4th time MCAT

[Dr. Stalker]

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If it's "run of the mill emergencies" -- that's exactly the kind of stuff that can derail a med student. If you read through the med student forums, you'll see all sorts of posts from students who are struggling, and many, many (most?) of these involve family circumstances like this. Sick parents and SO breakups and the students' inability to compartmentalize probably sink almost as many med students as depression and ADHD...

If it's not dire, and not self-limiting, then it falls into the ankle-weight dragging you down category. If it's your parents or grandparents, have a serious talk with them about the realities of your situation. You may not be able to stay close to home with a 'fair' MCAT score. And (sorry!) even a great 4th score is unlikely to change your chances much... So becoming a doctor might (probably will) require you to go farther from home than you'd prefer to be. Those are just the facts...

So the real question is apply now or wait?

I think you nailed it perfectly. This certainly will be a tough decision, but I'm leaning more towards wait!

 

[ThoracicGuy]

I think you missed the part where I said I have a geographic limitation. If I did not, hell yeah I'd apply and go wherever I got in.

No, I saw it. You have to decide if you want to be a doctor or you want to take care of a sick family member. I'm not saying one choice is better than the other, but sometimes it's the choice you have.

 

[SoppyElk]

I know it's n=1, but I took the MCAT 4 times, improved significantly the 4th time, and just started at a MD school this year. Obviously I would rather have not had to take the MCAT 4 times to get in, but it's still doable. Don't forget the rest of your application matters as well.

 

[gyngyn]

I once did a survey of my own medical students on this very question.
I asked them, "at what point does the number of MCAT's independently reduce the applicant's competitiveness?"
By far, the most common response was 3 or more.
Maybe this is just the opinion of my students, but I don't think so...

 

[sh.h]

Why do you think something went wrong ? He scored just fine for many Med schools. He's the one putting himself under stress. He's the one limiting himself geographically. His three scores are very consistent. It is very doubtful that he's going to suddenly shoot up 11 points. The questions you asked are questions that I'd ask someone who scored poorly on his tests. So why do you think something went wrong. Many people would be very happy for his scores.


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I don't think something went "wrong" as in his scores are "bad". Maybe I should have expressed myself differently. What I mean was that , if he always approached the MCAT the same way , then he is going to get the same results. Maybe changes in his approach COULD make a difference in his score ( not necessarily in his application though )
and anyway, as many have suggested , retaking the MCAT won't probably solve much because OP needs to apply broadly, consider DO schools, and have a talk with family members if possible.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

Stalker, you gave me a lot of advice back in my days on the MCAT forums, so I'm going to try and be objective (and kind) in this response.

1. You already took the MCAT 3x. Not only did you take the MCAT 3x, but you never really improved significantly. Sure, you never did worse, which is great, but you stayed in a pretty consistent range of 29-31. Believing you can somehow increase to a 512-514 seems unrealistic, and like others have pointed out, if all you needed were a few more months to achieve this score, adcoms will wonder why you didn't postpone your third test.

2. You state that your sub-30 score kept you out of med school the first round. I disagree: your poor school list kept you out. If your GPA, ECs, and the rest of your app are as great as you say they are, a 29 would not have kept you out of medical school with a good school list. Applying to schools only in your geographic area, especially in a state like NY that has > average matriculant MCAT scores, is not wise. It wasn't wise back then, and it isn't wise now (or whenever you reapply).

3. Speaking of your school list, you seem to ignore all comments on this thread about applying to DO schools. If you are so committed to staying in your region, I don't understand your lack of interest in adding your local DO schools to your application list. A 29 or a 509 are both solid scores for DO schools, especially with such a great application as you claim to have.

4. As others have also pointed out, even if you somehow were able to get into one of these local MD schools you talk about, what makes you think you could make it through? If you're falling behind in coursework, losing valuable study time, and failing exams because you're running to assist your family members with their emergencies, you're not going to end up a doctor. If the emergencies aren't this bad, where you have to drop everything and show up to help, then I don't understand the geographic limitation.

I think you have the motivation to be a doctor-- no one takes the MCAT 3x without having passion. At this point, though, I think you are harming yourself more than helping yourself by continuously postponing your application and retaking the MCAT. Accept that you have plateaued, that unfortunately because of the state you are from going to a local MD school is going to be difficult, sort out your family troubles to the best of your ability prior to matriculation, and add some DO schools to your list.

Best of luck. Hope this didn't come off too harsh 🙂

 

[CyrilFiggis]

@Dr. Stalker if the geographically limiting factors are as you say more short term, you can apply and then ask for a year deferment.

The issue is once someone gets admitted to an MD school if they opt not to attend and instead reapply, I was told those students are automatically rejected because the student didn't go for the MD school when they had the chance.

Depending on where you apply outside of your geographical limit, some schools accept personal reasons for deferment.

And if this is more of a chronic situation, you may not have the luxury of staying local for residency even if you stay local for med school. Unfortunately that's the nature of the beast.

 

[DBC03]

As I was thinking through this today, I thought about how we each go through different periods in our lives when we sometimes have to put something on hold. I am applying as a non-traditional student because of a few factors - I had student loans that needed to be paid off, I had to get my husband through school, and then I was helping my father out until he retired. Everything came together this year and it was time to move on to the next phase in my life. And I have no regrets about it. It sounds like you are going through a phase. And sometimes it's okay to put something on hold while you go through that phase. When you go to medical school, you need to be completely devoted to it and you will have to be selfish. And if you're feeling like you are needed close to home this year, that is okay. Only you can decide if you should stay there and make that your priority. Make it your priority for a year or two, then perhaps you can allow most of those MCATs to expire and then take it again if you need to or think it will be that much better of a score. Do some really interesting and awesome things while you make your family a priority, then apply when you are ready. I think that is a legitimate option and one that you should consider. If you think this will be an issue forever, then you have to rethink your plans. Your application should be fine for many schools, but you need to be sure that this is the right time.

 

[863168]

@DBC03 Do you think that this intervention is about external factors holding the OP back or the OP holding themselves back?

 

[DBC03]

@DBC03 Do you think that this intervention is about external factors holding the OP back or the OP holding themselves back?

I believe this is something only the OP can answer. There are times when it is appropriate to put family first, and there are times when it might be more appropriate to move on. I think he should carefully consider the circumstances and then decide how to move forward.

 

[Dr. Stalker]

Stalker, you gave me a lot of advice back in my days on the MCAT forums, so I'm going to try and be objective (and kind) in this response.

1. You already took the MCAT 3x. Not only did you take the MCAT 3x, but you never really improved significantly. Sure, you never did worse, which is great, but you stayed in a pretty consistent range of 29-31. Believing you can somehow increase to a 512-514 seems unrealistic, and like others have pointed out, if all you needed were a few more months to achieve this score, adcoms will wonder why you didn't postpone your third test.

2. You state that your sub-30 score kept you out of med school the first round. I disagree: your poor school list kept you out. If your GPA, ECs, and the rest of your app are as great as you say they are, a 29 would not have kept you out of medical school with a good school list. Applying to schools only in your geographic area, especially in a state like NY that has > average matriculant MCAT scores, is not wise. It wasn't wise back then, and it isn't wise now (or whenever you reapply).

3. Speaking of your school list, you seem to ignore all comments on this thread about applying to DO schools. If you are so committed to staying in your region, I don't understand your lack of interest in adding your local DO schools to your application list. A 29 or a 509 are both solid scores for DO schools, especially with such a great application as you claim to have.

4. As others have also pointed out, even if you somehow were able to get into one of these local MD schools you talk about, what makes you think you could make it through? If you're falling behind in coursework, losing valuable study time, and failing exams because you're running to assist your family members with their emergencies, you're not going to end up a doctor. If the emergencies aren't this bad, where you have to drop everything and show up to help, then I don't understand the geographic limitation.

I think you have the motivation to be a doctor-- no one takes the MCAT 3x without having passion. At this point, though, I think you are harming yourself more than helping yourself by continuously postponing your application and retaking the MCAT. Accept that you have plateaued, that unfortunately because of the state you are from going to a local MD school is going to be difficult, sort out your family troubles to the best of your ability prior to matriculation, and add some DO schools to your list.

Best of luck. Hope this didn't come off too harsh 🙂

The first time with a 29 I did apply all over the place - all the famous low tiers and far away schools! The reason I'm so certain is the few schools that interview me said it was my MCAT score. The others that pre-interview rejected me said I just didn't have good luck because schools were more receptive and forgiving with new lower scores (505s-508s) and that cycle was just a bad time to have a 29 - granted, all cycles with a 29 aren't going to be awesome.

The point you mention about making it through medical school is a good consideration that I'll have to look at!

 

[tekkenman11]

I think you mean 3rd time.

Vast majority of medical schools (MD) don't accept old MCAT scores anymore. So to them it would be as if you never took it in the first place, they're not allowed to use it despite it showing up in your AMCAS (as all lifetime scores do up until a point).

So I don't know why everyone here is jumping on this 4th time bandwagon. Did we forget the guidelines set forth by medical schools themselves?

I personally would recommend against taking the new MCAT a third time. With a 509 and your past history you would need to improve dramatically. I'm talking about 98th percentile. Is it possible? Sure. My old roommate went from the lower 60th percentile to a 98, but his first test was a fluke (had practice scores in the 80+). Don't expect to the the exception to the norm. Apply to DO, low-tier MD, and your state schools.

 

[drmantistobbogan]

While I see your constructive criticism, I myself know I've achieved all my ECs hence I do believe it. Also, a 29 is a huge red flag - not the percentile, but the fact is "This applicant isn't a 30, why??"

The reason I post all over about the importance of the MCAT is I got burned by 3 MD schools cause of my 29 and it would've taken 1 point higher. 1 question correct. I don't ever want to see anyone in that position, because, it sucks. And believe it or not, the MCAT matters a crapton for earning an interview as well as the post-interview decision. I think all of us except maybe @efle has drank way too much of the SDN Kool-Aid and fooled ourselves into thinking "hey, you ECs win you an admission on interview day, your #s mean nothing anymore!" Picture two candidates. 519+4.0, 509+4.0. If the 519 student gives an average interview, he/she will simply be admitted. The 509 has a huge uphill battle and can give the best dam interview in the world, but the school may just waitlist/reject. Why? They have plenty of normal-interviewing students who will make okay doctors applying with a 519.

Now my argument totally changes if the 519 is a nutjob and has zero business in medicine (i.e. lacks empathy lol).

Hey man, if you had 3 MD interviews, I highly doubt your MCAT was the problem. Why would 3 different schools waste their time interviewing you if they already knew your score? Sounds like a personality/interview issue instead.

 

[drmantistobbogan]

I think you mean 3rd time.

Vast majority of medical schools (MD) don't accept old MCAT scores anymore. So to them it would be as if you never took it in the first place, they're not allowed to use it despite it showing up in your AMCAS (as all lifetime scores do up until a point).

So I don't know why everyone here is jumping on this 4th time bandwagon. Did we forget the guidelines set forth by medical schools themselves?

Do you have any evidence to support that? Just because the score is ineligible doesn't mean a school doesn't have access to it and it doesn't mean that it still counts as one of your seven lifetime attempts.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

At times like this, it can be helpful to imagine yourself 5 years from now.

Would you prefer graduating from a med school that isn't within your geographical limitations, or would you prefer holding to your region-restrictions and never matriculating in med school because either your current scores were too low or the 4th retake wasn't helpful (even if it was an improvement)?

My guess is that 5 years from now, if you held to your region-restrictions and never got into med school, you would realize how unwise those limits were. But, that's for you to ponder.

 

[Goro]

I think you mean 3rd time.

Vast majority of medical schools (MD) don't accept old MCAT scores anymore. So to them it would be as if you never took it in the first place, they're not allowed to use it despite it showing up in your AMCAS (as all lifetime scores do up until a point).

So I don't know why everyone here is jumping on this 4th time bandwagon. Did we forget the guidelines set forth by medical schools themselves?

This advice is so ignorant of the admission process that is almost malignant.

While med schools may not accept an old MCAT score, that doesn't mean we can't consider them, nor are we ignorant of them We see ALL MCAT scores, and judge applicants accordingly.

How individual screeners or Adcom members interpret these is all up to them, but the most accurate assessment of skills is to average the scores. There's publish data on this (and I'm at home now, so I'm not Pubmed searching for you).

Hey man, if you had 3 MD interviews, I highly doubt your MCAT was the problem. Why would 3 different schools waste their time interviewing you if they already knew your score? Sounds like a personality/interview issue instead.

Sometimes we interview marginal candidates in the hope that they'll wow us. I believe OP had the interviews at his state schools, which have a mission to favor IS applicants. The scenario at the Adcom meeting might very well have gone like this:
Interviewer: "I liked Stalker, nice guy. But I'm worried about that MCAT score."

As a lesson to all of you, if OP had applied to NYITCOM or PCOM, he's be an OMSI right now.

 

[IWillMakeIt1]

This advice is so ignorant of the admission process that is almost malignant.

While med schools may not accept an old MCAT score, that doesn't mean we can't consider them, nor are we ignorant of them We see ALL MCAT scores, and judge applicants accordingly.

How individual screeners or Adcom members interpret these is all up to them, but the most accurate assessment of skills is to average the scores. There's publish data on this (and I'm at home now, so I'm not Pubmed searching for you).


Sometimes we interview marginal candidates in the hope that they'll wow us. I believe OP had the interviews at his state schools, which have a mission to favor IS applicants. The scenario at the Adcom meeting might very well have gone like this:
Interviewer: "I liked Stalker, nice guy. But I'm worried about that MCAT score."

As a lesson to all of you, if OP had applied to NYITCOM or PCOM, he's be an OMSI right now.

I think OP is worried about the stigma behind DO. OP sometimes you dont have a choice, and if you want to be a doctor then you will be one as a DO as well. I don't understand why so many premeds are against DOs. Yes, you might be limited to certain specialities but its not impossible.

 

[drmantistobbogan]

This advice is so ignorant of the admission process that is almost malignant.

While med schools may not accept an old MCAT score, that doesn't mean we can't consider them, nor are we ignorant of them We see ALL MCAT scores, and judge applicants accordingly.

How individual screeners or Adcom members interpret these is all up to them, but the most accurate assessment of skills is to average the scores. There's publish data on this (and I'm at home now, so I'm not Pubmed searching for you).


Sometimes we interview marginal candidates in the hope that they'll wow us. I believe OP had the interviews at his state schools, which have a mission to favor IS applicants. The scenario at the Adcom meeting might very well have gone like this:
Interviewer: "I liked Stalker, nice guy. But I'm worried about that MCAT score."

As a lesson to all of you, if OP had applied to NYITCOM or PCOM, he's be an OMSI right now.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that OP already had their interest, all he had to do was seal the deal. His MCAT score may have been a factor in the decision, but it wasn't the sole reason.

 

[Goro]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that OP already had their interest, all he had to do was seal the deal. His MCAT score may have been a factor in the decision, but it wasn't the sole reason.

This is correct. Borderline candidates have to wow us.


think OP is worried about the stigma behind DO. OP sometimes you dont have a choice, and if you want to be a doctor then you will be one as a DO as well. I don't understand why so many premeds are against DOs. Yes, you might be limited to certain specialities but its not impossible.

Indeed. Beggars can't be choosy.

 

[dr.Breezy]

Looks like that super rigorous deflating premed program at your UG did a poor job at preparing you for the mcat. You took it 3 times, cut your losses and go be a doctor, whether it's MD or DO.


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[drmantistobbogan]

Looks like that super rigorous deflating premed program at your UG did a poor job at preparing you for the mcat. You took it 3 times, cut your losses and go be a doctor, whether it's MD or DO.


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shots fired

 

[cke11]

OP it seems you haven't applied DO, but you didn't answer the question when asked earlier I assume you were just responding to all the messages and missed it. If you don't know what you want to go into and fall in love with a say ortho, or neurosurg, or even gen surg and that will make it harder as a DO, then why apply? Obviously people still make it into competitive residencies as a DO, but in the medical profession I don't believe the stigma will go away for awhile. If you don't care what specialty you end up then DO is obviously your best route. I understand your hesitation, I know there is a large stigma against DOs in competitive fields, it's just harder to get into them and that's just the way it is.

 

[IWillMakeIt1]

OP it seems you haven't applied DO, but you didn't answer the question when asked earlier I assume you were just responding to all the messages and missed it. If you don't know what you want to go into and fall in love with a say ortho, or neurosurg, or even gen surg and that will make it harder as a DO, then why apply? Obviously people still make it into competitive residencies as a DO, but in the medical profession I don't believe the stigma will go away for awhile. If you don't care what specialty you end up then DO is obviously your best route. I understand your hesitation, I know there is a large stigma against DOs in competitive fields, it's just harder to get into them and that's just the way it is.

Yep work your ass off as a DO and go into whatever speciality you want. It comes down to each student's effort at the end of the day

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

If you don't know what you want to go into and fall in love with a say ortho, or neurosurg, or even gen surg and that will make it harder as a DO, then why apply?

Because often it is someone's only route to becoming a doctor. Can't ever be a neurosurgeon if you never go to medical school.

 

[mwsapphire]

Because often it is someone's only route to becoming a doctor. Can't ever be a neurosurgeon if you never go to medical school.

I'm pretty sure even those specialties have their own DO residencies now, and more will open by the time OP graduates!

 

[On_The_Way_Up]

Don't retake. You need to accept the reality your best shot may be DO school or somewhere at a MD across the country.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I'm pretty sure even those specialties have their own DO residencies now, and more will open by the time OP graduates!

Yes but just to clarify DO only residencies no longer exist, as everything will be ACGME accredited. We will have to see how many of the former DO programs continue to take mostly DOs. Your point is definitely correct though, DOs gave a better chance of becoming specialists than people who don't go to medical school at all

 

[mariposas905]

Yes but just to clarify DO only residencies no longer exist, as everything will be ACGME accredited. We will have to see how many of the former DO programs continue to take mostly DOs. Your point is definitely correct though, DOs gave a better chance of becoming specialists than people who don't go to medical school at all

Is this a disadvantage to DOs though? That means they are competing with the MD pool for residencies now right? whereas previously, they could easily get into one of their own residency programs

 

[mwsapphire]

Is this a disadvantage to DOs though? That means they are competing with the MD pool for residencies now right? whereas previously, they could easily get into one of their won residency programs

But now people who graduate from those residencies are more on even footing with MD graduates , and those programs will still favor DO graduates, the point of those residencies is to give DO's a chance , so they likely will only take weaker MD applicants. The point of the Osteopathic residencies is to give DO docs opportunities and to preserve the degree.
At least that's what I think.

 

[mariposas905]

But now people who graduate from those residencies are more on even footing with MD graduates , and those programs will still favor DO graduates, the point of those residencies is to give DO's a chance , so they likely will only take weaker MD applicants. The point of the Osteopathic residencies is to give DO docs opportunities and to preserve the degree.
At least that's what I think.

I'm still confused lol I thought it didn't matter after you graduate from residency whether you are DO or MD since the common public wouldn't know which residencies were meant for DOs or MDs...the main hurdle is getting in. That's why I felt the DO residencies made it easier, since they were giving DO docs opportunities like you said. If those residencies are being removed, then how does that help except make things more competitive 😕 both for MDs/DOs and FMGs. I guess it doesn't matter as long as PDs look at the DO and MD applicant equally.

 

[Lawpy]

Is this a disadvantage to DOs though? That means they are competing with the MD pool for residencies now right? whereas previously, they could easily get into one of their own residency programs

I'm still confused lol I thought it didn't matter after you graduate from residency whether you are DO or MD since the common public wouldn't know which residencies were meant for DOs or MDs...the main hurdle is getting in. That's why I felt the DO residencies made it easier, since they were giving DO docs opportunities like you said. If those residencies are being removed, then how does that help except make things more competitive 😕 both for MDs/DOs and FMGs. I guess it doesn't matter as long as PDs look at the DO and MD applicant equally.

MD applicants will generally be stronger than DO applicants because it's harder to get into US MD school than US DO school, and MD schools offer a lot more resources and quality clinical rotations than DO schools. I don't know what will happen post-merger but I think DO applicants are essentially completely outmatched by their MD applicant peers, especially in more competitive specialties at academic residency programs. The differences in MD vs DO vs IMGs (US or non-US) matter as program directors can freely eliminate applicants using a filter that selects only for US MD graduates.

 

[mwsapphire]

MD applicants will generally be stronger than DO applicants because it's harder to get into US MD school than US DO school, and MD schools offer a lot more resources and quality clinical rotations than DO schools. I don't know what will happen post-merger but I think DO applicants are essentially completely outmatched by their MD applicant peers, especially in more competitive specialties at academic residency programs. The differences in MD vs DO vs IMGs (US or non-US) matter as program directors can freely eliminate applicants using a filter that selects only for US MD graduates.

I'm...not so sure that's always true. I think those Osteopathic residencies will still favor DO applicants, I mean the merger will still exist but the PD's interest will still be in making the DO degree a wide spread thing.
I mean, neither of us can be sure.
What do you think, Dr. @Goro ?

 

[Lawpy]

I'm...not so sure that's always true. I think those Osteopathic residencies will still favor DO applicants, I mean the merger will still exist but the PD's interest will still be in making the DO degree a wide spread thing.
I mean, neither of us can be sure.
What do you think, Dr. @Goro ?

What does the DO degree mean? There has to be a difference or a unique aspect of it for PDs to care about making it widespread.

 

[Goro]

I'm...not so sure that's always true. I think those Osteopathic residencies will still favor DO applicants, I mean the merger will still exist but the PD's interest will still be in making the DO degree a wide spread thing.
I mean, neither of us can be sure.
What do you think, Dr. @Goro ?

At this point it's like trying to predict who will win the 2020 presidential elections. I lean towards sapphires idea that DO PDs might favor the profession by being more selective towards DOs. Note the word "might".

As an n=1, a very good friend of mine who is a DO PD in the Northwest says that her AOA program will accept MDs after the merger.

I also have a sense that there will be some sort of osmotic median occurring. I'm 100% musing here, something like MDs who would normally go to a good FM or IM program now going to the former AOA Ortho/ENT/Derm and other uber specialties. Now who takes their place? Weaker MDs? or Stronger DOs? The crystal ball is murky. I have noticed a trend of my own grads (and others) kicking open doors that normally were closed to DOs...for example, they became the only DOs in the country at this particular specialty's program. Weree they Lotto winners or trend setters? Haven't a clue.

Let's get back to the OP's situation. IF I put a gun to his head, and said "the only doctor you're going to be is in Primary Care, PM&R, Path, Psych, Neuro, ER or Gas. Everything else is off limits.. Now, do you still wanna be a doctor?"

What do you think his or anyone else's answer would be?

 

[Toutie]

At this point it's like trying to predict who will win the 2020 presidential elections.

I want to put on the Hogwarts sorting hat for the 2020. Not Trump. Not Trump. Not Trump. 😀

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Is this a disadvantage to DOs though? That means they are competing with the MD pool for residencies now right? whereas previously, they could easily get into one of their own residency programs

Few thoughts, yes it will most likely be harder for DOs to get these competitive specialties. The truth is that now it forces DOs to do things like research on top of doing really well on boards to put together an app worthy of "insert competitive specialty here."

I'm still confused lol I thought it didn't matter after you graduate from residency whether you are DO or MD since the common public wouldn't know which residencies were meant for DOs or MDs...t

It doesn't. The residency program you graduate from will have some influence in where you can practice and job offers however, but DO grads have been able to find jobs all across the country in every specialty. It's not something I'm really concerned about. The merger actually helps with this because now every DO will graduate from an ACGME accredited residency program, and that gives some extra validity to the training.

I think DO applicants are essentially completely outmatched by their MD applicant peers

Eh that's a slippery slope. You forget that even in the MD world the three most matched fields are IM, family med, and peds. There are a lot of normal MD students who are exactly the same on paper as their DO counterparts, they just have the bonus of their MD degree getting them a little more bang for their buck. Now yes the MDs who are pursuing competitive programs or specialties generally have better applicants than their DO counterparts. This isn't always true however as there really are some rockstars in every DO class that can go toe to toe with most MD candidates in whatever the field is they are pursuing.

especially in more competitive specialties at academic residency programs

Agree 100%. Part of it is that academics is very prestige driven, and DO schools essentially have none outside of the general prestige given to the medical profession.

I'm 100% musing here, something like MDs who would normally go to a good FM or IM program now going to the former AOA Ortho/ENT/Derm

Eh I doubt it. MDs going to the good IM and FM programs want to be there. It's the slightly below average MD applicants (for those competitive specialties, so still pretty good applicants) who will be competing with the DOs who are slightly below average for the same specialty. They will definitely snag some of those spots from those applicants, but the really good MD candidates for ortho won't really be focusing on the former AOA ortho programs, if they even apply. The best DO applicants will still get those spots IMO. People forget that some of these specialty matches in the AOA are filled by the best DO applicants in the country who didn't want to risk giving up an essentially guaranteed AOA spot for a chance at an ACGME program.

 

[IWillMakeIt1]

At this point it's like trying to predict who will win the 2020 presidential elections. I lean towards sapphires idea that DO PDs might favor the profession by being more selective towards DOs. Note the word "might".

As an n=1, a very good friend of mine who is a DO PD in the Northwest says that her AOA program will accept MDs after the merger.

I also have a sense that there will be some sort of osmotic median occurring. I'm 100% musing here, something like MDs who would normally go to a good FM or IM program now going to the former AOA Ortho/ENT/Derm and other uber specialties. Now who takes their place? Weaker MDs? or Stronger DOs? The crystal ball is murky. I have noticed a trend of my own grads (and others) kicking open doors that normally were closed to DOs...for example, they became the only DOs in the country at this particular specialty's program. Weree they Lotto winners or trend setters? Haven't a clue.

Let's get back to the OP's situation. IF I put a gun to his head, and said "the only doctor you're going to be is in Primary Care, PM&R, Path, Psych, Neuro, ER or Gas. Everything else is off limits.. Now, do you still wanna be a doctor?"

What do you think his or anyone else's answer would be?

I think he might say no lol I can't speak for him but it's true how most premeds primarily think they will go into neurosurgery, ortho,etc until they are exposed to the reality of how ****ty the life of a neurosurgeon or a orthopedic surgeon 😀

 

[tekkenman11]

This advice is so ignorant of the admission process that is almost malignant.

While med schools may not accept an old MCAT score, that doesn't mean we can't consider them, nor are we ignorant of them We see ALL MCAT scores, and judge applicants accordingly.

How individual screeners or Adcom members interpret these is all up to them, but the most accurate assessment of skills is to average the scores. There's publish data on this (and I'm at home now, so I'm not Pubmed searching for you).


Sometimes we interview marginal candidates in the hope that they'll wow us. I believe OP had the interviews at his state schools, which have a mission to favor IS applicants. The scenario at the Adcom meeting might very well have gone like this:
Interviewer: "I liked Stalker, nice guy. But I'm worried about that MCAT score."

As a lesson to all of you, if OP had applied to NYITCOM or PCOM, he's be an OMSI right now.

If a school specifically states that they do not consider/judge scores from the old mcat then why would you assume otherwise? Are you implying that they are lying to students? If so, that's a pretty strong assertion, do you really want to make such an accusation?

Also, the AAMC recommendation to average scores is in regards to "active" ones. So if a school accepts scores within a 3 year time span the recommendation would be to evaluate the average of multiple scores within that three year time span, not outside of it. This isn't even touching upon the significant differences between the 1991 MCAT and 2015 MCAT and why nearly every school in the country is not letting older students use "expired" ones.

tl;dr I sincerely doubt OP is going to be "hampered" by his/her old MCAT when they have two more recent MCATS from the new exam which would be extremely more indicative of their current candidacy. Regardless, they should not re-take the MCAT. The End.

 

[tekkenman11]

Do you have any evidence to support that? Just because the score is ineligible doesn't mean a school doesn't have access to it and it doesn't mean that it still counts as one of your seven lifetime attempts.

Look at the column for this year. https://prehealth.wustl.edu/Documents/mcatexampolicy.pdf

If a school explicitly states the date range for scores eligible to be considered, then you must give them the benefit of the doubt and accept their word. If you refuse to then you are walking a fine ethical/legal line between a medical school saying one thing, but doing another. Especially in regards to such a major aspect of one's application.

 

[Toutie]

If a school specifically states that they do not consider/judge scores from the old mcat then why would you assume otherwise? Are you implying that they are lying to students? If so, that's a pretty strong assertion, do you really want to make such an accusation?

Also, the AAMC recommendation to average scores is in regards to "active" ones. So if a school accepts scores within a 3 year time span the recommendation would be to evaluate the average of multiple scores within that three year time span, not outside of it. This isn't even touching upon the significant differences between the 1991 MCAT and 2015 MCAT and why nearly every school in the country is not letting older students use "expired" ones.

tl;dr I sincerely doubt OP is going to be "hampered" by his/her old MCAT when they have two more recent MCATS from the new exam which would be extremely more indicative of their current candidacy. Regardless, they should not re-take the MCAT. The End.

@Goro said they SEE all scores. They can't simply un-see them...they are there. He did not say all schools consider them or judge by them, but some might. Previous scores may or may not leave an impression on them. There is no one size fits all here.

 

[tekkenman11]

@Goro said they SEE all scores. They can't simply un-see them...they are there. He did not say all schools consider them or judge by them, but some might. Previous scores may or may not leave an impression on them. There is no one size fits all here.

I never said they don't see them. Well all know that all scores are reported on your AMCAS application. However, we can't make judgements on another persons mentality simply based on anecdotes, or feelings. If a school officially states their opinion on a matter, then theirs is the final say. You don't take action on unofficial word-of-mouth.

 

[septalridge]

I think that taking the MCAT four times would look really bad even if you did a lot better (to be honest, taking it three times doesn't do you many favors). A 509 is a perfectly fine score although don't be surprised if people balk at how many times you've taken the test. I'd apply broadly to MD schools with lower MCAT requirements and to a lot of DO schools as well.

This seems like really good advice; 509 isn't horrible, and if your overall application is decent, seems like you have a reasonable chance. You already indicated

I've more or less covered all ECs, the reason I'm so hellbent on my MCAT is the first time I applied with a 29 and the 3 MD interviews I had all told me upon waitlisted and finally rejected that my MCAT kept me out; my interview evals were good, ECs fine, GPA stellar, so I figure its the one thing I really need at this point.

Yeah, but unless you had a dramatic rise in score on the next attempt (not likely), it would seem a non-productive use of time. However,your profile would be strong for DO schools, so why not consider those with a blend of lower ranked MD programs?

 

[Toutie]

Vast majority of medical schools (MD) don't accept old MCAT scores anymore. So to them it would be as if you never took it in the first place, they're not allowed to use it despite it showing up in your AMCAS (as all lifetime scores do up until a point).

Okay, how is that you know for absolutely sure that just because a "vast majority" of schools don't accept it anymore that it would be seen as if you never took it? They will STILL see it. Some schools, some adcoms, may or may not let it affect their decision. If a school specifically says they will NOT use it, then yes, you should probably believe it. But not all schools say that. Again, there is no one size fits all.

 

[drmantistobbogan]

I never said they don't see them. Well all know that all scores are reported on your AMCAS application. However, we can't make judgements on another persons mentality simply based on anecdotes, or feelings. If a school officially states their opinion on a matter, then theirs is the final say. You don't take action on unofficial word-of-mouth.

So what you're saying is that you have no evidence and you're asking us to believe you? Did you not see the irony when you made this post?

 

[Toutie]

So what you're saying is that you have no evidence and you're asking us to believe you? Did you not see the irony when you made this post?

Thank you!

 

[Lawpy]

Schools have no reason to disclose their evaluation guidelines. They are free to evaluate multiple scores however they wish regardless of what's publicly reported.

 

[bigindian4891]

Look at the column for this year. https://prehealth.wustl.edu/Documents/mcatexampolicy.pdf

If a school explicitly states the date range for scores eligible to be considered, then you must give them the benefit of the doubt and accept their word. If you refuse to then you are walking a fine ethical/legal line between a medical school saying one thing, but doing another. Especially in regards to such a major aspect of one's application.

The misinformation you are spreading is astounding.

 

[candbgirl]

And the misunderstanding of what that statement means.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[Goro]

If a school specifically states that they do not consider/judge scores from the old mcat then why would you assume otherwise? Are you implying that they are lying to students? If so, that's a pretty strong assertion, do you really want to make such an accusation?

Also, the AAMC recommendation to average scores is in regards to "active" ones. So if a school accepts scores within a 3 year time span the recommendation would be to evaluate the average of multiple scores within that three year time span, not outside of it. This isn't even touching upon the significant differences between the 1991 MCAT and 2015 MCAT and why nearly every school in the country is not letting older students use "expired" ones.

tl;dr I sincerely doubt OP is going to be "hampered" by his/her old MCAT when they have two more recent MCATS from the new exam which would be extremely more indicative of their current candidacy. Regardless, they should not re-take the MCAT. The End.

That's not what you wrote, which was: Vast majority of medical schools (MD) don't accept old MCAT scores anymore. So to them it would be as if you never took it in the first place, they're not allowed to use it despite it showing up in your AMCAS (as all lifetime scores do up until a point).

No matter what a school states, individual screeners' or interviewers' preferences can't be made to go away. It's like the Judge telling the Jury, "You will disregard that last comment".

It appears that you are confusing "We don't accept that old score" with "We won't consider that old score when we look at your new score(s)". These are two very different things.

I'm trying to say this in the nicest possible way, but if you haven't taken the MCAT yet, be VERY careful on the CARS section.

EDIT: At my school, we see all scores, and we consider them.

 

[On_The_Way_Up]

I never said they don't see them. Well all know that all scores are reported on your AMCAS application. However, we can't make judgements on another persons mentality simply based on anecdotes, or feelings. If a school officially states their opinion on a matter, then theirs is the final say. You don't take action on unofficial word-of-mouth.

Wanna get away? ✈️