5 Kids, Bankruptcy and NOW I decide to go to med school!

[youngfox]

Here is the situation. I am 32 years old with a wonderful supportive wife and 5 boys, ranging 1-9 years of old. Life has taken a turn and I have lost all financially. Two homes in foreclosure and most likely bankruptcy in the near future. My dad says to me "You should be a doctor" and all of a sudden a light bulb comes on inside me and says YES. I have never done anything in the medical field. But now I know this is what I need to do. My wife can see it too and she wants me to go for it. I still need to finish my BS, I figure I have about two years left to complete a BS in Biology. Here are a few of my questions. 1) Am I crazy!?! 2) Can I make in happen financially on grants, loans and government help or will I need to have a part time job? (Remember I will basically have nothing financially) 3) Can I even get the loans I need with horrible credit let alone a possible bankruptcy? 4) Should I consider the military HPSP or is it even possible with 5 kids and a wife?

That is it for now. Remember my wife is totally behind me on this and is even excited about it. I would love any suggestions or opinions.

Thanks

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[TriagePreMed]

I do think you're crazy and do caution you against doing something like this so impulsively. While it may be possible for you to get loans and such to cover undergraduate work, will this be enough to feed 5 kids, a wife, and yourself? Are you going to be able to there for them considering you'll need to do volunteering, research, study, etc.?

Even if you manage to survive this, with all your foreclosures and bankruptcy, do you think you'll be able to get the loans you need for medical school? You must also take into account that the military is not something for sure, so it would be best to proceed as if it weren't an option.

Once you graduate from medical school (6 years later assuming only 2 more of undergraduate), will you be able to feed your family with the salary of an intern/resident which is about +/- 40K?

I do honestly believe you need to take a step back and think this through a lot more than you have. You should explore other routes like getting an engineering degree, nursing degree, PA school, or even just accepting your losses and moving on to work.

Personally, I would not walk this walk at 32 w/a wife + 5 kids.

 

[arclight610]

Join the Army on a 3 year infantry contract and do 1 deployment to Afghanistan. You'll come back with $50,000 and when you get out you'll also have the GI Bill. Other than that, I don't see how it's going to to work out for you.

... Oh and pray!

 

[hopefuldoc97239]

My dad says to me "You should be a doctor" and all of a sudden a light bulb comes on inside me and says YES. I have never done anything in the medical field.

This sounds unimpressive. You'll need a much better explanation than the lightbulb defense if you want to get into medical school.

So, why do you want to be a physician?

Why not a nurse? Why not a pharmacist?

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

This sounds unimpressive. You'll need a much better explanation than the lightbulb defense if you want to get into medical school.

So, why do you want to be a physician?

Why not a nurse? Why not a pharmacist?

^^ This was my first thought as well.

Federal student aid is guaranteed regardless of credit, private loans are not. So, that said, if you could figure out a way to make it on what the feds will give you for financial aid, yes you can for sure do it. Other wise, you will need a source of income, I don't know if your wife works, but she'll need to if you're in med school, especially if you have poor credit. Alternately, filing for bankruptcy once, is better than 2 foreclosures... you would be able to keep one house, and your credit is hosed either way... just a thought... unless you have no income coming in, then you have bigger problems than whether you should be thinking about med school or not

 

[Dianyla]

My dad says to me "You should be a doctor" and all of a sudden a light bulb comes on inside me and says YES. I have never done anything in the medical field. But now I know this is what I need to do.

So how many, uh, days ago was this?

Here's what I would suggest, given your complex situation: First get some kind of entry-level licensure like an EMT, med tech, phlebotomist, etc. Use this to work part time while working to finish your undergrad. BTW, you don't need to major in Biology, but you do need to have specific prereqs done.

It's going to take more than 2 years given that you probably don't have the credit to fully finance this and you have a family to support. But, at the end of it, you will have some solid clinical experience, the bankrupcy will be a lot further away in the rear-view mirror, and you'll be at a better place to consider applying to a post-graduate health related field. Also, you'll be getting actual exposure which will better inform your desires and interests in the healthcare field.

 

[avatarftw]

Very bad idea. You just lost 3 years of attending earning power and have a meager enlisted salary and 50,000 as well.

I never understand how people don't comprehend the fact that delaying becoming a doctor is a big deal financially...suppose you make a very realistic compensation of 200,000 as a physician. Well, you make 120,000+ for your net compensation. 120,000 times three is 360,000, which greatly trumps the money you get from the military or whatever relatively lower paying job you could have had. Oh, well. Do what you want.

Join the Army on a 3 year infantry contract and do 1 deployment to Afghanistan. You'll come back with $50,000 and when you get out you'll also have the GI Bill. Other than that, I don't see how it's going to to work out for you.

... Oh and pray!

 

[Pons Asinorum]

You have 2 years of college, a wife and 5 kids. You are bankrupt. You have never done anything whatsoever medically related. You want to go $200k+ more into debt at usurious interest rates (not including the debt you'll pile up while finishing at least 2 more years of undergraduate; I'll go out on a limb and guess that your current GPA isn't great.) You are looking for advice, so I'll give mine. You need to get a job my friend. Unless your wife can support your family financially, while simultaneously raising your children as a single parent while you toil away on 80 hour a week, basically unpaid, for the next 9+ years. I'm all for a confident support system, but I don't think your wife and father realistically know what pursuing an MD is all about. Go get a job. If you have one, go get another one. Go read a Dave Ramsey book. Your problems will not be solved by pursuing a path so fraught with potential failure.

 

[DrMidlife]

Federal student aid is guaranteed regardless of credit

Not true for Grad Plus, which covers COA above $40k. As of 2009, there were only 17 MD schools with in-state COA under that threshold. (Anybody want to bet on how many will still come in under $40k next year? Probably just USUHS and maybe E. Carolina.)

Grad Plus requires clean credit. So you pretty much can't go to med school without clean credit.

So I would suggest:
1. Stave off bankruptcy or give up med school. The other credit damage might be survivable.
2. Get exposed to the medical field by volunteering in a hospital or clinic.
3. Get a degree with as close to straight A's as possible.
4. Regroup and reconsider after you complete step 3.

Best of luck to you.

 

[jl lin]

Youngfox,

I don't have a heck of a lot to offer other than, if you are meant to walk this path, Godspeed.

Do a lot of research on it, and try to shadow some docs or volunteer in a busy ED. This can help a little with seeing some of the realistic sides of being a physician.

Personally, I have recently met veterinarians that are much happier in their work than a good number of physicians. I'm not saying there aren't happy physicians; it's just a harder road post-medical school in my humble opinion. Post-med school, well, comparatively there is a lot more use and abuse of physicians. Yea, vets can work hard, but mostly, it is not at all the same kind of grind. Well past the time where you are off and just living for the thrill of your work, well, in human medicine, you are forced to go on and on, even when you think you can't anymore--at least not at the same grind and pace. This is not necessarily the same for vets post-vet school. It's really hard to find a lot of resident physicians smiling while working their many hours in the hospitals. But I've met number of very pleasant and smiling resident vets--they can work longer than 9 to 5 for sure, but not like residents in human medicine.

Of course the post-med. school physicians I've worked with were those in areas like surgery (grueling, period--the toughest in my opinion), critical care medicine, internal medicine, and emergency medicine--and these are tougher areas post-grad in my view, with things like, again, surgery--general surgery, CT surg, neurosurg, etc, being the tougher areas.)

It's a long road with no to little pay for at least the 4 years of MS and then 3 to 5 years of residency--or more, depending on the area of specialization, and then there's the ridiculously high cost of tuition. How many people come out of post-graduate education owing $200,000 or more, and that doesn't include undergrad and COL fees?

I am assuming your kids are small. How feasible is it for mom to work full-time w/ you killing yourself to get into med school, and then you basically making zilch through med school and not much in the next several years thereafter? And I don't have to tell you how expensive kids are. I know this first hand-and they are expensive w/o taking their college educations into consideration as well.

So I guess I'm saying do some research, get some experience in viewing the clinical perspectives, and work the figures. After all of that, take a long, hard look into if and why you really want to go this route.

I think people are basically saying that it's not the kind of path you choose like other careers that take a lot less of an investment of time, money, energy, and aggravation--and then there is waiting game that goes along a good percentage of the time. I say this, since there are only so many medical school seats and less than half that apply actually get into medical school.

It's only worth it to those that can't fathom doing anything else and who are willing to take the very real negatives along with the positives for basically the rest of their lives, or at least until retirement, which is getting pushed further and further out nowadays. (I don't see that changing any time soon.)

Those are the things you have to look it and balance with the core motivations for this pathway.

All the best to you.

 

[ChE04]

You have 2 years of college, a wife and 5 kids. You are bankrupt. You have never done anything whatsoever medically related. You want to go $200k+ more into debt at usurious interest rates (not including the debt you'll pile up while finishing at least 2 more years of undergraduate; I'll go out on a limb and guess that your current GPA isn't great.) You are looking for advice, so I'll give mine. You need to get a job my friend. Unless your wife can support your family financially, while simultaneously raising your children as a single parent while you toil away on 80 hour a week, basically unpaid, for the next 9+ years. I'm all for a confident support system, but I don't think your wife and father realistically know what pursuing an MD is all about. Go get a job. If you have one, go get another one. Go read a Dave Ramsey book. Your problems will not be solved by pursuing a path so fraught with potential failure.

Could not agree more, Pons nailed it. Bankruptcy notwithstanding, it sounds like you need a reality check on what med school and residency are like, both for you and your wife. I've found that most people have no idea about the time commitment required on a daily basis to see it through, even including many premeds I've met. Absolutely no way I would consider going down this road in your shoes.

I would also highly encourage you to read this thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=707469

 

[TriagePreMed]

Could not agree more, Pons nailed it. Bankruptcy notwithstanding, it sounds like you need a reality check on what med school and residency are like, both for you and your wife. I've found that most people have no idea about the time commitment required on a daily basis to see it through, even including many premeds I've met. Absolutely no way I would consider going down this road in your shoes.

I would also highly encourage you to read this thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=707469

I also got this feeling that the OP and his wife didn't understand what it means to be a doctor. I think his wife is thinking "omg I'm going to be married to a successful doctor and my children will all be like him" and he's thinking "how cool. I'll save lives and become rich and buy everything my kids want just after a few years of school." If you're reading OP, I don't mean this offensively. I think we all started with butterflies in our stomachs and then realized the cold reality. Some of us are crazy enough to do it.

 

[LifeTake2]

Ditto to everyone, but as I'm 34 w/8 kids I want to add some perspective.

I am walking this road, but it took me 6 years of debating, planning and preparing before I quit my job to pursue medicine. When I did I cashed out a substantial 401k, moved to an area with a cheaper cost-of-living, explained to my kids that life was going to be hard for a couple of years and why, etc.

It is admirable that you have decided to be a Dr, but you need to go on more than a gut-feeling. And you need to have detailed plans on how to achieve you goals.

I wish you the best in life and that you might find the right path for you.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

Not true for Grad Plus, which covers COA above $40k. As of 2009, there were only 17 MD schools with in-state COA under that threshold. (Anybody want to bet on how many will still come in under $40k next year? Probably just USUHS and maybe E. Carolina.)

Grad Plus requires clean credit. So you pretty much can't go to med school without clean credit.

So I would suggest:
1. Stave off bankruptcy or give up med school. The other credit damage might be survivable.
2. Get exposed to the medical field by volunteering in a hospital or clinic.
3. Get a degree with as close to straight A's as possible.
4. Regroup and reconsider after you complete step 3.

Best of luck to you.

Grad plus are private loans... they are not under the student aid guaranteed by the federal government. As I stated above, only the federal loans are guaranteed, not private. It specifically states in all the literature that grad plus are private loans

Also, to the OP, you need to think about how you got into your financial situation in the first place. This isn't exactly something that WON'T come up in your interview process. You need to have some serious life changes to prove this won't happen again. The news made a mockery of the woman who has an MD, no job, and 500k in student loans to pay back... Don't be her... Go get some financial counseling and deal with the situations at hand. Finish a BS/BA, and then come back and see if this is still what you want

 

[DrMidlife]

Grad plus are private loans... they are not under the student aid guaranteed by the federal government. As I stated above, only the federal loans are guaranteed, not private. It specifically states in all the literature that grad plus are private loans

Incorrect. Grad Plus is part of Parent Plus which is a federal program. Historically, private lenders were allowed to participate, but that ended last July. See here and here.

 

[monquin]

Honestly? You have two years...and you're getting your BS in Biology.
Make sure you have all of the pre-reqs out of the way, and see how you feel by the time you get to applying to med school.
The lucky thing is, at least med school doesn't require someone to have a specific degree. That way, you can wait and see what happens.
That's not to say that you should just wing it.
Get the pre-reqs, volunteer...shadow...etc. You'll know by the time you actually begin actively pursuing the medical career if you want to do it or not. The really big cost in pursing the dream of being a doctor is actually going to medical school.
In the mean-time, how about you get a job? At least get a part time job.
You know, you could go to a community college and get certified as a Nursing Assistant or something medically related. That way, you'll get experience (required for a competitive med school application) and you will be paid. Win-win situation there.
Also, if you decide in the end that you don't want to become a doctor after all, it's not like you would have really lost anything. You would have just finished your BS in Biology degree and had money in your pocket from your medicine-related job (which would also help you to network!).

If you decide NOT to pursue being an MD, or DO....have you considered being a Physician's Assistant?
It doesn't cost as much, and also doesn't take away as much family time (which you will probably need considering you have kids...but I'm a single parent, so I am all about proving that people with families can still live their dreams.)

 

[0919mmk]

Did I miss something? Why is everybody assuming the OP has no job? Obviously you need to be working while you figure all this out...

Honestly I am the last guy to rain on anybody's parade, but the bottom line whenever this whole topic comes up (i.e. "my life is a financial catastrophe but I want to goto med school now") is that you have to get your house in order before you can begin to think about this career. If you are dealing with bankruptcy, foreclosures, no money etc while you are in med school or even while you are doing orgo, I think it's near impossible to succeed. You need to deal with all that stuff first.

Beyond that, I echo the previous posts that AFTER you have at least gotten the financial situation under control (i.e. go see someone about craeting a plan to get out of this hole you're in), you then need to do your research, talk to docs, see what this process is before you jump in.

Good luck!

 

[Salient]

Incorrect. Grad Plus is part of Parent Plus which is a federal program. Historically, private lenders were allowed to participate, but that ended last July. See here and here.

Your MDApps is out of date, did you get in last year?

 

[monquin]

"2) Can I make in happen financially on grants, loans and government help or will I need to have a part time job? (Remember I will basically have nothing financially)" <<<That is why I told him to get a job. I can't speak for the rest, but the OP asked that question and I answered it.

Did I miss something? Why is everybody assuming the OP has no job? Obviously you need to be working while you figure all this out...

Honestly I am the last guy to rain on anybody's parade, but the bottom line whenever this whole topic comes up (i.e. "my life is a financial catastrophe but I want to goto med school now") is that you have to get your house in order before you can begin to think about this career. If you are dealing with bankruptcy, foreclosures, no money etc while you are in med school or even while you are doing orgo, I think it's near impossible to succeed. You need to deal with all that stuff first.

Beyond that, I echo the previous posts that AFTER you have at least gotten the financial situation under control (i.e. go see someone about craeting a plan to get out of this hole you're in), you then need to do your research, talk to docs, see what this process is before you jump in.

Good luck!

 

[arclight610]

Very bad idea. You just lost 3 years of attending earning power and have a meager enlisted salary and 50,000 as well.

I never understand how people don't comprehend the fact that delaying becoming a doctor is a big deal financially...suppose you make a very realistic compensation of 200,000 as a physician. Well, you make 120,000+ for your net compensation. 120,000 times three is 360,000, which greatly trumps the money you get from the military or whatever relatively lower paying job you could have had. Oh, well. Do what you want.

Since the OP mentioned he has faced bankrupcy and forclosure, I assume that he has little money. Also he has a family to take care of, increasing the cost burden. The military could be viable in jumpstarting a future medical career. Especially with the good vet benefits.

 

[myhandsarecold]

so u're just doing this for money eh? im sorry that you're in such a bind, but i really don't see this happening given your situation. i think you should look at more realistic solutions to your current problems. goodluck!

 

[hefe]

You're problem is that you need to take a step back and look at all the excessive spending and need for excessive spending in your past that got you into this situation. Taking on student loans for years on end to be a doctor because a "lightbulb" went off is a horrible plan and motivation.

You've made enough financially irresponsible decisions to have a large family, mortgages from 2 houses, debt, not enough savings to be unable to pay the debt, and now bankruptcy.

Taking 2-3 years off to be a student for just a shot to get into medical school and then possibly another 4 years of med school with another 200K + family loans + little income this whole time.

Honestly, as much as this forum is against nurses, it might just be your best plan to get yourself out of debt and take gradual steps to being financially sound.

Start out as a CRNA and work while going to school to get your RN & BSN. Then work some more and have your wife work part time. Perhaps family or friends can help in childcare. Perhaps after a handful of years working and creating intelligent, realistic financial planning, go to more school while working part time/ to get your DNP degree. This would be a much more step-wise and smarter plan that still can have a good outcome.

Becoming a doctor these days is not what your father may have envisioned from his experiences say 20-30 years ago. It's a very different ball game and realistically not everyone should be cut out for it. I think working your way up through nursing frugally is a much better idea for you.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Start out as a CRNA and work while going to school to get your RN & BSN. Then work some more and have your wife work part time. Perhaps family or friends can help in childcare. Perhaps after a handful of years working and creating intelligent, realistic financial planning, go to more school while working part time/ to get your DNP degree. This would be a much more step-wise and smarter plan that still can have a good outcome.

CRNA's are nurse anesthetists. I think what you mean is a CNA. The OP should really look into doing nursing. Some CCU nurses make 90-110k and still have a comfortable lifestyle.

 

[cbrons]

Unless you have extended family willing to support your children and wife financially, you are a total fool.

Here is the situation. I am 32 years old with a wonderful supportive wife and 5 boys, ranging 1-9 years of old. Life has taken a turn and I have lost all financially. Two homes in foreclosure and most likely bankruptcy in the near future. My dad says to me "You should be a doctor" and all of a sudden a light bulb comes on inside me and says YES. I have never done anything in the medical field. But now I know this is what I need to do. My wife can see it too and she wants me to go for it. I still need to finish my BS, I figure I have about two years left to complete a BS in Biology. Here are a few of my questions. 1) Am I crazy!?! 2) Can I make in happen financially on grants, loans and government help or will I need to have a part time job? (Remember I will basically have nothing financially) 3) Can I even get the loans I need with horrible credit let alone a possible bankruptcy? 4) Should I consider the military HPSP or is it even possible with 5 kids and a wife?

That is it for now. Remember my wife is totally behind me on this and is even excited about it. I would love any suggestions or opinions.

Thanks

 

[avatarftw]

No, your net worth will still be impacted negatively by delaying med school matriculation.

Option 1: Get a job that pays 40,000 gross to pay down debt, etc.

Option 2: Take on relatively (emphasis on that word) little debt for the future income expected and have more years of physician earning power. (200,000+ gross)

However, you have to definitely like what you do. I think that the OP should figure out if he wants to be a doctor or if there is a better career. If you only practice a few years, medicine is usually a poor choice both professionally and financially.

Since the OP mentioned he has faced bankrupcy and forclosure, I assume that he has little money. Also he has a family to take care of, increasing the cost burden. The military could be viable in jumpstarting a future medical career. Especially with the good vet benefits.

 

[MCATism]

As echoed by everyone else in this thread, "Becoming a doctor" is not a cure to your financial woes. Why?

(1) TIME + KIDS: First and foremost, you have kids. The time you'll put into schooling will be time with your children that you've forever lost. It's not worth it.

(2) TIME + MONEY: Medical school is a massive financial undertaking, not just because of tuition fees, but also because of lost working time.

(3) KIDS + MONEY: Your family needs money now, not 9+ years from now. Look for career training that you can do in 2-3 years, allowing you to get back into the competitive job market asap.

(4) UNCERTAINTY: The medical school admissions process is uncertain. It not only means you might not get in, it also means that if you do, you may have to move your family to an entirely different location - and twice, if your residency is in yet another different place. Unfair to drag your wife and kids around like that.

(5) B.S. IN BIOLOGY: In all honesty, my advice would be to pursue a major with more instant returns on your investment. Nursing, teaching, and business administration are all bachelor's degrees that have high employment rates right out of school - which sounds like exactly what you need.

(6) MORE DEBT? SERIOUSLY? If you're already having trouble with finances, taking out hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loans won't help that. Go for a low-cost community college program that can give you maximum "bang for your buck". Trades like electrician, plumbing, heating and air conditioning, etc have very high pay compared to the amount of time required for training, and you often get paid during the training process. This is a much more stable track.

Anyways, I hate that we're all ripping into you like this, but we just hope that our honest advice can be helpful to you. Furthermore, I don't feel that bad, considering that you seem to only want to enter medicine for the money, which isn't something that is a good idea in the long run.

Whatever you do, good luck! There are many ways out, but the best ones are the stable ones that won't require too heavy of an investment of time or money on your part.

 

[youngfox]

Thanks, everyone for your thoughts and opinions. That is why I posted the thread. Just to clear up a few things. I definitely am not looking at it for the money. 10 years ago I was at school, newly married, and looking to get a degree in Business. But instead I jump at the opportunity to work with my brothers as a real estate investor. For the past 10 years I have been flipping homes and made a pretty good living along the way. Obviously I should have managed my money better. These last few years killed us. We got stuck with over 30 homes that that had lost so much value that we were under water on then. The bank finally came calling, and that is how I am in the current situation. The reason I am looking at med school is that I feel like I sold out. I went the easy route instead of developing the talents I know I have. I love serving people and I know I can do something more with my life. I do agree with most of you, that it seems crazy and that a nursing route seems more reasonable. I will definitely look into it. My wife and I know that it would be an insanely hard thing to do, med school that is, I am sure we cannot even comprehend how hard. But I don't want to give up on the idea quite yet. I know it is something that I have to really want, and to be honest there are a few other routes I am looking at. One thing is for sure, I am going to finish my BS. So really I have at least a few more years to think about it. Thanks again for all the comments.

 

[katiemaude]

Youngfox, I encourage you not to give up on your dream. While I don't know if I would have had the courage to pursue this route with a family, many have done so successfully. Having your wife in full support is key. The good news is that exploring your dream won't close any of the other medically related avenues you could follow if MD/DO proves to be too much for your family. I would start with shadowing to give you a realistic idea of what a doctor's life is like, and expose yourself to PAs as well. In the mean time, get some kind of certification others have mentioned to qualify you for a job in the medical field. You can earn money and get your clinical experience, which is a requirement for PA school and highly recommended for medical school. While you are getting the certifications you need and doing shadowing, start a non-medical volunteer gig.

Then enroll in general chemistry (or any necessary prereqs first, such as algebra). You will need a full year of gen chem and general biology to get into PA school at the master's level so you will be fulfilling requirements for both paths.

Nursing has a different set of prereqs that don't fulfill med school requirements, but fill some PA school requirements such as anatomy and physiology, and microbiology.

If a year from now, after some shadowing and taking classes you no longer want to do this, you will have several classes that can go towards a variety of degrees, new job qualifications and the sense of well being from taking a shot at your dream.

Edited to say: The NP (nurse practitioner) route is essentially as long as the MD route because new requirements involve getting a PhD. The upside is you would be able to work as an RN while pursuing further study. Also, many states require a master's degree for PAs, and that is two years minimum on top of undergraduate study. The fastest way to get out there and working is the nursing route, but you could also work in support positions as you go through undergraduate study for any of these options.

 

[OrangeRoost]

Not only will you have to finish your last two years, you have to think of the required admissions test. The MCAT is not cheap. I believe it was $240 just to take. Then you have prep material (like TBR, Princeton, Kaplan, etc) which will cost you a pretty penny and, in your current situation, a prep course is not feasible. Many people, like myself, also have to take it twice.

If I was in your situation, I would go PA. You would have to take the required courses and the GRE. Many individuals I know have taken the GRE and did awesome on it with minimal studying or the ones that have studied only used one prep book. Assuming one prep book+test, you'll pay a fraction of what the MCAT would have set you back. Then you have two grueling years and you'll be out. If you still want to be a MD/DO, then you could go back later on when you are financially more stable.

If you are really scraping the bucket, you could get a BSN instead of the BS and be an RN. You have mouths to feed and this should be your main consideration. I wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide.

 

[jl lin]

Edited to say: The NP (nurse practitioner) route is essentially as long as the MD route because new requirements involve getting a PhD. The upside is you would be able to work as an RN while pursuing further study. Also, many states require a master's degree for PAs, and that is two years minimum on top of undergraduate study. The fastest way to get out there and working is the nursing route, but you could also work in support positions as you go through undergraduate study for any of these options.

I don't think you are including the rigorous residency programs and processes for board certification that the physician route requires compared with NP. The new requirements for
DNP are still not as rigorous as the MD and DO route. And there have been plenty of doctorate programs for nurses for many, many years, decades now. The DNP is what is new.

The difference is the approach/focus.
Also, there have been quite a number of programs that require/required the same General Bio and Gen Chem that most pre-meds take. In fact, in a number of programs they are prereqs for the Microbiology and the A&Ps.
The big difference is the Organic Chems and Physics requirements--also Calc and Biochem if the particular meds schools required those as prereqs. In either program, math courses like Statistics are still required.


And of course some programs have their own honing-like Biological or Chem courses for nursing--bypassing some of the non-human biology and chemistry stuff. So, it depends on the program.

CRNA programs are tough to get into b/c there are only so many seats. You are required to have a BSN first and usually at least a year in critical care nursing--to me, ICU at high level centers is better, but nowadays they are allowing nurses to have a year of ED--even though ICU at high acuity centers, to me, is a lot more specific and relevant to anesthesia.


The CRNA programs have moved to Masters and are moving to doctorates as part of the
completion. It's an intensive 2.7 to 3 years in such programs and will have to become longer to meet the desire for doctorate requirements. Is it as intensive as medical
school then residency? Not necessarily. But I do think the poster meant to write CNA. CNA
courses nowadays are more focused on homecare, so you might want to consider a care tech role in the hospital.

Not a lot of CCU nurses are making six figures, unless they are working OT or work in certain areas of California or work some contract/agency jobs.

Average salaries for RNs are between I'd say $50,000 to mid $70's across the country, the higher end being w/ a lot of experience.

 

[lsu hopeful]

You're right that you have time to think about this while you're finishing your BS in Biology. If you're at all interested in being a doctor, and given your situation, I would highly suggest the PA route.

1. Look up your nearest PA schools on the internet
2. Find out what their pre-req classes are
3. Ensure those classes are included in your coursework as you finish your BS
4. Get a job and take undergrad loans while you finish your BS to help your financial situation
5. Make A's in all of your classes
6. Finish your BS in Biology
7. Apply to PA school
8. Finish PA school
9. Profit

 

[TriagePreMed]

Youngfox, I encourage you not to give up on your dream.

Dream in his case is much more literal. I don't think a "light bulb" moment with his dad saying something tongue-in-cheek counts as a "dream" in the sense it does for the rest of us.

The OP posted back acting like his wife and him knew what was involved in becoming a doctor, but it was clear from the first post that they didn't. I could put money down on a bet they've already moved on from this crazy idea.

 

[hopefuldoc97239]

katiemaude: I'm only familiar with the NP programs at two schools, so forgive my question because perhaps I am a bit naive.

Regarding this statement:

Edited to say: The NP (nurse practitioner) route is essentially as long as the MD route because new requirements involve getting a PhD.

Where (what schools) is this true? The schools I'm aware of still offer master's level NP programs, and neither offer a clinical PhD. Both offer a DNP, which is not as rigorous as a PhD.

 

[cbrons]

Edited to say: The NP (nurse practitioner) route is essentially as long as the MD route because new requirements involve getting a PhD.

wrong.. why would you give advice when you know you don't know what you are talking about? You do not need a PhD. You must go beyond masters-level education to get a DNP (Doctor of Nursing Practice). In any case, that path is not nearly as long as the MD route because most of it is online in the latter years and the number of training hours are under 1000 whereas a resident (MD) has >16,000.

 

[hefe]

CRNA's are nurse anesthetists. I think what you mean is a CNA. The OP should really look into doing nursing. Some CCU nurses make 90-110k and still have a comfortable lifestyle.

Thanks Triage, I do mean CNA, it was as you said a mistype... I was reading the anesthesiology forum before jumping here. I was describing similarly how it is to balance work and school going up the nursing ranks to take steps toward financial stability from the current mess. And those DNP's aren't nearly as hard to get as MD's, besides the less intensive structure, they can flexibly and online. I don't know of any MD's setup that way.

Anyways, OP need to get real, children deserve some stability and having food and a roof first.

 

[lsu hopeful]

wrong.. why would you give advice when you know you don't know what you are talking about? You do not need a PhD. You must go beyond masters-level education to get a DNP (Doctor of Nursing Practice). In any case, that path is not nearly as long as the MD route because most of it is online in the latter years and the number of training hours are under 1000 whereas a resident (MD) has >16,000.

The general trend for this is swiftly changing to doctorate. It's not widespread, yet, but it has become generally agreed upon that the system is in the motions of changing the NP to a doctorate. Current students are probably fine, but students just starting nursing school pre-reqs will likely see the doctorate requirement. Note that I said likely...

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

Dream in his case is much more literal. I don't think a "light bulb" moment with his dad saying something tongue-in-cheek counts as a "dream" in the sense it does for the rest of us.

The OP posted back acting like his wife and him knew what was involved in becoming a doctor, but it was clear from the first post that they didn't. I could put money down on a bet they've already moved on from this crazy idea.

You are extremely quick to judge. None of us know this guy from Adam, who's to say that he previously wasn't interested and his dad rekindled the interest by reminding him that at one point in his life he wanted to be in healthcare? I certainly don't know. You at one point told me that because my husband took a job in Colorado to help us avoid a financial catastrophe that clearly we are going to be divorced soon because in reality he's already moved on from me (super nice of you BTW). I realize that you sit behind a screen and not many people know you in person, but you don't always make the correct assumption, and in reality, if this negativity showed up in any of your applications for school, or your interview, it would sink you. Your negative attitude shows through on many of the posts you make. You can call it "being realistic" if you'd like, but in reality it's just being hurtful, spiteful, and negative. Would you tell a future patient who only has a 15% chance of surviving their cancer to just screw it because they're obviously going to die anyway? That's what you're telling this guy...

 

[Pons Asinorum]

I'll agree that TPM goes over the top at times, your anecdote included, but this OP needs some tough, informed love that he isn't getting at home. That's why he came here and opened his situation up to scrutiny. He's being negative, and many others are as well, because this guy is walking into an ambush, plain and simple.

You are extremely quick to judge. None of us know this guy from Adam, who's to say that he previously wasn't interested and his dad rekindled the interest by reminding him that at one point in his life he wanted to be in healthcare? I certainly don't know. You at one point told me that because my husband took a job in Colorado to help us avoid a financial catastrophe that clearly we are going to be divorced soon because in reality he's already moved on from me (super nice of you BTW). I realize that you sit behind a screen and not many people know you in person, but you don't always make the correct assumption, and in reality, if this negativity showed up in any of your applications for school, or your interview, it would sink you. Your negative attitude shows through on many of the posts you make. You can call it "being realistic" if you'd like, but in reality it's just being hurtful, spiteful, and negative. Would you tell a future patient who only has a 15% chance of surviving their cancer to just screw it because they're obviously going to die anyway? That's what you're telling this guy...

 

[katiemaude]

wrong.. why would you give advice when you know you don't know what you are talking about? You do not need a PhD. You must go beyond masters-level education to get a DNP (Doctor of Nursing Practice). In any case, that path is not nearly as long as the MD route because most of it is online in the latter years and the number of training hours are under 1000 whereas a resident (MD) has >16,000.

Why are you being a jerk, cbrons?

I did investigate the DNP route (yes I forgot the D in my first post). The nursing schools I talked to informed me that if I wanted to go this route, students were being counseled to expect to follow through with a PhD. Did you look into nursing? Are you a nurse? Just curious. You seem to know so much about everything.

It is also a long road, and I am counting the schooling part in saying that the years of education are similar. Residency is still training, but it's paid training. Nowhere did I state that the training involves the same level of rigor - they are two different professions. It's a wonderful field if becoming a nurse is what you want to do.

To the OP, I'd take the naysayer posts very seriously. They are not incorrect in saying this is going to be a much more difficult road for your family. However, it is *your* family and going to medical school is not tantamount to child abuse. I'd advise you to PM the other parents on this board about the realities. And good luck!

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

I'll agree that TPM goes over the top at times, your anecdote included, but this OP needs some tough, informed love that he isn't getting at home. That's why he came here and opened his situation up to scrutiny. He's being negative, and many others are as well, because this guy is walking into an ambush, plain and simple.

Pons, I'm not saying the guy is or isn't anything... just that it isn't our place to judge. I think we've all agreed that the financial mess has to be straightened out before considering med school. Also that PA school, nursing, etc are all viable options. Being realistic and being mean aren't the same

 

[StudyShy]

wrong.. why would you give advice when you know you don't know what you are talking about? You do not need a PhD. You must go beyond masters-level education to get a DNP (Doctor of Nursing Practice). In any case, that path is not nearly as long as the MD route because most of it is online in the latter years and the number of training hours are under 1000 whereas a resident (MD) has >16,000.

It would take around seven years to get a DNP which is supposed to go in effect in 2015 (4 years BSN + 3 at least for the DNP).

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

Why are you being a jerk, cbrons?

I did investigate the DNP route (yes I forgot the D in my first post). The nursing schools I talked to informed me that if I wanted to go this route, students were being counseled to expect to follow through with a PhD. Did you look into nursing? Are you a nurse? Just curious. You seem to know so much about everything.

It is also a long road, and I am counting the schooling part in saying that the years of education are similar. Residency is still training, but it's paid training. Nowhere did I state that the training involves the same level of rigor - they are two different professions. It's a wonderful field if becoming a nurse is what you want to do.

It would take around seven years to get a DNP which is supposed to go in effect in 2015 (4 years BSN + 3 at least for the DNP).

NP/DNP training is nowhere close to the length/rigor of physician training. A medical student half-way through 3rd year has far superior training than full-blown NPs/DNPs. And that 3rd year med student still has a minimum of 4 more years of training to undergo. The similarities between NP/DNP school and med school + residency are almost non-existent. So, no, the education is not remotely similar.

You can get your NP/DNP within 2-3 years with the majority of training being online. Not only that, there are several direct-entry programs that require no prior healthcare experience at all. And more of these programs are springing up each day.

There is no PhD requirement either. The DNP is touted as a "clinical doctorate" (laughable). Not a research doctorate, which is what a PhD would be.

To stay on topic, OP, I agree with many of the others who question your impulsiveness. In addition, with the situation you're in, life will be extremely difficult for you and your family for the next decade or so, especially when you'll be, in all likelihood, taking on another $100-150k+ debt. Think very carefully about this before moving forward.

Edit: The beginning part came off a bit harsh. I want to clarify that it wasn't directed at any of the posters I've quoted. Just wanted to point out that there's a huuuuuuge difference in training between physicians and NPs/DNPs.

 

[hopefuldoc97239]

A medical student half-way through 3rd year has far superior training than full-blown NPs/DNPs.

This statement is so outrageously over-generalized that it's blowing my eff-ing mind.

I watched a fourth-year MD student try unsuccessfully for 20 minutes to draw blood from a patient with a very good vein. It wouldn't take a decent RN even two minutes to do the whole procedure from start to finish.

Are NP's the same as physicians? No. And most of the NP's I know would never make such a claim. But let me give you some very good advice before your next med school interview: Start talking trash about nurse practitioners and you will risk not getting accepted. Many physicians have good working relationships with their NP colleagues and will not be impressed by professional discourtesy.

As an example: While shadowing a physician at a primary care clinic a couple months ago a patient came in one day after a serious nose bleed. The patient could have had an appointment to see a nurse practitioner the same day as her nose bleed, but refused to see anyone other than her PCP. The physician politely told the patient, "You should have seen my nurse practitioner. She worked for years in the emergency department and is much better at this sort of thing than I am!"

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

This statement is so outrageously over-generalized that it's blowing my eff-ing mind.

I watched a fourth-year MD student try unsuccessfully for 20 minutes to draw blood from a patient with a very good vein. It wouldn't take a decent RN even two minutes to do the whole procedure from start to finish.

Are NP's the same as physicians? No. And most of the NP's I know would never make such a claim. But let me give you some very good advice before your next med school interview: Start talking trash about nurse practitioners and you will risk not getting accepted. Many physicians have good working relationships with their NP colleagues and will not be impressed by professional discourtesy.

As an example: While shadowing a physician at a primary care clinic a couple months ago a patient came in one day after a serious nose bleed. The patient could have had an appointment to see a nurse practitioner the same day as her nose bleed, but refused to see anyone other than her PCP. The physician politely told the patient, "You should have seen my nurse practitioner. She worked for years in the emergency department and is much better at this sort of thing than I am!"

Yea, no...I'm sending you a PM so we can discuss this in private rather than further hijack this thread.

 

[n3xa]

This statement is so outrageously over-generalized that it's blowing my eff-ing mind.

I watched a fourth-year MD student try unsuccessfully for 20 minutes to draw blood from a patient with a very good vein. It wouldn't take a decent RN even two minutes to do the whole procedure from start to finish.

Are NP's the same as physicians? No. And most of the NP's I know would never make such a claim. But let me give you some very good advice before your next med school interview: Start talking trash about nurse practitioners and you will risk not getting accepted. Many physicians have good working relationships with their NP colleagues and will not be impressed by professional discourtesy.

As an example: While shadowing a physician at a primary care clinic a couple months ago a patient came in one day after a serious nose bleed. The patient could have had an appointment to see a nurse practitioner the same day as her nose bleed, but refused to see anyone other than her PCP. The physician politely told the patient, "You should have seen my nurse practitioner. She worked for years in the emergency department and is much better at this sort of thing than I am!"

The "laughable" part was a bit much.

 

[Antibodies]

This statement is so outrageously over-generalized that it's blowing my eff-ing mind.

I watched a fourth-year MD student try unsuccessfully for 20 minutes to draw blood from a patient with a very good vein. It wouldn't take a decent RN even two minutes to do the whole procedure from start to finish.

Are NP's the same as physicians? No. And most of the NP's I know would never make such a claim. But let me give you some very good advice before your next med school interview: Start talking trash about nurse practitioners and you will risk not getting accepted. Many physicians have good working relationships with their NP colleagues and will not be impressed by professional discourtesy.

As an example: While shadowing a physician at a primary care clinic a couple months ago a patient came in one day after a serious nose bleed. The patient could have had an appointment to see a nurse practitioner the same day as her nose bleed, but refused to see anyone other than her PCP. The physician politely told the patient, "You should have seen my nurse practitioner. She worked for years in the emergency department and is much better at this sort of thing than I am!"

Drawing blood is not a brain intensive activity. Just requires a skill that a HS graduate can picked up after a few night classes.

 

[hematosis]

here is the situation. I am 32 years old with a wonderful supportive wife and 5 boys, ranging 1-9 years of old. Life has taken a turn and i have lost all financially. Two homes in foreclosure and most likely bankruptcy in the near future. My dad says to me "you should be a doctor" and all of a sudden a light bulb comes on inside me and says yes. I have never done anything in the medical field. But now i know this is what i need to do. My wife can see it too and she wants me to go for it. I still need to finish my bs, i figure i have about two years left to complete a bs in biology. Here are a few of my questions. 1) am i crazy!?! 2) can i make in happen financially on grants, loans and government help or will i need to have a part time job? (remember i will basically have nothing financially) 3) can i even get the loans i need with horrible credit let alone a possible bankruptcy? 4) should i consider the military hpsp or is it even possible with 5 kids and a wife?

That is it for now. Remember my wife is totally behind me on this and is even excited about it. I would love any suggestions or opinions.

Thanks

yes.

 

[Eik Ooc]

Gimli

Oh Gawd, I can't wait for The Hobbit to come out.

 

[StudyShy]

NP/DNP training is nowhere close to the length/rigor of physician training. A medical student half-way through 3rd year has far superior training than full-blown NPs/DNPs. And that 3rd year med student still has a minimum of 4 more years of training to undergo. The similarities between NP/DNP school and med school + residency are almost non-existent. So, no, the education is not remotely similar.

You can get your NP/DNP within 2-3 years with the majority of training being online. Not only that, there are several direct-entry programs that require no prior healthcare experience at all. And more of these programs are springing up each day.

There is no PhD requirement either. The DNP is touted as a "clinical doctorate" (laughable). Not a research doctorate, which is what a PhD would be.

To stay on topic, OP, I agree with many of the others who question your impulsiveness. In addition, with the situation you're in, life will be extremely difficult for you and your family for the next decade or so, especially when you'll be, in all likelihood, taking on another $100-150k+ debt. Think very carefully about this before moving forward.

Edit: The beginning part came off a bit harsh. I want to clarify that it wasn't directed at any of the posters I've quoted. Just wanted to point out that there's a huuuuuuge difference in training between physicians and NPs/DNPs.

I wasn't talking about the the rigor of the NP/DNP program; I was talking about the length. You can only complete classes in a certain sequence (even when these classes can be taken online). It will take at least seven years to complete (via the BSN + graduate school route). It's a LONG process, not necessarily a difficult one. Yes, I feel that a DNP is a ridonkulous degree.

 

[Valvool]

This is certainly doable. I am currently a third year medstudent in a private allopathic program, on HPSP scholarship. When I was accepted to medical school I had four children between the ages of 3 and 8, and my credit was poor. Also we had to move several states away to a place where we did not have any tangible family support.

It has not been an easy road, but it certainly has not been the misery that many naysayers promised it would be. I have greatly enjoyed this path thus far, and I would do it again in a heartbeat. Financially it has not been as difficult as many predicted--there are federal loans one can take out on top of the HPSP scholarship/stipend if one can document expenses related to the children. We are actually slightly more comfortable during medschool than we were before.

I also want to address the issue of 'time away from family' that has been raised on this thread. I had plenty of time for my family during first and second year of medschool, and was able to attend all school functions, parent-teacher conferences, etc. Unless there is a mandatory lecture attendance policy, first and second year of medschool are quite flexible, schedule-wise. Third year is much more demanding on my time, and I have missed some of the kids' events/functions. This should get a bit better during fourth year, but then will peak during residency. It is what it is, and it's a sacrifice I am comfortable with. In our situation, our children still have a stay-at-home parent, their father, my husband, who has agreed to stay home and be a fulltime caregiver as I follow this path.