4th year auditions

[CocoMelon0531]

thank you! Im gonna shoot for the stars but I understand how competitive it is out there. I can only try my best but my dream would be to match mid tier academic IM since I know thats more realistic with my background. Thanks again for the input! Will continute to hustle for pubs and academic letters over the next year.

Going to say a few things bc I’m at a mid tier program and know a few colleagues that match to break the ceiling IM stories known to the sdn community in the past couple of years:

If you’re serious about IM, get all four letters for ERAS from academic general IM or IM subspecialty faculties. Unless you have a few first author pubs, you’re not going to impress a lot of people considering your competition CV. Your match will depend on the people coming to bat for you via your LORs.

Get some research to check that research checkbox so that you don’t get screen out. If Georgetown is your dream program, I would do an audition there plus 2-3 more months there with other IM subspecialty or research. No need to audition at any other program bc IM match is heavily based on your Step 1, CV, and maybe interview performance.

Best of luck.

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[Deecee2DO]

Going to say a few things bc I’m at a mid tier program and know a few colleagues that match to break the ceiling IM stories known to the sdn community in the past couple of years:

If you’re serious about IM, get all four letters for ERAS from academic general IM or IM subspecialty faculties. Unless you have a few first author pubs, you’re not going to impress a lot of people considering your competition CV. Your match will depend on the people coming to bat for you via your LORs.

Get some research to check that research checkbox so that you don’t get screen out. If Georgetown is your dream program, I would do an audition there plus 2-3 more months there with other IM subspecialty or research. No need to audition at any other program bc IM match is heavily based on your Step 1, CV, and maybe interview performance.

Best of luck.

Do the letters have to come from academic faculty at the programs or doctors i know in the field who came from top tier academic places like MGH and Hopkins because I have great relationships with plenty of them but dont know any actual faculty yet since I havent rotated at these teaching hospitals. I guess the only way to get these kinds of faculty letters is to audition then? Youre saying no need to audition at any other program but then how else would I get to know these faculty to be able to have them write a letter for me

 

[CocoMelon0531]

Do the letters have to come from academic faculty at the programs or doctors i know in the field who came from top tier places like MGH and Hopkins because I have great relationships with plenty of them but dont know any actual faculty yet since I havent rotated at these teaching hospitals

All of the previous great IM matches in the past couple of yrs have LORs from attendings associated with that program in the past 4-5 yrs either as a faculty member or recent graduates as chiefs, so not necessary academic physicians.

This is why I heavily stress all four IM LORs bc each of those letters should open at least one door.

 

[CocoMelon0531]

Do the letters have to come from academic faculty at the programs or doctors i know in the field who came from top tier academic places like MGH and Hopkins because I have great relationships with plenty of them but dont know any actual faculty yet since I havent rotated at these teaching hospitals. I guess the only way to get these kinds of faculty letters is to audition then? Youre saying no need to audition at any other program but then how else would I get to know these faculty to be able to have them write a letter for me

You want strong letters and not mediocre letters. A faculty member at Gtow may come from other academic places and will open doors for you.

It is almost impossible to perform at a superstar level with limited time on the service unless you luck out with a great attending and seniors.

You will need time min 2 months at an academic institution to get yourself oriented and build connections.

I know of a colleague matched to a top 10 IM program in the past 4 years with great Steps, mediocre research, but great LOR from a cardio attending who was chief of that IM program past 4 years. She had other ECs going for her as well, including multiple leadership positions in the community and at school. She never auditioned at that program FYI.

 

[Deecee2DO]

All of the previous great IM matches in the past couple of yrs have LORs from attendings associated with that program in the past 4-5 yrs either as a faculty member or recent graduates as chiefs, so not necessary academic physicians.

This is why I heavily stress all four IM LORs bc each of those letters should open at least one door.

So one of my really good long time friends that is mentoring me now was a chief IM resident at Yale who is now finishing up his GI fellowship at NYU Langone. Is he someone that I could get a letter from or maybe he knows people that would help me grab an audition? I have two great mentors but both are fellows currently (one at Penn and other at NYU that i mentioned above) so Idk how much weight that carries. I have an elective for this year as an M3 for the month of march at UPenn so hopefully that could help me

 

[CocoMelon0531]

So one of my really good long time friends that is mentoring me now was a chief IM resident at Yale who is now finishing up his GI fellowship at NYU Langone. Is he someone that I could get a letter from or maybe he knows people that would help me grab an audition? I have two great mentors but both are fellows currently (one at Penn and other at NYU that i mentioned above) so Idk how much weight that carries. I have an elective for this year as an M3 for the month of march at UPenn so hopefully that could help me

No fellow letters. Lol

 

[AlteredScale]

So one of my really good long time friends that is mentoring me now was a chief IM resident at Yale who is now finishing up his GI fellowship at NYU Langone. Is he someone that I could get a letter from or maybe he knows people that would help me grab an audition? I have two great mentors but both are fellows currently (one at Penn and other at NYU that i mentioned above) so Idk how much weight that carries. I have an elective for this year as an M3 for the month of march at UPenn so hopefully that could help me

Would discourage letters from fellows. As an m3, it may be difficult to obtain a faculty letter since honestly, you’ll be new to the system, the EMR, so you’ll have to be vocal about it and see if they’ll write you a strong letter in your limited time there.

 

[Deecee2DO]

Would discourage letters from fellows. As an m3, it may be difficult to obtain a faculty letter since honestly, you’ll be new to the system, the EMR, so you’ll have to be vocal about it and see if they’ll write you a strong letter in your limited time there.

Thats great info thank you. If i make a good impression at Penn maybe that can help set up a good relationship for an audition next year? Ive been in contact with the PD back and forth over email and the fellow there said that hes going to pull for me to get published with them between march and Oct of next year. He does a ton of research there and hes been working with the head of research in that department for a long time. Hoping this happens but nothing is ever 100%. All i can do is hustle at this point, network for LORs and audition at the programs I really want to go to it seems like

 

[fldoctorgirl]

Hopping on this thread as I am planning on applying IM and have similar scores to OP, and was going to make this exact thread in the next few weeks lol.

255 Step 1/609 Level 1, also no research at the moment; I really hate research lol. Not interested in the "tier" of places as I'm pretty sure I don't want to do fellowship, main goal is to match in South Florida. I think the most "competitive" program in my region of interest would be University of Miami, which isn't really that competitive lol.

School requires 3 auditions/sub-I's. I am at a loss of where I should be doing these at. I feel like my scores are pretty high for the location/programs I'm interested in, and am nervous about shooting myself in the foot by auditioning at a program and not vibing with someone or something like that. I also don't think my lack of research is a big deal for the programs I want, but not sure so would love some feedback on that? I know with my scores I could shoot for the stars theoretically, but for my life goals I really don't think I need to just to be able to say I went to prestigious xyz program-- I'd much rather be back home with my family.

So, here's my issue: do I audition at random programs just to check the box for my school? Do I audition at the best places I can audition at and hope to get a LOR? Do I audition at other programs in FL, just not close enough to the ones I want to go to?

I know this seems neurotic, but my biggest concern is that I am afraid that if I don't try and audition at some of the programs I'm interested in, or at least in the South Florida region, programs will think I don't really want to go there (especially since my scores will likely be above average for most of these programs). I genuinely want to convey that I'd rather go to xyz community hospital in S.FL than a high tier program elsewhere, but am unsure how my auditions/etc will play into that perception. So....what's the best course of action here?

 

[AlteredScale]

Hopping on this thread as I am planning on applying IM and have similar scores to OP, and was going to make this exact thread in the next few weeks lol.

255 Step 1/609 Level 1, also no research at the moment; I really hate research lol. Not interested in the "tier" of places as I'm pretty sure I don't want to do fellowship, main goal is to match in South Florida. I think the most "competitive" program in my region of interest would be University of Miami, which isn't really that competitive lol.

School requires 3 auditions/sub-I's. I am at a loss of where I should be doing these at. I feel like my scores are pretty high for the location/programs I'm interested in, and am nervous about shooting myself in the foot by auditioning at a program and not vibing with someone or something like that. I also don't think my lack of research is a big deal for the programs I want, but not sure so would love some feedback on that? I know with my scores I could shoot for the stars theoretically, but for my life goals I really don't think I need to just to be able to say I went to prestigious xyz program-- I'd much rather be back home with my family.

So, here's my issue: do I audition at random programs just to check the box for my school? Do I audition at the best places I can audition at and hope to get a LOR? Do I audition at other programs in FL, just not close enough to the ones I want to go to?

I know this seems neurotic, but my biggest concern is that I am afraid that if I don't try and audition at some of the programs I'm interested in, or at least in the South Florida region, programs will think I don't really want to go there (especially since my scores will likely be above average for most of these programs). I genuinely want to convey that I'd rather go to xyz community hospital in S.FL than a high tier program elsewhere, but am unsure how my auditions/etc will play into that perception. So....what's the best course of action here?

Do your due diligence to rotate at those places. Obviously, your priority is location, and you’ll be able to express that interest even further by spending time them and learning their system early on.

I suggest audition at multiple programs in the location you want in USF. Get a feel for them and see what sort of work flow and schedule you enjoy, rlly dig in to see what the morale is at these programs. You’ll get the interviews for sure with you scores.

 

[AlteredScale]

Thats great info thank you. If i make a good impression at Penn maybe that can help set up a good relationship for an audition next year? Ive been in contact with the PD back and forth over email and the fellow there said that hes going to pull for me to get published with them between march and Oct of next year. He does a ton of research there and hes been working with the head of research in that department for a long time. Hoping this happens but nothing is ever 100%. All i can do is hustle at this point, network for LORs and audition at the programs I really want to go to it seems like

That sounds like a great plan. For research: it’s all talk until the project and your role is in front of you. Just an FYI, don’t do the project because it’s from UPenn. Do the project because it’s a topic you actually enjoy.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

Do your due diligence to rotate at those places. Obviously, your priority is location, and you’ll be able to express that interest even further by spending time them and learning their system early on.

I suggest audition at multiple programs in the location you want in USF. Get a feel for them and see what sort of work flow and schedule you enjoy, rlly dig in to see what the morale is at these programs. You’ll get the interviews for sure with you scores.

Sorry-- are you saying to audition at programs I actually want to go to (S. FL), or to audition at big name places?

I have thought about auditioning at USF, although the location is a bit farther than what I want for actual residency.

 

[Deecee2DO]

That sounds like a great plan. For research: it’s all talk until the project and your role is in front of you. Just an FYI, don’t do the project because it’s from UPenn. Do the project because it’s a topic you actually enjoy.

Great advice thank you. Its in my field of interest so obviously interested thats why I reached out to their department but I get what youre saying

 

[PorkChopsOG]

Sorry-- are you saying to audition at programs I actually want to go to (S. FL), or to audition at big name places?

I have thought about auditioning at USF, although the location is a bit farther than what I want for actual residency.

Audition at an academic program you'd be okay with matching at location wise, and then audition at 2 of the hospitals you're talking about that you'd love to go to. Just because you have high scores does not mean they won't take your audition seriously. In fact, doing an audition tells them you *really* want to go there. Get a letter from the PDs there too if you can.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

Audition at an academic program you'd be okay with matching at location wise, and then audition at 2 of the hospitals you're talking about that you'd love to go to. Just because you have high scores does not mean they won't take your audition seriously. In fact, doing an audition tells them you *really* want to go there. Get a letter from the PDs there too if you can.

I know that they'd take my audition seriously. It's just that I've always heard that auditions are discouraged for IM, particularly if you're a strong applicant on paper, because there is more potential to hurt your chances than to help. So, I'm concerned about screwing myself out of 3 programs when the geographic area I want to end up in isn't that big, so 3 programs is a lot. But on the other hand, I'm worried that if I audition completely out of state or elsewhere, the programs I am actually interested in will think they're just my safety. Hope that makes more sense? I just see the pros/cons of both situations.

 

[PorkChopsOG]

I know that they'd take my audition seriously. It's just that I've always heard that auditions are discouraged for IM, particularly if you're a strong applicant on paper, because there is more potential to hurt your chances than to help. So, I'm concerned about screwing myself out of 3 programs when the geographic area I want to end up in isn't that big, so 3 programs is a lot. But on the other hand, I'm worried that if I audition completely out of state or elsewhere, the programs I am actually interested in will think they're just my safety. Hope that makes more sense? I just see the pros/cons of both situations.

Yeah, I just lived through that. I've done 3 auditions so far, and as long as you're somewhat likeable you shouldn't hurt your chances. Remember, you're still a medical student so there is some leeway with expectations. As long as you show up, work hard, write good notes, and help out the residents the attendings/residents WILL notice you. If you were a mid tier MD student I wouldn't audition anywhere other than 1 reach program maybe. But we're DO students, our situation is different. We don't have a tertiary care hospital that our school is associated with that we can completely schedule 3rd and 4th year at. So take these auditions to the programs you want to apply. You will be fine, I promise.

 

[AlteredScale]

I know that they'd take my audition seriously. It's just that I've always heard that auditions are discouraged for IM, particularly if you're a strong applicant on paper, because there is more potential to hurt your chances than to help. So, I'm concerned about screwing myself out of 3 programs when the geographic area I want to end up in isn't that big, so 3 programs is a lot. But on the other hand, I'm worried that if I audition completely out of state or elsewhere, the programs I am actually interested in will think they're just my safety. Hope that makes more sense? I just see the pros/cons of both situations.

So I’m gunna say that that statement about not rotating/auditioning applies to MD students who have a home IM program that have gotten the experience they need to be prepared and at least, minimally confident and competent to start intern year. Additionally, they are able to obtain appropriate letters of recommendation from IM faculty.

DO students at least of my school typically get very minimal experience in the appropriate academic setting (pre round round, noon conference, admissions, presenting). So if you have not gotten a solid experience in third year, it’ll be beneficial to rotate as a fourth year to not only audition but get exposed to the work flow in IM.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

So I’m gunna say that that statement about not rotating/auditioning applies to MD students who have a home IM program that have gotten the experience they need to be prepared and at least, minimally confident and competent to start intern year. Additionally, they are able to obtain appropriate letters of recommendation from IM faculty.

DO students at least of my school typically get very minimal experience in the appropriate academic setting (pre round round, noon conference, admissions, presenting). So if you have not gotten a solid experience in third year, it’ll be beneficial to rotate as a fourth year to not only audition but get exposed to the work flow in IM.

Gross

 

[fldoctorgirl]

Yeah, I just lived through that. I've done 3 auditions so far, and as long as you're somewhat likeable you shouldn't hurt your chances. Remember, you're still a medical student so there is some leeway with expectations. As long as you show up, work hard, write good notes, and help out the residents the attendings/residents WILL notice you. If you were a mid tier MD student I wouldn't audition anywhere other than 1 reach program maybe. But we're DO students, our situation is different. We don't have a tertiary care hospital that our school is associated with that we can completely schedule 3rd and 4th year at. So take these auditions to the programs you want to apply. You will be fine, I promise.

So I’m gunna say that that statement about not rotating/auditioning applies to MD students who have a home IM program that have gotten the experience they need to be prepared and at least, minimally confident and competent to start intern year. Additionally, they are able to obtain appropriate letters of recommendation from IM faculty.

DO students at least of my school typically get very minimal experience in the appropriate academic setting (pre round round, noon conference, admissions, presenting). So if you have not gotten a solid experience in third year, it’ll be beneficial to rotate as a fourth year to not only audition but get exposed to the work flow in IM.

Thank you both for these responses. Definitely agree that I need audition rotations as a DO student, that is actually my exact fear haha-- since I won't have much exposure to a traditional IM 3rd year rotation with residents and what not, I am nervous to make my learning experience be at a program I am actually interested in. But, it seems like my worries are overblown! I'll probably audition at a mix of programs I actually want and programs lower on my list but still in my desired location (perhaps do the lower ranked ones first to get the experience).

Thanks! You've helped a bunch.

 

[PorkChopsOG]

DO students at least of my school typically get very minimal experience in the appropriate academic setting (pre round round, noon conference, admissions, presenting).

SO glad I went to the core site I did. I get all of this, and haven't struggled at all. But for those people who have those super rural core sites with no residents, they definitely need to adjust to having residents.

 

[hallowmann]

Thanks for the input! Would a fellow i have a good rapport with in my field of interest at a top academic program suffice as one of my academic letters or must be an attending? I have a great relationship witha fellow at Penn and another fellow at Langone in my field of interest

Its already been said, but it needs to be an attending, always. Is that fellow going to graduate this year?

Audition at an academic program you'd be okay with matching at location wise, and then audition at 2 of the hospitals you're talking about that you'd love to go to. Just because you have high scores does not mean they won't take your audition seriously. In fact, doing an audition tells them you *really* want to go there. Get a letter from the PDs there too if you can.

The other added benefit of the audition is determining if you actually really do want to go there. You can learn a lot of the pros and cons on an audition. Its just as useful to you as it is to them. A couple auditions made it clear to me that I didn't really want certain types of programs that I thought I would like on paper.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

^^^^^This!... excellent advice from all, but in your case, the audition will tell you if these are the people you want to work and live with for several years. If faculty arent engaging and resident are miserable and bad mouthing, it might not be a good fit for you. The culture at my residency was quite welcoming, although we worked very hard, my resident colleagues were fun people and easy to work with. This can be determined with an audition. Good luck and best wishes!

 

[cadingcading]

I do not have solid research lol I am working on research at Penn but its highly possible i wont publish by the time I apply. For BUMC and Yale i could see this hurting me but for the rest of the programs I mentioned is this going to be a huge issue if I dont publish? I know research is important but I spent so much time doing other things like busting my butt in class, on boards, networking and with my ECs that I just never spent time on research and Im pissed about it lol. Bad planning on my part

I don't know about Yale but you have to have connections. It's like a must. It's really not just about scores and research.

 

[cadingcading]

When you say high tier do you mean high tier as in Hopkins, NYU langone, Sinai, NYP/Columbia, Cornell and MGH? Lol because i would be highly interested in these programs but none of them would ever touch me with a 10 foot pole being that Im a DO and my lack of pubs. High tier is where the superstars from T20 MD schools go. I always thought a DO student without pubs had no business applying to these places unfortunately

The only way I would see you getting an interview here is if you were couples matching with an MD candidate or if you knew the PD and residents personally. Also, you need to have something interesting to offer besides board scores that they want and can use.

 

[sunshinefl]

The only way I would see you getting an interview here is if you were couples matching with an MD candidate or if you knew the PD and residents personally. Also, you need to have something interesting to offer besides board scores that they want and can use.

What “here” are you speaking for?

 

[Deecee2DO]

What “here” are you speaking for?

Top 20 IM programs

 

[sunshinefl]

Top 20 IM programs

Yeah I saw your posts, I just was trying to figure out what program this person was with/referring to, in order to put their comment into its context.

 

[musman9853]

Sorry-- are you saying to audition at programs I actually want to go to (S. FL), or to audition at big name places?

I have thought about auditioning at USF, although the location is a bit farther than what I want for actual residency.

i mean usf isnt in south florida lol. They're the university of west central florida.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

i mean usf isnt in south florida lol. They're the university of west central florida.

I'm aware lol. The poster wrote "I suggest audition at multiple programs in the location you want in USF.", but I think they meant to write South FL instead of USF.