Deecee2DO

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Hey 4th years/residents/attendings,

I am an M3 at a DO school looking to match the highest tier academic IM program I can get into as a DO (which usually doesn't end up surpassing mid-tier unfortunately) and was wondering if auditions would be very important for me to do next year. My goal programs are Yale, Gtown, Wake, BUMC (reach I know), Dartmouth, Brown (obviously will apply to lower tier academic programs as well but this is the tier I am shooting for). My Step 1 is a 254 and COMLEX Level 1 is a 671, solid ECs, strong evals/honors in all rotations so far (hoping to keep this trend), and shooting for 260+ Step 2. Do you think doing auditions at these programs will be important in landing interviews/matching at these programs? Or should I be spending my time elsewhere to make myself as competitive as possible? Thanks!
 
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PorkChopsOG

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Hey 4th years/residents/attendings,

I am an M3 at a DO school looking to match the highest tier academic IM program I can get into as a DO (which usually doesn't end up surpassing mid-tier unfortunately) and was wondering if auditions would be very important for me to do next year. My goal programs are Yale, Gtown, Wake, BUMC (reach I know), Dartmouth, Brown (obviously will apply to lower tier academic programs as well but this is the tier I am shooting for). My Step 1 is a 254 and COMLEX Level 1 is a 671, solid ECs, strong evals/honors in all rotations so far (hoping to keep this trend), and shooting for 260+ Step 2. Do you think doing auditions at these programs will be important in landing interviews/matching at these programs? Or should I be spending my time elsewhere to make myself as competitive as possible? Thanks!
Do you have solid research? Like, not just 2 case reports, but any meaningful publications? A lot of academic places gloss over DO's due to lack research. My advice is to find out which programs take their auditioning students, and find the academic IM programs with a few DO students in each class. A lot of people say not to audition for IM, and to let your stats speak for yourself. However, after doing a lot of auditions this year, I think they're very important. Unless you're super awkward and tend to piss people off, in which case, don't do them.
 
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Deecee2DO

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Do you have solid research? Like, not just 2 case reports, but any meaningful publications? A lot of academic places gloss over DO's due to lack research. My advice is to find out which programs take their auditioning students, and find the academic IM programs with a few DO students in each class. A lot of people say not to audition for IM, and to let your stats speak for yourself. However, after doing a lot of auditions this year, I think they're very important. Unless you're super awkward and tend to piss people off, in which case, don't do them.
I do not have solid research lol I am working on research at Penn but its highly possible i wont publish by the time I apply. For BUMC and Yale i could see this hurting me but for the rest of the programs I mentioned is this going to be a huge issue if I dont publish? I know research is important but I spent so much time doing other things like busting my butt in class, on boards, networking and with my ECs that I just never spent time on research and Im pissed about it lol. Bad planning on my part
 
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I do not have solid research lol I am working on research at Penn but its highly possible i wont publish by the time I apply. For BUMC and Yale i could see this hurting me but for the rest of the programs I mentioned is this going to be a huge issue if I dont publish? I know research is important but I spent so much time doing other things like busting my butt in class, on boards, networking and with my ECs that I just never spent time on research and Im pissed about it lol. Bad planning on my part

I fell into that same exact trap. At least we didn't end up with no research and bad boards, hah. Congrats on your scores, I'm sure they will take you far
 
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PorkChopsOG

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I do not have solid research lol I am working on research at Penn but its highly possible i wont publish by the time I apply. For BUMC and Yale i could see this hurting me but for the rest of the programs I mentioned is this going to be a huge issue if I dont publish? I know research is important but I spent so much time doing other things like busting my butt in class, on boards, networking and with my ECs that I just never spent time on research and Im pissed about it lol. Bad planning on my part
You can always reach out to programs and ask how important research is to them. Or use residency explorer. WF is pretty DO friendly. If you would be happy going there then I'd highly recommend rotating there.
 
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Your scores are good and competitive. Research is nice, but I encourage you to apply for the programs you are interested in even if high tier. If you score as competitively on Step/Level 2, you will be a hard candidate to look over for an interview at least, and if you get an interview, I think you could get in to your reach schools. If you can schedule an away at one or two of them, even better.
 
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Do you have solid research? Like, not just 2 case reports, but any meaningful publications? A lot of academic places gloss over DO's due to lack research. My advice is to find out which programs take their auditioning students, and find the academic IM programs with a few DO students in each class. A lot of people say not to audition for IM, and to let your stats speak for yourself. However, after doing a lot of auditions this year, I think they're very important. Unless you're super awkward and tend to piss people off, in which case, don't do them.
This or if you can get into an academic place or two and get strong letters. Unfortunately there are plenty of places who won't interview you even if you do an audition or will just give you a courtesy interview.

OP you have solid stats. Research would definitely be icing on top. At least if you get an interview you can bring up the stuff you are involved in.
 
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Deecee2DO

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This or if you can get into an academic place or two and get strong letters. Unfortunately there are plenty of places who won't interview you even if you do an audition or will just give you a courtesy interview.

OP you have solid stats. Research would definitely be icing on top. At least if you get an interview you can bring up the stuff you are involved in.
Thank you! Just to clarify, do you mean if I can get an audition or two at academic places and then get letters from the audition?
 

Deecee2DO

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Your scores are good and competitive. Research is nice, but I encourage you to apply for the programs you are interested in even if high tier. If you score as competitively on Step/Level 2, you will be a hard candidate to look over for an interview at least, and if you get an interview, I think you could get in to your reach schools. If you can schedule an away at one or two of them, even better.
When you say high tier do you mean high tier as in Hopkins, NYU langone, Sinai, NYP/Columbia, Cornell and MGH? Lol because i would be highly interested in these programs but none of them would ever touch me with a 10 foot pole being that Im a DO and my lack of pubs. High tier is where the superstars from T20 MD schools go. I always thought a DO student without pubs had no business applying to these places unfortunately
 
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AnatomyGrey12

I’ve only seen one person bring up letters. You need academic IM letters. No research will definitely hurt at the mid-tier and higher academic places, but if you can get a few academic faculty to vouch for you that would go a long way.


When you say high tier do you mean high tier as in Hopkins, NYU langone, Sinai, NYP/Columbia, Cornell and MGH? Lol because i would be highly interested in these programs but none of them would ever touch me with a 10 foot pole being that Im a DO and my lack of pubs. High tier is where the superstars from T20 MD schools go. I always thought a DO student without pubs had no business applying to these places unfortunately

No DO will match one of those programs without having some seriously heavy hitters in their corner.

I still believe UTSW IM is the highest I’ve ever seen a DO go.

@AlteredScale can give much better advice than most of us on this topic.
 
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Deecee2DO

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I’ve only seen one person bring up letters. You need academic IM letters. No research will definitely hurt at the mid-tier and higher academic places, but if you can get a few academic faculty to vouch for you that would go a long way.


No DO will match one of those programs without having some seriously heavy hitters in their corner.

I still believe UTSW IM is the highest I’ve ever seen a DO go.

@AlteredScale can give much better advice than most of us on this topic.
Thanks for the input! Would a fellow i have a good rapport with in my field of interest at a top academic program suffice as one of my academic letters or must be an attending? I have a great relationship witha fellow at Penn and another fellow at Langone in my field of interest
 
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When you say high tier do you mean high tier as in Hopkins, NYU langone, Sinai, NYP/Columbia, Cornell and MGH? Lol because i would be highly interested in these programs but none of them would ever touch me with a 10 foot pole being that Im a DO and my lack of pubs. High tier is where the superstars from T20 MD schools go. I always thought a DO student without pubs had no business applying to these places unfortunately

I was more referring to your list in the original post, but anecdotally, I have definitely seen DOs match into amazing programs just by having great board scores with minimal/no research.
 
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Need LORs from "known" people and some research. The research is more important IMO as everyone applying to mid-tier and above IM has something from what I understand.
 
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When you say high tier do you mean high tier as in Hopkins, NYU langone, Sinai, NYP/Columbia, Cornell and MGH? Lol because i would be highly interested in these programs but none of them would ever touch me with a 10 foot pole being that Im a DO and my lack of pubs. High tier is where the superstars from T20 MD schools go. I always thought a DO student without pubs had no business applying to these places unfortunately

Barring strong connections to the residency administration you really don't have a realistic shot at most of the programmes you mentioned. MGH, Hopkins, Columba and NYU are all basically off the table, and Sinai and Cornell are huge reaches (although they have taken outstanding IMGs in the past it's very rare). Like AnatomyGrey12 mentioned, probably the best recent DO match in IM was at UTSW, however that guy had a PhD which, generally, is worth more than what most MS3s and MS4s can come up with research-wise.
 
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FutureDoctor5000

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PCOM ga had one match at Emory IM, someone from my school matched at Tulane IM a few years ago too. Your scores are great but even mid tier IM isn’t step 1 score heavy, they care a lot about research(real pubs) and letters. Most people applying IM won’t have a 250+ so you would stand out in that regard but you will need to get a pub or two.
 

FutureDoctor5000

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I’ve only seen one person bring up letters. You need academic IM letters. No research will definitely hurt at the mid-tier and higher academic places, but if you can get a few academic faculty to vouch for you that would go a long way.




No DO will match one of those programs without having some seriously heavy hitters in their corner.

I still believe UTSW IM is the highest I’ve ever seen a DO go.

@AlteredScale can give much better advice than most of us on this topic.
I think there was an Emory IM and a Yale IM and a Baylor College of Medicine IM match last year, as well as a Tulane IM a couple years ago, not sure how highly ranked UTSW Is but I think the former are better/ more prestigious programs? Correct me if wrong.
 
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AnatomyGrey12

I think there was an Emory IM and a Yale IM and a Baylor College of Medicine IM match last year, as well as a Tulane IM a couple years ago, not sure how highly ranked UTSW Is but I think the former are better/ more prestigious programs? Correct me if wrong.

UTSW is a top 20.
 
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Deecee2DO

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PCOM ga had one match at Emory IM, someone from my school matched at Tulane IM a few years ago too. Your scores are great but even mid tier IM isn’t step 1 score heavy, they care a lot about research(real pubs) and letters. Most people applying IM won’t have a 250+ so you would stand out in that regard but you will need to get a pub or two.
Realistically will I even have time to get a pub by the time I apply? Im an M3 rn. If im barred to low tiers because of this that would be super discouraging considering how hard ive busted my butt past few years so that I could get some mid-tier looks
 
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FutureDoctor5000

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Realistically will I even have time to get a pub by the time I apply? Im an M3 rn. If im barred to low tiers because of this that would be super discouraging considering how hard ive busted my butt past few years for some mid tier looks
I am not too sure about that, it could happen if you join a solid lab, but you can audition at mid tier places and see what happens. But most people I know who matched at mid tier/upper mid tier IM had 230-240 step 1 and 240 step 2 and solid research, like peer reviewed pubs as well as a few case reports. Not saying you can’t match mid tier with no /little research, given your step score I would say you still have a shot and it can’t hurt just throwing in an app.
 
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Deecee2DO

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I think there was an Emory IM and a Yale IM and a Baylor College of Medicine IM match last year, as well as a Tulane IM a couple years ago, not sure how highly ranked UTSW Is but I think the former are better/ more prestigious programs? Correct me if wrong.
No one matched Yale IM from Touro. i fact checked that one. There was a Baylor DO match from Touro though and a Cleveland clinic (the original/real cleveland clinic) last match. UTSW is a T20 IM program-they are insanely good in the IM world so a DO matching there is absurd
 
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Deecee2DO

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Need LORs from "known" people and some research. The research is more important IMO as everyone applying to mid-tier and above IM has something from what I understand.
FML lol I dont know if Ill be able to get a pub by the time I apply since Im an M3. Feels like my time was wasted busting my butt for a high Step score in that regard I should have spent more time on research it looks like
 
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There was a Brown categorical IM match too. They were from Lake Erie. Are we stoked about that or is Brown more ~meh~ for IM?
 
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FutureDoctor5000

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No one matched Yale IM from Touro. i fact checked that one. There was a Baylor DO match from Touro though and a Cleveland clinic (the original/real cleveland clinic) last match. UTSW is a T20 IM program-they are insanely good in the IM world so a DO matching there is absurd
They are in the primary care track for the Yale IM match. Housestaff
Also Cleveland clinics main campus IM takes quite a few DO’s each match and are fairly DO friendly for a mid tier program.
 
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FML lol I dont know if Ill be able to get a pub by the time I apply since Im an M3. Feels like my time was wasted busting my butt for a high Step score in that regard I should have spent more time on research it looks like

You can always do a research year
 
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Deecee2DO

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There was a Brown categorical IM match too. They were from Lake Erie. Are we stoked about that or is Brown more ~meh~ for IM?
Im throwing an App to brown myself. Its probably an avg to very slightly below avg mid tier program. For a DO i think it looks great for us
 
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Deecee2DO

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They are in the primary care track for the Yale IM match. Housestaff
Also Cleveland clinics main campus IM takes quite a few DO’s each match and are fairly DO friendly.
Ahhh i knew there was a catch lol i had a feeling they didnt match categorical. Thats great to hear about cleveland clinic though!
 

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Ahhh i knew there was a catch lol i had a feeling they didnt match categorical. Thats great to hear about cleveland clinic though!
Lol it’s a categorical position!!! They can literally switch to the regular specialist track if they want. It’s not a “preliminary position” where they have to apply again. Look at the other people they matched with, there’s people from Harvard Med lol. Also you should know that some IM programs have “primary care tracks” that are categorical positions and I am not sure if they are easier to match then the specialties track but the great thing is you can switch tracks if you please and if your career goals change.
 
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Deecee2DO

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Lol it’s a categorical position!!! They can literally switch to the regular specialist track if they want. It’s not a “preliminary position” where they have to apply again. Look at the other people they matched with, there’s people from Harvard Med lol. Also you should know that some IM programs have “primary care tracks” that are categorical positions and I am not sure if they are easier to match then the specialties track but the great thing is you can switch tracks if you please and your career goals change.
Thats actually amazing if its a real loop hole like it sounds lol But yeah if the the other residents are from HMS then that sounds pretty legit
 
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Thats actually amazing if its a real loop hole like it sounds lol But yeah if the the other residents are from HMS then that sounds pretty legit
Yea not sure if it’s a loop hole tbh, you would still have to be a super star to match these positions anyway and compete with HMS students...
 
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Lexdiamondz

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Realistically will I even have time to get a pub by the time I apply? Im an M3 rn. If im barred to low tiers because of this that would be super discouraging considering how hard ive busted my butt past few years so that I could get some mid-tier looks

you definitely aren't barred to low tiers by not having research - that being said if you want a mid tier program in a competitive region you're going to need at least some research on your CV.

the entire point of going to an academic institution is to have access to resources for research, teaching and subspecialty clinical opportunities. its not a 100% requirement but its uphill without it.
 
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i'm all for shooting as high as you can, but is there a reason we are all so fixated on T20 programs? OP is your goal to be an academic physician, or some other detail I missed? your scores are very strong and you should match to a strong university program with plenty of opportunities for fellowship.
 
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diesel2202

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Thank you! Just to clarify, do you mean if I can get an audition or two at academic places and then get letters from the audition?
Yes, getting letters from known individuals at academic programs. Or if you impress them enough perhaps they will even make a call on your behalf.

I think there was an Emory IM and a Yale IM and a Baylor College of Medicine IM match last year, as well as a Tulane IM a couple years ago, not sure how highly ranked UTSW Is but I think the former are better/ more prestigious programs? Correct me if wrong.
There was an Emory and Baylor Houston match, as well as the Yale PC. The Emory individual was well known by the program. Don't know any details about the Baylor individual. Regardless, they were all impressive matches.
 
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Deecee2DO

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i'm all for shooting as high as you can, but is there a reason we are all so fixated on T20 programs? OP is your goal to be an academic physician, or some other detail I missed? your scores are very strong and you should match to a strong university program with plenty of opportunities for fellowship.
My #1 choice is GTown IM. Wanted to go there since I was a kid but will also apply broadly to other mid tiers and low tiers. We had a student from my school match there last year so she has been mentoring me. I dont want to do academic medicine but mid tier university programs are where id like to be because I want GI and I want to have research opportunities and resources during IM so I can have options in the fellowship match and be competitive for GI
 

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I'm going to go out on a limb and say it was Baylor Scott and White.
Must be, sorry. Didn’t even realize there were the 2 programs. Now that makes me bummed, but I still super respect this guy. Dude is a total baller. He was 248/698 on his step 1 and level 1.
 
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Lexdiamondz

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My #1 choice is GTown IM. Wanted to go there since I was a kid but will also apply broadly to other mid tiers and low tiers. We had a student from my school match there last year so she has been mentoring me. I dont want to do academic medicine but mid tier university programs are where id like to be because I want GI and I want to have research opportunities and resources during IM so I can have options in the fellowship match and be competitive for GI

Should be totally doable with your scores. Just get a couple pubs (doesnt even have to be anything high impact) and you will be good.
 
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AlteredScale

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Shoot for the stars if you have the application and you know what kind of application I’m talking about (high steps, strong research, and very strong letters from university/leadership faculty). Who knows, maybe you’ll land an interview in the NE or west where no DOs have gone! But once you hit this point, you should have no bearing of expectation that you will match there for many reasons:

1) you are competing against the best of the best MD students who will have stronger name brand, stronger scores, stronger letters, stronger word of mouth than you
2) unfortunately, depending on who views/scores/ranks your up, there could still be bias against you being a DO
3) higher ups including the chair of medicine can simply say “no DOs” and that’s game over

And you know what’s going to happen if you don’t match to the highest tier of IM program? Nothing. Because you’ll still match into a great academic IM program and get the training you need to be either be a great internist or go on to successful match into fellowship.
 
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Deecee2DO

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Shoot for the stars if you have the application and you know what kind of application I’m talking about (high steps, strong research, and very strong letters from university/leadership faculty). Who knows, maybe you’ll land an interview in the NE or west where no DOs have gone! But once you hit this point, you should have no bearing of expectation that you will match there for many reasons:

1) you are competing against the best of the best MD students who will have stronger name brand, stronger scores, stronger letters, stronger word of mouth than you
2) unfortunately, depending on who views/scores/ranks your up, there could still be bias against you being a DO
3) higher ups including the chair of medicine can simply say “no DOs” and that’s game over

And you know what’s going to happen if you don’t match to the highest tier of IM program? Nothing. Because you’ll still match into a great academic IM program and get the training you need to be either be a great internist or go on to successful match into fellowship.
thank you! Im gonna shoot for the stars but I understand how competitive it is out there. I can only try my best but my dream would be to match mid tier academic IM since I know thats more realistic with my background. Thanks again for the input! Will continute to hustle for pubs and academic letters over the next year.
 
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