$700 application fee -- why ABPN?!!

[Doctor Bagel]

I just signed up for my a subspecialty board certification exam (is it worth it? I still don't know). Anyway, the $1200 exam fee sucks, but why in the world is there a $700 application fee? What are they doing that merits $700. I get that they need to verify who I am and that I'm eligible for the exam and that they need to support some sort of software to help with this process. How does that add up to $700? Can we ask ABPN this type of stuff?

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[splik]

This sucks big time, and unfortunately I think you've missed the boat to escape ABMS as addiction medicine is now going to be certified by the American Board of Preventive Medicine (part of ABMS) not ABAM which was much more reasonable. It's being hailed as a big win for addiction medicine but it's the nail in the coffin for the field - in a few years you won't be able to boarded in it unless you do an addiction medicine fellowship and they are expanding them to 125 fellowships across the country. They can hardly fill the spots as it is.Addiction Medicine was become a popular certification to do as the requirements were emimently reasonable, the course offerings educational, the price fair, and MOC requirements uncumbersome. Sadly these organizations are ultimately entirely self-serving and willing to destroy themselves in the pursuit of glory and money.

Although I do believe there should be some sort of qualification to practice in a field, it is quite clear the creeping trend towards requiring more and more fellowship or subspecialist training by people who grandfathered in, and maintenance of certification by people who are exempt with their lifelong certifications, is a massive shakedown and an epic scam to defraud physicians because we're too supine to revolt. Board Certification was developed to qualify specialists but now it is suppose to assure the public that physicians are of the highest quality despite there being no evidence supporting this - meaning it is nothing more than a large-scale confidence trick par excellance. Most of the psychiatrists going around prescribing patients 3 concomitant benzodiazepines and other disgraceful practices are board certified. Almost every state medical board (exceptions are CO, MT, SD) has annual CME requirements effectively rendering MOC CME requirements unnecessary. As for the $700 application fee (which I had to pay as well as $500 "late fee") - how else is Larry Faulkner (ABPN President) supposed to command his compensation of $843,591?

 

[Doctor Bagel]

This sucks big time, and unfortunately I think you've missed the boat to escape ABMS as addiction medicine is now going to be certified by the American Board of Preventive Medicine (part of ABMS) not ABAM which was much more reasonable. It's being hailed as a big win for addiction medicine but it's the nail in the coffin for the field - in a few years you won't be able to boarded in it unless you do an addiction medicine fellowship and they are expanding them to 125 fellowships across the country. They can hardly fill the spots as it is.Addiction Medicine was become a popular certification to do as the requirements were emimently reasonable, the course offerings educational, the price fair, and MOC requirements uncumbersome. Sadly these organizations are ultimately entirely self-serving and willing to destroy themselves in the pursuit of glory and money.

Although I do believe there should be some sort of qualification to practice in a field, it is quite clear the creeping trend towards requiring more and more fellowship or subspecialist training by people who grandfathered in, and maintenance of certification by people who are exempt with their lifelong certifications, is a massive shakedown and an epic scam to defraud physicians because we're too supine to revolt. Board Certification was developed to qualify specialists but now it is suppose to assure the public that physicians are of the highest quality despite there being no evidence supporting this - meaning it is nothing more than a large-scale confidence trick par excellance. Most of the psychiatrists going around prescribing patients 3 concomitant benzodiazepines and other disgraceful practices are board certified. Almost every state medical board (exceptions are CO, MT, SD) has annual CME requirements effectively rendering MOC CME requirements unnecessary. As for the $700 application fee (which I had to pay as well as $500 "late fee") - how else is Larry Faulkner (ABPN President) supposed to command his compensation of $843,591?

Wow, $843k. Yet we're the ones who are unprofessional for noting these ridiculous charges.

I looked around at the ABAM site today trying to see if that was an option, and the requirements for certification were buried under all this discussion about who great it is that they're moving to ABMS certification. The other downside of ABPN is that addiction psychiatry is only offered every 2 years, so if I don't sign up this year, I can't sign up again until 2018.

 

[cookymonster]

I'm curious how many of us are paying for these exams and fees out of pocket, and how many are just letting our jobs cover it through contract reimbursements and CME allowances. As long as more and more of us are taking employed positions that "require" continuous board certification and contract to cover the cost, these cartels can basically charge what they want.

 

[F0nzie]

I agree with Splik that fellowships in Addiction will be hard to fill. I think we need WAY more business in the field of addiction for this to happen. It seems like for every 100 jobs in psych there is 1 in addiction. Yes, we have millions of Americans who abuse substances but if I remember correctly from NSDU stats, only around 1.5% of substance abusers believe they have a problem and make an effort to get help. It's unfortunate that ABAM has abandoned its core values of reaching out to all specialities with awareness and knowledge only to lock itself in the corner with ABMS recognition. Recognition happens when society and medicine change, not when a certifying body says so.




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[Doctor Bagel]

I agree with Splik that fellowships in Addiction will be hard to fill. I think we need WAY more business in the field of addiction for this to happen. It seems like for every 100 jobs in psych there is 1 in addiction. Yes, we have millions of Americans who abuse substances but if I remember correctly from NSDU stats, only around 1.5% of substance abusers believe they have a problem and make an effort to get help. It's unfortunate that ABAM has abandoned its core values of reaching out to all specialities with awareness and knowledge only to lock itself in the corner with ABMS recognition. Recognition happens when society and medicine change, not when a certifying body says so.




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I feel like the supposed shortage of addiction providers is really just a shortage of buprenorphine providers. If addiction does not equal purely Suboxone, then yeah jobs aren't so plentiful. Why am I taking this test?

 

[sunlioness]

I just signed up for my a subspecialty board certification exam (is it worth it? I still don't know). Anyway, the $1200 exam fee sucks, but why in the world is there a $700 application fee? What are they doing that merits $700. I get that they need to verify who I am and that I'm eligible for the exam and that they need to support some sort of software to help with this process. How does that add up to $700? Can we ask ABPN this type of stuff?

They do it because we're a captive audience. Employers require board certification. Mainly, they do it because they can.

I kinda hate them.


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[Extralong]

Thats why you try to get your hospital system, of whatever system your in, to recognize NBPAS. Much cheaper, progress through CME, not huge lump sums for tests, but must be initially board certified by ABMS.
https://nbpas.org/

 

[F0nzie]

Thats why you try to get your hospital system, of whatever system your in, to recognize NBPAS. Much cheaper, progress through CME, not huge lump sums for tests, but must be initially board certified by ABMS.
https://nbpas.org/

Do we know if any hospitals or insurance companies have recognized NBPAS?


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[Shikima]

Do we know if any hospitals or insurance companies have recognized NBPAS?


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https://nbpas.org/hospitals-accepting-nbpas-diplomats/

Hospitals accepting NBPAS as alternative certification for hospital privileges as of 03/07/2016*

1) Arkansas Heart Hospital: Little Rock, AR
2) Baptist Medical Center Princeton: Birmingham, AL
3) Baylor St. Luke’s Medical Center/Texas Heart Institute: Houston, TX
4) Brandon Regional Hospital: Tampa, FL
5) Capital Region Medical Center: Jefferson City, MO – (affiliated w/ Univ. of Missouri)
6) Columbia Basin Hospital: Ephrata, WA
7) Community First Medical Center: Chicago , IL
8) Davita Dialysis Center: Sparta, TN
9) Florida Hospital Heartland Division: Sebring, FL
10) Frederick Memorial Hospital: Frederick, MD
11) Hoag Hospital: Newport, CA – in process – MEC approval
12) Holmes Regional Medical Center: Melbourne, FL
13) Huntington Hospital: Pasadena, CA
14) Lawrence & Memorial Hospital: New London, CT
15) Mendocino Coast District Hospital: Fort Bragg, CA
16) Mercy Medical Center: Cedar Rapids, IA
17) Miller County Hospital: Colquitt, GA
18) Oklahoma Heart Hospital: Oklahoma City, OK
19) Palm Bay Hospital: Palm Bay, FL
20) Providence Little Company of Mary: Torrance, CA
21) Shawnee Mission Medical Center: Kansas City, MO
22) Sibley Memorial Hospital – Johns Hopkins Medical System: Washington, DC.
23) Southeast Missouri Hospital: Cape Girardeau, MO
24) St Luke’s Hospital: Cedar Rapids, IA
25) St. Mary Medical Center: Langhorne, PA
26) Texas Health Presbyterian: Rockwall, TX
27) Texas Neurological Society: Austin , TX
28) University of Pittsburgh Medical Center Hamot: Erie, PA
29) Virginia Gay Hospital: Vinton, IA
30) Wuesthoff Hospital: Melbourne, FL
31) Yukon-Kiskokwm Health Corporation: Bethel, AK

*Note: Some of the above hospitals have changed their bylaws to allow alternatives to ABMS or AOA certification that include NBPAS without specifically naming NBPAS

 

[Shikima]

On a similar related matter, I've not done any MOC or paid any monies.

Suggestions on the next, best step considering I've been quite vocal against ABMS/ABPN and their price gouging?

 

[F0nzie]

On a similar related matter, I've not done any MOC or paid any monies.

Suggestions on the next, best step considering I've been quite vocal against ABMS/ABPN and their price gouging?

Thanks for the info man. I know you take some insurance. Are you penalized for not participating in maintenance?


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[SmallBird]

This sucks big time, and unfortunately I think you've missed the boat to escape ABMS as addiction medicine is now going to be certified by the American Board of Preventive Medicine (part of ABMS) not ABAM which was much more reasonable. It's being hailed as a big win for addiction medicine but it's the nail in the coffin for the field - in a few years you won't be able to boarded in it unless you do an addiction medicine fellowship and they are expanding them to 125 fellowships across the country. They can hardly fill the spots as it is.Addiction Medicine was become a popular certification to do as the requirements were emimently reasonable, the course offerings educational, the price fair, and MOC requirements uncumbersome. Sadly these organizations are ultimately entirely self-serving and willing to destroy themselves in the pursuit of glory and money.

Although I do believe there should be some sort of qualification to practice in a field, it is quite clear the creeping trend towards requiring more and more fellowship or subspecialist training by people who grandfathered in, and maintenance of certification by people who are exempt with their lifelong certifications, is a massive shakedown and an epic scam to defraud physicians because we're too supine to revolt. Board Certification was developed to qualify specialists but now it is suppose to assure the public that physicians are of the highest quality despite there being no evidence supporting this - meaning it is nothing more than a large-scale confidence trick par excellance. Most of the psychiatrists going around prescribing patients 3 concomitant benzodiazepines and other disgraceful practices are board certified. Almost every state medical board (exceptions are CO, MT, SD) has annual CME requirements effectively rendering MOC CME requirements unnecessary. As for the $700 application fee (which I had to pay as well as $500 "late fee") - how else is Larry Faulkner (ABPN President) supposed to command his compensation of $843,591?

What would people think about someone writing a consensus statement about the problematic nature of the ABPN certification process and fees, and we can get people to endorse it here? I think we could likely get a large number of people supporting such a statement. I nominate splik as he seems to have a handle on the issues.

 

[masterofmonkeys]

They don't care. WE are a captive powerless audience. We can kvetch all we want to. if you look at how loud Internal Medicine got, they got way louder than psychiatrists are capable of, and...nothing happened.

 

[Shikima]

Thanks for the info man. I know you take some insurance. Are you penalized for not participating in maintenance?


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I haven't seen a reduction in payment from Ins company nor backlash from the hospital. I'm pressuring my dept chair to bring this information before the medical staff but he hasn't. He's of the 'old guard' where they have lifetime certs plus he's got one foot on the way out.

 

[Shikima]

They don't care. WE are a captive powerless audience. We can kvetch all we want to. if you look at how loud Internal Medicine got, they got way louder than psychiatrists are capable of, and...nothing happened.

You're right, they do not care. They won't care until residencies start to speak up and other leadership shares their disdain. It is imperative that people start talking about and pushing for NBPAS where they are working, including insurance companies. This is how we'll make change, but making alternative boards.

Afterall.... isn't the what the US is known for? Market competition? No different in this case.

 

[notdeadyet]

Reading the charter and bylaws of NBPAS is interesting. Non-profit, no compensation for board members. I'm happy with what I saw.

 

[F0nzie]

I love the logo

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[notdeadyet]

I hear an electric guitar power chord when I see that logo.

Though my instinct response is to shove sharps into it.

 

[FlowRate]

I'm more concrete... it looks like a left ventricle.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I hear an electric guitar power chord when I see that logo.

Though my instinct response is to shove sharps into it.

I want to "Just Do It". Three times.

 

[notdeadyet]

You're a better man than I.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

You're right, they do not care. They won't care until residencies start to speak up and other leadership shares their disdain. It is imperative that people start talking about and pushing for NBPAS where they are working, including insurance companies. This is how we'll make change, but making alternative boards.

Afterall.... isn't the what the US is known for? Market competition? No different in this case.

The ABPN people are all residency director/chair types, so it's doubtful that residency directors will take this cause on. I guess the APA started something and then backed down.

I'm hoping my job will pay for this (I asked and haven't heard yet). I think my job would have paid for my adult certification, but I'm not required to be board certified in a subspecialty for my job. Honestly I think I'd be less offended if the test just cost $1900 rather than this splitting it into an exam fee and a registration fee -- seems like trying to cover up the actual cost.

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

This sucks big time, and unfortunately I think you've missed the boat to escape ABMS as addiction medicine is now going to be certified by the American Board of Preventive Medicine (part of ABMS) not ABAM which was much more reasonable. It's being hailed as a big win for addiction medicine but it's the nail in the coffin for the field - in a few years you won't be able to boarded in it unless you do an addiction medicine fellowship and they are expanding them to 125 fellowships across the country. They can hardly fill the spots as it is.Addiction Medicine was become a popular certification to do as the requirements were emimently reasonable, the course offerings educational, the price fair, and MOC requirements uncumbersome. Sadly these organizations are ultimately entirely self-serving and willing to destroy themselves in the pursuit of glory and money.

Although I do believe there should be some sort of qualification to practice in a field, it is quite clear the creeping trend towards requiring more and more fellowship or subspecialist training by people who grandfathered in, and maintenance of certification by people who are exempt with their lifelong certifications, is a massive shakedown and an epic scam to defraud physicians because we're too supine to revolt. Board Certification was developed to qualify specialists but now it is suppose to assure the public that physicians are of the highest quality despite there being no evidence supporting this - meaning it is nothing more than a large-scale confidence trick par excellance. Most of the psychiatrists going around prescribing patients 3 concomitant benzodiazepines and other disgraceful practices are board certified. Almost every state medical board (exceptions are CO, MT, SD) has annual CME requirements effectively rendering MOC CME requirements unnecessary. As for the $700 application fee (which I had to pay as well as $500 "late fee") - how else is Larry Faulkner (ABPN President) supposed to command his compensation of $843,591?

YES YES YES

I want to "Just Do It". Three times.

Before they get sued they should team up with Phil Knight to take on ABMS

 

[Extralong]

NBPAS's website also has information and sample letters on how to request NBPAS certification privileges at the entity/hospital system we are in.

 

[milesed]

I'm glad someone is publicly going after this problem.


http://www.clinicalpsychiatrynews.com/?id=2407&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=484417&cHash=8dcfca841da73d3981aec6a0d9ec444f

Not sure why link won't work, but highlight it and right click-> go to

 

[Shikima]

I'm glad someone is publicly going after this problem.


http://www.clinicalpsychiatrynews.com/?id=2407&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=484417&cHash=8dcfca841da73d3981aec6a0d9ec444f

Not sure why link won't work, but highlight it and right click-> go to

Excellent article to explain the interactions with ABMS. The condescending shoulder shrugging is beyond contempt.

 

[cookymonster]

http://www.clinicalpsychiatrynews.c...484417&cHash=8dcfca841da73d3981aec6a0d9ec444f

I was able, in my most diplomatic tone – I am after all, a diplomate of the ABPN – to once again pose the vexed question about why it was that child psychiatrists were not required to maintain their certification in general psychiatry as well. This time, Dr. Faulkner did not defer to some anonymous committee at the AAGP, but said the decision was based on the fact that geriatric psychiatrists are more likely to see adult patients than are child psychiatrists. He regarded me with the assurance you’d expect from someone confident that he’d had the last word. I had no idea of the statistics, which I assumed supported his pronouncement. “I see,” I said. Dr. Faulkner smiled again. Game over.

“I’m a child psychiatrist, and I’d say about 40% of my practice is adult psychiatry” said a man next to me who had been listening to our conversation. Dr. Faulkner frowned.

“I’m a geriatric psychiatrist. I’d say about 10% of my practice is adult psychiatry,” I chirped.

Dr. Faulkner frowned again. He looked at his watch.

“Anyway,” he said.

We looked at him. He shrugged.

“Yeah, well what can you do?” he said.

We shrugged.

“Gotta go; nice meeting you,” he said

To answer the bolded question:
I don't know, Dr. Faulkner, how about doing one or more of the following?

- Require the same MOC standards of ALL ABPN diplomates?
- Eliminate Part IV of MOC?
- Eliminate the outrageous late fee for certification exams?
- More transparent accounting of what you do with our fees?
- Provide evidence that MOC requirements enhance care and improve outcomes?
- Make us a less crappy exam?

 

[Shikima]

Please read this;

http://drwes.blogspot.com/

 

[PikminOC]

Npbas

 

[Shikima]

This next article is a must read;

http://thepracticalpsychosomaticist...hiatry-director-hey-im-unhappy-about-the-moc/

 

[PikminOC]

I'm curious how many of us are paying for these exams and fees out of pocket, and how many are just letting our jobs cover it through contract reimbursements and CME allowances. As long as more and more of us are taking employed positions that "require" continuous board certification and contract to cover the cost, these cartels can basically charge what they want.

And this is the goal. Put pp docs out of existence

 

[milesed]

This next article is a must read;

http://thepracticalpsychosomaticist...hiatry-director-hey-im-unhappy-about-the-moc/

Nice. I can't help but wonder what a survey of psychiatrist (who have no financial ties to MOC activities) would show regarding this. Maybe that would show the powers that be that no one likes MOC unless they are profiting from it. My employer pays nothing towards my CME, license or other similar requirements. I don't mind the test every 10 years, the CME, but I do mind the insane costs associated with it all.

 

[Shikima]

Nice. I can't help but wonder what a survey of psychiatrist (who have no financial ties to MOC activities) would show regarding this. Maybe that would show the powers that be that no one likes MOC unless they are profiting from it. My employer pays nothing towards my CME, license or other similar requirements. I don't mind the test every 10 years, the CME, but I do mind the insane costs associated with it all.

Because my time is important, and I pay for everything myself, I mind the entire process. If we have entered into an era of inclusivity, then all peoples' priorities need to be addressed. The option to pay, the option to do montly self-assessment quizes, the option to take an exam every 10 years.

 

[Mocaman]

I feel like the supposed shortage of addiction providers is really just a shortage of buprenorphine providers. If addiction does not equal purely Suboxone, then yeah jobs aren't so plentiful. Why am I taking this test?

U hit the nail on the head.

 

[whopper]

The problems with doctors is unlike lawyers they don't fight for themselves. It's not cost effective to do so while with lawyers if they fight and win they get money as part of the deal. We don't.

 

[cookymonster]

If this doesn't make you join NBPAS, not sure what will.

 

[vistaril]

what these idot admins do is outright fraud and despicable behavior. If I ever have a conversation with one personally I will tell them they they are ****ing pond scum who deserve to burn in hell.