtime 'brown bag' presentations", "What do you mean CEU is not the same as AMA CME credit?", "Just use UpToDate"), grudging foot-dragging support for ODE ("You just need to see more patients here"), and increasing amounts of mind-numbing, time-stealing admin requirements (Seriously?! I'm ABIM BC'd and MOC up-to-date, and I still need to sit through a 90min high-school level HIV education class taught by a staff nurse?! You really expect to prevent burnout, improve my mood, and improve my resiliency when I have to come in on my days off and/or stay hours after a 12hr night shift to attend resiliency, CPSP, and suicide prevention classes?!).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

notdeadyet

Still in California
15+ Year Member
Jul 23, 2004
11,775
1,994
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
My experiences have been different. As I said earlier, I may have been lucky to be at a really good place.
Are your experiences as a military physician? Because if not, you are speculating.
 
About the Ads

HighPriest

Specialized in diseases of the head holes
10+ Year Member
Jan 1, 2008
2,380
3,186
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
My experiences have been different. As I said earlier, I may have been lucky to be at a really good place.
Yeah, some experiences vary. But if one considers military service, one must accept the possibility that it may suck. That's the bargain.
That being said, some of this is not something that varies. You can only experience the fact that CME is no longer covered so many ways.
 
Apr 5, 2003
3,688
128
Peoples's Democratic Republic of NY
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
Unfortunately an itemized list doesn't capture the synergy of interacting frustrations: Providing patient care to the best of my ability while under formal pressure to minimize transfers out from non-physician and bean-counter leadership who deny the need for specialty resources but in their ignorance continue to go ape**** over individual cases involving serious diagnoses with unfortunate prognoses/outcomes.

So true. I see this EVERY DAY, or at least every other day. This is one of the most frustrating things about milmed, at least for me. Did I mention that non-physicians are given the ability/power to adjudicate these poor outcome cases?

Yes, nonphysicians are involved in risk management in the civilian world, but these people usually don't relish their opportunities to take down physicians as they do in milmed, where it is used for OER bullet points and ARCOMs/MSMs ("ensured quality patient care" )

Every time i attend one of these risk reviews, I have to bite my tongue until it bleeds so don't start yelling "STFU-you have no friggin' clue" at the damn nurses and line people
 
Last edited:

bricktamland

Duos habet et bene pendentes
10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Jul 25, 2007
125
58
Yes let's talk, did you want me to update my SDN status?

strike a nerve much? That was the point.

you lost all credibility at "#3 - PT." Everything that came after was just a bonus.

Your individual ARMY experience does not speak for entire military, but whatever you say sir. Have a good night.


Frankly, your credibility is what's in question. You speak with plenty of confidence, but it's clear you don't have a clue about half of what you say. Just because you worked with a few military physicians doesn't qualify you to speak with authority about every one of these issues. Your antagonistic attitude certainly doesn't do much to help your cause either.
 

bricktamland

Duos habet et bene pendentes
10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Jul 25, 2007
125
58
Not my intention to be antagonistic. I just wanted to excite some of you guys and perhaps draw out a variety of opinions. But since you are so dismissive about experiences that are not your own it was a moot point. For whatever reason only the bitter, angry mil docs post on here. Good luck.

On the contrary, differing opinions are very welcome, it's the manner with which you deliver your opinions with which I would care to dismiss. You're a pre-med student, who is telling a physician that his experiences as a physician are "BS" and that he needs to "grow a pair." I do indeed think your intent was to excite, but unfortunately you chose to antagonize as your means to achieve that. Your opinions are more than welcome, but they should be delivered in a respectful manner if you intend to be respected in turn.
 

dr zaius

10+ Year Member
Oct 27, 2008
1,368
418
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
Not my intention to be antagonistic. I just wanted to excite some of you guys and perhaps draw out a variety of opinions. But since you are so dismissive about experiences that are not your own it was a moot point. For whatever reason only the bitter, angry mil docs post on here. Good luck.


I don't know that they are all bitter. I think the main goal of most of the attendings who post here is to educate potential HPSP/USUHS candidates about what can be in store when they sign up. If you've talked to a fair number of HPSP medical students then you know most are clueless about the reality of their situation. For instance there are a lot of Navy HPSP students in the year below me, and when they started medical school not a single one knew what GMO stood for or that going on a GMO tour was a possibility.

This is also a place to safely blow off steam. There is a lot of negativity on this board, but when asked pretty much all of them do have some positive stories as well. I think the issue is that you came in here and told them that the negatives they endorse were false based on your experience, but you don't state what experience you've had.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

bricktamland

Duos habet et bene pendentes
10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Jul 25, 2007
125
58
I don't know that they are all bitter. I think the main goal of most of the attendings who post here is to educate potential HPSP/USUHS candidates about what can be in store when they sign up. If you've talked to a fair number of HPSP medical students then you know most are clueless about the reality of their situation. For instance there are a lot of Navy HPSP students in the year below me, and when they started medical school not a single one knew what GMO stood for or that going on a GMO tour was a possibility.

This is also a place to safely blow off steam. There is a lot of negativity on this board, but when asked pretty much all of them do have some positive stories as well. I think the issue is that you came in here and told them that the negatives they endorse were false based on your experience, but you don't state what experience you've had.

Precisely. I'm neither bitter nor angry. Though I admit for a time I was quite bitter while I was a GMO, but not because of the GMO tour itself, per se, but because of the horrible leaders I had while I was a GMO that made life miserable. That said, I've been in almost 10 years now, and 8 out of those 10 years have been pretty good. Still, I am planning to separate from the Navy once my commitment is up. Civilian medicine is no panacea; it definitely has its negatives. But for me, the pros/cons of civilian medicine are more favorable than military medicine. But it hasn't been a simple decision by any means.

The military, like any organization, has PR and they will spin everything in the most positive light. This thread is overwhelmingly negative, but the negatives are what you don't hear about from the military websites and the recruiters and it helps to fill in the whole story. Yes there are plenty of positives, but most of us already are well aware of those. I think this forum is extremely important as a counterbalance to the military PR, so potential HPSP/USUHS applicants can better make an informed decision.

I agree too that this forum also serves as type of catharsis.
 

HighPriest

Specialized in diseases of the head holes
10+ Year Member
Jan 1, 2008
2,380
3,186
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
I think my issue with inciting a response on this thread is that, as mentioned, this is meant as a place to discuss some of the negative issues that potential HPSP students should consider prior to taking the plunge. Obviously,not everyone is going to have the same experience. But if you read something here and think: "Wow, I couldn't deal with that," then the military isn't for you. If you think it isn't all that bad, then good for you.
There are other threads that exist for the sole purpose of discussing the benefits of military medicine. There are also plenty of docs on SDN who will give rather supportive reviews of military medicine. If you want to argue the benefits of DOD service, beef up a thread designed to showcase that sort of information. If you think most of the posts on SDN are anti-military, that's either because of some kind of selection bias (which you can't influence), or it's because there are a lot of unhappy docs in the military (which you can't influence), or is because you spend your time "inciting debate" instead of posting your own positive experiences. That, you can influence.

While my opinion of milmed is rather poor, I applaud the docs who contribute to pro-milmed threads. I'm glad that they have had a good experience. Why not incite some discussion by letting them know you agree. In the appropriate place. Doing it here is like walking into a PETA convention with a cheeseburger. It doesn't make you interesting, it just makes you an @$$h0le....with good taste in food....
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Apr 5, 2003
3,688
128
Peoples's Democratic Republic of NY
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
Edit::That being said, I should have approached my disagreement with your list differently, if at all.

Go re-read your posts. You were not disagreeing - you were essentially saying that I was lying and/or making things up. I promised myself to ignore your posts, so this is the last reply. Good day to you, and good luck in medical school. I am pretty sure it will open your eyes to many new perspectives. "working closely with many physicians" is quite different from BEING the physician. We don't magically gain 30 IQ points upon graduation, but our often naive views tend to change quite a bit.
 
Last edited:

colbgw02

Delightfully Tacky
15+ Year Member
Dec 9, 2004
4,492
2,793
By the guy with the thing at the place
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
I am pre-med starting med school this fall and prior enlisted working in CC very closely with military docs. Despite your judgement I do have a clue about what I am talking about. Where I was unsure I deferred, please re-read. Where I used "BS and grow a pair" the OP statements were untrue and meant to deceive future "victims" as he would say. His intentions were no different than those of recruiters not disclosing details of military match. My manner was appropriate given his tone in "the list."

Often wrong, but never in doubt.
 

Gastrapathy

no longer apathetic
10+ Year Member
Feb 27, 2007
5,448
4,895
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
Look class...it's a premed with a clue! Over here is a real live woolly mammoth and around the corner, I bet you can't wait to meet Nessie!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

colbgw02

Delightfully Tacky
15+ Year Member
Dec 9, 2004
4,492
2,793
By the guy with the thing at the place
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
Look class...it's a premed with a clue! Over here is a real live woolly mammoth and around the corner, I bet you can't wait to meet Nessie!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 
About the Ads
This thread is more than 7 years old.

Your message may be considered spam for the following reasons:

  1. Your new thread title is very short, and likely is unhelpful.
  2. Your reply is very short and likely does not add anything to the thread.
  3. Your reply is very long and likely does not add anything to the thread.
  4. It is very likely that it does not need any further discussion and thus bumping it serves no purpose.
  5. Your message is mostly quotes or spoilers.
  6. Your reply has occurred very quickly after a previous reply and likely does not add anything to the thread.
  7. This thread is locked.