50% relief from cervical RFA

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clubdeac

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What’s your guys’ approach for the patient who gains only 50% improvement following C3-5 RFA? Can you start the whole process over targeting the adjacent levels?

I think we pain physicians typically target C3-5 even though C2-3 and C5-6 are the most common levels implicated in facetogenic neck pain.
 
What’s your guys’ approach for the patient who gains only 50% improvement following C3-5 RFA? Can you start the whole process over targeting the adjacent levels?

I think we pain physicians typically target C3-5 even though C2-3 and C5-6 are the most common levels implicated in facetogenic neck pain.
look at imaging again and also do another patient history/exam.

First question is do they have significant upper neck pain and/or headaches? if yes, then consider C2-C3 though most of us will capture TON while lesioning C3. However, be sure to directly palpate C2-C3.

Second question is do they have significant neck pain inferior to your lesion location (C5-C6 or C6-C7)? Be sure to directly palpate C5-C6, C6-C7

Third question- "is the remaining 50% of their pain in the middle 80% of their neck( C3-C5 area). If so, they got 50% relief either because half of their pain is from DDD or because you didn't do a thorough lesion C3-C5.

Assuming good technique, the most common issue is they would benefit from C6 RFA. When this happens I tell the patient that in 6 months, we can add C6 if they pay for that add on level in cash, or if they want we can repeat the MBB, targeting C4-C6, and then just do C4-C6 RFA going forward.

If a patient doesn't have significant headaches and never had ACDF, I will rarely include C3.

C4-C6 RFA is more useful for more patients with non surgerized necks compared with C3-C5 RFA, (unless the C3-C4 looks particularly bad on imaging or you strongly suspect cervicogenic headaches). I rarely do C3-C5 RFA unless they had C5-C7 ACDF.

C4-C6 provides better relief for most patients without cervicogenic headache and without prior ACDF.
 
Yes, all good points which I have thought of.

Most of these patients have neck pain extending from the occiput to the trap so it’s hard to pick just two joints. Annoys me that we can no longer ablate 3 joints.

Can’t remember, can I go straight to targeting the C5-6 joint with mbbs followed by ablation if I’ve just ablated the C3-4 and C4-5 joints as in the above scenario?
 
Probably multifactorial pain.

Fwiw I do C2-4 > C3-5 = C4-6 > C5-7

Agree. Most patients have most symptomatic facets at the top or bottom of their neck. Not the middle.

That said, if I’m not sure about levels, and insurance will allow it, I’ll do C3-C6 RFA for severely degenerated necks or post major trauma. Our local WC, Cigna, UHC, Aetna, Auto, still allow 3 joint bilateral RFA.

The problem you describe is a challenge mostly for Medicare and BCBS patients.
 
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Yes, all good points which I have thought of.

Most of these patients have neck pain extending from the occiput to the trap so it’s hard to pick just two joints. Annoys me that we can no longer ablate 3 joints.

Can’t remember, can I go straight to targeting the C5-6 joint with mbbs followed by ablation if I’ve just ablated the C3-4 and C4-5 joints as in the above scenario?
With the pain map you're describing, it's C5-6 and C6-7 that you should be targeting according to Cooper's study.
 

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With the pain map you're describing, it's C5-6 and C6-7 that you should be targeting according to Cooper's study.
Interesting…when was this study. Seems different from the classic textbook diagrams based on previous data from Aprill and Bogduk. Those suggest axial neck pain primarily from C3-4 and C4-5

1745099048076.png
 
There is no predictable pattern. Most people have curves and rotations in their cervical spines and this is the backdrop for the pain. Just hitting the same joints routinely seems like a random approach.
 
Interesting…when was this study. Seems different from the classic textbook diagrams based on previous data from Aprill and Bogduk. Those suggest axial neck pain primarily from C3-4 and C4-5

View attachment 402397

There you go. Instead of using normal volunteers like Aprill and injecting them with hypertonic saline, Cooper used real patients and correlated the pain map with MBBs.
 
Another factor to consider is that there can be a direct articular branch in the cervical spine that is mostly likely "hit" by MBBs due to medication spread but not by the RFA lesion, meaning there can be greater discrepancy between MBB and RFA results.

 
If needles were in the right spot and it seemed like I had targeted the proper levels, I would throw out my cliches about how 50% is pretty good actually, “we call it pain management not pain elimination”, “I bet you’d be happy if I got rid of 50% of your taxes”, etc etc
This…..don’t overthink it. Do the RF but document a higher percentage. The patients typically don’t understand anyway.
 
50% is very good response. There are other reasons to hurt besides the facet joints.

Agree with the second point but not the first.

I would consider 50% relief after RFA to be an adequate response.

I would consider 80% relief after RFA to be a “very good” response.
 
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What is everyone's technique on positioning for CRFA? Does it differ for your approach for CESI?
 
50% is a solid response to a condition for which there is no cure. I have become very comfortable telling ppl they need to accept the fact they’re gonna hurt. I’ll do a host of things for you; I’ll try my best but there’s no cure for age. If I do a bunch of things and you’re not better, I’ll help you find another pain doctor if you want another opinion.
 
I generally target C2-3, and C4-5. You get C3-4 by sheer virtue of having done C2-3, and C4-5. If they have persistent shoulder (trap/periscapular), we can consider C5-6 later.

Also, don't even consider doing anything until at least 6 weeks post RFA. Some people just take that long to recover. I use Trident and Cooled, which I feel have longer recovery times - especially Cooled.
 
Hello all,
Relatively new attending, and I've been having mixed results with my cerival RFAs. Most recently, this pt is now 6 weeks post RFA with improved pain that she used to get with looking side to side which she is happy with, but now feels that she is having difficulty holding her head up if she's bending forward or looking downward. If her head isn't upright she has discomfort/pain that is different than before which is disconcerting. I did the right and left side separately, separated by two weeks. 80 degrees x 90 seconds. Any technique pointers based off my images? Haven't had this amount of neck weakness before.
 

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Hello all,
Relatively new attending, and I've been having mixed results with my cerival RFAs. Most recently, this pt is now 6 weeks post RFA with improved pain that she used to get with looking side to side which she is happy with, but now feels that she is having difficulty holding her head up if she's bending forward or looking downward. If her head isn't upright she has discomfort/pain that is different than before which is disconcerting. I did the right and left side separately, separated by two weeks. 80 degrees x 90 seconds. Any technique pointers based off my images? Haven't had this amount of neck weakness before.
Very nice placement. Sometimes you get neck weakness after the RF. Recommend isometric strengthening, PT, and it will get better in a month or two.
 
agree it will improve. i personally like to come medial to lateral so your needle tip is more parallel to the nerve.

did you use venom or some system that creates a big lesion?
 
Hello all,
Relatively new attending, and I've been having mixed results with my cerival RFAs. Most recently, this pt is now 6 weeks post RFA with improved pain that she used to get with looking side to side which she is happy with, but now feels that she is having difficulty holding her head up if she's bending forward or looking downward. If her head isn't upright she has discomfort/pain that is different than before which is disconcerting. I did the right and left side separately, separated by two weeks. 80 degrees x 90 seconds. Any technique pointers based off my images? Haven't had this amount of neck weakness before.
Great placements. Head drop syndrome is a potential risk, but this seems like some denervation that will be compensated for in time and not be a long term weakness
 
Very nice placement. Sometimes you get neck weakness after the RF. Recommend isometric strengthening, PT, and it will get better in a month or two.
agree it will improve. i personally like to come medial to lateral so your needle tip is more parallel to the nerve.

did you use venom or some system that creates a big lesion?
Thanks, reassuring to hear that it should improve shortly (and that my technique doesn't look too off). I used a 20g with 10mm active tip, curved, so nothing out of the ordinary that would create a bigger lesion. I like the idea of coming in a little more medial to lateral, may try that next time
 
Beautiful. Curious what the age of the patient is as her spine looks very nice and crisp. I love doing our life on these kind of spines. Unfortunately, they are a few and far between for me.
 
Hello all,
Relatively new attending, and I've been having mixed results with my cerival RFAs. Most recently, this pt is now 6 weeks post RFA with improved pain that she used to get with looking side to side which she is happy with, but now feels that she is having difficulty holding her head up if she's bending forward or looking downward. If her head isn't upright she has discomfort/pain that is different than before which is disconcerting. I did the right and left side separately, separated by two weeks. 80 degrees x 90 seconds. Any technique pointers based off my images? Haven't had this amount of neck weakness before.
Better than the vast majority of your peers. I would increase the temperature to 85C, and you will forget about this pt after you’ve done a few hundred cases without this problem.
 
Thanks all, appreciate the validation that I'm doing what I'm supposed to. I like the idea of 85C as well, going to try this as well. Agree that her anatomy images so well (she's 60), which is why I was surprised she was having so much weakness (but again thanks for the helpful input/reassurance, all!).
 
I would not be surprised if you get the same response even extending the levels. Sometimes 50% is the maximum you get and tbh I think that's reasonable. Patients also tend to undereport improvement. I've seen lots of patients fixated on the last 10%. Heck, I've seen tons of pain docs chase 80% improvement with "nerve blocks". The goal is not complete resolution. It's management and making quality of life better.
 
F/u yesterday on a repeat c3-5 rfa on a retired docs pt with c5-7 acdf, no relief. I look at prior images he did c5-7 rfa… thoughts?
 
Typically, insurance isn’t smart enough to figure that out unless you tell on yourself in the note tied to the auth request.
i find it pretty stupid/maddening/funny that i literally need to omit relevant clinical info to get things approved. this is a perfect example. like if i am doing a mbb when some pain "might" be from the disc but im not allowed to say that b/c then it gets denied. or if there is concomitant stenosis, but i cant say that. so stupid.
 
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Only posterior fusions are off limits. Anterior fusions are good to go.
 
I initially thought this post was trolling.
Zomg guys, my injection didn’t give 100% relief. They’re still complaining

Welcome to our speciality..
 
Yeah I was under impression they don’t approve and we don’t do ablations at fused level even if anterior

this pt has acdf and prior doc has been doing the rfa at the fusion level with allegedly 100% relief everytime (but his note says above the fusion bc of chance of denial im guessing)
Second guessing my needle placement due to lack of efficacy I look at his images only to find it’s at the fused level lol
 
You could do C45 and C7T1. Likely get similar results and get paid without having to be shady
 
F/u yesterday on a repeat c3-5 rfa on a retired docs pt with c5-7 acdf, no relief. I look at prior images he did c5-7 rfa… thoughts?
I’ve found that acdf frequently still has movement of the facet joints leading to pain. I have never had it be an issue with prior auths but other people here certainly have far greater numbers than I do. You could also consider PNS at those levels.
 
I go based on their referred pain pattern. Generally, that results in doing C2-3 and C4-5 (TON, C3, C4, C5). Residual pain in the trapezius region is probably C5-6, which we can hit later if needed.
 
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